To The Atlantic, Media and Others Who Get Antifa Twisted

[ancianita]

Last edited Wed Aug 30, 2017, 04:52 PM - Edit history (1)

My bullshit detector went off when I finished September's Atlantic article, " The Rise of the Violent Left." It's a twisted read, not a good read, so I'm posting it here instead of in Editorials & Other Articles. I also didn't want to link to a paywall, having paid for the mag at the local bookstore.

Peter Beinart's shallow perusal of American anti-fascism history and its description of current Left-Right arguments come up with this conclusion: Hey, Antifa? Be sure to not fight monsters lest you become a monster. Okay. Great.

On to the point of my title above.

To all the 'high roaders' who say "They both do it!" -- read your history. You can't argue with history. Right now, plenty of lazy-ass media pander to this idea. Especially The Atlantic.(Sept. 2017)


Todays's antifa has its roots in the antifascist movements in Europe almost 100 years ago.

A. German anti-fascists:

1. The Edelweiss Pirates — sabotaging railways, aiding Jews
fleeing the Nazis — sent to camps or prisons.

2. The Swing Kids — pro-American culture that nazis detested — after 1941, nazis sent them to concentration camps.

3.Johan Elser — part of select group of men who tried to assassinate the dictator alone.
4. The European Union, not today’s EU — leaflets to allied forces — killed.

5. The White Rose — pamphlets against nazis popular until a university janitor ratted them — killed.

6. Solf Circle, begun by Johanna Solf — intellectuals against nazism met to aid, hide and help Jews escape — arrested, tried, executed.

7. German Catholic priests — fought against, and got Hitler to give up his T4 “euthanasia program.”

8. Rosenstrasse Circle — women who marched in protest each night in front of the guards against their Jewish husbands’ deportations until -- Hitler released them, even those ‘deported’ to Auschwitz.

9. Kreisau Circle — rich resisters who passed info to allies, othe resistance groups, some participated in failed assassination — executed.

10. Red Orchestra — soviet and german espionage programs, specifically the Harro Schuze-Boysen Harnack group founded by a Luftwaffe officer; gathered intel, helped those hunted by nazis, incited civil disobedience -- arrested, executed.

(Notice that more "dissidents" have been executed in fascist authoritarian Germany than in democratic US.)


B. Spanish and Italian anti-fascists:

Oriani Fallaci, Antonio Gramsci, Arturo Toscanini, Pablo Picasso, among many others.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Italian_anti-fascists
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Spanish_anti-fascists


C. American anti-fascists:

Gary Cooper, Dead Prez, Morris Dees, Marlene Dietrich, Ernest Hemingway, Barry Goldwater, Woody Guthrie, Fred Hampton, Chris Hedges, Rage Against the Machine, Henry Rollins, Arnold Schwarzenegger and many others.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:American_anti-fascists

---------

Against all the facts of history, US media like The Atlantic promote the idea that the Left is violent, too. These media hope you don't read the history of antifa resistance to white supremacism and fascism.

In direct actions -- that MLK once claimed would lower their credibility before lazy thinkers -- the Left still tactically defend against US neoNazis who, under cover of "freedom of speech," try to drive out people of color's very right to even exist in the US.

I say to anyone who "reports:" you owe it to readers to not ignore the history of fascism worldwide.

Antifa critics may never claim that opponents of authoritarianism will be "unlikely allies" of Nazi racism and authoritarianism. The Left will never be authoritarian.

Stop getting the fascist/white supremacist/antifa conflict twisted.


The antifa Left holds to principles of SOLIDARITY, which is the very essence of socialism.

The antifa Left will never allow itself to be misrepresented as "equally" violent. The antifa Left brought the Nazis to Nuremburg. The antifa Left sought Nazis out in South America.

Today's antifa defend and help the downtrodden, whether they show up as the Cajun Navy, Red Cross, Berkeley defenders, or churches.

Hell, even Game of Thrones shows how knowledge of history helps solidarity protect The People's interests. From their brother Brandon's knowledge of history, the Stark sisters learn just who is the enemy within. AND they learn this lesson from their enemy: "we make our own justice. "

Americans won't take the easy way out, either. They'll be a credit to the values of the West.

Because Americans fucking READ HISTORY and value its lessons.

