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RandySF

(57,588 posts)
Thu Aug 10, 2017, 06:32 PM Aug 2017

Just a little history lesson for the "Clintons are War Mongers" crowd.

Bill Clinton had a framework for peace in the Korean Penninsula in October, 2000 before Bush/Cheney scrapped it. Please don't ever say there is no difference between a Democrat and a Republican.

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Just a little history lesson for the "Clintons are War Mongers" crowd. (Original Post) RandySF Aug 2017 OP
A vote for Jill Stein was a vote for trump Gothmog Aug 2017 #1
They're two different people. (nt) YoungDemCA Aug 2017 #2
The idiots who were so stupid as to vote for Stein help to elect trump Gothmog Aug 2017 #4
Post removed Post removed Aug 2017 #5
Dude, what are you actually talking about here? ismnotwasm Aug 2017 #7
Don't waste your time. Aristus Aug 2017 #9
Agreed Gothmog Aug 2017 #15
Yeap, still beating her like a dead horse........nt Heartstrings Aug 2017 #68
Hillarys fault that there was a rightwing propaganda and alt right progressive campaign AGAINST Eliot Rosewater Aug 2017 #10
Will anyone who didn't vote for her take responsibility? lunamagica Aug 2017 #11
This! mcar Aug 2017 #22
Would that be a rhetorical question? hay rick Aug 2017 #36
No they won't. They will keep harping about the Clintons forever. leftofcool Aug 2017 #51
Stein was part of the Russian operations to steal this election for trump Gothmog Aug 2017 #14
AFAIC, she can take responsibility for having won by over 3,000,000 votes in spite of voter suppress Hekate Aug 2017 #18
Yeah, you take that and.... Adrahil Aug 2017 #23
i don't know what you would have her do. barbtries Aug 2017 #25
Remember, these are the same idiots who gave us *, which lead to the Iraq invasion. They.... Tarheel_Dem Aug 2017 #41
Yep, they're the same brand of idjit who voted for Nader and gave us Bush. SunSeeker Aug 2017 #45
Stein supported Trump and said Hillary was a war monger. She was clearly there to draw progressive pnwmom Aug 2017 #26
That tweet pisses me off to no end. SunSeeker Aug 2017 #47
It is a metaphor. emulatorloo Aug 2017 #34
Profoundly said. BarbD Aug 2017 #82
+++++++ JHan Aug 2017 #100
Elections, particularly Presidential ones, are a zero sum game JHan Aug 2017 #84
It's turning out to be more of a regressive agenda. Truly sad. George II Aug 2017 #97
You're far too kind on them BainsBane Aug 2017 #98
Yes, but many of the votes for Stein did not go to the Democratic candidate so might as well... George II Aug 2017 #99
Was NK on the neo-con hitlist? ProudLib72 Aug 2017 #3
NK, Iraq and Iran made up Bush's Axis of Evil RandySF Aug 2017 #6
Here is what I was referring to ProudLib72 Aug 2017 #12
Glad you said it, I am not allowed. Eliot Rosewater Aug 2017 #8
Thank you, Thank you, Thank you for this, Randy! lunamagica Aug 2017 #13
And Stein was on Twitter yesterday asking people to call the WH to stop WW3 from happening nt maryellen99 Aug 2017 #16
Trump tweeted a warning about WWlll keithbvadu2 Aug 2017 #28
Someone needs to retweet this exact tweet to Chump. nt July Aug 2017 #35
There really is a Trump tweet that addresses every Trump fuckup. nt SunSeeker Aug 2017 #49
He's Nostra-Dumb-Ass. smirkymonkey Aug 2017 #75
LOL SunSeeker Aug 2017 #83
I told her off xmas74 Aug 2017 #77
Never said such a thing but what a condescending message Blue Ridge Virginia Aug 2017 #17
May I ask why you are taking the OP personally? Has someone been attacking you... Hekate Aug 2017 #19
What are you talking about? How does the OP polarize DU? pnwmom Aug 2017 #27
Whatever leftofcool Aug 2017 #52
I will never forgive what people, including purported leftists, mcar Aug 2017 #20
+1 betsuni Aug 2017 #24
Did to all of us. Did to the entire world. yardwork Aug 2017 #29
Yes mcar Aug 2017 #30
Exactly. nt SunSeeker Aug 2017 #50
Life comes at you something something . . . Tactical Peek Aug 2017 #21
