Bernie Sanders says liberals shouldnt trust Democrats

[comradebillyboy]

http://www.rawstory.com/2017/07/bernie-sanders-says-liberals-shouldnt-trust-democrats/?comments=disqus

"Even though the Democratic Party apparently has moved toward the left following the election of President Donald Trump, Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders has a warning for progressives.

“Do not underestimate the resistance of the Democratic establishment,” Sanders told The New Yorker."

[kimbutgar]

1. This is why I no longer support him

I threw away my Bernie shirt didn't even save it for a rag.

[Ezior]

13. Same :-/ I like his platform. His tactics cause things like a Trump presidency though.

There's enough hate against the Democratic party already. Hint: You (almost) can't implement liberal policies without winning elections for the Dem party... So stop bashing them. Present your ideas, try to win primaries, great! But just stop bashing them, Bernie. Please. This is a two-party system.

[sandensea]

20. He didn't say that (it's FAKE News).

Neither the Raw Story writer, nor the one for the New Yorker piece quoted in the Raw Story, contains any such quotes from Bernie Sanders.

[bettyellen]

29. What was the quote about lies then? I'd love to see that in context.

[sandensea]

31. It's in the Raw Story writer's imagination.

And therefore Fake News.

[bettyellen]

33. The story quoted two interviews- Newsweek and the New Yorker. Are you claiming the direct quote ...

Attributed is not in either interview? Are you saying they faked it?

[sandensea]

36. Yes, because it doesn't appear even once in either the Newsweek or New Yorker piece.

Judging from the comments section, and to some degree here on DU as well, it did have the intended result of sowing divisions among Democrats.

A lie goes round the world...

[bettyellen]

45. It does appear- but it's about Trump, so I agree the Rawstory article is misleading

[sandensea]

58. This was, as our friend Cheeto might put it, Fake News.

It sounds like a Republican op-ed flunky trying his damndest to divide Democrats. Hardly a rare breed.

Frankly, Comradebillyboy should take this thread down. Not up to me though.

[Ninsianna]

131. This something Cheeto says about things he doesn't like about himself.

Republican flunkies do enjoy denying plain facts to divide Dems. They're not a rare breed and they do like to invade Democratic forums like this one to spread that propaganda, they just do not usually do it so blatantly.

[pnwmom]

99. Not true. You overlooked it. n/t

[pnwmom]

98. It's in the New Yorker story Raw story quoted. Why didn't you read it? It's right here:

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/08/07/bernie-sanders-campaign-isnt-over

Since the election, the Democratic Party has tried to move closer to Sanders’s views. Last week, in a small town in northern Virginia, Chuck Schumer, the Senate Minority Leader, announced the Party’s platform for 2018, “A Better Deal,” which is aimed at winning back working-class voters. The platform includes a fifteen-dollar minimum wage and a trillion-dollar investment in infrastructure, plans that Sanders has long promoted, often with little support. Many people in the Democratic Party believe that, when it comes to policy, Sanders has prevailed. Sanders does not see it that way. He told me, “Do not underestimate the resistance of the Democratic establishment.”

[KPN]

110. Not the same thing -- though I can see

how some might interpret the quote in the story to mean the exact same thing. The Newsweek/Raw Story article put words in Bernie's mouth and then added a provocative title to get your exact reaction.

The Newsweek/Raw Story article was intended to divide.

[pnwmom]

114. They didn't put the words in his mouth -- he said not to underestimate the resistance

of the Democratic party, and they quoted him on that.

They did paraphrase what he said for the title, but they got his meaning right. In context, he was saying that the Dems had adopted his policy positions, but not to underestimate their resistance -- in other words, not to trust them.

[KPN]

120. Well, we disagree. Bernie expressed his observation. He didn't say don't trust

the Democratic Party. He didn't even say the Democratic Party -- he said the Democratic establishment. All establishments resist change agents/agendas. It's natural. I'm surprised anyone would expect anything different.

Clearly, the article intended to create division. And the original article used one quote without any context, other than the author's characterization of stuff in the past.

[pnwmom]

122. I would have thought that people would have learned by now

that attacking the "establishment" -- like Trump has advocated -- isn't necessarily a good thing.

We are better off with our 200 year old institutions than without them.

[KPN]

171. I don't see the establishment as a 200 year old institution. You are right, we are better off --

by far I should add -- with that intact. The economically center right component of the Democratic Party is not a 200 year old institution. It's wonderful that the Democratic Party carries the mantel for social justice, but dropping back on economic justice at the same time was a bad trade-off for which we have paid dearly. There's no reason -- NONE -- that we can't stand proud and strong for both.

[Ninsianna]

125. It would seem that the "Raw Story Writer" is the one who is imaginary, since

clicking on the article showed you the the Newsweek piece was posted with permission. Thus the "fake news" here is the reflexive attacks on real news and real characterization of something that Senator Sanders has said, of a viewpoint that he has a history of promulgating.

The "fake news" once again is coming from the ones who hear things they don't like, it's not fake at all.

[KPN]

108. Easy -- google Bernie Sanders New Yorker and look for the Aug 8, 2017 magazine link.

Bernie did not say that. Though he did say the thing about not underestimating resistance by the establishment. I suppose one could sat that's the same, but didn't quite come across that way in context of the New Yorker article.

