I want to ask a serious question about DU's tolerance of anti-Nazi speech

[ProudLib72]

I have seen a lot of posts about how America killed Nazis during WW2. I think the intent is to say that at least some amount of violence (maybe even killing?) is tolerable. On the other hand, there have been a lot of posts about needing to avoid violent confrontation, even ignoring the Nazis completely.

To be honest, I could go either way. I am struggling between anger and rational response. But the conversations on here are confusing me. I really do not know if my level of anger is appropriate. So I want to gather some ideas about what is appropriate. Maybe this is a dumb (or weird) idea. However, I feel like there may be some others in the same boat. Look, at least we can agree that we have reached a point where our conversation is well beyond average DU expectations and forum rules are being bent. That is not to say that, in this instance, those rules can't be bent. I'm just saying that it is becoming very confusing.

[Squinch]

1. Really?

[leftstreet]

2. What is your question again?

[ProudLib72]

5. Let's just say I'm confused by DU

There are OP posts referencing killing Nazis in WW2 and equating that with how we should approach them today. This obviously violates the forum rules. However, there seem to be a fair number of posts like this, none of which are taken down or contain posts condemning them. So I'm not sure how to take all this. I'm asking if Nazis are fair game now on DU. Can we talk about beating them up (we are already)? If so, does that mean that things have reached such a state that even DU condones violence?

[leftstreet]

10. Stop. You're wrong

There are OP posts referencing killing Nazis in WW2 and equating that with how we should approach them today.

No

There have been a couple threads about internet memes equating Trump's pejorative descriptions of protestors against fascism, specifically WWII.

No one on DU is suggesting anyone 'kill' the white power freaks. If you see someone do that, alert on their post

[HopeAgain]

3. I am not prepared to condone any violence other than self-defense.

As far as the alt-right Nazis, they are still an insular group even if the President represents them. But they want violence "from all sides" to justify their violence.

[Adrahil]

17. Keep in mind...

It isn't a mystery what Nazis do when they get in power.

Frankly, acting against Nazis IS an act of self defense.


Now I am not advocating going act and killing Nazis now. But bear in mind that these people will wreak horrible violence if it is with their power to do so. We cannot allow them to get that power under any circumstances.

[shraby]

27. What you said Adrahil. They are violent to the extreme. They need to be held accountable

in the courts for their behavior. Every time they get caught breaking the law.

[Weekend Warrior]

4. I believe I see what you are saying.

I'm currently trying to work my way through similar thoughts. My only difference is that DU has no part in my self finding mission in this are.

[bpj62]

6. I will take a swing at your question

183,000 Americans were killed in the Atlantic/European theatre during WWII. The sentiment being expressed on DU by many is that many Americans fought and died to stop facism and 75 yeasrs later we are dealing with Nazism on our own shores.

[ProudLib72]

11. I am struggling with the conflation of German Nazis and American Nazis

Are they the same? If so, then we need to annihilate them. Gun them down. At least suspend the first amendment and lock them up. See the problem? We are battling the same damned fascism, and our precedent for winning the battle is to wage all out war.

[ananda]

7. I think anger is completely justified.

But rational thinking must win the day in the end
because we need to stay focused and alive to
make a difference.

[ProudLib72]

8. That's what I think as well

But reading all these extreme posts makes me believe I should just let myself go. It may be time for some critical moderating (at least self-moderating!).

[Caliman73]

9. People are very driven by their emotions right now.

I personally see violence as a last resort, if your life or the lives of loved ones and innocents are threatened. I have seen enough violence in my life to not want to engage in it unless absolutely necessary for said survival. Many people feel like that time is now, with White Supremacists ramping up violent activity.

I do think that advocating of killing, even tossing out phrases like, "the only good Nazi is a dead one" is too much and I am wondering if people who state that have ever been close to taking a life or seeing someone die violently. I completely understand the sentiment, and I am not advocating doing nothing or ignoring the issue and hoping it goes away. I do think that violence only begets more violence and we need to, as you say, be rational.

[sinkingfeeling]

12. I don't believe anyone on DU is advocating killing neo-Nazis. Many of us are

reminded that our parents or grandparents fought the fascists in WWII. I grew up in the 1950s and was taught that Hitler and fascism were evil. I believe that today.
So, while I do not wish violence, I will continue to make known my total disgust with these white nationalists, KKK, and neo-Nazi punks and do all in my power to make them crawl back under their rocks.

[bpj62]

18. Virginia Native

I was born in Virginia and I still live here. I drove through Charlottesville on my way home from my in laws house last Sunday and every one of us was thinking about what happened the day before. I do not advocate violence for the sake if violence. However I cannot condone hate speech and that Is exactly what was being spoken by the White Nationalists on Friday and Saturday. Hate Speech Is not protected speech and they must pay a price when they talk that way. Deny them the forum and they will retreat back To their chat rooms.