haha yup.... JHan Aug 2017 #85
Idiots, idiots, idiots, idiots, idiots. betsuni Aug 2017 #31
Dear God in Heaven! Can we PLEASE quit fighting last year's election? Stonepounder Aug 2017 #32
I totally agree DeeDeeNY Aug 2017 #42
We're fighting the next one nini Aug 2017 #46
This Hekate Aug 2017 #55
Probably won't work. progressoid Aug 2017 #80
What's with this winning them over crap I always see here. nini Aug 2017 #81
+1 betsuni Aug 2017 #88
OFFS! They are using the same attacks on our current leaders! KitSileya Aug 2017 #70
Yes. Please! FiveGoodMen Aug 2017 #74
This is video of Bill Clinton speaking about North Korea then Bladewire Aug 2017 #33
I would never say there is no difference between a Democrat and a Republic Martin Eden Aug 2017 #37
What they did then might be different xmas74 Aug 2017 #78
DU was full of Friday night quarterbacks in 2002 Martin Eden Aug 2017 #96
On the subject of North Korea shadowmayor Aug 2017 #38
What you said!!! Ford_Prefect Aug 2017 #40
Thank you for that informed post. yardwork Aug 2017 #44
Yet that BushAdmin sort of behavior RWers admire. Dark n Stormy Knight Aug 2017 #65
Oh, and to change the topic a little bit not fooled Aug 2017 #39
He'll, Rs in Congress sent Iran a letter Cosmocat Aug 2017 #73
Oh those pesky little facts Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Aug 2017 #43
Clinton obsession is embarrassing. that's all they got. spanone Aug 2017 #48
In the 2008 primaries Obama used Hillary Clinton's support for the Iraq war and the Kyl-Lieberman lutherj Aug 2017 #53
No, she isn't. ismnotwasm Aug 2017 #56
The Salon article references a NY Times articles. There are similar pieces from Foriegn Affairs. lutherj Aug 2017 #59
In 2008 I didn't give a shit. I wanted a Democrat ismnotwasm Aug 2017 #63
If you didn't give a shit then you weren't paying attention. There's a reason Obama won. lutherj Aug 2017 #64
Really? I remember DU being split during xmas74 Aug 2017 #79
I remember thinking they were both great during that primary. pnwmom Aug 2017 #93
I liked them both xmas74 Aug 2017 #95
Her voting record has to be read in context. When 97 other Senators vote for the Patriot Act, pnwmom Aug 2017 #89
Horse pucky! Read something about this besdies Salon leftofcool Aug 2017 #57
Everything I cited is a matter of historical record. I watched her in the senate and as SoS. lutherj Aug 2017 #58
I checked all the facts and they don't support your claim that Hillary is a warmonger. pnwmom Aug 2017 #92
You are spectacularly misinformed then, lutherj. The "warmonger" meme is false... Hekate Aug 2017 #60
I simply cited Hillary's voting record in the Senate. Your lunch with a friend doesn't negate lutherj Aug 2017 #61
You did. Without context. Hekate Aug 2017 #62
Please provide the context then. I think it speaks for itself. The last 15 years of endless mindless lutherj Aug 2017 #67
She voted for an IWR that contained conditions. She knew that if that IWR wasn't approved, pnwmom Aug 2017 #90
No, you didn't. You twisted her record to pretend, among other things, that her voting pnwmom Aug 2017 #87
"Worse than Trump" wryter2000 Aug 2017 #69
Some people believed Trump NewJeffCT Aug 2017 #71
Then they weren't very observant wryter2000 Aug 2017 #72
Obama didn't call her a war monger. JI7 Aug 2017 #66
I had to LOL at the posts denying a historical record. KG Aug 2017 #76
Then you're fooling yourself. Her record had a context that the poster ignored. pnwmom Aug 2017 #94
Hillary was NOT a war monger. pnwmom Aug 2017 #86
Thank you so much! betsuni Aug 2017 #91
THE AXIS OF EVIL that the DEEP STATE thought was STUPID. pansypoo53219 Aug 2017 #54
Straw man David__77 Aug 2017 #101

Gothmog

(143,998 posts)
4. The idiots who were so stupid as to vote for Stein help to elect trump
Thu Aug 10, 2017, 06:42 PM
Aug 2017

A vote for Stein helped trump and was in effect a vote for trump.

