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TygrBright

(20,758 posts)
Mon Aug 14, 2017, 02:46 PM Aug 2017

I'm glad I'm not an ACLU attorney.

The ACLU are the ones who defend the rights of disgusting vile people to say cowardly, revolting things.

They're pretty busy right now.

There's a great deal of discussion going on, and more to be had, about the degree of protection the First Amendment offers to the white supremacist demonstrators scuttling out of the woodwork in America, and about how conscientious officers of the Court- including law enforcement- can provide that protection and balance it against protection of the greater community from the effects of the hate they are monging and the violence they are inciting.

These are not simple issues in Constitutional law, and they are not simple for the officers of the Court charged with upholding the Constitution.

Among the people who will be having very difficult choices to make are public officials whose jobs include ensuring that all citizens have access to public spaces to assemble and express themselves, and officials of entities that are not necessarily public, but covered by various Federal rules related to ensuring Constitutionally-protected freedoms. A lot of higher education institutions have to walk that line.

There's a whole minefield's worth of questions to be asked about what officers of the Court can and can't do, Constitutionally, to restrict particular aspects of any given demonstration. They're having to consider not just the repulsiveness of the specific views being expressed, and the various displays associated with those views, but how any rule or requirement they might impose would affect others expressing other views. Including counter-demonstrators and those who might in some future time protest vigorously against government actions like the Muslim Ban, the construction of a border wall, the ongoing DAPL protests, and so on.

It looks simple to me: Assholes wearing flak vests and carrying shield and guns and gas masks, etc., are signaling that they want violence. They want to perpetrate it against others or incite it against themselves for their own purposes. Therefore, ban that shit, and say "only allow unarmed and unarmored people to attend protests."

Except that cops have been known to gas peaceful protesters of all kinds. I might want a gas mask myself, for certain expressions of free speech. If I were counter-protesting armed dickheads, I might consider wearing a flak jacket, too.

Any rule that can be used against people whose views I oppose can be used against people whose views I agree with.

And depending on who's administering the rules (remembering that right now we have a Confederate House Elf as Chief Officer of the Court) that can be a powerful problem.

If I were an ACLU attorney, I'd be thinking about all of that.

It is not, by a long chalk, the first time this sort of dilemma has arisen. But it may well be the first time it has arisen when we are walking a knife edge between having wannabe tyrants pushing the boundaries and wannabe tyrants enforcing those boundaries.

So today, I'm sending another donation to the ACLU.

They're going to need all the help they can get.

somberly,
Bright

19 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
I'm glad I'm not an ACLU attorney. (Original Post) TygrBright Aug 2017 OP
You have to admire the ACLU atreides1 Aug 2017 #1
We're members of the ACLU, rejoined the day after Rump was elected. Hortensis Aug 2017 #2
Excellent links! Thank you for posting. TygrBright Aug 2017 #6
"The Fight Is On!" :) Hortensis Aug 2017 #8
Come take a stand against hate tonight HAB911 Aug 2017 #3
Heads up, NY DUers! Great opportunity, thanks for posting. n/t TygrBright Aug 2017 #7
The ACLU was instrumental in getting NAZIs permission to march in Skokie... PoliticAverse Aug 2017 #4
Yes. Free speech is free speech. Yours WOULD be quashed if theirs' could be. Hortensis Aug 2017 #5
Free speech is protected so long as it's not inciting violence against others. haele Aug 2017 #9
I believe you have stated the consensus herein. Speech, protected; violence or its incitement, not. WinkyDink Aug 2017 #11
Exactly. :) Hortensis Aug 2017 #15
I am in complete agreement with you, my dear haele! CaliforniaPeggy Aug 2017 #12
Please help him find where the ACLU defended genuinely inciting violence Hortensis Aug 2017 #14
I think you're mistaken. CaliforniaPeggy Aug 2017 #18
Apologies to those I thought agreed with those who see the ACLU through red lenses. Hortensis Aug 2017 #19
The ACLU's sole client is the US Constitution Gothmog Aug 2017 #10
Exactly so. n/t TygrBright Aug 2017 #17
Right now I'm too angry to be rational. alarimer Aug 2017 #13
Don't worry. Plenty of people will be searching on face shots to try to identify them. Hortensis Aug 2017 #16

atreides1

(16,072 posts)
1. You have to admire the ACLU
Mon Aug 14, 2017, 02:51 PM
Aug 2017

The simple fact, that they would defend organizations that would murder them and their families, is admirable!

Of course it's also stupid!

Just because it's legal, doesn't mean it's right!!!

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
2. We're members of the ACLU, rejoined the day after Rump was elected.
Mon Aug 14, 2017, 03:01 PM
Aug 2017

We'd let our membership lapse for a few years but knew demand for their services was going to explode. Why not head over to the national website (or your state branch's) and find out what they're doing these days? Be sure to check the long list of under the ISSUES tab and then the lists of specific issues under each of those to understand the battles engaged in.

Become a Freedom Fighter — Join the ACLU

ACLU Supporters
Over 1.6 million people support the ACLU.

People across the country are coming together to stand up for what they believe is right.