[WinkyDink]

13. World War II was, you know, a WAR. It's different from peacetime. Still confused?

[ProudLib72]

19. So no fascism existed until Germany invaded Poland?

Need I go into all the threads comparing tRump and Hitler's rise to power? The context of comparison dates from the early 30s till after 1945.

[Bradshaw3]

14. I'm right there with you on mixed feelings

Feelings of anger and a desire to retaliate are understandable based on what is going on but we are not at a point yet where we are in danger of totally losing our democracy. It is threatened for sure but I believe that right now peaceful demonstrations and the ballot box are the way to go.
Also, I made a thread the other day about how our government has historically reacted to left wing violence compared to right-wing (white power) violence - surprise the latter has been much, much greater and often sanctioned by the state while the lesser threat of left wing violence is clamped down on harshly. Therefore, reacting in kind will only give this "presidency" the reason it wants to be more repressive.

[ProudLib72]

22. I posted the story about how in 1931 a US general said Mussolini ran over a child

The general got in huge trouble, got placed under arrest and court martialed all for making our big buddy Mussolini look like a bad guy.

https://bennorton.com/vanderbilt-and-mussolini-on-a-murderous-joyride-a-synecdoche-for-the-us-relationship-to-fascism/

[louis c]

15. silence is consent

If you do not stand against Fascism, you are complicate.

[FSogol]

16. Everyone is worried about the nazis, you're worried about Democrats

[ProudLib72]

20. That is funny!

Yes, I'm worried about the Dems controlling the librul media and spreading fake news about Nazis being the bad guys.

[Snake Plissken]

21. This is why Democrats keep losing losing elections.

You are literally going out of your way to find something to blame Democrats for. If you're not angry about Heather Heyer being murdered by a Nazi terrorist and the President of the United States trying to blame her equality for her death because he is a soulless piece of shit, I really don't know what to tell you.

[ProudLib72]

23. How in the hell am I blaming Democrats?

Show me where I am blaming?

[Snake Plissken]

26. If I misunderstood you I apologize,

I thought you were trying to suggest the tolerance of the anti Nazi sentiment should be questioned.

[ProudLib72]

29. I'm questioning how far we are allowed to go on DU

Mainly because I have anger issues and it's difficult for me to tell sometimes what is justifiable.

[Warren DeMontague]

24. You don't understand why we went to war against the Nazis?

Or you don't understand why we're not sending sherman tanks and amphibious vehicles against these pindicked LARP'ers, today?

[ProudLib72]

32. Why aren't we sending tanks against the LARPers.

Well, more like, Is DU as a whole ok with sending tanks against the LARPers. I come to DU to get a handle on my own emotions. DU is usually good at tempering my anger. It puts things in context and offers hope.

[JonLP24]

25. I think the intent is that they are going around calling those on the left "anti-American"

but are waving Nazi & Confederate flags. I think the point was they are aligning themselves with anti-American groups or that is just my point of view anyway.

[PubliusEnigma]

28. Concernaganza!

[Historic NY]

30. I have no tolerence.........

we killed enough 70+ yrs ago apparently the job isn't finished.

[hueymahl]

33. Only good nazi is a dead nazi

Not my quote, but truer words never spoken.

[lunasun]

34. I don't think it is rational to ignore them. Advocating for violence is a different issue . Should I

support someone yelling Nazi go home, All you need is love, No Nazis etc. at Nazis on the march? That kind of confrontation to me is OK and meeting them with peace or put downs is a personal option. Counter protest is a right to protest.

I hope neither side gets violent just the Nazis outnumbered and shouted down, lose thier energy and lose thier leader trump.
I wish more people would take a stand and reject and shame them back under thier rocks. It's harder to appeal and recruit hiding under a rock rejected and shunned by most citizens
Better outcome than violence I think is for society to turn on the Naxis enough to feel the distain
This may include reference to history where violence was needed because they got so powerful , but in actuality it's more a warning of what could come if not stopped now IMO than a call to repeat the actual violent action.
Actual violent attacks if that happened,will stop people from coming together to resist the nazis
They can't be helped to look like the victims. I know it's hard to be a hatefilled Nazi and claim victim but they will try I have no doubt . Don't forget there are active Nazis , and then there are Nazi sympathizers

[ProudLib72]

35. These are some very good points

I think the point about tRump leading them is the most important. I would say that, without him, we wouldn't need to worry about the rest of your points. However, at this stage, it appears that everyone does need reminding. I also fear that the Nazi movement has become strong enough that it can continue under its own power if they lose tRump.

[lunasun]

36. I just edited my post to add it's harder to appeal and recruit when hiding under a rock rejected and

shunned by the majority of citizens . People need to speak out against them and call out thier past atrocities or they will get stronger and grow.