[Marengo]

1. Communists never have been and never will be authoritarian?

[ancianita]

4. Communists will, since they've been seen, in reality, to be authoritarian. Socialism is not.

I just got back from a trip to Cuba, where my small group spent time with Cuban organization leaders and just everyday folks, discussing this very difference.

[Marengo]

5. Perhaps you should amend the statement "The Left will never be authoritarian." in your OP.

There are communist elements within antifa who are little better in practice than the fascists they oppose.

[Marengo]

7. The Cuban regime is not authoritarian?

[ancianita]

14. Nope. That's the hard line clung to by old cold warrior leaders here. It's not. I've been there.

Cubans know Cuba isn't perfect, but Raul is stepping down in 2018, and a whole new openness to trade will come about.

I highly recommend you read Cuban Revelations, by Marc Frank, the longest living American journalist living on the island, who sent his daughters through the Cuban school system. The book itself is about the real inside Cuba since Fidel's death.

I also highly recommend the Netflix series, The Cuba Libra Documentary, to give a sense of how 500 years of conquerors and enslavement have led to their willingness to go with socialism alone and highly regulate the influx of capitalism than completely open up for, as Obama put it, "being crushed by our embrace."

[Marengo]

18. Does the political opposition have the same level of access to the media, and the same amount...

Of air time as the government? Does the government censor critical media content?

[ancianita]

20. Cuba is a one party state, a socialist state with province representation from The People.

Decentralization of decisions is the goal, though it's not complete yet. Gradualism seems to be a method that Cubans agree on.

Officially, Cuba's party is communist, but there is no centralized planning for agricultural, business or other sectors. It's not top-down Stalinist, therefore it considers itself socialist and in solidarity with the world's working class oppressed peoples. We wouldn't claim, either, that European states who have different forms of governance are not democratic. Cuba's governance is way more democratic than communist, if you must attach socialism to communism -- which I don't -- and I can sniff out authoritarianism pretty much anywhere.

You realize that the alt-right conflate all socialism with communism, right?

There are two things we must consider: first, Cuba's been under American embargo for so long that its economy has become self-sustaining. Second, Americans just don't know enough about how Cuba has changed to keep anything but our government's old cold war official perspective; for instance, our propaganda claims Cuba is a state sponsor of terrorism, which is no more true than to claim that marijuana is a class 1 controlled substance like heroin.

I saw that Cuban TV has CNN, ESPN (watched a bit of an American baseball game announced in Spanish) telenovellas, music video channels, etc.

I'm not sure what you mean by critical media content. I don't think the Cuban government could get its hands on a lot of Western media sources even if it wanted to, or even if our sources themselves were objective and non-propagandistic.

[Marengo]

22. Does the Cuban government allow criticism of itself in the media? Criticism from non-communist

/socialist perspectives? How much of the media does the Cuban state in fact control? I ask as most sources of information I'm reading here indicate the media is tightly controlled and censored. Why is Cuba a one party state? Does the state allow individuals or parties in opposition to its political orientation to serve within it?

[Marengo]

84. Why is Cuba a one-Party state?

[ancianita]

85. Socialism is The People's state, so there is no "us vs. them" political mentality.

It's the only one-party state that is the people themselves that I know of.

[Marengo]

86. There is no political opposition to the one-party state in Cuba?

[ancianita]

103. There is intense discussion. No memberships. No "us vs. them" politics. Just solidarity politics.

[LittleBlue]

42. Disgusting. You're making excuses for communist authoritarians

Because "Ive been there"

Okay

[ancianita]

46. The laugh shows you as not only disrespectful but not understanding a thing about antifa history.

Enjoy your self righteous mockery of something you show total ignorance of -- anti-fascist history.

[LittleBlue]

75. You ever think that being a free American tourist in Cuba is different than

being an oppressed Cuban who can't leave at the end of his trip?

Berkeley mayor disagrees with you, BTW. He says Antifa should be classified as a violent gang.

Mayor of Berkeley Jesse Arreguin on Monday said it is time to confront the violent extremism on the left by treating black-clad Antifa protesters as a gang.

A large number of masked Antifa activists were seen jumping the barriers at a largely peaceful demonstration in Berkeley’s Martin Luther King Civic Center Park on Sunday.

