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senseandsensibility

(16,972 posts)
Fri Jul 13, 2012, 08:51 PM Jul 2012

Simple question: Why do you think Romney won't release more of his tax returns?

I am serious about this. Is it cluelessness, arrogance, bad advice, stupidity, stubborness, or what?

Or, is it because there's something so damaging in them that it's worth dealing with all this?

What do you honestly think?

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Simple question: Why do you think Romney won't release more of his tax returns? (Original Post) senseandsensibility Jul 2012 OP
He'd rather lose the election by lying than by telling the truth lunatica Jul 2012 #1
Because the information in them is more damaging than anyone can imagine. Ruby the Liberal Jul 2012 #2
It's public knowledge that he took writeoff on fancy horses, must be lots of "creative" stuff like Liberal_in_LA Jul 2012 #7
Obama is a smart lawyer. madaboutharry Jul 2012 #8
Jeb and Bush Senior called on Bush earlier this year. JDPriestly Jul 2012 #40
I also think that he's smart enough to know XemaSab Jul 2012 #23
it has to be more than that KurtNYC Jul 2012 #48
There's more to it than just that. Quantess Jul 2012 #74
They would reveal the years he hardly paid taxes Nancy Waterman Jul 2012 #38
The issue is hurting him. So there must be something damaging in them. randome Jul 2012 #3
There must be something damaging there liberal N proud Jul 2012 #4
I don't know sandyshoes17 Jul 2012 #5
Vetted? Ruby the Liberal Jul 2012 #15
I agree sandyshoes17 Jul 2012 #20
Grampy's thundering silence speaks volumes. hifiguy Jul 2012 #21
The entire Republican Party is staying silent and letting coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #61
When you decide to run, you self-vet at first SoCalDem Jul 2012 #29
Lemon. Wet. Good. senseandsensibility Jul 2012 #59
So when he does and nothing is there it will be a 'win' for him. Zax2me Jul 2012 #6
I admit that I've thought of that, too. senseandsensibility Jul 2012 #10
And if that was the plan, he has waited too long to succeed. morningfog Jul 2012 #55
He's hiding something monumental. n/t pnwmom Jul 2012 #9
The tax returns tell the whole $$ story and Romney said tonight he will NOT release any new returns. swayne Jul 2012 #11
I think it's something that would cause 5-10 percent of the population to change... BlueJazz Jul 2012 #12
But I think he's losing more than a point or two. senseandsensibility Jul 2012 #18
What you say is true. Perhaps they thought the Democrats would wimp-out on this issue. BlueJazz Jul 2012 #24
That's some cold mental calculus but I agree that's probably the coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #63
I thought that the die-hard Republicans would simply blow off the criticism and attribute the.. BlueJazz Jul 2012 #67
like his party likes to say, if you've done nothing wrong you have nothing to hide spanone Jul 2012 #13
My guess is that the records will show that hifiguy Jul 2012 #14
I see no reason for him not to release several years of tax returns..... soccer1 Jul 2012 #16
arrogance- that and entitlement. Bluerthanblue Jul 2012 #17
Based upon Reid's statement yesterday rufus dog Jul 2012 #19
Harry Reid is nothing if not cautious. hifiguy Jul 2012 #22
Exactly rufus dog Jul 2012 #26
Another vote here for no federal taxes paid. pa28 Jul 2012 #56
Yeah, it'll show he paid close to zero taxes for several years... backscatter712 Jul 2012 #25
Because it will show he didn't actually pay taxes. MrSlayer Jul 2012 #27
It will show that he made millions from Bain AFTER 1999... ecstatic Jul 2012 #28
He is hiding a lot Rosa Luxemburg Jul 2012 #30
I think there is extremely damaging info in them, along the lines kestrel91316 Jul 2012 #31
I'm thinking his tax returns would prove he was involved with Bain well past 1999. Marr Jul 2012 #32
I think it's mostly because he thinks that he can get away with it... Kalidurga Jul 2012 #33
When he talks he lies. Best for him to not talk. billyjax Jul 2012 #34
let him keep taking and he will hang himself. welcome to du. eom ellenfl Jul 2012 #52
He's just lowering the bar Politicalboi Jul 2012 #35
Massive tax evasion Canuckistanian Jul 2012 #36
Because he is cheating his church and the IRS. Historic NY Jul 2012 #37
It might be worse than most speculation ThoughtCriminal Jul 2012 #39
Would you if you were him? demosincebirth Jul 2012 #41
Could be something simple, like an address. HooptieWagon Jul 2012 #42
Seriously I suspect that even if innocent of any wrong doing ... spin Jul 2012 #43
You made many well thought out, good points. senseandsensibility Jul 2012 #65
If there is nothing seriously wrong hiding In Romney’s tax returns I feel he should release them … spin Jul 2012 #70
More of the "both sides are doing it" nonsense lolly Jul 2012 #71
So, it's Obama's fault that the Republicans blocked everything? lolly Jul 2012 #72
My point is ... spin Jul 2012 #75
Because he thinks he's better than anyone else proud2BlibKansan Jul 2012 #44
Most people in power don't think B Calm Jul 2012 #45
But most (no, all) recent presidential candidates release several years of tax returns. senseandsensibility Jul 2012 #46
I'm talking about corporate people B Calm Jul 2012 #58
He took the amnesty TheTruthSquad Jul 2012 #47
That sounds like the most likely answer lolly Jul 2012 #73
My simple question Zyzafyx Jul 2012 #49
lol senseandsensibility Jul 2012 #50
Simple and oh, so appropriate! randome Jul 2012 #54
Who is making deposits in those FOREIGN accounts? Connections to LIBOR???? patrice Jul 2012 #51
Funny thing is he gave them to McCain 23yrs worth... Historic NY Jul 2012 #53
All of the above and possibly more, I reckon. TheKentuckian Jul 2012 #57
Rope GeorgeGist Jul 2012 #60
Damaging Motown_Johnny Jul 2012 #62
He has to be hiding something severely illegal meow2u3 Jul 2012 #64
Palling around with terrorists !!! RagAss Jul 2012 #66
That's true. flamingdem Jul 2012 #69
I think Obama knows what's inside his tax returns Major Nikon Jul 2012 #68
simple answer barbtries Jul 2012 #76
because it will show the 99% exactly how the 1% operate Skittles Jul 2012 #77
His Bain salary between 1999 and 2002. Jim__ Jul 2012 #78
We are supposed to suspend our disbelief. Quantess Jul 2012 #79
This was all over the Sunday talk shows customerserviceguy Jul 2012 #80
Maybe he thought he was unemployed and thought he did not need to file? RC Jul 2012 #81