The idiots who voted for stein need to take responsibility for their stupidity

Response to Gothmog (Reply #4)

ismnotwasm

(41,916 posts)
7. Dude, what are you actually talking about here?
Thu Aug 10, 2017, 06:49 PM
Aug 2017

What would you have Clinton do? And a vote for Stein ~was~ a vote for Trump. End of story

Aristus

(66,075 posts)
9. Don't waste your time.
Thu Aug 10, 2017, 06:51 PM
Aug 2017

Anyone still bleating "But Hillary..." at this point is beyond any rational persuasion...

Eliot Rosewater

(31,096 posts)
10. Hillarys fault that there was a rightwing propaganda and alt right progressive campaign AGAINST
Thu Aug 10, 2017, 06:52 PM
Aug 2017

her?

I cant fucking believe you wrote what you wrote and that you are on this message board.

god DAMMIT

mcar

(42,206 posts)
22. This!
Thu Aug 10, 2017, 07:15 PM
Aug 2017

They are so quick to cast blame, but there no self reflection at all. I honestly don't think nuclear war will change them.

hay rick

(7,520 posts)
36. Would that be a rhetorical question?
Thu Aug 10, 2017, 07:53 PM
Aug 2017

Taking responsibility for the consequences of your actions is so, so...so like being an adult.

Hekate

(90,189 posts)
18. AFAIC, she can take responsibility for having won by over 3,000,000 votes in spite of voter suppress
Thu Aug 10, 2017, 07:04 PM
Aug 2017

...suppression, gerrymandering, Putin, hacking, lies, bots, and all that shit. SHE WON THE ELECTION. All that other shit is NOT HER FAULT. Get over yourself.

Tarheel_Dem

(31,207 posts)
41. Remember, these are the same idiots who gave us *, which lead to the Iraq invasion. They....
Thu Aug 10, 2017, 08:16 PM
Aug 2017

never want to own it, but you're exactly right. Their actions belie their "strongly held convictions".

pnwmom

(108,925 posts)
26. Stein supported Trump and said Hillary was a war monger. She was clearly there to draw progressive
Thu Aug 10, 2017, 07:21 PM
Aug 2017

votes away from Hillary and to help Trump.


SunSeeker

(51,367 posts)
47. That tweet pisses me off to no end.
Thu Aug 10, 2017, 09:03 PM
Aug 2017

If there is a hell, there is an especially hot corner of it reserved for that traitorous sack of shit.

emulatorloo

(43,979 posts)
34. It is a metaphor.
Thu Aug 10, 2017, 07:39 PM
Aug 2017

You vote for the person who has no chance of winning rather than the Dem, you've more or less enabled the Republican's victory when the votes are tallied. See those razor thin margins in Wisconsin for example.

"Lesser of two evils" is also a metaphor. Since no candidate will match you ideological 100% you vote for the candidate who is closest to you. The Dem candidate is not literally "evil"

JHan

(10,173 posts)
84. Elections, particularly Presidential ones, are a zero sum game
Fri Aug 11, 2017, 06:42 PM
Aug 2017

These aren't just "two difference people" and you know this....... this is politics and it's deadly serious. Elections are about consequences.

If you don't vote you amplify the power of those who are voting.

If don't vote wisely, you end up with outcomes paradoxical to what you wanted: e.g. Stein voters voted their "conscience" and in so doing ended up with a President 100 times less liberal and less progressive than Hillary.

Their votes became meaningless for their cause and contributed to an EC loss resulting in no progressive agenda being implemented.

So yeah, they have to own their choice and deal.

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
98. You're far too kind on them
Sat Aug 12, 2017, 12:03 AM
Aug 2017

I believe they deliberately sought to punish the people they knew would most suffer under Trump. They chose to deliver the country to fascism. Whether that was because they aren't capable of thinking about anyone but their own bruised egos or they support Trump's White Nationalist agenda, it doesn't much matter because the result is the same. Actions are what count. Fascism is as fascism does.