Some began attacking Trump supporters at the rally.

“I think we should classify them as a gang,” said Arreguin. “They come dressed in uniforms. They have weapons, almost like a militia and I think we need to think about that in terms of our law enforcement approach.”

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2017/08/28/berkeley-mayor-classify-antifa-as-a-gang/

You're supporting a violent group.

[ancianita]

77. Oh, no doubt a tourist is different! But a Spanish speaking tourist like me asks questions and gets

information that tells me they're not wanting to leave. And moreover, I happen to know for a fact that their government always lets them leave whenever and however they wish. Now, do I call them liars? Dupes? Oppressed? Terrorists?

FYI, no American tourist is "free" in Cuba. There are guidelines for how to behave from the Office of Foreign Assets Control (Treasury Department), not to mention the many general licensing groups that allow Americans to enter Cuba, which is still, technically, under embargo as a "state sponsor of terrorism."

Oh, you want to agree with Mayor Arreguin over me? It's a free country.

And no. You're as wrong as you could possibly be to presume to know me well enough to say that I support a violent group. I'm no dupe. I consider it my job to know that when the broken clocks of politics are right twice a day, I still make it my business to know what truths the two right times actually tell. That's the meaning of solidarity. I see we're different that way.

It's easier for both you and the mayor to put down effort than to engage in it yourselves. You ever think that the mayor values order and big business over defense of minorities, law or justice? Most people do, and that's why we find ourselves at this point in this country.

Just my opinion.

[Expecting Rain]

87. No kidding. This isn't Totalitarian Underground.

[ancianita]

93. ...

adorable

[DetlefK]

51. Eastern Europe will be surprised to hear that.

Yugoslavia: Socialist, ruled dictator-style by Tito
German Democratic Republic: Socialist, ruled dictator-style by a cabal of politicians
Romania: Socialist, ruled dictator-style by Ceausescu
Libya: Socialist, ruled dictator-style by Gaddafi

[ancianita]

83. Just more proof that communism has shown itself as authoritarian. You're right.

[Bonx]

94. I wonder why we never have any Cubans (in Cuba) on the forum?

Just regular everyday folks in Cuba. I'd love to hear their perspective.

[ancianita]

95. Me, too. I mentioned Marco Rubio to Cubans. They laughed, said anyone who visits Cuba knows more

about their country than he does.

[Bonx]

96. Invite some of your new Cuban acquaintances to participate here.

So odd that none are ever here, that i know of.

[ancianita]

98. You're right. I should. There were eight of us, four of whom are fluent in Spanish; one English-only

saxophonist, two jazz singers, one social activist from Richmond, VA, an India-born opthamologist who has worked in Mexico and Peru (a resident of Madison, WI), and a forensic anthropologist from North Carolina. We have become fast friends who now understand the true meaning of humanity through solidarity and socialism.

I went under the joint work of Making The Road (http://makingtheroad.com) out of Chicago, with the People To People leadership organization in Cuba that travelers of good will to their country.

Did we do sightseeing? Oh yeah. Fabulous music venues, food, and sights. Cuba, literally unknown to America, is the unknown jewel of the Caribbean.

Cubans don't consider exiled Cubans in Miami Cubans, just defectors to imperialism and capitalism.

Youth there do leave for other opportunities in the world, but most Cubans are quite happy not be trapped by capitalism's market values. Would they like more amenities like we have? Sure, but not at the expense of their solidarity. They will invite Western trade on their terms. Which is as it should be.

[Bonx]

99. I meant invite some Cubans that are currently in Cuba to participate.

Just regular everyday folks.

[ancianita]

101. Their problem is that 95% of the country has no Internet. It's in blackout. Partly because they

don't want surveillance by the NSA, since the state department has, lol, categorized Cuba -- old cold war labeling and punishment for kicking out capitalists) as a state sponsor of terrorism. They're no more that label than marijuana is in the Schedule 1 category with heroin.

[Bonx]

97. Also, what forum is the DU equivalent for regular folks in Cuba?

Do you have the URL? I'd love to read and participate.

[ancianita]

100. I've never seen one. I do have a two excellent links you can start with, though.

http://makingtheroad.com -- There will be another trip to Cuba and beyond next year. It's an amazing, inspiring set of trips that Prexy Nesbitt conducts (out of Chicago and Boston).