Ruby the Liberal

(26,219 posts)
2. Because the information in them is more damaging than anyone can imagine.
Fri Jul 13, 2012, 08:53 PM
Jul 2012

The Obama camp knows this (never ask a question for which you don't already know the answer).

Personally, I am thinking that there are several years where no taxes were paid due to creative accounting (loopholes).

 

Liberal_in_LA

(44,397 posts)
7. It's public knowledge that he took writeoff on fancy horses, must be lots of "creative" stuff like
Fri Jul 13, 2012, 08:56 PM
Jul 2012

that.

madaboutharry

(40,201 posts)
8. Obama is a smart lawyer.
Fri Jul 13, 2012, 08:58 PM
Jul 2012

He knows what is there. I think someone in the McCann campaign leaked the tax returns to someone close to Obama a while ago and that the Obama campaign has had all this information already gone over with a fine tooth comb. They know the answer to every question. I also think that the Romney campaign knows all of this and that they are doomed. I think they may have already decided to lose the election.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
40. Jeb and Bush Senior called on Bush earlier this year.
Sat Jul 14, 2012, 12:56 AM
Jul 2012

Maybe they brought this information.

In other words, it could have been anyone who might have vetted Romney's candidacy for a position and not just John McCain.

Could have been the campaign of one of the candidates who opposed Romney in the primaries.

Could have been a former Romney employee.

KurtNYC

(14,549 posts)
48. it has to be more than that
Sat Jul 14, 2012, 12:55 PM
Jul 2012

Being rich is not a negative for most voters. Plenty of people far wealthier than Romney have been elected repeatedly and by voters to the Left of the average US voter. For example Michael Bloomberg is worth about 48x as much as Romney and is elected repeatedly in a very liberal area of the country.

McCain's team vetted Romney and passed in favor of Governor Quitter.

And team Obama with whatever they know are boxing Romney in. They used the word "felony" so they have at least enough to back up one felony. Seems like they are letting Romney dig in before they release what they have. Romney is predictable which to me means we won't be seeing any "3D chess" this year.

I'm going to agree with the 'zero tax paid' by using loopholes / financial shell game crowd.

I want a side bet on something to do with the Olympic scandals of 2002. My theory there goes -- Team Obama is getting Romney to absolutely demand that he was hands-on at the Olympics and NOT at Bain, then they come with the Olympic scandal and he can't weasel out of it. Romney has run on Bain and on how he 'saved the Olympics from scandal' so, like Bain, it could flip against him. The IOOC was very corrupt and somewhat open about it in those days. Romney replaced people who were simply paying the bribes and arranging prostitutes for the same people that he took over in dealing with so it seems entirely possible that some other scandal could be there. They only "fixed" one side of the corruption. ...and I know the perfect time to release this scandal (if there is one) -- the day before Rafalca dances in London.

Quantess

(27,630 posts)
74. There's more to it than just that.
Sun Jul 15, 2012, 07:51 AM
Jul 2012

I would bet money on that, if I had any.

John Kerry was also obscenely rich, but he released his tax returns.

Nancy Waterman

(6,407 posts)
38. They would reveal the years he hardly paid taxes
Fri Jul 13, 2012, 10:31 PM
Jul 2012

and the years he worked for Bain but claimed he didn't; also how much he made during those years
which is so far only "over 100,000".

