Is Counterprotesting Effective? Maybe not

[PNW-Dem]

I think the best way to deal with these hate groups is to ignore them. This might not be a popular statement, but they are desperate for attention so why give it to them?

The hate groups that marched on Charlottesville are clearly on the losing end of a decades-long battle. They seem like a bunch of disaffected, paranoid losers. Their chants were stupid, “You will not replace us”. Nobody is out to replace you, dumbass. I almost feel sorry for them, as most probably need professional help. Like the quote from that 1985 Loretta Swit movie, “these are guys who reached out for the American dream and came up with a beer in one hand and their dick in the other”.

I am so disappointed at how the MSM has given the hate groups 24/7 coverage. In hindsight, think about what would have happened if the hate groups marched and no one came to see them. It would have been the non-event that it should be. Did counterprotesting help fuel this?

[dembotoz]

1. All that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing

[MosheFeingold]

16. Worse, however, is doing the wrong thing.

As I said before, only a rookie meets his enemy on his enemy's chosen field of battle.

The street fight is a Brown Shirt's home turf.

Protest elsewhere, work elsewhere.

[dembotoz]

21. worst is doing nothing

[workinclasszero]

35. /thread

Nothing more needs to be said.

[jmg257]

2. Let's see what happens - will the side of hate grow, or the side protesting against them?

Obviously they have become more and more emboldened lately, so they are not just disappearing no matter how little the rest of us pay attention to them.

Are they losers? For their ideology - sure. But these people getting fired from their jobs and positions once they are exposed aren't kids hanging out in their mom's basements.

[raging moderate]

3. We tried that in the thirties. Result: World War II.

I do see what you mean, and I agree with your wish to ignore these people. If only that would work. But we have tried the whole ignore-them-rise-above-set a better example idea, and it didn't work. And not only for the Nazi bunch but also for the KKK and before that the proslavery and manifest destiny genocide crowds. These people want to do "ethnic" and "racial" cleansing (which turns out to be mass murder and grand theft). When we are silent, they assume that we secretly agree with them and will let them do what they want. The little bullies swaggering with torches are not the main force; they are only the most visible sign of white supremacy. They have powerful rich people backing them and fueling their efforts. I don't know what the answer is. I have been in many demonstrations, especially in my youth. I am not sure it really worked. But we have to do something.

[PNW-Dem]

13. Thank you for your thoughtful comments

I was asking a sincere question and you provided some good insight.

[MosheFeingold]

42. Am I the only one left alive from WWII?

"We tried that in the thirties. Result: World War II."

Nope. ANTIFA (and variations thereof) met the fascists in violent and escalating street protests until such time as the normal people turned to the fascists for order.

And, each time, the fascists won, starting in Italy, then Spain, then Germany.

Playing the enemy's game is stupid.

[Rhiannon12866]

47. Thank you for the reminder...

[MosheFeingold]

59. Those ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it.

And people are falling into the fascists' trap once again. There are not enough real neo-nazis in the USA to fill a good sized trailer part. And half the KKK members are either FBI or FBI informants.

It's a cartel that traffics in meth, underage women, and car parts. The racist crap is just for the idiot foot soldiers.

Battling them in the streets will make them stronger.

(This is an acknowledgement of the post below yours, as well.)

[Duppers]

56. Yes, thank you.

[Persondem]

60. A very simplistic outlook.

"Nope. ANTIFA (and variations thereof) met the fascists in violent and escalating street protests until such time as the normal people turned to the fascists for order. "

While a desire for order may have played a small part in the success of the fascists in those countries, it was far from THE reason. Spain had a full blown civil war; in Italy fascists started out with violence and only a few on the left responded with the same. Russia didn't go fascist and there was certainly a ton of unrest in the post Romanoff years.

Many countries in the post Versailles world had chaos and strife and ONLY those countries you mentioned went fascist. The UK, France and the USA all had prominent fascist movements which were defeated by the opposition.Also, I do not think you meant to but your comments denigrate the efforts of anti fascist resistance efforts during the war. Resistance fighters helped the allied cause immensely.

"And, each time, the fascists won, starting in Italy, then Spain, then Germany." ... No, the ONLY time the fascists won was in Italy, Spain and then Germany.