RESPECT, an association of 100 US institutions, organizations and travel organizers that arrange Cuba travel. https://globalexchange.org/campaigns/freedom-to-travel-cuba/respect-an-association-of-u-s-travelers-to-cuba/ -- Their trips are premised on 17 principles, among which is, "respect all Cubans, without regard to skin color, gender, sexual orientation, religion, age, political persuasion, abilities or economic status."

I highly recommend that everyone on DU watch the Netflix series "Cuba Libre Story," narrated by various experts on its history.

[Expecting Rain]

8. Yeah, tell it to the 100 million killed by Communist political violence around the world

Last edited Tue Aug 29, 2017, 12:42 PM - Edit history (1)

and the dozens of times more enslaved by proponents of this ideology.

Good grief.

I can't believe posts like the above are for real.

The authoritarian left is antiliberal.

The Democratic tradition is to reject totalitarians on either extreme.

[ancianita]

19. I'm not presenting the authoritarian left. I'm talking about anti-fascism, socialism and solidarity.

And how defensive violence isn't violence.

The Democratic tradition we're close to losing now rests on rule of law, being abused and eroded day by day, year by year -- witness the news -- by bad faith capitalists and racist authoritarians who want to control sweep that democratic tradition aside.

Maybe you think I don't understand that. The OP is addressing their claims that even defensive violence should be stopped. I don't think any defensive standing/fighting for their ground before neoNazi protests -- by church groups in Charlottesville, or by antifa in Portland -- is equally bad violence. When the resistance was stopped, it was by death at the hands of Nazis.

The battle of the Warsaw ghetto is one example of how fighting back doesn't make you equally evil.

I agree with Schwarzenegger who says that you're not a bigot because you fight bigots, and that "the country that defeated Hitler's armies is no place for Nazi flags." American neoNazis' premises for what they do are the same as the German Nazis' premises.

Are you saying you're against the anti-fascists? Or that in standing up to them, anyone can be guilty of equal and opposite authoritarianism?

[Marengo]

28. There are anti-fascist elements that are as authoritarian as the fascists, such as Maoists etc.

Those elements must be as vigorously rejected as the fascists.

[ancianita]

30. Of course. When we demand commitment to solidarity, we can literally 'see' both sides' provocateurs.

You don't throw out the baby. Just the dirty bath water. It takes attention.

Hurt people hurt people. We can't think that undoing white supremacy isn't anything but a long-term effort.

There is no letup with authoritarians. They and their fearful, ignorant henchmen will come for our children after they're done with us. Which, we now know, will happen almost every generation.

I'm remember seeing this example of that idea around here before Harvey hit.

[Marengo]

33. Are the authoritarian and anti-democratic elements within the antifa movement as a whole being...

Resisted?

[ancianita]

35. From what my friends say, yes. The church and other orgs are clear headed about solidarity.

[Expecting Rain]

88. Antifa is dirty bath water.

The tactics of chaos, disorder, and street violence of original Antifa in the 1920s and 30s helped propel the Nazis to power. They were a gift to Hilter then as they are a gift to the right-wing now.

The ignorance of history is disheartening.

[ancianita]

89. So what is your solution to the rise of fascism. Tell us.

[Expecting Rain]

90. Strengthing the liberal side and electing Democrats to office.

And not turning into anti-liberal extremists.

[ancianita]

91. That's it? Welp, not one person on this thread, or in DU, has expressed anything to the contrary.

Everyone in DU is a liberal, in case you haven't noticed. I see myself as one of the die-hardiest of liberals that I know. That doesn't mean that we keep right on doing what we're doing.

But it's a free country. Do what you think best. Keep on being the liberal you are. All hands work toward the good.

Events are moving fast. Old liberalism is too tired to cope with these events.
Right now we in the US are faced with over 900 hate groups, armed, spreading fear/hate poison across the country under cover of their rights. They've been at it since the 1930's. We've debated, exposed and left them alone long enough for them to form their own subculture. What do we have to do -- wait until they shoot liberals to believe them?