No doubt lots of bad stuff revealed.

liberal N proud

(60,334 posts)
4. There must be something damaging there
Fri Jul 13, 2012, 08:54 PM
Jul 2012

He might have learned after releasing them to McCain what kind of trouble they would be if made public. It might be why McCain did not choose him for VP.


Then again, it could be his arrogance.

sandyshoes17

(657 posts)
5. I don't know
Fri Jul 13, 2012, 08:56 PM
Jul 2012

But either one of your suggestions is not good in today's climate. It has to be something bad, but why would they let him get this far, wasn't he vetted. Was it just his turn, and they thought he would be smarter than that. I would love to know. Alot of people say these countries that he outsourced to pay big money for you to move companys to their country. I hope they get to the bottom of it

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
21. Grampy's thundering silence speaks volumes.
Fri Jul 13, 2012, 09:50 PM
Jul 2012

He knows exactly how crooked Mittens is and thought Princess Dumbass was a better bet. Which is terrifying.

 

coalition_unwilling

(14,180 posts)
61. The entire Republican Party is staying silent and letting
Sat Jul 14, 2012, 05:20 PM
Jul 2012

Willard twist in the wind.

He pissed off so many people clawing and buying his way to the nomination that it's little wonder no one is there to defend him now.

SoCalDem

(103,856 posts)
29. When you decide to run, you self-vet at first
Fri Jul 13, 2012, 10:13 PM
Jul 2012

Think:








and then if you start winning, you hire people to try & find the dirt. If they don't find your deepest darkest secrets, and you have shitloads of money & a ton of ego, you run .

senseandsensibility

(16,972 posts)
59. Lemon. Wet. Good.
Sat Jul 14, 2012, 05:04 PM
Jul 2012

Thanks for keeping that alive. I don't think it got nearly enough traction, personally.

 

Zax2me

(2,515 posts)
6. So when he does and nothing is there it will be a 'win' for him.
Fri Jul 13, 2012, 08:56 PM
Jul 2012

But it won't matter.
Obama will win by around 10 points.
This isn't a race.
The MSM needs it to be for MONEY.

 

swayne

(383 posts)
11. The tax returns tell the whole $$ story and Romney said tonight he will NOT release any new returns.
Fri Jul 13, 2012, 09:00 PM
Jul 2012

The taxes will show he was STILL at Bain from 1999-2002.

The tax returns will show that he was not only avoiding taxes, but avoiding those HE SHOULD HAVE PAID.

Romney will not show the taxes and this will cause the GOP to replace his a$$ at the convention.


Grab your popcorn, this should be good!!!

 

BlueJazz

(25,348 posts)
12. I think it's something that would cause 5-10 percent of the population to change...
Fri Jul 13, 2012, 09:03 PM
Jul 2012

....their mind about voting for him...which would destroy ANY chance of him being POTUS.

His "people" are thinking: "He loses a point or two by not showing his returns and five to ten by showing them...the choice is clear"

 

coalition_unwilling

(14,180 posts)
63. That's some cold mental calculus but I agree that's probably the
Sat Jul 14, 2012, 05:24 PM
Jul 2012

way it's being approached.

Now what would cost a 5-10 point drop that non release only costs a 1-2% drop?

That is the crucial question.

 

BlueJazz

(25,348 posts)
67. I thought that the die-hard Republicans would simply blow off the criticism and attribute the..
Sat Jul 14, 2012, 10:06 PM
Jul 2012

.... nondisclosure to privacy concerns. (except for a small minority)
However, if there were truly MAJOR damaging facts in the returns, maybe ? 10-20 % of the
Republicans would not bother voting.
Any Repugs changing their vote? Not likely.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
14. My guess is that the records will show that
Fri Jul 13, 2012, 09:10 PM
Jul 2012

he has paid virtually no US taxes for years. As another DUer posted, the McCain people saw Mittens' financials and picked Princess Dumbass anyway. What does that tell you?

Mittens is totally scewn either way - stonewall and everyone will think he's a thief and a crook, open the files and prove it.

soccer1

(343 posts)
16. I see no reason for him not to release several years of tax returns.....
Fri Jul 13, 2012, 09:18 PM
Jul 2012

so, I definitely believe he's got something to hide that would severely damage his candidacy. If not, why wouldn't he just release several years of returns, so that he can get on with talking about the economy and jobs, his standard response when confronted with issues he doesn't want to talk about. I wonder if his tax returns would show that he was involved with Bain when he claims he was not.

Bluerthanblue

(13,669 posts)
17. arrogance- that and entitlement.
Fri Jul 13, 2012, 09:20 PM
Jul 2012

he believes he doesn't have to be held accountable. That the arrogant "how dare you question me" stand will work.

I wish I had more faith that it won't-

It sure shouldn't.

 

rufus dog

(8,419 posts)
19. Based upon Reid's statement yesterday
Fri Jul 13, 2012, 09:36 PM
Jul 2012

I am guessing he paid minimal taxes on in some years possibly zero.