[DanTex]

72. Yes he did.

From the New Yorker article:

Since the election, the Democratic Party has tried to move closer to Sanders’s views. Last week, in a small town in northern Virginia, Chuck Schumer, the Senate Minority Leader, announced the Party’s platform for 2018, “A Better Deal,” which is aimed at winning back working-class voters. The platform includes a fifteen-dollar minimum wage and a trillion-dollar investment in infrastructure, plans that Sanders has long promoted, often with little support. Many people in the Democratic Party believe that, when it comes to policy, Sanders has prevailed. Sanders does not see it that way. He told me, “Do not underestimate the resistance of the Democratic establishment.”

[sandensea]

75. There's no "liberals shouldn't trust Democrats" anywhere in your excerpt

He takes a swipe at the Democratic establishment - but that's hardly unusual, or a call for liberals to break from the Democratic Party.

[DanTex]

79. There aren't quotes around that in the title of the OP. That's not a quote.

The quote that is given in the OP is real. Bernie actually said that. The title of the OP is a paraphrasing of his comments in the New Yorker article. And it is an accurate paraphrasing.

[sandensea]

82. It's not accurate paraphrasing.

No one can reasonably interpret "do not underestimate the resistance of the Democratic establishment" as "liberals shouldn't trust Democrats."

I'm surprised you'd think so, DanTex.

[DanTex]

83. Of course it is.

It's a warning to his followers that the Democratic establishment can't be trusted to push forward the policies Bernie wants. What else could he possibly be saying?

[sandensea]

85. Criticizing the Democratic establishment is not tantamount to asking liberals to shun Democrats

That's the kind of verticalist thinking our Republican friends often fall into. The Democratic Party leadership has received plenty of criticism from staunch Democrats themselves - and there's nothing wrong or disloyal about that.

[DanTex]

88. Nobody claimed he asked liberals to shun Democrats, "shun" is your word.

But he did imply, quite clearly, that he doesn't think that the Democratic Party can be trusted to carry out his progressive agenda. Like I said, what else could that comment about "resistance" possibly mean?

[sandensea]

90. "Liberals shouldn't trust Democrats" as a headline?

That's exactly what the Raw Story writer wanted to convey.

[KPN]

112. Maybe it means they adopted some or a lot of his agenda after much resistance.

Just saying.

When you see the worst, you get the worst usually.

[xajj4791]

157. he is saying...

That just because the democrats are supporting some of his ideas that it does not mean they believe in the underlying ideals and likely adjusted throws position to win votes. As such, they should keep an eye out for their goals to be subverted, not by Ill will but by a lack of understanding and acceptance of ideals.

[The Wielding Truth]

178. Well, do we have single payer? Are they pushing enough?Are they reaching the Bernie crowd?Let's look

at this with a critical eye. We are Democrats and we must listen to all of our liberal side. Bernie is where our Party establishment used to be before the right pulled us over to them. Just sayin'. Let's consider their point of view without thinking there is intent to undermine our Democratic Party.

[pnwmom]

100. Yes it is, in the context of the whole paragraph.

The reporter says the Dems have tried to move closer to Sanders' views, and that many believe Sanders has prevailed in policy. And his response was, "Don't underestimate the resistance of the Democratic establishment." IOW, they're resisting even though his views have prevailed. IOW, don't trust them.


http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/08/07/bernie-sanders-campaign-isnt-over

Since the election, the Democratic Party has tried to move closer to Sanders’s views. Last week, in a small town in northern Virginia, Chuck Schumer, the Senate Minority Leader, announced the Party’s platform for 2018, “A Better Deal,” which is aimed at winning back working-class voters. The platform includes a fifteen-dollar minimum wage and a trillion-dollar investment in infrastructure, plans that Sanders has long promoted, often with little support. Many people in the Democratic Party believe that, when it comes to policy, Sanders has prevailed. Sanders does not see it that way. He told me, “Do not underestimate the resistance of the Democratic establishment.”

[trof]

106. I'm with you. Bad headline.

[samnsara]

66. i never liked him even years ago. just another angry white guy telling me what to do..

[aikoaiko]

102. What did he tell you to do?

[beam me up scottie]

104. Bernie turned me into a newt!

*again this is sarcasm, no newts is good newts

[aikoaiko]

105. you make me laugh out loud, literally.

I'm glad you're back.

[beam me up scottie]

107. Thanks! You're the second person to tell me that today.

[mr_lebowski]

176. Quote like that should always be followed up with ... "Wuh ... I got BETTER!" (nt)

[Stargazer99]

101. I for one of the common folk can see what Bernie is talking about

Power and money has established itself in the Democratic party. Maybe not as much as the Republican party but it is there.
When Nancy said she thought we are not ready for single payer, it really turned me off
When Washington states rep Murray and the other one voted against letting people buy Canadian RX that really made me set against them. Their excuse was concern about the safety of RX in Canada. Come on now Canada would not be watching out for its citizens
This country smells like rotten fish when it comes to our government

[NurseJackie]

2. Jesus.

[sandensea]

41. More like Holy Machiavelli.

Because the quote is completely fabricated. It doesn't show up even once in either article quoted in the piece.