While I support 1A free expression, I will work against white supremacist groups yelling "fire" in public spaces about their fears of a non-white planet. In the past, liberal ideas have beaten them, but these days? No. Action is called for when they own big media, government, and their president militarizes local police into pseudo-gestapo, soon to become real gestapo.

I will support all causes that slow down, sue, stop or otherwise end neoNazi activity in this country.

If we all kept to "strengthening the liberal side," which we've already been doing, we've found, regardless, that it's tough enough just addressing the science-denying stupidity of the right, without adding the current neoNazi and police racial barbarity to that mix.

Antifa -- or the U.S. DEFENDERS, as I now like to call them -- think like I do: better to be wrong pessimists than a wrong optimists. They've learned from history that the longer they wait for things to "go away," the worse the situation becomes. DEFENDERS think it's time for prevention.

We've seen this movie. We have to rewrite the script.

[Expecting Rain]

92. IMO Liberals don't support violent political movements that are clear enemies of liberalism.

Supporting Antifa violence is an insane proposition in my estimation and is a "major gift to the right-wing" (in the words of Noam Chomsky).

We saw the movie, the original Antifa helped propel the Nazis into power. We DO NEED to re-write the script. What's the cliche about the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Time to stop embracing insanity.

Liberalism isn't tired. Electing Democrats isn't a solution to trivialize with "that's it?" responses.

This is a community supposedly based around supporting the election of Democrats as our main purpose. Some folks seem like they believe in anything but that prime goal.

Antifa violence should be unequivocally condemned by good Democrats. Full stop.

[demmiblue]

2. Here is the article in case anyone wants to read it:

The Rise of the Violent Left

Antifa’s activists say they’re battling burgeoning authoritarianism on the American right. Are they fueling it instead?

Since 1907, Portland, Oregon, has hosted an annual Rose Festival. Since 2007, the festival had included a parade down 82nd Avenue. Since 2013, the Republican Party of Multnomah County, which includes Portland, had taken part. This April, all of that changed.

In the days leading up to the planned parade, a group called the Direct Action Alliance declared, “Fascists plan to march through the streets,” and warned, “Nazis will not march through Portland unopposed.” The alliance said it didn’t object to the Multnomah GOP itself, but to “fascists” who planned to infiltrate its ranks. Yet it also denounced marchers with “Trump flags” and “red maga hats” who could “normalize support for an orange man who bragged about sexually harassing women and who is waging a war of hate, racism and prejudice.” A second group, Oregon Students Empowered, created a Facebook page called “Shut down fascism! No nazis in Portland!”

Next, the parade’s organizers received an anonymous email warning that if “Trump supporters” and others who promote “hateful rhetoric” marched, “we will have two hundred or more people rush into the parade … and drag and push those people out.” When Portland police said they lacked the resources to provide adequate security, the organizers canceled the parade. It was a sign of things to come.

For progressives, Donald Trump is not just another Republican president. Seventy-six percent of Democrats, according to a Suffolk poll from last September, consider him a racist. Last March, according to a YouGov survey, 71 percent of Democrats agreed that his campaign contained “fascist undertones.” All of which raises a question that is likely to bedevil progressives for years to come: If you believe the president of the United States is leading a racist, fascist movement that threatens the rights, if not the lives, of vulnerable minorities, how far are you willing to go to stop it?

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/the-rise-of-the-violent-left/534192/

[ancianita]

3. Thanks. It's best to go with the original text.

[speaktruthtopower]

6. The ones who show up at G7 events..

are violent at times. Not sure of their relation to antifa.

[ancianita]

11. Agreed, though I'm still not sure we know the G7 ideologies they protest better than they do.

Supremacists hide behind money, as we've seen with the Kochs.

[Progressive dog]

9. Of course, the antifa are like heros,

the communists were flower children, the Spanish anti-fascists never hurt a fly, etc.
I've had it with justifications for riotous behavior and attacks on others, except in self defense.

[yardwork]

10. We've moved from refighting the primary to refighting the Spanish Civil War.

I noticed that George Orwell isn't mentioned in the OP.

[ancianita]

12. For sure, I think we can think of a lot of anti-fascists in the arts.

[yardwork]

13. Are you familiar with George Orwell's books?

[ancianita]

15. Yes. Your point?

[yardwork]

23. Homage to Catalonia. I recommend it. Good read.

[ancianita]

27. He is at the top of my list of writers. I have The Complete Works of Orwell.

[FSogol]

17. I don't get it either.

All our anti-fascists are cool celebrities!