So he amassed a great amount of wealth and paid close to zero in taxes. It has been reported that he donated his one million salary from the Olympics to charity, (to his Church?) so he would have had a major write off. A poster over at Kos has a thread on how many corporate Olympic sponsors became involved with Bain, so he may have leveraged that "patriotic" work for the USOC into a huge amount of business for Bain. Then the money was funneled through offshore accounts, with some being claimed in the U.S., but offset by his charitable donations. So a large percentage of the population will be pissed that we are paying 30+ while the Mittsters of the world pay almost nothing. In addition it will make him the immediate response for any republican who claims 50% of Americans pay no taxes, "you mean like Mitt!"

Also as many other respondents have stated, there will be a boatload of write-offs that us commoners can't understand. Finally, he may have a problem with voting in MA in 2010 yet claiming other States as his residence in 2009 and 2010, thereby blowing up another republican talking point about voter fraud. It ain't the minorities committing the fraud like they always insinuate, it is people who have homes in multiple states.




Senator Reid link below



http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=941843

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
22. Harry Reid is nothing if not cautious.
Fri Jul 13, 2012, 09:53 PM
Jul 2012

I suspect that he knows everything the WH knows, and it ain't good for Rmoney.

 

rufus dog

(8,419 posts)
26. Exactly
Fri Jul 13, 2012, 10:01 PM
Jul 2012

When have we seen Reid make a statement like this? Never!

They have the returns, someone from Team McCain likely made copies and because Mitt is such an Ass they likely delivered a gift to Team Obama.

Step 1 - Make Mitt sweat

Step 2 - Mitt comes clean or digs the hole deeper

Step 3 - Continue accusations and have selected leaks

Step 4 through 100, repeat steps 1, 2, and 3.

pa28

(6,145 posts)
56. Another vote here for no federal taxes paid.
Sat Jul 14, 2012, 01:44 PM
Jul 2012

Between his magical $100m 401k and his offshore tax havens I"ll bet there are at least a couple of zero liability years.

backscatter712

(26,355 posts)
25. Yeah, it'll show he paid close to zero taxes for several years...
Fri Jul 13, 2012, 09:59 PM
Jul 2012

and that he's squirreled his money away in places like the Cayman Islands to avoid paying his fair share.

I'll say it again - now we can get payback for all the teabaggers' howling about Obama's birth certificate.

We just need to shout "WHERE'S ROMNEY'S TAX RETURNS?!" over and over!

ecstatic

(32,677 posts)
28. It will show that he made millions from Bain AFTER 1999...
Fri Jul 13, 2012, 10:10 PM
Jul 2012

And it will be hard to explain why he made millions while having nothing to do with Bain. Then again, it may show that he evaded taxes. He's definitely hiding something!

 

kestrel91316

(51,666 posts)
31. I think there is extremely damaging info in them, along the lines
Fri Jul 13, 2012, 10:17 PM
Jul 2012

of essentially zero federal income taxes paid for years and/or salary from Bain when he supposedly wasn't with them anymore and/or income from something people would find even more repugnant than aborted fetuses, if that's possible.

Kalidurga

(14,177 posts)
33. I think it's mostly because he thinks that he can get away with it...
Fri Jul 13, 2012, 10:21 PM
Jul 2012

That is why he lies all the time, picks on people he thinks are weaker, has no compassion for animals, and why he thinks other people's pensions are the sweetest money.

billyjax

(1 post)
34. When he talks he lies. Best for him to not talk.
Fri Jul 13, 2012, 10:22 PM
Jul 2012

I'm new here, I came to speak because I know that I was censored at or around 8:15 to 8:40pm from watching msnbc Ed Show. By Dish network this was the only channel. I hear that Madeleine Stowe movie star Rim Eric Cantor out.
I call Dish Network told them off and now want the world to hear me. I sick of fascist TV.

ThoughtCriminal

(14,047 posts)
39. It might be worse than most speculation
Fri Jul 13, 2012, 10:47 PM
Jul 2012

Zero, or near zero income taxes. Claiming residence in a state other than where he voted, millions from Bain when he claims he did no work for them, undisclosed conflicts of interest. For all we know, these could be minor annoyances.

Once you realize that the damage from disclosure must be worse than letting the drip continue, you know it has to be pretty bad. Face-melting bad.

As long as he wants to be hush-hush, I can think of some really ugly possibilities:

- It could expose various ways that he screws his "Friends"
- He could be investing in really, really repulsive stuff - or at least other things that would really shock his religious-right base.
- Questionable "Charities"
- Obvious kickbacks (hey as long as you report the income...)
- Anti-American investing

 

HooptieWagon

(17,064 posts)
42. Could be something simple, like an address.
Sat Jul 14, 2012, 01:51 AM
Jul 2012

Suppose the address on his return was in Utah, not in Mass where he voted and held office. It would be pretty tough to 'splain that away.

spin

(17,493 posts)
43. Seriously I suspect that even if innocent of any wrong doing ...
Sat Jul 14, 2012, 05:12 AM
Jul 2012

Romney's tax returns would provide more information to support more allegations from the Obama camp.