[NurseJackie]

43. Who said the headline was a quote? I didn't see any quote marks in the headline. Did you?

His meaning is clear and the headline captures its essence.

Splitting of hairs won't change that.

[sandensea]

50. Bernie Sanders says...

With a headline like that, a direct quote - or something very close to that - had better follow.

There's nothing like that in either piece.

[NurseJackie]

95. This kind of nitpicking and hair-splitting doesn't make for a good defense. His meaning is clear...

... and the headline does not deviate from that meaning. I hear what you're saying, but it's not working. The headline isn't a legal document and this isn't evidence in a court. You can argue "well, he never said those exact words, in that exact order" until the cows come home... but it won't change the meaning and intent of what he actually did say.

[Ninsianna]

129. Instead there all those words that say pretty much that.

Might want to read all the words, with a calm mind and with glasses. There is something like that is Sen. Sanders message over the decades and it's pointless to pretend otherwise.

[R B Garr]

46. The quote in the OP is definitely in the article. nt

[sandensea]

52. Where?

I read and control-F'd both pieces, and there's nothing even close to that.

He did say that Trump lied to his voters though.

[MrsCoffee]

3. Moulitsas is right. The pretend "Unity Tour" has made a mockery of the party and divided us

even more.

Bummer.

[mac56]

4. I don't think the headline matches

the text of the article.

[comradebillyboy]

9. The headline I used is the RAW STORY headline.

The comment itself comes from a quote in the lengthy New Yorker article that Raw Story references and links to.

[KPN]

113. Neither do I. And it certainly doesn't

match the tone of the original piece in this week's New Yorker magazine.

[Phoenix61]

5. He just can't help himself can he.

I like Bernie but the dem bashing got old a while back.

[sandensea]

70. Sometimes, maybe - but he didn't say that.

Raw Story fabricated the quote outright.

[gratuitous]

6. Thank you for your concern

It shall be duly noted.

[LanternWaste]

15. Noted with no more and no less fanfare than its immediate dismissal and trivialization.

Noted with no more and no less fanfare than its immediate dismissal and trivialization.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other... though our sacred cows often compel us to rationalize a distinction lacking any relevant difference.

[NightWatcher]

7. Using a populist to undercut the Party. Where have I seen this before?

Bernie's not a Democrat. He was briefly, when it suited him.

[Flying Squirrel]

153. It suited quite a few of us

for him to be a Democrat, too.

[sandensea]

8. The writer seems to be putting words in his mouth.

The article itself doesn't quote Bernie Sanders actually saying that.

[demmiblue]

12. This is like The Hill/Nancy Pelosi crap. n/t

[sandensea]

16. Exactly.

Lots of journalistic license out there.

This is why nothing can really replace primary sources - the horse's mouth. Reading it second hand can often lead to real - and often very deliberate - misconceptions.

[comradebillyboy]

14. The comment itself comes from a quote in

the lengthy New Yorker article that Raw Story references and links to.

[sandensea]

18. It's not quoted in the New Yorker article either.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

53. It's Raw Story; expect nothing more.

[sandensea]

55. Apparently so.

Did Karl Rove buy them out or something?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

57. They've been crap since day one, spinning actual journalism for clicks.

[sandensea]

61. I see.

Fake News has become quite an industry.

[Ninsianna]

134. It's Newsweek, referencing the New Yorker.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

10. He didn't say liberals "shouldn't trust Democrats."

He said progressives shouldn't underestimate the resistance of the party establishment - very different thing from saying not to trust the party. Establishments never want to change (that's why they are called "establishments&quot . He is pointing out that they will resist change. Whether the party needs to be changed or is resisting change is an issue that bears consideration. But Raw Story's headline is not an accurate description of Sanders' position.

[bettyellen]

17. It's quoting two different sources so it's hard to say- but the part where he says they "lied" needs

More clarity for sure. It sounds like he's saying Dems have never tried to make good policy? I'd like to see the rest of that. It's bizarre since they are 90% aligned on policy issues and the differences are more a matter of degree than direction.

[KTM]

146. He did not say "they" lied. Its already very clear.

He was referring to Trump.

One reason Trump was elected was because he saw that the Democratic Party had ignored millions of voters, Sanders told The New Yorker.

“He said, ‘Hey, I hear you. I’m going to do something for you.’ And he lied,” Sanders said.

[bettyellen]

149. The Raw story edits it to cut out the reference to Trump... so that sucks.

And was not at all clear.

[KTM]

156. No, it doesn't.

That quote I just pasted was from The Raw Story's page. Their headline is misleading clickbait crap, but if you read the actual article, it's in there.

[bettyellen]

161. You're right, the New Yorker included it all in one paragraph so it's easier to read ....

The Raw Story version is like cut up snippets, and yes I missed that they referred to Trump in an earlier paragraph. But I didn't rush to judge on it! I know what's up- LOL - divisive crap, all day long

[demmiblue]

11. Thanks for your concern, comrade. n/t

[NurseJackie]

24. Preach!

[Raastan]

37. K + R

[Eliot Rosewater]

64. I cant say that but am glad you did.

No, I wont be happy when my suspicion of him and Thom is proven, and it will be, but all too late.