George II

(67,782 posts)
99. Yes, but many of the votes for Stein did not go to the Democratic candidate so might as well...
Sat Aug 12, 2017, 12:12 AM
Aug 2017

...have been for trump.

That's how it works. Remember Nader in 2000?

ProudLib72

(17,984 posts)
3. Was NK on the neo-con hitlist?
Thu Aug 10, 2017, 06:42 PM
Aug 2017

I think it was. Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria (remember there was talk of invading there?). Somewhere down the line was NK. They had it all planned out.

ProudLib72

(17,984 posts)
12. Here is what I was referring to
Thu Aug 10, 2017, 06:56 PM
Aug 2017
http://www.activistpost.com/2017/06/syria-iran-n-korea-will-trump-attempt-finish-neocon-hitlist.html

Although there were other reports that marked more countries that the neocons considered ‘hostile’ to the US, or more accurately, hostile to US (Western) imperial ambitions, the September 2000 report focused on five countries. With Iraq and Libya already ‘liberated,’ three countries are still on the hitlist: Syria, Iran and North Korea. Coincidentally (or not), these are some of the main countries that the Trump administration is targeting, and we are only a few months into Trump’s reign.

It's the list made by Bill Kristol's group. Might take decades, but the design hasn't changed.

Eliot Rosewater

(31,096 posts)
8. Glad you said it, I am not allowed.
Thu Aug 10, 2017, 06:51 PM
Aug 2017

But look, she gave a speech, so it is appropriate that now the world ends.

I know, sarcasm , but it is our reality.

xmas74

(29,658 posts)
77. I told her off
Fri Aug 11, 2017, 05:43 PM
Aug 2017

Then one of the Bros jumped all over me.

He couldn't handle me. Neither could his friends.

 
17. Never said such a thing but what a condescending message
Thu Aug 10, 2017, 07:04 PM
Aug 2017

Always loved the Clintons, but won't be talked down to by their self-elected surrogates seeking to polarize DU rather than discuss honestly the complexity of US history over the last two decades. PLONK.

Hekate

(90,189 posts)
19. May I ask why you are taking the OP personally? Has someone been attacking you...
Thu Aug 10, 2017, 07:11 PM
Aug 2017

...in the short time you've been with us, Blue Ridge Virginia?

pnwmom

(108,925 posts)
27. What are you talking about? How does the OP polarize DU?
Thu Aug 10, 2017, 07:23 PM
Aug 2017

DUers don't think Hillary was a war monger. That's the lie pushed by Jill Stein and her ilk.


betsuni

(25,120 posts)
31. Idiots, idiots, idiots, idiots, idiots.
Thu Aug 10, 2017, 07:26 PM
Aug 2017

The Clintons as warmongers is one of the cornerstones of the religion of anti-Democratic idiots.

Stonepounder

(4,033 posts)
32. Dear God in Heaven! Can we PLEASE quit fighting last year's election?
Thu Aug 10, 2017, 07:36 PM
Aug 2017

How about positive efforts to elect Democrats NEXT year? I don't give a rat's ass about Jill Stein, or who did what to whom!

Get a grip. Move on. Get out and work to elect YOUR candidates and quit worrying about something that you no longer have ANY control over and no ability to change.

nini

(16,670 posts)
46. We're fighting the next one
Thu Aug 10, 2017, 09:01 PM
Aug 2017

By trying to keep pounding into idiots heads to not make the same mistakes of not seeing through the likes of Stein etc..

progressoid

(49,824 posts)
80. Probably won't work.
Fri Aug 11, 2017, 05:52 PM
Aug 2017

There will always be a Stein or Nader or Johnson that will get a small percentage of votes.

Also, treating them like idiots won't win them over.

nini

(16,670 posts)
81. What's with this winning them over crap I always see here.
Fri Aug 11, 2017, 06:03 PM
Aug 2017

Last edited Fri Aug 11, 2017, 07:51 PM - Edit history (1)

I don't coddle disruptors. I call them out and mock them. They are ruining this country and if they want their ass kissed this Homey don't play that!

Voters are adults who have a responsibility to do what's best for the country. If they do not - the gloves are off.