Romney hopes to run his campaign on the state of the economy and if he gets his way he could win the election.

Obama faces an uphill battle if the election is only about the economy as it's hard to argue that he can fix it if he only has four more years. While it is probably true that the economy will improve in four years despite who is elected, it would be difficult to pull such an argument off even with all the oratory skills that Obama has. Obama admitted this early in his administration.



It was fortunate that the Republicans ran such a weak field of candidates in their primary and that so many were trying to garner support from the ultraconservative Tea Party. In reality, Romney was their best choice and had he faced some real competition he would not the the Republican candidate for President today.

Romney has considerable drawbacks. First he is RICH beyond the imagination of most average Americans. At one time being a member of the 1% might not have been all that important when running for the office of President and might have been viewed as positive. Today many voters feel that the rich are greedy and have little concern in the problems that the middle class and the poor face on a daily basis. Romney is not only rich but he is also out of touch. When you can afford a $55,000 car elevator for your home, it's hard to understand the plight of the average family in America who lives paycheck to paycheck. (Ref: http://www.politico.com/blogs/burns-haberman/2012/05/romneys-car-elevator-cost-124588.html)

Romney also lacks charisma. He tries hard but fails as it is obvious that he has never personally known many average Americans and has little interest in inviting any to his mansions.

Romney however a very successful businessman and knows how to invest and make money. He can argue that this knowledge might make him a far better President in our current environment than Obama whose administration invested a large amount of money in green energy firms that were far from ready to complete in a difficult world market and failed dramatically. While it is true that many of Bain Capitol investments failed, many were successful.
Some you win and some you lose. In business a few good decisions can offset many foolish ones.

Bain Capital

Bain Capital is a Boston-headquartered alternative asset management and financial services company that specializes in private equity, venture capital, credit and public market investments. Bain invests across a broad range of industry sectors and geographic regions. As of the beginning of 2012, the firm managed approximately $66 billion of investor capital across its various investment platforms.

The firm was founded in 1984 by partners from the consulting firm Bain & Company. Since inception it has invested in or acquired hundreds of companies including AMC Entertainment, Aspen Education Group, Brookstone, Burger King, Burlington Coat Factory, Clear Channel Communications, Domino's Pizza, DoubleClick, Dunkin' Donuts, D&M Holdings, Guitar Center, Hospital Corporation of America (HCA), Sealy, The Sports Authority, Staples, Toys "R" Us, Warner Music Group and The Weather Channel.

***snip***
Much of the firm's profits was earned from a relatively small number of deals, with Bain Capital's overall success and failure rate being about even. One study of 68 deals that Bain Capital made up through the 1990s found that the firm lost money or broke even on 33 of them.[35] Another study that looked at the eight-year period following 77 deals during the same time found that in 17 cases the company went bankrupt or out of business, and in 6 cases Bain Capital lost all its investment. But 10 deals were very successful and represented 70 percent of the total profits.[36]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bain_Capital


Obama promised change we could believe in.

&feature=related

Obama was undoubtedly the most inspiring individual who has ever run for the office of the President in my lifetime. I believed that he also would be the greatest President in that period and that history would view him much as it views Lincoln, FDR or JFK. Unfortunately I have to admit that I am somewhat disappointed in his first term in office.

Once in office Obama amazingly failed to use his oratory skills effectively and consequently failed to use the power of his bully pulpit to garner support from the American public to force both Republicans and Democrats to work together actually force the change he promised.

His outstanding achievement currently known as "Obama Care" was a compromise that currently appears to preserve the for profit healthcare system in our nation rather than to be a truly world class healthcare system. We currently have the most expensive healthcare system but far from the best and many experts feel that the proposed system might be even more expensive for the average American and no better. Hopefully these experts are wrong but "Obama Care" is unpopular with many voters and also business owners who fear that their costs under the new system will effectively hurt their profits and consequently are hesitant to hire new employees. This fact has hurt our recovery.

I hate to say this but once in office Obama lost his Mojo. He is a great campaigner but needs to develop leadership skills. I realize that getting your vision passed as a President while having to deal with the reality that many members of Congress are bought and owned by the big corporations is like herding cats. Still I had hope that Obama could accomplish the impossible. Perhaps if given a second term he can. To accomplish this he not only has to be the best orator that I have ever seen but also the best leader as President. "Yes we can" can become reality if he steps up to the plate as he has the charisma and the popularity to accomplish his goals.

Americans expect results. We are an impatient group of people and feel that four years is a long time. I often feel that the Republicans set up Obama to fail as they realized that electing another Republican President after Bush the Younger was impossible. The Republicans have no desire to help him in any way to achieve his goals. It is truly unfortunate that in our nation today both parties fight like children in an unsupervised playground and compromise is viewed as failure. Our nation suffers as a result.

It is also sad that Obama has to run a negative campaign against Romney in order to win reelection, however it is a political fact. The state of the economy is always the most important factor in any Presidential election. Sadly our economy is facing tough times and significant improvement before election day appears unlikely. The whole world is facing rough times which will hurt our recovery.