[beam me up scottie]

89. Say what?

Last edited Mon Jul 31, 2017, 03:53 PM - Edit history (1)

And what suspicion? Is this about him being a sooper seeecret Russian spy again?







*This is sarcasm. I don't actually think Bernie is a sooper seeecret Russian spy, that sounds like something Alex Jones would say. Also potato cat could be American for all we know. Don't judge the kitty.

[R B Garr]

103. Thom does work on that Russian TV station. If you're on Russian TV, does that

mean you work for the Russians? It sure seems that way. One of the many reasons Thom is just not primetime material.

[Eliot Rosewater]

109. Well, were I to comment I would get in trouble, but trust me, the best way

to divert attention from russian agents is to mock the very idea they exist.

[R B Garr]

136. Yes, and that Russian TV Thom guy and Bernie host sure does

like the Russian propaganda. I wonder if any other U.S. Senators go on Russian TV. I haven't paid attention, but it is a weird association. I don't listen to Thom, but what I've been exposed to makes me roll my eyes at the sheer simplicity and blatant propaganda. When someone gave me a link to his Russia TV show, I laughed out loud at the thought of tuning in to Russia TV, lol.

[itcfish]

21. At This Point and

with everything going on in the WH, Bernie should just shut-up. What's wrong with him? Didn't he do enough damage? I was a big Bernie supporter in the beginning but now I am losing all respect for him.

[Flying Squirrel]

150. Bernie didn't do any damage.

He got a lot of people excited about politics again (many for the first time) and about the Democratic Party. He then supported Hillary 100% and asked his supporters to vote for her. He had a right to run, and nobody can possibly prove that the outcome would have been any different if he hadn't.

[itcfish]

169. I said I was

a Bernie supporter, but he did hurt the democratic party, especially since he was not a democrat. Now he should just work to get Trump out of power and focus on that until 2020 if he decides to run again.

[LexVegas]

22. Who?

[Docreed2003]

23. I'd prefer to read the whole quote in context...

I think we've seen proof enough here in the last 24 hrs first with Pelosi and now with Sanders that quotes can and often are taken out of context, and in some cases intentionally so in an attempt to divide. If anyone doubts that, go search for the "outrage" some had over Pelosi's out of context quote...the anti-Pelosi, "we need a leadership change" was all over that, now with this, the folks who despise Bernie are all over this one. Color me cynical, but it seems a little convenient, especially on the heels of our recent win in pushing back against repeal of the ACA.

[all american girl]

25. Bernie, I will believe the Demacratic establishment

They are the women, women of color and men of color...see, white guys are the only ones who can get ahead without the "establishment" and rail against it. I'm so done with Bernie. I need him to realize that it's not about white dudes, but all the rest of us...

I'm just so frustrated by him throwing everyone under the bus to suit his definition of what "left" is. We are a big, big tent and he seems to making smaller and smaller.

[brush]

96. You'd think by now he'd learn to stay away from attacking Democrats

The one big reason he lost the primaries.

It's counterproductive and divisive. Is that his aim?

Attack trump for God's sake. He give us enough ammo to bash him continually.

What's that definition of insanity — keep doing the same thing over and over...

[lunamagica]

139. Hear! Hear!

[Flying Squirrel]

154. Still attacking with the same old lines about white guys?

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Why we have this rule: Our forum members support and admire a wide variety of Democratic politicians and public figures. Constructive criticism is always welcome, but our members don't expect to see Democrats viciously denigrated on this website. This rule also applies to Independents who align themselves with Democrats (eg: Bernie Sanders).

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Why we have this rule: Most of our members want this to be forward-looking, friendly community that is focused on creating a better future for our country. Continuing to rehash old fights that have already been resolved is divisive and counter-productive.

[aikoaiko]

26. I stand with Bernie Sanders

Because I do not underestimate the resistance of the Democratic establishment, either.

The regression to the center is a constant pull on our party.

RawStory is trolling those with Bernie issues with that headline.

[VermontKevin]

28. The Democratic Establishment is women and PoC.

[aikoaiko]

34. and white men, too. Now that we've covered some basic demographics...

Last edited Mon Jul 31, 2017, 02:46 PM - Edit history (1)

...lets talk about the content of Bernie's quote.

Do you not agree that in the recent past our party slid to the center and only recently with this latest platform is the most progressive we've seen in 30 years?

It would be easy to slide to the center again.

I stand with Bernie.

[VermontKevin]

39. I can't make heads or tails of your question.

I am going to assume you meant "white men." I'm pretty good with white men not being the establishment of the Democratic Party any longer. We had a good run.

[aikoaiko]

78. Sorry Kevin, but White men are still part of the Democratic Party establishment

But I'm glad it's balanced better than in the past.


ETA I tried to fix up my precious post

[VermontKevin]

92. Only those of us who chose to leave aren't still welcomed. But I'm glad that the Democratic

Party's establishment looks more like my daughters and granddaughters. It's a good thing.

[disillusioned73]

80. Agreed..

the "resistance" against single payer for instance..

[KPN]

115. With you on that.

And, yes, this is FAKE news designed to create division.