[doodsaq]

4. I have an idea for a counterprotest

Set up an array of PA equipment along the sidelines of their planned march and blast them with high decibel music. Katy Perry, Lady Gaga, or whatever else to torture them. Drown them out. Distribute earplugs for all the counterprotestors.

I imagine it would be hard for the nazis to drag a ton of equivalent equipment to try the same thing.

[Yonnie3]

7. A loud PA was in place on top of a building facing the park.

It was not a loud as you say you would like, because it would be wrong for us to provide a system that would injure anyone. It would have made it very difficult for them to make any speeches that would have been heard. Absolutely no one in the area would provide the white supremacists any sort of audio equipment.

Their rally did not get far enough to have any speeches. As soon as they violated their permit and agreements with law enforcement they were kicked out of the park.

[gratuitous]

30. When the protesters showed up at our pride parade

A few of the usual handful of idiots showed up last year with their signs and a bullhorn. The crowd left them alone, forming a human cordon around them so they could have a safe space. But every time the head idiot keyed his bullhorn to say something the crowd erupted in cheers and applause until he keyed off. There was nothing they could do; watching their impotent display was hilarious.

[Atticus]

5. Most of America is not protesting or counter-protesting. They are watching. If they see these

nazis and klansmen parading in our streets and screaming their hateful bigotry WITHOUT ANY OPPOSITION OR OBJECTIONS, they will conclude that "it's OK". And, gradually, the racist memes become "facts" and blind hatred and senseless violence become acceptable.

We MUST oppose these bottom feeders or lose our nation's soul.7

[Yonnie3]

14. I agree

My wish is that they could just be ignored as irrelevant. Early on, some GOP politicians made sure that they couldn't. The media also made sure they couldn't be ignored.

I am a veteran of protests. Gone is the day where handing the riot police flowers, passive resistance, sit ins and civil disobedience are effective tools. In those days the protests were to directly change government actions.

Now we seem to be in some sort of proxy battle. The white supremacists, KKK and Nazis and the not so tacit approval of some members of government on one side and reality on the other. There are all sorts of agendas, some transparent and some hidden. I personally believe that the white supremacists et. al. are "useful fools" in hidden power games with some in our government normalizing their beliefs and action.

Remarkable restraint was shown by the counter protesters as some of the alt-right would leave their assigned area and push through the counter protesters and reenter the park. I think that the alt-right was trying to start a riot. They failed. I've seen media calling this a riot. Nope. There were fights for sure, but no riot.

The citizens of Charlottesville rose up and made sure the alt-right was unwelcome. The chant in the crowd was initially "Not in my city" and later "My street." The alt-right showed up and was shown the exit. This must happen everywhere.

[politicat]

43. Thank you.

I want all of our protests to be peaceful. I want them to be safe spaces for children and the elderly, for the medically fragile and the legally precarious. I want everyone participating in demonstrations to come out, enjoy the solidarity, stand strong, and go home energized.

We're past that point. Passive resistance and civil disobedience are effective tools, and they're a critical part of the tool chest, but neither passive resistance nor civil disobedience are strictly in the realm of pure demonstration. We're now in the range of passive-aggressive resistance: when we occupy a space and will not be moved, when we stand shoulder to shoulder and force the opposition to either retreat or start a fight. Now's the time to start glitterbombing, throwing color powder, playing Yakkity Sax or March of the Elephants over the bullhorns, when we bring out the bagpipers.

We must recognize that the opposition will target the most vulnerable amongst our body -- they will go after children, the elderly and small people. We can hate it. We can be disgusted by it. We should be. But we must not let them harm our children, elderly, vulnerable, and fragile, and that means some of us will be on the front line, holding it there.

But staying home and ignoring them is the worst possible strategy. I get the idea -- you don't indulge a tantrum with attention -- but when the tantrum turns into assault, it's imperative to interfere and remove the tantruming child before they damage another person.

[Yonnie3]

45. No need for thanks.

I was out of town during the demonstrations. Months before I made a commitment to be out of town and kept it. I would not have been at the park because I am old and unfortunately cannot walk fast or long. I would be a liability to the counter protesters. I might have been on top of the adjacent building with our sound equipment or at home.

