General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhen news broke of the terrorist who drove into the protesters...
my family was eating at a local restaurant which, owing to local demographics, generally runs Fox News on its half dozen tvs.
The sound was down, but the headline on the screen was "car drives into protesters."
Naturally, my family wondered whether "protesters" referred to the Nazis or to the people protesting against the Nazis.
It occurred to me in a flash: "The counter-protesters were hit," I said.
If the Nazis had been run down, the headline would have been something like Many injured as terrorist slams car into demonstrators. Fox News would assign blame, and they would inspire sympathy for the victims.
Instead, they downplayed and neutralized it: the car drove into protestors. No person is at fault; it's the car! The car didn't hit anyone; it drove into them (implying that they were in the way). And they weren't regular people; they were protestors.
Of course, Fox does this kind of stuff 24/7 (as when they "mistakenly" identify a Republican as a Democrat after her commits sex crimes, etc.) , so it's hardly surprising that they would continue their agenda of normalizing hatred and Rightwing terrorism.
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)If you want to help locally, ask the restaurant to turn off the lies of Fox News.
If they don't, publicly boycott them.
Walk in one day. Ask them to turn off Fox News because Fox News lies hurt America. If they refuse, ask to talk to the owner. Say the same to him. If he refuses, leave. Then write a letter to the local paper.
You can make a difference!!
Orrex
(63,191 posts)We eat there once every few weeks, and we're never the only customers in there.
Even during slow times there are always at least a dozen tables occupied, and (again, owing to local demographics and voting history) the restaurant is simply serving its majority customer base. If I asked the owner to change the channel, then 24 people would immediately ask the owner to change it back.
We like the restaurant, a mom & pop place, and the people who work there are great, so we accept this as an unfortunate and unavoidable part of living where we live.
If we wrote a letter to the paper saying that they wouldn't change the channel, we would increase their business beyond their ability to handle it.
Towlie
(5,324 posts)At least you could try a subtle hint like "Could you please switch channels to a news station?"
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)In my experience (and it may only be my experience), when you are telling people something like this it has to be direct. Otherwise they catch your meaning and sneer at you. You have to own an idea like this.
Cult experts also recommend to give people new information.
You can print out Tobin Smith's article on how Fox is staged
https://medium.com/@tobinsmith_95851/how-roger-ailes-fox-news-scammed-americas-la-z-boy-cowboys-for-21-years-1996ee4a6b3e
Or John Schindler's on how Fox helps Putin by repeating Russian lies.
Then give them the articles at the same time as you tell them you're leaving if they don't change the channel.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)That would leave most of the other customers feeling totally conflicted.
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)If you're not willing to call out Fox News' lies, who will be?
What I try to do is not support any business that supports Fox News.
The key to breaking through against Trump and American self-dealing autocrats is spreading the message that the GOP lies to America, specifically the GOP media like Fox. Many people in my experience have never even heard people say that Fox lies. Many still believe "fair and balanced".
If you're looking some day for something to do to contribute, this kind of action against Fox News will help us all.
Orrex
(63,191 posts)Nor do I have any patience for slogans about "single drops," etc.
If I have them change the channel, 23 other people will immediately say "turn it back."
If I protest in the paper, then the business will be swamped by Fox viewers eager to lend their support.
If I call for a boycott, they will likewise be swamped.
If I stop going there, then it will have no impact at all. They won't even notice my absence.
Practically speaking, I cannot accomplish anything of significance with this hypothetical protest of conscience. It would be a tremendous expenditure of energy for the sake of a meaningless and trivial non-victory.
Further, as I've noted already, your suggestion completely misses the point of the OP.
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)If the business gets more customers, that's fine. If they change the channel back, that's fine.
If you get people talking locally about whether Fox is propaganda -- that is a HUGE WIN for progressives and American values.
I think it's a hard thing to do, though, and not everyone is suited for this kind of thing. Everyone has to find their own way to help.
Orrex
(63,191 posts)Practically speaking, nothing I do will get people talking about Fox News as propaganda; they'll talk about the Liberal snowflake who can't go out in public without getting triggered. This restaurant is not a worthwhile venue for that discussion.
It was, however, a terrific opportunity for us to discuss the use propaganda with our 10 & 13 year old sons, and we did so. Again, that is the issue at hand; not the airing of Fox News by mom & pop businesses in Red counties.