[Demsrule86]

167. When we had elected centrist in red states, we were in the majority. do you think it is

better to be pure and in the minority constantly playing defense? We may stop some of the GOP agenda but we won't stop it all. And we can do nothing about the courts. The only vehicle for progressive achievement is the Democratic Party and undermining it means you also undermine any chance of getting progressive friendly policy enacted. Every time, Democrats must fight the left as well as the right, we lose so I do not stand with Bernie on this, and I will not vote for him in a 2020 primary. Words matter in the fight against the evil that is modern conservatism. Millions of lives are at stake.

[aikoaiko]

168. So what part of the current platform would you like to see move toward Republicans or the center?

Bernie is talking about backsliding from our leadership and not specific congressional or senate races.

So what part?

No one is pure in politics, but some are better than others. Take that false choice and pander elsewhere.

[Demsrule86]

183. We don't need to change the platform and Sen. Sanders has supported to pro-life candidates...

Mello and Perriello. And honestly, I am less and less interested in what Sen. Sanders has to say...he talks about the Dem centrists but doesn't even mention Republican opposition. Does he think the GOP will be for single payer and that only Democrats stand in the way?

[aikoaiko]

184. Bernie has much harsher criticisms of Republicans than Democrats.

I'm surprised you don't acknowledge that.

Im sure he doesn't think the RW is amenable to single payer. He expects more of Democrats. Me too.

[VermontKevin]

27. The Democratic Establishment is women and PoC.

[KPN]

116. Really? Care to elaborate?

[VermontKevin]

117. Go to a local Dem meeting, and I won't have to.

[KPN]

121. I do. Central Committee member.

I'm in a rural area. Not many people of color (less than 5-10%). Meetings are usually pretty evenly split male and female.

[bettyellen]

130. How bad did Dems lose there? I bet you guys have a lot of work to do!

[KPN]

170. Well, we lost the presidential GE. But ...

we won the House district, no senate races this past election (though both are Dems- Oregon), and State legislator and Senator ... so all in all, we did pretty damned well I'd say. We are fortunate ... we have some good people who are well known and liked in the local communities as well as a great group of party members. We have some great women, but alaso some great men in our organization.

[bettyellen]

173. So an Oregon district that went for Trump? All in all... that's a problem, not an example for us.

Every action I go to, read about or see pics of its 65/75% women. So strange to hear about anomalies. But then again I quit meetings a long time ago and in favor of just doing.

[KPN]

186. No, it wasn't a district, it was a County.

The District is made up of parts or all of about 7 counties. Hillary carried the District easily, as did the Democratic HR candidate. Not sure what you mean by every action. I was talking about County Democratic Central Committee meetings -- as I said, attendance is pretty evenly split gender-wise.

[Jim Lane]

163. So Gabbard and Ellison are Establishment, and Manchin is not?

No sensible person can deny that there's an ideological divide within the Democratic Party. (Well, more than one, actually, but the major one is along left-right lines, with the party Establishment being on the more conservative side.)

Bernie's actual statement, as opposed to the lying headline, is simply a reminder that the Establishment side is strong. He doesn't say not to trust them. He doesn't even deny that they have the right to pursue their views, just as progressives have a right to pursue theirs.

In short, there was nothing exceptional about his statement -- until the shit-stirrers at RawStory decided that clicks were more important than truth.

[Caliman73]

30. My 2 cents..

I supported Sanders in the primary. I do think that in some ways, the Democratic party has been complacent and has tinkered around the edges of policy rather than going boldly into a committed idea of what the party stands for and what they plan to do in terms of policy. That said, I strongly disagree with how Sanders and his Revolution are trying to strong arm the Democratic party. Sanders lost the primary but he was able to influence the party platform which is a good thing. Instead of excoriating the "establishment" Sanders needs to coordinate with Perez and others in leadership about what message Democrats need to be putting out there. The message should be positive, What are Democrats going to do with control of the levers of government? How are they going to try to get their goals accomplished?

We need to stop just saying, "The top 0.1% ..." and "Wall Street..." We need to stop just redefining the problem and focus on good, simple, policy solutions that can be explained to the electorate. This continued fighting among ourselves is not going to lead to any kind of positive outcome.

[sandensea]

38. The Raw Story made this up.

Read the story carefully, as well as the New Yorker piece.

Karl Rove would be proud.

[Ninsianna]

127. They didn't. Karl Rove would be proud, repeating a lie over and over is something

that he and other propagandists before and after have used as a tactic.

Reading the story for comprehension, both the newsweek piece reprinted with permission on Raw Story and the New Yorker piece support the headline. Attacking Raw Story and lying about what was said about a point that Senator Sanders has made repeatedly over the decades is rather Rovian, with a modern Trumpism of "Fake News" thrown in to really drive home the nature of the reflexive reaction to news ones does not like.

[NurseJackie]

44. Many feel as you do.

[ROYDOG999]

35. Yep He's right

http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/344196-dem-campaign-chief-vows-no-litmus-test-on-abortion

[leftstreet]

40. !

Nicely played!

[R B Garr]

42. NPR: Bernie Sanders defends campaigning for anti-abortion rights Democrat.

http://www.npr.org/2017/04/20/524962482/sanders-defends-campaigning-for-anti-abortion-rights-democrat

"Sanders pushed back against the criticism. "The truth is that in some conservative states there will be candidates that are popular candidates who may not agree with me on every issue. I understand it. That's what politics is about," Sanders told NPR."

