I need help understanding the Romney lies. How is it a felony?

[Quantess]

It looks like he reported truthfully to the SEC, that he was CEO of Bain until 2002.
But then he lied to the public that he did not work for Bain at all after 1999, because it was unseemly as a candidate.

Do I have that correct? He's definitely a liar, but how is it a felony?

[Orangepeel]

1. Lying to the public is not a felony

He also lied on his financial disclosure forms, but I doubt that's a felony. It may not even be a crime.

The Obama campaign spokesperson said something like, "he's lying when he said he stopped working at Bain after 1999 because otherwise he lied on the SEC forms." The reporter said something like, "but that would be a felony." The spokesperson agreed.

Now, Romney is still insisting that he didn't work for Bain after 1999, which means, in effect, that he is insisting the information he gave to the SEC was a lie.

Of course the SEC forms are right and the lie is what Mitt is saying now. But Democrats are right to push to make him admit it.

[Quantess]

4. Aha... yes, I see where they are going with this.

He didn't commit a felony (he reported accurately to the SEC), but he needs to prove he didn't commit a felony, and needs to admit he lied to the public.

That makes sense. Thanks.

[Orangepeel]

10. Exactly. I think is highly unlikely his lawyers filed bogus paperwork with the SEC

I'm sure they are experts at getting right up to the legal line without crossing it. I think it will be the same with his tax returns -- legal but slimy. But the slime needs to be exposed.

[Gman]

16. The point is that

Either he was working at Bsin up till 02 and was responsible for thousands of jobs being eliminated or he lied to the SEC.

[Quantess]

24. But as Rachel Maddow pointed out,

Romney drew a salary of over $100,000 per year at Bain up until 2002. So either he was getting paid a salary for doing nothing, or he was working at Bain through 2002.

So the evidence points to Romney lying to everyone except the SEC.

[randome]

25. No. When pressed, he will say he was paid a salary for nothing.

You see how this works?

We really need to think like devil's advocates more often.

[Quantess]

27. So, you are predicting that he is going to try to wiggle out of a straight answer.

That he is going to mince around and say that he didn't lie to anyone, really.
Hmmm... could be.

In any case, I agree he will NEVER come out and admit he lied. Habitual liars never admit to a lie, no matter how obvious.

[CTyankee]

30. Ed Conard says that "a managing committee" handled Bain's investments over the time in question.

No one asked who was on that committee. It appears that Conard was on the committee, but he says he never saw Mitt at the meetings of the committee. Of course he didn't. Everybody knows you don't actually have to show up, you can manipulate from the shadows.

That "committee" is largely faceless and nameless. Yet it all seems "legal." Which technically it probably is. The trick for the Obama campaign is to focus group the questions around this arrangement because I kept wondering during the Hayes program what the American voter would think of this guy Conard, all the time he was talking. We'll probably see some answers fairly soon...

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

9. That's an important point

Obama isn't accusing Romney of a felony. All this hand-wringing from Fox News and the Romney camp demanding an apology is all artifice. He's accusing Romney of lying to the American people when he says that he had no involvement with Bain after 1999. The SEC filings show that Romney was involved with Bain as its CEO, President, managing director, and sole shareholder. But, if Romney isn't lying to the American public now then the only other possibility is that he lied to the SEC. In that case it would be a felony.

[progressivebydesign]

21. Yes, we're saying you either lied to the people or you lied to the SEC and FEC, choose one. n/t

[bemildred]

29. That is the dilemma. nt

[Avalux]

19. And then there's what documents told the state of Mass.....

that he had no ties whatsoever to Bain after 1999 (same as what he told the public). Which is the lie??? And what are the ramifications of lying to the state of Mass?

[uppityperson]

2. If he signed some legal paper, not sure what it is, then that is a felony.

rather like the difference between lying and perjury. It depends not on what he lied about but how he lied about it.

[robinlynne]

3. He is either lying to the American public repeatedly, or a felon. He has to choose one or the other.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

5. It's how 'one' files the forms?

Would the SEC allow the CEO, President and sole shareholder of a company to claim no responsibility for that company? A strong case could be made when Bain claimed that during that time, the company was “wholly owned by W. Mitt Romney,” that Romney was ultimately responsible for the running of the company even if it was true that he wasn’t active in the running of the company. If in fact Romney wasn’t actively involved in the running of the company, why was no one named as being responsible for the company?