Since--despite the advice of anonymous online explainers--I recognize that my protest here would be futile, I pursue others path, however minor.
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)I totally agree with your original point on Fox's lies of omission. No comment there.
I'm just at a phase where I'm trying to figure out what I can DO about Fox's lies.
Towlie
(5,324 posts)Bengus81
(6,931 posts)Orrex
(63,191 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)n/t.
Jake Stern
(3,145 posts)Lived in a small Missouri town and damn near every eatery in town has Fox on the teevee, including the pizzeria where I worked. Places that didn't have Fox going, had the local talk radio station on which blared Rush and Hannity and Savage all day. Sadly I had no car at the time so getting to the "big" town over 20 miles away meant tagging along when someone had to go up there.
Just had to learn to tune it out.
Alwaysna
(574 posts)Even in a cherry red town you can find democrats to associate with. There are probably more than you think . They aren't as "loud and proud" as the majority of redneck repubs are.
drmeow
(5,015 posts)"The news is so negative! Could the TV show sports or something else other than news?"
Orrex
(63,191 posts)Otherwise, the answer will almost certainly be "this is the channel that people want us to show."
PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,839 posts)Fox all the time because of requests for that channel. That would have been their decision in the first place.
I would not continue going to a restaurant that had that channel playing.
The other thing I don't get is why a restaurant, or any business at all, thinks it's necessary to have a TV on all the time. Sports bars, yeah, because they'll be showing sport.
I have complained at times in various waiting rooms. I've also been known to turn of the stupid TV if I'm the only one there, or if there are only one or two others and they're agreeable to the turn off.
Part of the enormous dumbing down of people is the perceived need to be watching TV all the time.
Yesterday I was waiting in a quite long line to order food to take home. Because the wait was so long, several of us got chatting. We fussed a bit about the slowness of the service, then moved on to discussing other restaurants in that part of the city that have closed. It made the wait go faster. And no TV was needed.
Orrex
(63,191 posts)This is the channel that now airs, and it is the channel that the local demographic prefers. It's a local business in a very Red Pennsylvania county, where Confederate flags are flown with pride. I suspect that the employees know who eats there.
drmeow
(5,015 posts)Answer cause you or someone you know has asked? A jocular comment to the waitstaff - "I hate seeing the news while I eat. I swear its gonna give me indigestion! Any way it can be changed to sports?" Might at least get you an "I'll ask." if the answer is no you can just grin and say you'll just have to try to sit with your back to it. If they do change the channel it is possible that the pro Fox people won't care as much as is assumed. Its not a "News bar" (like a sports bar) where people are coming there specifically for what's on the TVs. Especially since the sound is of as long as its not switched to something "librul" most people may not notice.
On the other hand, it does give you a relatively painless way to observe the enemy's propaganda
Orrex
(63,191 posts)Without getting into specifics, I can say that we've been going to this place for most of a decade, and we have a pretty good sense of the prevailing sentiment locally.
drmeow
(5,015 posts)Response to Orrex (Reply #3)
Maraya1969 This message was self-deleted by its author.
Orrex
(63,191 posts)Let me sit at the next booth while you give them that speech. I'd like to see how it turns out.
Maraya1969
(22,474 posts)just as shocked as the next person.
I don't mean to put you down by implying that you should not go there. I should not judge you. And it is not really about you but about the state of the entire country now and how upset I am about it.
Sorry
Orrex
(63,191 posts)I am amazed at the number of other replies that took it upon themselves to lecture me for my failure to be a good little Progressive, rather than recognizing the important opportunity we had to discuss propaganda with our children.
I do this all the time and It works some times. I will not eat at a restaurant if they have fox bullshit on the TV. Also hotels and stores. My goal is to not spend one god dam dime at republican leaning businesses .
aeromanKC
(3,322 posts)We refuse to patronize any establishment that has Fox on their TV's. Demographics be damned. They will NOT get our Money!!!
Orrex
(63,191 posts)However, we like the food, we like the staff, and we like the fact that it's a single-site locally-owned business.
My choice not to patronize the facility would have zero impact upon their choice of channel.
rickford66
(5,522 posts)Orrex
(63,191 posts)As I've noted, if I don't eat there, it will have zero effect upon the place. I know because we spend--at most--60 bucks a month at a place that does thousands of dollars in business daily. Mathematically my presence has no appreciable impact.