KitSileya

(4,035 posts)
70. OFFS! They are using the same attacks on our current leaders!
Fri Aug 11, 2017, 01:05 PM
Aug 2017

Kamala Harris, Cory Booker, Deval Patrick et al are being accused of the same fake smears as Hillary Clinton was by the same fanatical "Our Revolution" "dirtbag left" bots and trolls.

Martin Eden

(12,801 posts)
37. I would never say there is no difference between a Democrat and a Republic
Thu Aug 10, 2017, 07:54 PM
Aug 2017

In matters of war or anything else.

The administration of GW Bush is overwhelmingly responsible for launching the 2003 war of choice based on lies in Iraq.

However, I will also say that John Kerry, Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, and any other Dem who voted in October 2002 to give GW Bush authority to invade Iraq forever lost my vote in Democratic primaries (though not the general election, of course).

xmas74

(29,658 posts)
78. What they did then might be different
Fri Aug 11, 2017, 05:46 PM
Aug 2017

Compared to what they know now. It's easy to be a Monday morning quarterback.

Martin Eden

(12,801 posts)
96. DU was full of Friday night quarterbacks in 2002
Fri Aug 11, 2017, 10:32 PM
Aug 2017

We knew about PNAC and we knew the case for war was bogus and we knew that once given authority Bush was going to invade.

BEFORE, not after it all went to hell.

We called and wrote our reps, and ultimately slightly LESS than half the combined Dems in the House & Senate voted for the IWR.

But some politicians stuck their finger in the post 9/11 political winds and calculated it was better to appear tough on national security.

Either that or they were less informed than we were at DU or they deluded themselves into thinking Cheney/Bush would act in good faith or they were on board with the neocon agenda.

shadowmayor

(1,325 posts)
38. On the subject of North Korea
Thu Aug 10, 2017, 07:59 PM
Aug 2017

President Clinton was working (negotiating with the enemy) on a long term path to peace. Part of that deal was for North Korea to not pursue nuclear weapons. Things were moving forward until the Texas Turd announced that North Korea was part of the axis of evil. Another Texas cowpie, Karen Hughes came to the microphone and said that we don't negotiate with our enemies and we don't do nuance.

The situation we're in, is due in great part to lil' Bush scrubbing years of work. The Obama team reached out, with no support from the Republicans in Congress, but North Korea felt their best position was to develop nukes.

This recent history is never mentioned in the media reports on our current situation. And that's a damned shame. It was the Republican leadership and party that pushed North Korea to build a nuclear arsenal.

not fooled

(5,791 posts)
39. Oh, and to change the topic a little bit
Thu Aug 10, 2017, 08:05 PM
Aug 2017

Don't forget President Obama getting Iran to sign the nuclear deal, which the crackpot actual warmongers in the White House now are trying to undermine in order to foment war with Iran, i.e. returning to the position held by the neocons during chimpy's admin, when only the clusterf*ck that Iraq turned out to be prevented them from going to war in even more Middle Eastern countries.

Just citing another example of a Democratic president preventing war while puke administrations (not just the figurehead boobs they get into the presidency) try to go to war to fulfill crackpot schemes while of course using other folks' children to fight.



Cosmocat

(14,543 posts)
73. He'll, Rs in Congress sent Iran a letter
Fri Aug 11, 2017, 02:52 PM
Aug 2017

Telling them to not do the deal.

That this country, time after time after time after time indulges their fuck wittery and dies not punish the at the ballot box is why we care were we are today.

lutherj

(2,485 posts)
53. In the 2008 primaries Obama used Hillary Clinton's support for the Iraq war and the Kyl-Lieberman
Thu Aug 10, 2017, 09:20 PM
Aug 2017

Amendment against her to secure the nomination. Clinton voted for the Iraq war, the Patriot Act, Patriot Act II, an amendment that would have sunsetted certain more extreme provisions of the Patriot Act, and as I have mentioned the Kyl-Lieberman Amendment, which was strongly supported by John McCain and which encouraged the Bush Administration to designate the Iranian Revolutionary Guard as a terrorist group, this in 2007 when Bush and Cheney were eager to bomb Iran and start another war. As for her record as Secretary of State it's well-known and can be reviewed here (as well as friendships with conservative and hawkish generals):

http://www.salon.com/2016/04/27/democrats_this_is_why_you_need_to_fear_hillary_clinton_the_ny_times_is_absolutely_right_shes_a_bigger_hawk_than_the_republicanse/

During the recent election campaign she promoted the establishment of a no-fly zone over Syria which would have led to a confrontation with Russian war planes.