The OP asked for an honest opinion on why Romney won't release more of his tax returns? I have tried to explain that Romney feels that doing so would offer an opportunity for Obama's team to attack his wealth which is his weakest point. While everything that Romney earned might be legal, the ethics and details of how he accomplished it can be challenged.

Obama will face a difficult battle if he only runs on the issues. The economy is showing only slight signs of improvement and Obama's healthcare system is currently not all that popular. To win Obama needs to attack Romney and show that he would represent the views of the 1% far more than the 99%.

Politics is a dirty game and I feel this campaign has the potential of turning into one of the dirtiest campaigns in my lifetime. Romney played hardball in the Republican primary and Obama is a Chicago politician who is no pushover.

We are just at the beginning of the campaign. I predict that it will turn into a historic mud fight before it ends.




















senseandsensibility

(16,972 posts)
65. You made many well thought out, good points.
Sat Jul 14, 2012, 05:29 PM
Jul 2012

I don't disagree with any of them. I am not a cheerleader for Obama by any means, and have been quite critical of him. I really think he should have come out much stronger with less compromising from the beginning, and the healthcare bill was a big disappointment to me. That being said, there is no way that Romney's business record is a plus. He did outsource jobs and he does represent the one percent. That will not help our economy. In fact, his philosophy will make it worse.

Still, all of that was obvious to me without seeing any tax returns. So what else is in there?

spin

(17,493 posts)
70. If there is nothing seriously wrong hiding In Romney’s tax returns I feel he should release them …
Sun Jul 15, 2012, 05:56 AM
Jul 2012

Everybody knows that he is rich! If was in his position I would have released them long ago.

Even if there was some embarrassing information in the forms such as using legal loopholes to cut his tax bill to an absolute minimum, Romney could argue that he did nothing illegal and many other rich people do the same. He could say that he supports a flat tax which would eliminate many of the current deductions but could point out that he has in the past hired accountants who were skilled in finding all the legal loopholes just as many Americans do yearly.

He could also say that's why he supports a total revamping of the tax system and the change to a flat tax with far fewer loopholes if any. Like all other issues he has been both for and against a flat tax during his political career.

Paul, Cain and Romney: Loving the flat tax in the GOP

NATCHITOCHES, La., 31 October, 2011—Ron Paul and Herman Cain have something in common: They think income taxes should be flat. Mitt Romney envisions a flatter tax than we have and has even said, "I love a flat tax," but his final position on the subject remains indeterminate.
http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/stimulus/2011/oct/31/paul-cain-and-romney-loving-flat-tax-gop/


However in 1996 he had a different view.


Mitt Romney on Tax Reform
Former Republican Governor (MA); presidential nominee-apparent


***snip***

In 1995-96, Mitt seriously explored the possibility of taking on Kerry. Had he run and lost, his political career could have ended right there. However, he backed off when the popular GOP governor Bill Weld decided to challenge Kerry (Weld lost). Romney's most notable political action of the year may have been the series of full-page ads he took out during the 1996 primary election season blasting Republican presidential candidate Steve Forbes's "flat tax" proposal as unfair to the middle class.emphasis added
Source: An Inside Look, by R.B. Scott, p. 81 , Nov 22, 2011


But for members of the 1% there are numerous ways of avoiding taxes. Perhaps the information in Romney's tax returns would be so embarrassing and hard to explain that Romney feels that it would be foolish to reveal it when he wants to base his campaign on the state of the economy. He has to realize that he is no longer running against a bunch of second rate Republicans in a primary but against the most dynamic and charismatic politician that I have ever seen and that individual comes from Chicago.

How Chicago Politics Shaped Obama

by Michele Norris October 16, 2008

When Democrat Barack Obama began his run for the White House, he faced constant questions about his fortitude and his lack of experience in national politics: Is he tough enough? When attacked, will he cower or will he fight back?

***snip***

"I don't think he was naive by any means, and I think people are beginning to discover that there is nothing naive about him," says Delmarie Cobb, a longtime Chicago political operative.

Chicago, known as the "City of the Big Shoulders," is famous for its pugilistic politics.

"We always say there is a little bit of gangster in everybody who's from Chicago," Cobb says, adding it's a point of tremendous pride.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=95797455


Romney was playing in the minor leagues in the primary but now he has moved to the big league. While his wealth worked to his advantage against his underfunded opponents earlier this year he now will have to fight on a more level playing field. He ran a dirty campaign in the primaries and won but now he appears to want to run a clean campaign based on the issues. Perhaps he felt Obama would do the same as Obama based his last Presidential run on "Hope and Change."

The "Hope and Change" message worked well then but may be a losing strategy for Obama today. If the economy was actually showing signs of improvement it might work as Obama could say that he will be able to accomplish the promises he made in 2008 if given four more years. Explaining that the Great Recession was far deeper than anyone could have known and will just take more time to recover from it could lead to many voters supporting him once again.