As I've also noted, if I decided to launch a big "look at me" protest against the restaurant's choice of programming, I would flood their establishment with local Fox viewers who would like nothing more than to tell off a Liberal while supporting a Fox-airing business.
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)The point is about Fox, not about the business.
If the business was flooded with new customers, that would cause a local media discussion about Fox. Which would help us and progressives and America - it would get the idea that Fox lies out into local public debate.
Everyone needs to contribute in their own way and maybe this isn't your way, but such an action would have only long-term positive effects. And if a locally owned business gets more business, good for them. It's not about the business anyway, it's about getting people talking about whether Fox is propaganda or not.
Orrex
(63,191 posts)And here, in this aging and very solidly Red county, I am strongly confident that the patrons will not worry themselves about whether or not a Liberal claims that Fox News lies. If anything, the will laugh about my snowflake triggers as they crank up the volume.
I appreciate everyone's effort to educate me as to The Right Thing To Do, but let me say again that any protest, boycott or campaign I might launch in this regard would have all the impact of writing a manifesto on a piece of toilet paper and flushing it.
luvtheGWN
(1,336 posts)and I know it doesn't make one iota of difference to their bottom line. I can't support a company that treats its American employees so shabbily, and then "sponges" off the taxpayers because their employees are paid so little that they're on government assistance (health, food stamps etc.).
I stopped going to Home Depot when I learned that the founder and chairman was a great friend of the Kochs and a major GOP supporter.
There are all sorts of different reasons for "boycotting" vendors whose behaviours conflict with one's ethical standards. But if Orrex can put up with a TV in a restaurant dining room, regardless of the station, and because he loves the food, then I'd say the owner, the other diners and (I presume) the rightwing folks in his town would simply say "Hey, go eat someplace else". And that would be perfectly understandable.
Atticus
(15,124 posts)Orrex
(63,191 posts)Because sometimes "it won't make a difference" is accurate correct.
Please give me enough credit to accept that I understand my community. I'm not speaking of Some Random TV In Some Random Business In Some Random Town. I'm talking about these specific TVs in this specific restaurant in this specific Trump-voting community.
Atticus
(15,124 posts)Orrex
(63,191 posts)So you don't accept it. What has your lack of acceptance led you to do, exactly?
What impact have you had?
Does it involve meaningless gestures re: pissing contests about a business' choice of channels to air? Or is is something more concrete?
Atticus
(15,124 posts)want to be specific because I don't want the knuckle draggers I live among to identify me as the person posting this. I think you might be able to understand that. But, I have very publicly and vocally opposed the racist and bigoted tripe that is just a part of living for those who live where I live. Yes, I have specifically asked that Fox be switched to MSNBC in a business full of "them".
Impact? Many people have quietly told me how happy they are that SOMEONE shares their views and says so publicly. A few of them now write LTEs to criticize Trump, the Tea Party, etc.
I do not intend to be condescending, but I also don't want to agree with your approach. It seems to be "go along to get along" and, while we all find ourselves doing that from time to time, I don't want to make a habit out of it. Being too comfortable in the midst of bigotry and injustice is, in my opinion, immoral---not principled pragmatism.
I've said all I intend to say. Have a good evening.
Orrex
(63,191 posts)However, the discussion at hand is not "let's all whip it out and compare our Progressiveness." The point was "Let me share a story of how we found an opportunity for us to discuss with our children the insidious nature of propaganda."
Predictably, there followed a parade of high-minded individuals (several with notably low post-counts) tripping over one another to declare that it would be impossible for them to eat at such a place, and I should have done this and I should have done that.
Further, every single one of them--including you--has dismissed my own understanding of the community where I've lived for 14 years. How fucking patronizing is that?
barbtries
(28,787 posts)you can let them know it's offensive to you. i have done this at a car repair shop in NC and a hotel in MT and the channel was changed. it was just assumed that it had to be that way. you can even recommend HGTV or the food channel and just get them off the news entirely.
you might easily not be the first. even there.
I am in a bigger city in NC and have and take the option of not frequenting places where they're streaming fox news. After watching the brainwashing of my dad yesterday my resolve is even more firm.
treestar
(82,383 posts)I would find it very unpleasant for a restaurant to be running the TV out loud - I suppose it is at least silent?
Orrex
(63,191 posts)You can read the crawl, but you can overlook it readily enough.