[CanonRay]

6. I think Title 18 U.S.C. 1001 probably covers it

(a)Except as otherwise provided in this section, whoever, in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative, or judicial branch of the Government of the United States, knowingly and willfully—
(1)falsifies, conceals, or covers up by any trick, scheme, or device a material fact;

(2)makes any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or representation; or

(3)makes or uses any false writing or document knowing the same to contain any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or entry;

shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years or, if the offense involves international or domestic terrorism (as defined in section 2331), imprisoned not more than 8 years, or both. If the matter relates to an offense under chapter 109A, 109B, 110, or 117, or section 1591, then the term of imprisonment imposed under this section shall be not more than 8 years.

(b)Subsection (a) does not apply to a party to a judicial proceeding, or that party’s counsel, for statements, representations, writings or documents submitted by such party or counsel to a judge or magistrate in that proceeding.

(c)With respect to any matter within the jurisdiction of the legislative branch, subsection (a) shall apply only to—
(1)administrative matters, including a claim for payment, a matter related to the procurement of property or services, personnel or employment practices, or support services, or a document required by law, rule, or regulation to be submitted to the Congress or any office or officer within the legislative branch; or

(2)any investigation or review, conducted pursuant to the authority of any committee, subcommittee, commission or office of the Congress, consistent with applicable rules of the House or Senate.



Plus, if the forms were mailed in, you have Mail Fraud, also a Felony.

[Roselma]

7. It would be a felony if he lied to the SEC. It

appears that he did not lie to the SEC based upon what we're now finding out about his continued presence at Bain all the way to 2002.

If, however, what he tells us today - that he left Bain in 1999 is TRUE, then back when he told the SEC that he was with Bain through 2002, he was telling a lie to the SEC.

My thought is that he is telling lies today, but did not lie to the SEC back in 2002.

Either way, he told a lie.

And...like Stephanie Cutter suggests, if he is telling the truth TODAY, that means he lied to the SEC, and that would be a felony. The statute of limitations has passed if he did lie in 2002. Cutter is NOT suggesting that today's lie is a felony.

[NotThisTime]

8. He lied to become Governor if what he says is true. If he left in '99 then he lied to the Government

in his filings. Can't have it both ways and right now he wants it both ways. He Claimed (to get on the ballot) that MA was still his home, he came back several times a year for holidays and work/business meetings, that was post '99. Now he's lying to the Country. If he left in '99 as he'd have you believe now, he lied on the SEC filings and he lied to become governor.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

11. Mitt's Choice

Last edited Sat Jul 14, 2012, 07:42 PM - Edit history (1)

He has to either

a) Confess that he lied on the SEC filings 10 years ago, which is a crime for which he will not be prosecuted. If they're not indicting anybody from Lehman Brothers, they're not going to pursue this. The downside to this is that it would prove that Mitt lied repeatedly while running for Massachusetts governor.

b) Confess that the SEC filing statements are correct that that he was, in fact, responsible for the activities at Bain between 1999 and 2002, which includes many of its most unsavory business practices. That would also mean that his FEC financial disclosure statement was not correct, and there may be a penalty for that, but it won't be significant.

I would say that Option A is worse for him. A lie told ten years ago beats a lie that you told yesterday. It would also give him "plausible deniability" regarding the worst abuses of Bain Capital.

[progressivebydesign]

20. Forgot about the FEC statements. Also wonder if something unsavory happened with the olympics. n/t

[Voice for Peace]

32. more info (& speculation) here re olympics

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002949899

[The Second Stone]

12. SEC forms are typicaly signed

under penalty of perjury. Are the forms signed under penalty of perjury? Then it might be a felony.

[FarLeftFist]

13. Also if he was still working there in 2002 2003 he outsourced alot more jobs than previous thought.

[chowder66]

14. Office of Government Ethics financial disclosure form

Making a false statement on this is punishable up to 1 year in prison and a $50,000.00 fine.

"Like all presidential candidates, Romney has to submit a financial disclosure statement to the Office of Government Ethics. He filed his most recent one last month, and the disclosure contains a very clearly stated footnote:


Mr. Romney retired from Bain Capital on February 11, 1999 to head the Salt Lake [Olympics] Organizing Committee. Since February 11, 1999, Mr. Romney has not had any active role with any Bain Capital entity and has not been involved in the operations of any Bain Capital entity in any way.