Unfortunately the truth is the economy will show little if any true signs of improvement by election day. In my opinion Obama has to go negative to win. He is very adaptable and has an advantage in that Romney is a member of the elite rich 1% and in reality few if any of the members of that group are squeaky clean. All Obama has to do is to create voter distrust in what Romney would do help his rich friends at great cost to the middle class and the poor.

However if Obama does win using negative campaigning it might promote even more hatred between our two leading parties. We might well face another four years of intransigence from the Republicans in the House which they probably will still control. The Great Recession will probably drag along with little headway while both parties fight like the football teams in a Super Bowl. Our nation will become even more divided and our immediate future could be bleak.

I love following the Great Game of politics the same as I enjoy watching a football season that results in a good Super Bowl. Football is just entertainment but the political game effects all of our lives. The politics of today may or may not dramatically impact me as I now am elderly and probably approaching the end of my life but it WILL effect my grandchildren. Our situation now requires a truly great President. I voted for Obama once and will again but this time I hope he will live up to my expectations and unite our nation under his leadership. He has the ability and the potential and after four years I pray that he now has the experience.

Being a great campaigner and orator can win you an election against great odds but to be a great President requires unusual leadership skills. Experience is a great teacher and now Obama has the training necessary to become one of our few truly historically memorable Presidents if given a chance in his second term.

Franklin D. Roosevelt was elected four times and died in the fourth. Has he not been reelected after his first term, few people would remember him.




lolly

(3,248 posts)
71. More of the "both sides are doing it" nonsense
Sun Jul 15, 2012, 07:34 AM
Jul 2012

If Obama wins by negative campaigning, "it might promote even more hatred between our two leading parties."

Really? Where have you been the last 3 years?

lolly

(3,248 posts)
72. So, it's Obama's fault that the Republicans blocked everything?
Sun Jul 15, 2012, 07:39 AM
Jul 2012

If only he had used his magic oratorical skills, the Republicans would have been able to cooperate, but since he didn't, the entrenched obstructionism is all his own fault.

spin

(17,493 posts)
75. My point is ...
Mon Jul 16, 2012, 01:54 AM
Jul 2012

that Obama had and perhaps still has the oratory skills to rally support from the American people and force Congress to implement his programs.

Obama basically said the same thing in a recent interview with CBS news.


July 12, 2012 4:26 PM
Obama reflects on his biggest mistake as president

***snip***

"When I think about what we've done well and what we haven't done well," the president said, "the mistake of my first term - couple of years - was thinking that this job was just about getting the policy right. And that's important. But the nature of this office is also to tell a story to the American people that gives them a sense of unity and purpose and optimism, especially during tough times."

Mr. Obama acknowledged the dissonance between others' perception of his strength as an expert orator, and his own.

"It's funny - when I ran, everybody said, well he can give a good speech but can he actually manage the job?" he said. "And in my first two years, I think the notion was, 'Well, he's been juggling and managing a lot of stuff, but where's the story that tells us where he's going?' And I think that was a legitimate criticism."

Pressed by Rose about what he felt he needed to explain better to the American people, the president corrected that he wanted to do more "explaining, but also inspiring."
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57471351-503544/obama-reflects-on-his-biggest-mistake-as-president/


"Obamacare" is a good start but falls short of what was promised by Obama. It appears that while we will have a healthcare system that might cover more people it could be more expensive. We already have the most costly healthcare system in the world and it's far from the best. Perhaps a bit more leadership from Obama might have resulted in a better bill than the compromise we got. Fortunately it is possible to improve "Obamacare" in future years and eventually it might end up close to what I hoped for.

It is definitely true that the Republicans are opposed to any successes that Obama might accomplish. Obama promised to change the political environment in Washington and unite the nation. I thought he might succeed as he has "magic oratory skills" as you mentioned. I feel he failed because he didn't possibly didn't really try, was receiving bad advice or trusted far too much the Democratic leadership in the House and Senate during his first two years, not realizing the power of political lobbyists and how the money that they can deliver influences members of both parties. In reality I feel that it is fair to say that many members of both parties are bought and owned by the powerful rich corporations that actually have the power to win important issues for their benefit as their donations to the campaigns can lead to winners and losers. Obama had and perhaps still has the oratory skills to rally support from the American people and force Congress to implement his programs.

He might have also suffered from the fact that he was a politician from Chicago. Mayor Daley was the King of both the Windy City and Illinois. Unfortunately a President doesn't enjoy the same status. Being a President of the United States may make you the most powerful individual in the world, but to be effective it might also be the toughest job in the world. It is truly amazing how fast a person ages once in that office.

It is not my objective to be critical of Obama but to merely fairly appraise his first term in office from what I consider an unbiased view. I do not believe he lived up to all the promise I felt he had. I seriously felt that he might be one of our truly great Presidents. Perhaps he will accomplish that goal in his next term. Unfortunately he lost much of his opportunity during his first term and this election will be close despite the weaknesses of his opponent.