It's cool not participating directly in protests and especially volatile counter protests. I am not saying stay home and ignore them. Support the demonstrators. Give money for water and first aid supplies. Be a point of contact for people you know who are going. It is very useful to have some one outside the area in touch. Send them information that you know is correct, because things can become very contusing at the demonstration. Tweet, raise hell on Facebook. Dozens of people parked and left their cars in downtown Charlottesville to deny the alt-right parking spaces, they risked their car, not their health. I'm sure there are many more things I can't think of at the moment.

I'm not wanting to feel as if I have pushed anyone into a difficult situation.

[LanternWaste]

6. The counter-protest forced both a conversation about racism

The counter-protest forced both a conversation about racism, and the unmasking of racist sentiments held by those in the highest seats of power.

The counter-protest has forced a dialogue about Nazism and its place in the US.

The counter-protest forced Trump to emphatically state his belief that which cannot be defended.



I'm disappointed you disallowed your premise any evidence at all to support it.

[Johonny]

38. pretty much

Had there been no counter protest, the discussion of this weekends events would have never existed. How's that a good thing?

[tblue37]

8. One of the things that led to the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was the

nation's revulsion against the violence committed against civil rights marchers by the brutal police. One reason why we finally got out of Vietnam was that the nation couldn't stomach the way the right wingers, the cops, and the National Guard brutally attacked those who protested the war.

Through counter protesting, our side makes sure the white supremacists expose themselves, and the Republicans' complicity in their agenda is also being exposed. Without counter protests, less attention is given to the evil and brutality of these groups, and their displays are treated like just another reality show.

Counter protesting also shows the good guys that they are not alone, and since there is safety in numbers, realizing that there are more of us than of them gives people the courage to stand against otherwise terrifying evil.

We are social animals. If the crowd seems to be mostly on the Nazi's side, many will join that side to be included in the larger group. But when the larger group is against the Nazis, then the impulse to be on the winning side and with one's neighbors will draw more people to the side of decency.

[Sunlei]

9. water on their flames, plain water on clothes, shades & flags. perhaps water with a bit of sugar.

wilt the nazis, make them stickie for the news

[Hoyt]

10. I don't think the publicity they got in Charlottesville did them any good.

Admittedly, it might attract some people who are haters, but have not participated in public hate displays. But, I suspect others will decide that in the future they'll reserve their hating for less public displays. It might even cause a few to re-evaluate their beliefs.

And this weekend sure woke a lot of people up to this kind of crud.

[jmg257]

11. They should not be able to terrorize unopposed.

Armed marches/stooges outside a synagogue? Torch parades denouncing other races?

Ignore their blatant hate attacks?

Screw that.

[hexola]

12. Standing down rewards their agression

Can't do that...

Frankly - and I may rebuffed for saying this - I think those racist fucks got their asses handed to them...

But we do have be wary of mob mentality events...

[Duppers]

61. "Asses handed to them" ??

Not one of them was killed; not one had to be hospitalized!!

Hate groups should never have be given permits to demonstrate in the first place.
Secondly, there should have been 100+ cops surrounding their activities.
As much as I love Charlottesville, I think the authorities badly mishandled this.

Use child psychology on these criminal losers. When a child is acting out, we put them in timeout and ignore them. Do not give them what they want: Attention.



These people do need psychological help; although for some of them, it is probably too late and most would be resistant.

[lindysalsagal]

15. It was during bush when no tv cameras came to cover events. But now, they all come, so

there is a case to be made that counter-protesting only fans the flames of stupid. Because you can't change their minds.

It could bring in new nazi recruits: There are idiots who live to conflict.

I say go to our own protests, ignore theirs.

[Duppers]

58. Amen. #1, hate group shouldn't be given permits

To protest in the first place.

#2. There was not enough police coverage.

These HATE Groups should never be given a platform.

[leftynyc]

17. NOPE

Never, ever, ever ignore evil when you see it. That's EXACTLY how we got the degenerate in the oval office. They ignored his evil.

[Lee-Lee]

18. Counter protests are more effective when done separate and not confrontational

When you stage a counter protest on the same day at the same location inevitably the hotheads on both sides end up in screaming matches and some resort to violence.

And guess who gets 100% of the media coverage then. The 99 people who show up peacefully never get seen and the one dude in all black smashing windows and hitting people gets plastered all over.