There's no ambiguity there: not involved in Bain operations in any way."

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mitt-romney-bain-financial-disclosure


So....Making a false statement on a financial disclosure form to the Office of Gov't Ethics can result in a felony charge.


or so that is what I am gathering from the article.

[LynnTTT]

15. His reply will be

Look, I clearly left Bain in 1999 when I went to SLC to save the Olympics. I was no longer in Mass I never said I had severed all legal and financial ties; you all just assumed it. And when I said I was flying back for board meetings it was because I retained my position on various boards and I took those positions in 1999 or prior. I never went back for a Bain meeting.
See,it all depends on what "is" is. Or "sex"

[DCBob]

26. The SEC might be interested in his definition of "severed".

[Motown_Johnny]

17. It depends

Did he file false SEC documents to defraud his investors?

Did he purger himself in 2002 about where he was living and if he were eligible to be Governor of MA?

On a side note, did he vote in MA while filing state taxes as a resident of NH?

Maybe there is something else going on that we can't even guess at.

[progressivebydesign]

18. No. he has NOT admitted that he was CEO during that time.

He told the SEC that in the filings, he was on annual reports, etc.

He is campaigning that he was NOT there... then he can just choose his lie. One makes him an outsourcing pig, the other a prison dweller. He hasn't decided which to choose.. he would rather attack the people asking the question.

He tells the SEC that he's still involved - possible lie #1

Then, when he realizes that the Bain outsourcing was under his watch, then suddenly he wasn't there anymore -possible lie #2

And he told Mass that he was still a resident because he came back for business meetings, after saying that he was ALL Utah for the Olympics - possible lie #3.

And, there is the thing that was uncovered yesterday on Current TV, that he is listed in several places as "taking a p/t leave of absence." PART TIME, does not mean temporary. It means that he was still CEO on a p/t basis, still functioning as one. But.. he lied about it to save his ass regarding the outsourcing, etc.

And the recent find that he was still listed on press releases during that time, AND when contacted at Bain, no one said "hey he's not the CEO, this guy is."

He either has to admit that he is lying on the campaign trail, or that he lied to the SEC.

[chowder66]

22. Here it is in a nutshell....

1) In 2001 he submitted a financial disclosure form to the Office of Government Ethics; He says he left Bain and was not involved in the operations of ANY Bain entity in 1999.

2) In 2002 he gives sworn testimony that he is on the Board of a company (entity) that Bain was heavily invested in so he could show sufficient residency status to run for Governor of Mass.

3) Again in 2007 he submitted a financial disclosure form to the Office of Government Ethics; He says he left Bain and was not involved in the operations of ANY Bain entity in 1999.

And now some SEC filings are showing he was still with Bain in various capacities up through or until 2002.

It seems someone misrepresented or lied on the financial disclosure form submitted to the Office of Government Ethics. This can result in a felony.


Why the shift in the disclosures to the Office of Government Ethics?

[Quantess]

23. Many thorough and insightful responses.

Thanks for the replies.

[onenote]

28. While stating that he was CEO may not have been a lie, saying his principal occupation

was "managing director of Bain" during the 1999-2002 period -- something that he reported on those forms -- appears to have been a lie, since his principal (although not necessarily exclusive) occupation -- the occupation that he spent the most time on and from which he earned the most money -- was as CEO of the Salt Lake City Olympics Committee.

Its not impossible or illegal for him to have had the title of CEO of both Bain and the Olympics at the same time. It is illegal to report that his principal occupation was as CEO of Bain if in fact his principal occupation was as CEO of the Olympics.

[warrior1]

31. he would also be in breach of contract with the Olympics

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002949899

[Quantess]

33. Update...I just found this:

http://www.conservativecave.com/index.php/topic,75389.0.html

Some RW nitwit with cheeto stained sweatpants calls my thread "moving the goalpost".

Mitt Romney is a pathological liar. He lies about things he doesn't need to lie about, but he can't seem to help himself. This is acceptable to some RWers? Come on, losers, tell me in what universe it is acceptable for a presidential candidate to either be lying to the SEC or lying to everyone else.

How can you RWers possibly support a candidate with his track record? Yes I know, all you (misguided RWers) want is a vote against Obama, but COME ON! Romney is scraping the bottom of the barrel, and you know it.

Pathetic.

[SunsetDreams]

34. testing....nt