As mentioned elsewhere in the thread, our kids are more politically aware than I was at their ages, so the presence of Fox News, however vile, is always an opportunity to discuss the extremism of the Right.
And this restaurant has the best burgers in 20 miles, so there's that.
underpants
(182,734 posts)LeftishBrit
(41,205 posts)underpants
(182,734 posts)Timmygoat
(779 posts)To never eat at a place where FOX is on TV, our local fast food places always have it on, when I asked them to change the channel they told me they were not allowed to. Never went there again.
Orrex
(63,191 posts)Everyone except me would do the right thing and take their business elsewhere. Fine. Everyone is more progressive than I am. I get it.
The reason for the OP, however, is to discuss media spin, and somehow only one reply has understood this. It's a lot easier for everyone to jump up and and tell me how much more righteously they would choose their favorite lunchtime spot. I get it.
I'm happy to let people scold me for shamelessly dumping my money into Murdoch's pockets by way of the chicken sandwich I ordered yesterday, but for just one moment can we consider the actual point at hand?
cab67
(2,992 posts)I've been places where Fox 'News' was on. It ruined the experience for me. I never went back, not as a matter of protest but because I just didn't want to have to watch that shit.
Orrex
(63,191 posts)Since the volume is turned down, it's easy enough to ignore, and generally we do so.
If I avoided every business that broadcasts Fox in my town, I'd have to pick different convenience stores, retail stores, mechanics, doctors, grocery stores, hospitals and restaurants at the very least.
And your point about how Fox couched the headline was spot on.
redstateblues
(10,565 posts)Is on everywhere. Some of the posters on DU don't know what it's like to live in the reddest county in the reddest state. I can ignore it when the sound is down but I do avoid places where the sound is up.
Orrex
(63,191 posts)I can't say for sure that I'm the Reddest county, but a "Unite The Right" Nazi rally is happening here next month, so...
larwdem
(758 posts)If its on I get pissed off because, like a train wreck I must look. So fuck that.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)raccoon
(31,106 posts)tarheelsunc
(2,117 posts)bronxiteforever
(9,287 posts)Orrex
(63,191 posts)They're 10 and 13, and they are already far more politically conscious than I was by their age.
The younger son in particular is greatly interested in linguistic shenanigans like this, so he was eager to explore the implications of it.
This was a valuable opportunity for us, and I'm gratified that we were in a position to make use of it. Yes, as some high-minded souls have suggested, we could have engaged in a meaningless protest of conscience, but that would have accomplished nothing.
Instead, we got to have a discussion of the techniques of propaganda as they played out on-screen.
NJCher
(35,647 posts)as we like to call it in the education field.
There are probably many more available at that place for any future visits.
One might be how, for the most part, people cannot be persuaded. You seem aware of this point.
If people are persuaded (I'm going off academic research, plus over a decade as a maker of tv commercials), they return to their former position. In the persuasive arts, if you want to call it that, it's known as the rubber band effect.
Cher
malaise
(268,858 posts)Never had a doubt
Pholus
(4,062 posts)As you demonstrated, it's about HOW the news is presented in the framework of the ideology behind it.
When I was in college an old Russian refugee described how he got the news from Pravda -- just like you did.
He claimed that when read the right way, Pravda was pretty much the most accurate news source. Ideologues will attack the salient points against them directly rather than obscure it.
avebury
(10,952 posts)the Fox News crowd. If you know ahead of time when you are going to eat there pick a time when you know there is some big sporting event that will be televised. Instead of asking them to change the TV from Fox to a real news channel, ask them to change to the sporting event. Others will be less apt to ask that the TV be turned back to Fox because a lot of people like sports. They won't be smart enough to relalize that the real intent is to just get the TV off of Fox and you might reach your goal in a less confrontational manner. And if you can pick a time when it is a local sporting event that is even better because anyone else asking that the channel be turned would look like a heel.
I would recommend planning to dine out there based upon the tv sports schedule.
Pholus
(4,062 posts)Anything that disrupts the pervasiveness of the propaganda is a good thing!
appleannie1943
(1,303 posts)I immediately responded that no one was rioting, they were walking a couple blocks away from the campus where the demonstrators were and the car started a couple blocks away with a spin of tires and accelerated for two blocks picking up speed before plowing into people on purpose.