A far more effective tactic is a counter protest one town over or a few days later, that is larger and displays calm logic and rational points. Then your media attention goes to the message and the mainstream and not the fringe elements.

If they had ignored the nazi morons this weekend and shown up the next weekend for a peaceful demonstration that was 500x bigger it would have been a much better repudiation of the white supremacist message, and the white supremacists would have been getting far less attention and media coverage this week.

[Kaleva]

37. The massive but peaceful anti war protests were all but ignored by MSM

Conflict brings coverage . Trump wouldn't be in the stew he's in now if Charlottesville had been peaceful.

[hexola]

19. I think it is fair to debate the approach to counter-protesting...

But I think most of us know very little about how it all went down in C'ville...so hard to enter that debate - even after the fact.

[Coventina]

20. Silence means approval.

Silence = Death

[Cuthbert Allgood]

22. That worked so well with Trump's campaign.

Oh, he's never going to win. Just ignore him.

They aren't necessarily on the "losing end of a decades-long battle." Racism has been a problem in this country for centuries and, in case you haven't been paying attention, has been ratcheted up in the past decade or so (you know, since we elected a black president). It isn't just going to go away if we put our fingers in our ears and say "lalalalalala." They need to be fought. Head on. They need to have the light shined on them so everyone can see them for the fucksticks they are. And they need to be countered at their "rallies."

[Duppers]

55. Trump was not ignored. He got Millions

In free press coverage which was one of the big factors in getting him elected.

[Hekate]

23. Really? "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"

[ananda]

26. Agree

We need to be in their faces 24/7... outing them
and showing them for what they are .. unwhitewashed
(pun intended).

[ismnotwasm]

24. They said "JEWS will not replace us. Not 'You"

This can't be ignored.

[hatrack]

25. Trying to add up all the ways in which this post is wrong . . .

. . . and running out of numbers.

But your concern is duly noted.

[get the red out]

27. Not so sure about this

It seems to be pretty important that good people tell racists that we aren't going to hide from them, that theirs isn't the only voice, or even the loudest.

[Expecting Rain]

29. Getting into street battles with Nazis only helps the Nazis.

Antifa tactics are not new.

They are the same tactics, same flag, same name as the anarcho-communists used in 1930s Germany.

The chaos they created (including blood in the streets) strengthened the Nazis and lead to their gaining power.

Know your history people.

We have the numbers to stand against Nazism. Violent extremists with an anti-liberal agenda hurt our cause and help the Nazis.

Turn out Antifa!

[Downtown Hound]

31. Ignoring them worked really well in Nazi Germany. n/t

[nini]

32. You say those groups are on the losing end of the battle

Morally yes.. however they are gaining steam/influence/power and if sit back and assume they'll just go away - they will not.

Don't be so naive to think they're not emboldened and ready to get much more violent than they are now whether they are on TV or not.

[lindysalsagal]

33. I attend protests for me: Not for success. I was at the feb 20 pre-iraq U.N. NYC protest.

I knew very well at the time that it would not stop the war machine: We all did. But I also knew I couldn't live with the aftermath if I couldn't now look back and know I was there. I had my sign. I froze for hours: It was 20 degrees in NYC at 52nd street. We were penned in but the police took good care of us. It was a happy crowd. I needed to be there for me.

But it didn't do a damned bit of good.

[ebbie15644]

34. but the media refuses to ignore them and "feeds" them therefore I think we have to counter

[haele]

36. It's a conundrum. If you don't counterprotest, you're giving them ground.

The KKK flourished in the 1920's and 1930's because they were normalized; many of the soldiers who went off to fight the Nazis, even several who liberated camps came back and put their hoods and robes back on - no matter if they went back to Georgia, or Indiana, or New Jersey - or California.

By normalizing them, they'll make all sorts of excuses when their marches turn ugly - it will just be "a few bad apples" who will go around and beat up/kill a few minorities who are in the wrong place at the wrong time, or thrash/burn known "liberal" businesses or synagogues during - or after their "heritage" marches. All with a "wink, wink/nod, nod" from the leadership who will stand above the fray and claim "well, those people had it coming because they're attacking us" or "it was just excited kids, we'll make sure they don't do it again". All while they're all spewing hate and incitement to .