Hillary's record is clear. She's a war monger. (And just for the record, I voted for Hillary in the general election because I regarded it as the only responsible choice. But I voted for Obama in 2008 because I didn't like Hillary's voting record in the senate.)

ismnotwasm

(41,916 posts)
56. No, she isn't.
Thu Aug 10, 2017, 09:33 PM
Aug 2017

And one Salon article doesn't prove anything about any topic, particularly complex ones.

lutherj

(2,485 posts)
59. The Salon article references a NY Times articles. There are similar pieces from Foriegn Affairs.
Thu Aug 10, 2017, 10:17 PM
Aug 2017

Anyway, I just listed her voting record in the senate. Look it up if you don't believe me. Did you vote for Obama or Hillary in 2008?

ismnotwasm

(41,916 posts)
63. In 2008 I didn't give a shit. I wanted a Democrat
Thu Aug 10, 2017, 11:11 PM
Aug 2017

Anything that reduces Hillary Clinton to "Warmonger" is simplistic bullshit.

lutherj

(2,485 posts)
64. If you didn't give a shit then you weren't paying attention. There's a reason Obama won.
Thu Aug 10, 2017, 11:24 PM
Aug 2017

I'm willing to bet the majority of DU voted for him over Clinton. I remember why he won. You could easily find it on the internet. It's because he DIDN'T SUPPORT THE WAR IN IRAQ!

Let's see, now? Who did? Hmmm . . .

pnwmom

(108,925 posts)
93. I remember thinking they were both great during that primary.
Fri Aug 11, 2017, 07:33 PM
Aug 2017

So much so that I skipped our caucuses. I knew I'd be fine with either one of them.

xmas74

(29,658 posts)
95. I liked them both
Fri Aug 11, 2017, 10:04 PM
Aug 2017

But I did lean towards her at the time. I felt her experiences lent more towards being ready for the office. But I did like him and I campaigned in the GE.

I just don't get where the poster thought DU was totally for him. I remember some nasty fights from the primary season.

pnwmom

(108,925 posts)
89. Her voting record has to be read in context. When 97 other Senators vote for the Patriot Act,
Fri Aug 11, 2017, 07:17 PM
Aug 2017

voting for it doesn't make her a war monger. Neither did any of the other votes you cited.

lutherj

(2,485 posts)
58. Everything I cited is a matter of historical record. I watched her in the senate and as SoS.
Thu Aug 10, 2017, 10:13 PM
Aug 2017

you can check the facts for yourself. BTW, the Salon article references a NY Times article if that's more PC for you.

pnwmom

(108,925 posts)
92. I checked all the facts and they don't support your claim that Hillary is a warmonger.
Fri Aug 11, 2017, 07:30 PM
Aug 2017

You should learned more about the votes before you cited hers completely out of context.

Hekate

(90,189 posts)
60. You are spectacularly misinformed then, lutherj. The "warmonger" meme is false...
Thu Aug 10, 2017, 10:33 PM
Aug 2017

...to the point of slander.

Only a few weeks before the election I had lunch with one of my longtime friends in the antiwar movement, and she filled me in on how Hillary was going to take us straight into war with I-now-forget-who, because she just looooves her some war.

I felt sick to my stomach, not only for my friend's sake but for all those I used to work with that she was still so involved with. I tried to draw my old friend out on her deeper understanding of probable threats from, say, China. China has global ambitions, and all the instances I mentioned were as Greek to her. Nope, Hillary was a warmonger, and probably worse than Trump.

We parted in sadness at each other's ignorance, and have not spoken since.