Orrex
(63,191 posts)He's very interested in (and aware of) cars, so when he saw the footage of a Challenger racing down the road, he knew immediately that this wasn't an innocent accident by well-meaning driver.
sarah FAILIN
(2,857 posts)And that he drove into the racists.
Facts and reality fly out the door when these insane people get caught. I really don't know what to say anymore to them. Trying to prove the truth to deluded people is futile.
Paladin
(28,246 posts)chia
(2,244 posts)That's a great catch and very perceptive observation on your part, but then you were an accidental viewer, not the average FOX viewer who wouldn't even pick up on it.
My next thought would be that the writers and commentators at FOX knew exactly what they were doing, but these days, I'm not so sure - maybe they've drunk the Kool-Aid for so long that they really are that self-deceived. I don't know.
Orrex
(63,191 posts)Your second paragraph makes a good observation--the writers may be programmed to the point that they engage in spin by reflex at this point.
DallasNE
(7,402 posts)This was probably all the authorities were telling them at first. It was only when they got people on the scene and the cell video surfaced showing the actual ramming that clarity emerged.
Orrex
(63,191 posts)They kept the headline even while they were showing the video of the car.
DallasNE
(7,402 posts)I can now agree with you.
Orrex
(63,191 posts)Different Drummer
(7,612 posts)One morning not long ago, I was flipping back and forth between CNN. MSNBC and Fox to see what each of them were discussing. Both CNN and MSNBC were all over the Russia investigation. At the same time, Fox was reporting on an issue of national importance--summer water safety.
We all already know this, but I'll say it. When it comes to the Repubs, Fox plays up anything positive while sweeping anything negative under the rug. They reverse this process with the Dems. How anyone can seriously think they are getting the straight story on national/international events from Fox, I don't know.
csziggy
(34,135 posts)Which was total bullshit since the videos of the scene were available almost immediately. In particular Brennan Gilmore's video from down the road showed that the car rammed into the crowd after accelerating for some distance.
The drone video shows that the other two vehicles were at a standstill when the Dodge Challenger hit them after plowing throw the crowd.
MyOwnPeace
(16,925 posts)What difference can that make?
"One day, an old man was walking along a beach that was littered with thousands of starfish that had been washed ashore by the high tide. As he walked he came upon a young boy who was eagerly throwing the starfish back into the ocean, one by one.
Puzzled, the man looked at the boy and asked what he was doing. Without looking up from his task, the boy simply replied, Im saving these starfish, Sir.
The old man chuckled aloud, Son, there are thousands of starfish and only one of you. What difference can you make?
The boy picked up a starfish, gently tossed it into the water and turning to the man, said, I made a difference to that one!
Orrex
(63,191 posts)Last edited Sun Oct 8, 2017, 09:44 AM - Edit history (2)
They are fucking worthless except as faux-significant spiritual masturbation.
And I got news for you--that starfish almost certainly perished along with all the thousands of others.
Would the assembled readership please do me the courtesy of accepting that I understand my community in a way that the readers, seated hundreds of miles away, probably do not?
MyOwnPeace
(16,925 posts)the fact that you don't have the courage or commitment to take a stand for your own convictions or beliefs if it would interfere with something else in your life or leave you uncomfortable.
And what does that teach your children, with or without parables or spiritual masturbation?
Orrex
(63,191 posts)Yes, I could have taught them how to get kicked out of a restaurant for no fucking reason whatsoever except to appease a bunch of anonymous internet busybodies. Would that have satisfied you and your 20/20 hindsight? Because it would have served no other net purpose except to humiliate my children.
Instead, I chose to discuss the nature of propaganda, which I hope even you will agree is also a useful lesson.
Mind your own fucking business, and keep your masturbation and pithy slogans to yourself.
CanSocDem
(3,286 posts)Lifelong Protester
(8,421 posts)I've done that, everyone talks about the weather.
bucolic_frolic
(43,120 posts)ends. the. conversation.
Skittles
(153,138 posts)and I'd let them know
Jake Stern
(3,145 posts)As I posted above I once lived in a dark cherry red area of an already red state. Asking them to change the channel from fox or talk radio would have just got them to laugh and jack up the volume. Compound that by living in a very small, very conservative town without a car and believe me making waves was not a good idea. My now ex wife absolutely REFUSED to move away from her hometown and so I was stuck there until our divorce.
If some of these posters want to put their necks out and take a stand by all means go ahead.