[alarimer]

65. That's going to drive the no-purity-test brigade crazy.

Apparently they all have to be pro-choice, but economic populism is just a "purity test". The issue is whether, in a given race, who best represents their constituency. But I don't think they need to be recruiting conservative Democrats in the first place. The more progressive, the better. And usually that includes being pro-choice. Being anti-choice usually comes with other conservative or middle-of-the-road issues which I don't like.

We are always urged to vote Dem because they are "better than the other guy" (and it is in fact usually true), yet somehow this is the straw the breaks the camel's back. What about Bob Casey? Does he get thrown under the bus? Would it be better for PA to have a Republican Senator in his place? Probably not, on balance.

[haele]

48. Liberal does not equal Democratic Socialist. And the Democratic Party is a coalition...

not an Establishment. Now, you can talk about Democratic Money, but that's different than a Democratic Establishment, because donors to the Democratic party are not lockstep in the reasons for their funding. The Democratic platform is wide ranging, and diverse in core values.

Democratic socialism is an economic ideology that advocates political democracy alongside social ownership of the means of production, often with an emphasis on democratic management of enterprises within a Socialist economic system.

A Social Democracy is a socialist government achieved by Democratic means.

So Sen. Sanders is going to be focused on Socialist platforms - workplace, economics, finances. He's not going to be as concerned about the societal balance between gender, race, religion, environment, health, education, rural/urban issues, and public safety - because while there might be some overlap in the influences these issues have within his self-admitted SOCIALIST ECONOMIC FOCUS, they are only seen as economic components to be balanced, not personal interests or governance components.

Civil Rights is important to a Democratic Socialist insofar as it affects the social ownership of the means of production. Environmentalism, likewise.
As for Environmentalism or Civil Rights as a straight up "Bleeding Heart Hippy Liberal" issue - as in social or legal/regulatory functions are not as important to him as the economic impact to the social ownership or management of a resource or enterprise.

And that's where the Democratic Coalition separates from Bernie Sanders. I'm not saying he's all wrong...he's basically a Trotskyite. And so, he's not as concerned about some Liberal issues as he is others.

To reiterate - there is no Democratic Establishment. There's a Democratic Coalition, and several different spokespeople for the party depending on what is being discussed.
The pushback Sen. Sanders (along with the "Bernie Bro's" and Limousine Liberals) is feeling is that which results whenever someone who lives for their agenda tries to force the Coalition to become an Establishment - to push their particular "vision" on how the U.S. is going to be on everyone else instead of negotiating priorities.

"Bow Down and follow us" is what the Republican Party pushes.

On 2nd edit - There's a place for Sen. Sanders and his Democratic Socialist movement in the Democratic Coalition. In fact, a good half the coalition is nominally Democratic Socialist (except, of course, for the trust fund babies and people who forgot how hard it is to be well off).
Unfortunately, since this country is set up for a two-party political system instead of a parliamentary system, Sen. Sanders (or any independent or ideologically more strict representative) does not have the power to dictate the way the party goes.
He has to take his place at the table like everyone else does if he wants any say or power.

Haele

[Hekate]

86. Haele, thank you so much for this cogent explanation of competing political philosophies...

....across the Democratic Coalition spectrum. I wish your post could be pinned. I wish it could be required reading.

Hekate

[KPN]

118. Nyet!

Democratic Socialism doesn't equate with government ownership of means of production. Now pure socialism, yes, that's part of the classic definition. But not "democratic socialism".

[haele]

144. You read something I didn't write...maybe I should clarify.

Democratic socialism is an economic ideology that advocates political democracy alongside social ownership of the means of production, often with an emphasis on democratic management of enterprises within a Socialist economic system.

Yes, it's paraphrased from Wikipedia.
But it's also a good description of the way the more public segments of the economy is handled in many of the European states.
I think the term "emphasis on democratic management of enterprises within a Socialist economic system" is what threw you.

Or perhaps your disagreement comes from the fact I facetiously used the term "Trotskyite" with Bernie.
A Trotskyite tends to run closer to pure socialism; even Sweden and Finland aren't full on Trotsky...they're sort of soft Trotskiates And from his actions, Boris Johnson is lying to himself if he calls himself one.

But y'know, looking at this from a general economic standpoint, I've often found myself to be in agreement with the Trotskyite position myself on occasion in specific sectors (i.e. the commons), so I'm very familiar about how Democratic Socialism works in practice, as well as theory.

Haele

[KPN]

172. Thanks for the clarification. But that's really not what triggered me --

it was the ownership of the means of production. That's pure socialism. Bernie as you know does not support or propose that, so when I see a statement that could be interpreted as such, I feel like a correction is needed.

[Jim Lane]

164. You're attacking a straw man in characterizing Bernie's attitude

Unfortunately, you're not alone. This happens over and over on DU. Step one is that Bernie or another progressive states a policy position or comments on an ongoing dispute. Step two is that the critics swarm all over an imagined "demand" that everyone must conform.