The point of this little anecdote is that spreading this false meme has real consequences, and I don't mean the loss of a friendship. I mean the loss of a presidency.

lutherj

(2,485 posts)
61. I simply cited Hillary's voting record in the Senate. Your lunch with a friend doesn't negate
Thu Aug 10, 2017, 11:03 PM
Aug 2017

the public record. Moreover I spent a good deal of effort during the campaign trying to convince my leftist friends to vote for Hillary. I was not then calling her a warmonger. When they brought up her record I argued that it would be easier for the left to sway Hillary than Trump, and that in other areas the left would be making progress. But there's no point in whitewashing history. Those who fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it. I'm well aware that it's a complex and dangerous world, but the history lesson that I have taken is that the last 15 years of endless and immoral wars is a monumental clusterf*ck.

lutherj

(2,485 posts)
67. Please provide the context then. I think it speaks for itself. The last 15 years of endless mindless
Fri Aug 11, 2017, 12:52 AM
Aug 2017

war have been, in my opinion, a monumental clusterfuck. Do you support endless war?

pnwmom

(108,925 posts)
90. She voted for an IWR that contained conditions. She knew that if that IWR wasn't approved,
Fri Aug 11, 2017, 07:20 PM
Aug 2017

then the Republicans in January would give him a blank-check IWR.

It wasn't any Democrat's fault that Bush chose to ignore the conditions and go to war even though WMD's were never found.

pnwmom

(108,925 posts)
87. No, you didn't. You twisted her record to pretend, among other things, that her voting
Fri Aug 11, 2017, 07:16 PM
Aug 2017

for the Patriot Act -- where she was in a 98 vote Senate majority -- somehow made her a war mongerer.

wryter2000

(46,016 posts)
69. "Worse than Trump"
Fri Aug 11, 2017, 12:53 PM
Aug 2017

How can anyone in their right mind believe such a thing? Same with the "no difference" crowd.

IMHO, it's perfectly reasonable to say our candidate isn't good enough or liberal enough. I might disagree with you, but I won't call you irrational. The "worse than" and "no difference" nonsense is ridiculous.

I was a mod here when "Obama = Bush" was allowed, and it drove me nuts. I believe DU policy has changed since then.

NewJeffCT

(56,827 posts)
71. Some people believed Trump
Fri Aug 11, 2017, 01:20 PM
Aug 2017

when he claimed he was against the Iraq War from the beginning, even though he was on tape on Howard Stern saying he supported the war. A few on the left (not many, but enough) thought that since she had voted for the Iraq War and her husband had signed NAFTA, it made her worse than Trump, who said he wanted to scrap NAFTA.

wryter2000

(46,016 posts)
72. Then they weren't very observant
Fri Aug 11, 2017, 02:11 PM
Aug 2017

You mentioned what he said on Howard Stern. Plus, he was running as a crazed rightie. There was no way to trust what he said.

pnwmom

(108,925 posts)
86. Hillary was NOT a war monger.
Fri Aug 11, 2017, 07:05 PM
Aug 2017

Obama shouldn't have criticized her for her IWR vote. Hillary voted for an IWR that was conditioned upon finding WMD's. We never found them but Bush went to war anyway.

She voted for the conditional IWR knowing that the Republicans were about to come into power in Congress; and that if the conditional IWR didn't pass, then they'd simply vote for a blank check IWR in January.

So it wasn't as if a vote against the IWR would have prevented Bush from going to war. He could simply have called for a another vote in January, when the Republicans had the majority.

With regard to the Patriot Acts 1 and 2, only 1 Senator voted against the 2001 Patriot Act, so it is ludicrous to claim that made Hillary a war mongerer. Only 10 voted against the re-authorization.

http://educate-yourself.org/cn/patriotact20012006senatevote.shtml

And with regard to Kyl-Lieberman, Obama abstained from the vote, he didn't oppose it. And John McCain, who you claim was a strong supporter, also abstained.

Sens. John McCain (R-AZ) and Barack Obama (D-IL) didn’t vote.

https://thinkprogress.org/breaking-lieberman-kyls-iran-amendment-passes-44ab3a7b1182/

David__77

(23,214 posts)
101. Straw man
Sat Aug 12, 2017, 12:40 PM
Aug 2017

One could have thought Clinton was a warmonger and still vote for her. I disagreed with foreign policy very much and still voted for her.

Opposing Trump didn't and doesn't require praising Clintons foreign policy.

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