Take a stand for what you believe in. Join the ACLU today. With your help we can:
•Push back against xenophobia
•Defend free speech and the right to protest
•Fight relentless attacks on reproductive freedom

Join the ACLU & help protect our hard-won rights

https://www.aclu.org/


Join People Power - ACLU's Grassroots Volunteer Resistance Movement
ACLU is leading a new charge

Across the country, there is a growing army of people who are alarmed by what they’re seeing coming out of the Trump administration. People see his Muslim ban for the unconstitutional religious discrimination that it is, and they want to get involved — to protect their neighbors from deportation raids and stand against this administration’s repeated attacks on civil rights.

That’s why we created the People Power platform.

People Power is, at its core, a grassroots member-mobilization project. Through People Power, the ACLU will engage volunteers across the country to take action when Trump or his administration attempt to enact unconstitutional policies or trample on people’s constitutional rights. By mobilizing in defense of our civil liberties, volunteers will build local communities that affirm our American values of respect, equality, and solidarity.

For 98 years, the ACLU’s defended our Constitution in the courts. Now, we’re going to couple that legal power with People Power — and take our fight to the streets.

TygrBright

(20,758 posts)
6. Excellent links! Thank you for posting.
Mon Aug 14, 2017, 03:13 PM
Aug 2017

I hope many DUers find new ways to participate and promote the ACLU's work.

appreciatively,
Bright

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
5. Yes. Free speech is free speech. Yours WOULD be quashed if theirs' could be.
Mon Aug 14, 2017, 03:12 PM
Aug 2017

Think about it. Many on the right these days are convinced Democrats created terrorism. We must be silenced?

Nothing is more helpful to the forces of evil than citizens on the left joining those on the right to bury the organizations that fight daily to protect all our rights. Did you know the ACLU has local organizations doing battle in every state?

Among a long list of other battles, our Georgia ACLU is currently fighting my state's effort to purge my husband and I from the voting list. Us and over 590,000 others who allegedly didn't vote in the last 3 years. I didn't expect to receive the notice I was reading about on line because my husband and I have been conscientious voters ever since we moved to the state a bunch of years ago now. But we did.

haele

(12,647 posts)
9. Free speech is protected so long as it's not inciting violence against others.
Mon Aug 14, 2017, 03:22 PM
Aug 2017

The Nazis can explain their "White Supremacy" all they want in public.
They can march and show the pride of telling others how much history they're ignorant of.
They can complain about how they no longer automatically have the few extra points of privilege the color of their skin, their gender, and the church they went to gave them when competing for jobs and education - because of the assumption that they were part of the Normal Majority.
I've got no problems with the ACLU protecting their right to whine in the public square that their precious little snowglobe society is now broken and they have to live in the real world with everyone else if this country is going to remain sustainable.
Just as I've got no problems with the ACLU protecting the rights of people to debate those positions, or to march in counter protest - as loudly as they feel is necessary.

I do have a problem when anyone starts in with boots, bottles, sticks, or firearms. Or cars. And I have a problem when organizations have speakers actively promote initiating violence against people who disagree with them.


Haele

 

WinkyDink

(51,311 posts)
11. I believe you have stated the consensus herein. Speech, protected; violence or its incitement, not.
Mon Aug 14, 2017, 03:26 PM
Aug 2017

And there one has it.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
14. Please help him find where the ACLU defended genuinely inciting violence
Mon Aug 14, 2017, 03:30 PM
Aug 2017

as "free speech" then.

Neither of you will be find anything of the sort.

What you will find is plenty of cases where corrupt local governments tried to railroad peaceful activists into prison on trumped-up charges of inciting violence. Just within the past couple years, in fact. But don't be distracted--you're not looking for THOSE.

CaliforniaPeggy

(149,588 posts)
18. I think you're mistaken.
Mon Aug 14, 2017, 03:46 PM
Aug 2017

Haele (she, BTW) is not saying that the ACLU defends inciting violence. She is saying that the ACLU defends the right to say anything you want as long as it doesn't incite violence.

She also said this: And I have a problem when organizations have speakers actively promote initiating violence against people who disagree with them. She is not talking about the ACLU here.

And please stop with the innuendo that we are not looking for the truth......because we are.


Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
19. Apologies to those I thought agreed with those who see the ACLU through red lenses.
Mon Aug 14, 2017, 03:51 PM
Aug 2017

Need to read more carefully. I agree entirely with you, Haele.

alarimer

(16,245 posts)
13. Right now I'm too angry to be rational.
Mon Aug 14, 2017, 03:29 PM
Aug 2017

I support the ACLU most of the time, but I want those fucking Nazis to face life-altering consequences for even showing up at one of those "rallies". Naming and shaming (assuming they are capable of shame) is all the rest of us can do. Publicize their behavior, report their activities on Facebook and Twitter, cancel their website domains. Refuse to work with them, if you know any of your coworkers marched. Or maybe report them to HR for every single petty infraction you can think of that is a violation of workplace policies, stuff like that.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
16. Don't worry. Plenty of people will be searching on face shots to try to identify them.
Mon Aug 14, 2017, 03:36 PM
Aug 2017

Not just local and state police and FBI, but employers, family and acquaintances who suspect they may know someone there. Only a few were at least careful enough to wear ski masks and bandannas, and really, those bandannas leave so much exposed...

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