Yes, I know, there was one guy who did say "Bow down." And there was at least one person who, during the primary, made an anti-Semitic attack on Bernie. Neither of these outliers should be taken as representing everyone on their side.

You write:

The pushback Sen. Sanders (along with the "Bernie Bro's" and Limousine Liberals) is feeling is that which results whenever someone who lives for their agenda tries to force the Coalition to become an Establishment - to push their particular "vision" on how the U.S. is going to be on everyone else instead of negotiating priorities.

"Bow Down and follow us" is what the Republican Party pushes.

On 2nd edit - There's a place for Sen. Sanders and his Democratic Socialist movement in the Democratic Coalition. In fact, a good half the coalition is nominally Democratic Socialist (except, of course, for the trust fund babies and people who forgot how hard it is to be well off).
Unfortunately, since this country is set up for a two-party political system instead of a parliamentary system, Sen. Sanders (or any independent or ideologically more strict representative) does not have the power to dictate the way the party goes.
He has to take his place at the table like everyone else does if he wants any say or power.

Bernie is most emphatically not saying "Bow Down and follow us." If that were his attitude, he wouldn't have ticked off many of his supporters by endorsing Hillary Clinton in the general election, despite their many policy differences.

It's true that he's pushing his particular vision. Many other people are pushing theirs. Pushing a vision is not the same as demanding "the power to dictate the way the party goes."

BTW, although you're right that there's a Democratic coalition, it's also true that there's a Democratic Party establishment. There has to be. The DNC can issue press releases in the name of the national Democratic Party, and I can't. To take another example, somebody made the decision that there would be only six debates last cycle. Whether you support or oppose that restriction, you must admit that it wasn't the result of a nationwide one-person-one-vote referendum.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

187. Great points.

[alarimer]

49. He's right.

Again.

Look at the "better deal" for starters, same old "job retraining" for tax credits bullshit that has never worked (except to enrich corporations at taxpayer expense).

[SalviaBlue]

51. Fuck Fake News

[George II]

54. More Democratic bashing by him. It's getting to be a routine thing for him.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

56. I'm no Bernie fan, but this Raw Story headline purposefully confuses the issue.

I'll be glad when people stop using it as a source and instead click through to the actual journalism it rips ff and spins.

[Purveyor]

179. Hear, hear! eom

[Skidmore]

180. Yes.

Raw Story is not a good stand alone source.

[Arazi]

59. Not what he said but don't let facts get in the way of a good DU Bernie ragefest

[sandensea]

67. Bingo.

Whoever posted this to raw Story must be a Karl Rove flunky.

They want nothing more than Democratic infighting, and will gladly resort to fake quotes to get it.

[riderinthestorm]

71. Yup, it's like some people are deliberately posting made up shit to divide us nt

[Paladin]

60. Thanks for nothing, Bernie. (nt)

[sandensea]

63. Raw Story fabricated the quote.

Read the text - and the New Yorker link - carefully.

[oberliner]

62. At not point in the article does Bernie Sanders say that liberals shouldn't trust Democrats

Headline is a lie.

Typical click bait garbage from Raw Story (taking someone else's reporting, giving it a ridiculous title, etc.)

[sandensea]

68. Exactly.

Comradebillyboy should take this down, frankly.

[WomanWhoRoars]

69. Hey...

I like Bernie but he needs to hush up and work to unite us all

[Lil Missy]

73. Another reason for never taking him seriously ... ever

[sandensea]

77. Raw Story fabricated the quote.

[R B Garr]

137. You've been linked to the quote several times. The quote is there.

You are trying to conflate something else so you can pretend it's fake news, but the quote in the OP is in the article.

[sandensea]

145. And lo and behold, the quote isn't in ANY of those links.

Overactive imaginations on the part of some; utter bad faith, on others'.

[R B Garr]

148. You have been linked to it, and it's the same one in the OP.

[YCHDT]

74. #### PLEASE UPDATE TITLE TO SANDERS EXACT WORDS !!!! #####

[sandensea]

76. Or better yet, trash the thread.

It's up to Comradebillyboy, of course. But I do hope he'll realize he's posting fake news deliberately designed to drive a wedge among Democrats.

Hardly appropriate for DU.

[populistdriven]

111. misquote at best please fix

[Weekend Warrior]

81. If one goes raw with the story.....

They might just wake up having caught something.

[SHRED]

84. No he didn't.

[MuseRider]

87. ANY establishment is resistant to change.

So much hatred here that we can no longer read and think about what was actually said. It makes me very sad. We are turning into them.

THINK and read and then think some more rather than just running over here and blasting a bunch of misinterpreted (intentionally or stupidly) crap stirring people up.

Establishment is establishment because it likes things just the way they are. Of COURSE it is resistant. Bernie also has his own thoughts that have been with him for years and those are his establishments and they are resistant to change as well. GOOD GRIEF people.

[EllieBC]

91. Well I don't trust

many so called liberals as they've been letting their antisemitic flags fly lately. So I guess I have no one to trust. Not exactly an unusual position to be on.

[beam me up scottie]

94. He didn't say that but I agree with you about the anti-Semitism.

When Bernie is called a Bolshevik it's obvious we haven't evolved as much as we'd like to think.

We need to stick together now more than ever and ignore fake headlines from Raw Story. It's not the ops fault, it's RS.