FDR was elected four times and now he is considered by most Americans as one of our best Presidents. Obama has only two chances to achieve that goal. In my opinion to do so he must develop far more leadership skills than he has currently displayed and to do so he must effectively use his bully pulpit to garner support from most American citizens.

I hope that Obama will be elected but to be honest I fear that his chances of accomplishing what I feel he is capable of is far more difficult than if he would have made headway in uniting both parties to compromise in his first term in office. I'm 66 years old and I have never seen a time during my lifetime when the two major political parties have absolutely refused to find common ground over any important issues. Obviously the Tea Party is largely responsible for this situation as they have caused the Republican party to become far more conservative.

We need a truly great President RIGHT NOW! He has to take on the 1% and the rich corporations that own and control many members of Congress. Such a President has to rise above the average individual who occupies that office for four or eight years and in order to do so he has to be a truly great leader. The President I hope for will fight both Democrats and Republicans in order to unite our nation. He will have a great vision for our future and will be able to accomplish it because of his leadership skills. Romney could never accomplish that goal but Obama has the potential to do so if he gets a second chance for four more years and actually works his heart out to accomplish that task. In reality I probably hope am hoping for the impossible and no human could accomplish what I wish.

In reality I probably am dreaming for the impossible and no human could accomplish what I wish.




















senseandsensibility

(16,972 posts)
46. But most (no, all) recent presidential candidates release several years of tax returns.
Sat Jul 14, 2012, 12:13 PM
Jul 2012

And I don't even remember any having to be coaxed to do so.

lolly

(3,248 posts)
73. That sounds like the most likely answer
Sun Jul 15, 2012, 07:40 AM
Jul 2012

Still--what gave him the idea that he could run for president without somebody asking for this info?

Historic NY

(37,449 posts)
53. Funny thing is he gave them to McCain 23yrs worth...
Sat Jul 14, 2012, 01:39 PM
Jul 2012

apparently he thinks a copy of those isn't sitting in OFA offices, just like the released copy of McCain op research. Somebody knows, somebody saw them, and Mitt knows.

TheKentuckian

(25,023 posts)
57. All of the above and possibly more, I reckon.
Sat Jul 14, 2012, 02:59 PM
Jul 2012

Weird Willard is an especially crooked and smarmy fuck, to the point the most TeaPubliKlans are repelled by him about as much as anybody else.

meow2u3

(24,761 posts)
64. He has to be hiding something severely illegal
Sat Jul 14, 2012, 05:25 PM
Jul 2012

Either he's evading taxes, laundering money for drugs and/or weapons, or funding terrorists. Or, as was previously posted, he could be an insider on the LIBOR scandal.

flamingdem

(39,312 posts)
69. That's true.
Sat Jul 14, 2012, 10:35 PM
Jul 2012

He's tied to death squads in El Salvador, just a hop and skip away from notorious terrorists really:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/01/28/444617/-Mitt-Romney-s-ties-to-El-Salvador-s-death-squad-backers

There are several articles about Romney's ties to the Poma family in El Salvador and others of the ilk.

--
Many here remember the tragedy of the support by the Reagan Administration for right wing, paramilitary death squads. Thugs, supported by the U.S. administration, often in spite of American law, in the name of "anti-communism," have given us a sordid legacy throughout Central America. Of course, part of the reason for this support was the profits derived from U.S. corporations and investors who were financially and ideologically tied to these regimes of brutality; Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney, a candidate who regularly invoked the holy Republican name of Reagan, is one such profiteer.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
68. I think Obama knows what's inside his tax returns
Sat Jul 14, 2012, 10:13 PM
Jul 2012

It wouldn't surprise me if the Obama campaign already has copies. Willard turned in dozens of years to McCain when he was trying to be his VP. McCain took a pass on Willard and I suspect it had a lot to do with those tax returns.

barbtries

(28,787 posts)
76. simple answer
Mon Jul 16, 2012, 01:58 AM
Jul 2012

the heat he's taking for not releasing them is a cool breeze compared to what will happen when/if he does release them. jmo

Jim__

(14,074 posts)
78. His Bain salary between 1999 and 2002.
Mon Jul 16, 2012, 05:14 AM
Jul 2012

We know it was more than $100,000/year. My guess is that it was in the millions. That would destroy his claim of non-involvement.

Quantess

(27,630 posts)
79. We are supposed to suspend our disbelief.
Mon Jul 16, 2012, 05:33 AM
Jul 2012

Bain just was really generous to their previous Papa. The new bosses of Bain thought Romney was such a great guy, they figured he deserved a $100,000+ salary for doing nothing.

customerserviceguy

(25,183 posts)
80. This was all over the Sunday talk shows
Mon Jul 16, 2012, 07:25 AM
Jul 2012

Even George Will nailed it: It's better to deal with the fallout from stonewalling than it is to deal with the fallout from what's in those tax returns.

 

RC

(25,592 posts)
81. Maybe he thought he was unemployed and thought he did not need to file?
Mon Jul 16, 2012, 10:37 AM
Jul 2012

You know, living in his son's basement isn't how well-to-do people normally live.

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