[Hortensis]

16. "Antifa" is mainly a new iteration of the '80s "radical liberal,"

muddied by pseudointellectual attempts to link it to past uses. It helps to know a few things to evaluate its various often intensely dishonest uses, most of which are anti-Democratic propaganda. Weaponizing a new term is all.

FIRST: To be liberal is to be anti-fascist.

That's because there is literally no such thing as liberal fascism. (Liberal is personality, not party.)

SECOND: Fascism is almost entirely an ultra-conservative phenomenon, though strong, authoritarian leaders have a fatal appeal for many conservatives, not just the most extreme. (Again, personality, not party.)

THIRD: Fascism by nature is an extremist phenomenon and can also arise among left-wing extremists, who share many characteristics with their counterparts on the far right. However, in far fewer numbers on the left. Nevertheless, when strong authoritarian leaders arise on the left (and also from the right!), some zealots will be drawn from the left. There's just enough truth to scrape up here to build giant lies around.

These guys knew the truth, of course:

MUSSOLINI

If the 19th [century] was the century of the individual (liberalism means individualism), you may consider that this is the "collective" century, and therefore the century of the state. Benito Mussolini "The Doctrine of Fascism" (1932)

"Against individualism, the Fascist conception is for the State; and it is for the individual in so far as he coincides with the State . . . . It is opposed to classical Liberalism . . . . Liberalism denied the State in the interests of the particular individual; Fascism reaffirms the State as the true reality of the individual. "The Doctrine of Fascism"

HITLER

"Liberalism is a disease of the mind that weakens and corrupts human beings." Adolf Hitler

"Universal education is the most corroding and disintegrating poison that liberalism has ever invented for its own destruction." Adolf Hitler

"the masses love a commander more than a petitioner and feel inwardly more satisfied by a doctrine, tolerating no other beside itself, than by the granting of liberalistic freedom" MEIN KAMPF by Adolf Hitler: Volume 1, Chapter 2

"ANTIFA," 1930s

The late Huey P. Long, who knew all the tricks of the dissembling demagog, was once asked: “Do you think we will ever have Fascism in America?” Said the Kingfish: “Sure, only we’ll call it anti-Fascism.” 1939 “LIFE” magazine

[ancianita]

21. Interesting references. I distinguish decentralized socialism from centralized fascism. Antifa

are historically socialist believers in solidarity -- not the authoritarian left's (e.g., Stalinist communism) lying lip service to solidarity. (Thus, Orwell.)

Antifa's solidarity, historically, is defined by socialism's decentralization, not the authoritarian left's centralization, thought of as another form of fascism.

Their difference is hard to see. But we must look hard. Defensive violence can be distinguished from offensive violence.

I'm not sure that Orwell saw socialism as solidarity anywhere. I'm pretty sure that Hemingway did, which is one reason he lived in Cuba for 22 years.

[Hortensis]

24. Political words change meaning over time. If it can be weaponized

against Democrats these days, it will be.

Every time you find yourself using arcane, recondite, abstruse political terms that you would have to explain to most people around you, you should wonder if related terms that have come into common use might now have very different meanings for the common user.

Our more ardently right-wing neighbors all know Democrats are pro fascism and that the so-called antifa are at the front of attempts to impose fascism on America. Thick books will only take us so far. Sometimes we really do need to find out what Infowars and Limbaugh have to say too.

Just noticed that this speech recognition recognized Infowars and Limbaugh and spelled both correctly. Sigh.

[ancianita]

25. This past English teacher and student of linguistics agrees.How words get changed is the politics of

media, its owners, with the help of bought leaders who serve their owners' interests. Often the same owners.

When neoNazis hide behind 1st Amendment "speech" rights, those who claim neoNazis cry "fire" in the public arena are right to regulate their "free" speech. This makes us no less democratic than a Germany that outlaws all Nazi speech and symbolism. We need to heed the free speech lessons they learned.

[yallerdawg]

26. The so-called 'antifa' is the same old 'anarchists' who have been showing up for years!

On the political spectrum, they have more in common with the Tea Party than the Democratic Party.