[Behind the Aegis]

123. I missed the post to which you replied.

Sum it up for me? You know what word got my attention (PM if need be).

I also find this BS fake news funny, especially since there are at least 4 threads now, one which actually starts "Fuck the DCCC!", which are about not taking shit from the "establishment", especially in regards to women's rights. Of course, we know there are those who would gleefully elect a homophobic, transphobic racist if the correct alphabetic designation is there.

[beam me up scottie]

124. I'll pm you.

You know why.

And yes, the disconnect still amazes me after all these years.

[beam me up scottie]

93. Lulz. Is it fake news day again so soon?

When are people going to stop being outraged over click bait headlines? Every time Raw Story, Politico or the Hill does this we go to DEFCON 4.

Jeez people, can we have one day without getting played by the media who's interested in pitting us against each other because it's good for business ?

[nycbos]

97. Hey Bernie

This liberal has been a loyal Dem ever since in campaigned on the streets of Manhattan when his was 12 for Bill Bradley.


I nearby revoke your New Yorker credentials.

[KPN]

119. FAKE News. Fake headline.

Not to mention, Bernie is absolutely right about not underestimating resistance of the D establishment. That's a truism for any change. The status quo, the establishment always resists. Big deal -- he expressed what he observed. We all do that all the time.

Don't fall prey to troll journalists fueling division folks.

[Tarheel_Dem]

126. I wish BS could get past the fact that Democrats rejected him in huge numbers, and allow the....

rest of us to get past him. I'm beginning to wonder if he doesn't suffer from some of the same tendencies as DT, afterall they are both men of a certain age, temperament and ego.

[lunamagica]

141. Yeah, I've wondered too

[RelativelyJones]

128. Whatever, Bernie. Then get off your ass and form your own party.

[Trumpocalypse]

147. I voted for him the primary last year.

And he has repeatedly disappointed me ever since.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

132. Mr. Purist

Most of us move on to pragmatism as we get older. We realize that change is often incremental and not something that occurs overnight.

[Expecting Rain]

133. Raw Story has the direct quote from the New Yorker story. Not "fake news", but real journalism

Time, in my opinion, to change the TOS.

Hiding posts to protect non-allies who attack the Democratic party should be a thing of the past.

[guillaumeb]

135. You might want to read sandandsea's comments about "fake news" and respond.

Because this sounds like a misrepresentation of what happened.

[DefenseLawyer]

138. Donna Brazile doesn't trust Bernie Sanders

That's pretty funny.

[beachbum bob]

142. sounds like the typical fake news that we were assaulted with for a solid year

[ImpeachTheGOP]

143. He's not wrong. We need to get back to our FDR roots in labor.

We need to stop pretending the corporatization of the party isn't a problem. It has been for thirty years. We need to be the labor party again.

Now before anyone blows a gasket, of course the Democratic Party is far superior to the Republican Party on labor issues but we need to be better and we need to let those workers know that we are superior to the opposition. For whatever reason, many working class voters think we're not.

Holding the leadership accountable to grassroots, working class issues is essential. There's nothing wrong with pointing these things out.

[MFM008]

151. What do you do if your a liberal democrat?

??????????

[ornotna]

152. Fake news headline. And ten here gullible* enough to rec it

Any other takers?



*or willfully spiteful.

[Flying Squirrel]

155. I recommended it

Not because I believed Bernie said the words (he didn't) but because I welcome any discussion of Bernie Sanders on DU, and any opportunity to defend him.

[ornotna]

158. Well, you better get busy

There's a whole lot of opportunity going on in this thread.

[Flying Squirrel]

159. yeah, sandensea's doing a fine job.

I added a few here and there. I see the ridiculous "white guy" trope is still here.

[nini]

162. Democrats can't trust Bernie is more truthful.

He is so tiresome.

[NurseJackie]

175. You're not alone. Many others here have the same feelings and opinions...

... yet for obvious reasons, choose to keep their feelings and opinions private. Thanks for sharing yours.

[nini]

181. Oh I'd bet there's plenty here

I'm gonna speak up every time I see this stuff. It is pisses someone off then so be it.

[Demsrule86]

165. I thank God I don't live in Vermont.

[NurseJackie]

174. I heard that!

[Demsrule86]

182. Hi nurse how goes it? nt

[Jim Lane]

166. This thread has good news and bad news.

I'm glad to see that the lie in the headline was exposed (particular kudos to sandensea for tireless vigilance). I'm also glad to see that even some DUers who've criticized Bernie have had the intellectual integrity to recognize that this particular criticism is bullshit.

OTOH, it's depressing to see how many people fell for the bullshit.

My preview of next week's installment:

News report: Bernie Sanders, after finishing some research in a public library, reshelved the books. Asked why he didn't just pile them on the table for the librarians to reshelve, he said, "We don't need to make them tidy up."

Headline on RawStory or its ilk: "Sanders dumps on public-employee unions; 'We don't need' them, he says"

DU Bernie-bashers: Post misleading story, rec the thread, defy common sense to defend the headline ("The quotation is accurate!&quot , denounce Bernie, feel righteous.

[Trumpocalypse]

185. At this point no one should trust Sanders.