You didn't hear about the damage to minority communities the KKK and other supremacist groups did during the '50s through '80s in areas where business leaders and councilmen were in leadership positions. You only heard about their doings when those minority communities finally made a violent stand.

And then, of course the cries go up - "Why are they so violent?" - which is shorthand for "See, those people are nothing but ignorant thugs who can't figure out how to stop being bullied the socially expedient way that doesn't make the majority uncomfortable."

For all of Ghandi's and MLK's "non-violent protest", there was also the threat of violence behind it.
Counter-protests typically become violent when the non-violent methods aren't working, or when it's obvious that the Nazis and other brownshirt/white hood groups think they've got carte blanche to "show whose boss" and go out to "get rowdy" on others who are just trying to get their families through the month on their paychecks.

If you don't stand up to them, you lay down to them. Granted, you can be peaceful when you stand up, but they want to smash heads and they're just waiting for the opportunity to do so.
So, counter-protesters with bats to protect themselves is understandable - especially when they're being faced an overwhelming number of packs of young men in white polo shirts or dressed in National Guards body armor armed with bats, shields, and firearms just looking for trouble.

And that's what you had in Charlottesville.

Haele

[Blue_true]

39. Their quote was "Jew will not replace us".

I am not into street protest events, but Nazis must be confronted.

[marlakay]

41. At least we are all having a conversation

Even my realtor today meeting with us about selling house was talking about it and she is not political.

It's forcing people to wake up and thats a good thing.

We all get so into our own little comfortable lives with our own family and friends, our own jobs, stresses, sicknesses, etc until it is splashed on every tv everywhere we don't wake up and take notice.

I think most people are just hoping the 4 yrs goes quick and trying not to think about Trump being in office. Just ignore the crazy guy and hope for the best.

[moda253]

44. I am not sure what i just read

But it smells like bullshit to me.

[Iggo]

46. Yes. (n/t)

[Humanist_Activist]

48. Ignoring them isn't working, they gain traction in the shadows, we need to shine the light on them..

these fascist pieces of shit need to go scurrying back into their holes.

[Egnever]

49. We have been ignoring them for a couple of decades now

How is that working out?

[orangecrush]

50. My take - Ignore nazi attention whores

"Don't go to their rallies to counterprotest, all you're doing with that is increasing the overall crowd size, and giving a relatively small group the publicity and recognition they so desperately crave.

I would hold counterprotests in a location well away from these fools. That way, the world can clearly see the contrast between the message of hate, and the message of peace, tolerance, and equality.

When you put yourself with the haters, all anyone sees is the hate and violence.

Let the attention whores talk to themselves and the air, and if they get out of hand and violent, let the police deal with them.

This is not Germany in the 1930's, nazi thugs will not be permitted to sow terror with impunity.

Stay away from the bastards, help make it easier for the police to do their job, which is to uphold and enforce, if necessary, the rule of law."

[Warpy]

51. It's a dilemma. Ignoring bullies does NOT make them go away

It makes them think they're gaining support, so they escalate. Counter protesting bullies is dangerous and we don't want to see any good people hurt or killed.

My advice stands. When the shit starts to fly, leave. Reassemble elsewhere. You've made your point and left the fighting to the punks who are looking for fights. Deprived of women and children, they'll often turn on each other, one loudmouthed group fighting the others.

Always have an escape planned, melting down side streets and alleys, if necessary.

And remember, sometimes they have to kill some of us. They have to. And it always defeats them in the end.

[Snackshack]

52. Personally

I think the best "anti-protest" to a "protest" I have seen yet was the packages sent to the bundy crew who took over the refuge and include lots of Kleenex tissues...

[ecstatic]

53. It's probably easy to ignore if you're a white guy

There are people who don't have that luxury.

[Blindingly apparent]

54. I have posted this before

The only way to defeat the Nazis is to make them Irrelevant. Don't give them an audience. Throw a community/family fun fair across town. With the cooperation of local businesses and churches, make it huge. Free hotdogs, entertainment, prizes. Get the school kids to perform anything and everything to entertain people and keep them away from the hateful rally. Ask the local news to interview various participants

[jalan48]

57. For the most part we have been ignoring hate groups. How has that worked out?

However, I don't think violence is the answer. It only gives cover to people like Trump who want to present the issue as equal sides doing bad things.