"More government" liberals do not have much in common with "anarchists" other than clothing choices.

[ancianita]

29. Not in Charlottesville. Not where my friends see it. One travel friend walked arm-in-arm with Cornel

West and the many antifa church groups. My Cuba travel companion told me these five points (my orgnization, and taken from my notes as he spoke) by skype, the day after the Charlottesville 'event':

1. The country witnessed, and the city acknowledged, a clear, unequivocal victory for the antifa organizers, the vast majority of whom were from churches, led by the church closest to the march site, the United Methodist Church. They were those you saw in videos on either side of the paraders.

2. The antifa showed organized solidarity in direct action by setting up tear gas stations, medical help stations, cleanup stations. The Durham Solidarity Committee runs a bail bond fund for antifa arrestees in Charlottesville.

3. Some seasoned antifa activists were shaken by this event because they're used to confronting evil corporate entities, not fellow Americans with guns.

Cornel West, who has received many, many, many death threats throughout his life, and who my friend marched with, said he'd never seen anything like this.

4. The city itself has become dangerous because these supremacists work themselves into mob behavior, dispersing into roving bands of attackers throughout the city.

5. Heather Heyer had never had a single protest experience, prior to this one, in her short life.

[yallerdawg]

31. What I'm saying is...

"antifa" is not the violent anarchists who have been showing up at protests for years now. They brought violence and burned vehicles in Washington, DC during the huge protest against Trump after the inauguration.

The media and the right want to label anarchists as the violent left for that false equivalency effect.

[ancianita]

36. True. That, they do. Media bias is simple: give the appearance of thought for profit.

They've muddled the players up pretty well.

[kwassa]

34. If antifa doesn't purge it's violent members ....

it will lose everything for us.

[ancianita]

38. Freedom of assembly means that we ALL have to keep them out of protests. Let's be clear:

all antifa may have to be invaded by violent protestors. That doesn't make those protesters antifa. It makes them provocateurs.

My son, on social media, just identified a member of his social group on video in Charlottesville and tagged every last one of his and that guy's friends. That all know him and have made him a pariah.

That's one way to start, as bigtree stated over a week ago.

[Expecting Rain]

40. Cornel West, the guy who sat on the Democratic Platform Committe

and then supported Jill Stein???

I'm astonished (and not a bit happy) that you'd bring his name up on DEMOCRATIC Underground.

[ancianita]

43. I'm not the only Democrat who respects him. There are plenty of black Democrats who do, too.

[Expecting Rain]

45. Cornel West called President Obama the "first niggerized black president."

I don't respect Cornel West. I can't see that many Democrats respect Cornel West. He has a history of calling the Democratic Party an irredeemable neoliberal party and he supported Jill Stein for president in 2016.

He's deplorable as far as this Democrat is concerned.

[ancianita]

47. That's it? West said some words you don't like? Throw his entire history as a black Democrat

under the bus, eh? Even Obama doesn't think about him the way you do. He knows West's importance to the black community and Democrats. And the "niggerized" comment is about whites, not Obama, dude. Obama was "niggerized." He's still "niggerized," and so is Michelle. Do you get that?

For you to put down a Democrat who's worked 'the work' and is probably older than you are, is the height of shallow divisiveness. To call out the ugliness of white attitudes doesn't make the speaker ugly or disloyal. Obama wouldn't use such words, but he wouldn't say that West was wrong.

Until I hear my black Democrat friends agree with you -- and they haven't -- your claim says a lot more about you than you realize.

[Expecting Rain]

48. No, Cornel West was addressing President Obama directly when he called him "niggerized."

Last edited Wed Aug 30, 2017, 03:18 AM - Edit history (1)

His words are well documented, so why lie?



"A niggerized black person is a black person who is afraid and scared and intimidated when it comes to putting a spotlight on white supremacy and fighting against white supremacy," West explained. "So when many of us said we have to fight against racism, what were we told? 'No, he can't deal with racism because he has other issues, political calculations. He's the president of all America, not just black America.' We know he's president of all America but white supremacy is American as cherry pie.

You can't talk about wealth and inequality, you can't talk about education, you can't talk about massive unemployment and under employment and you can't talk about drones being dropped on people in other parts of the world without talking about white supremacy and its ways in which it operates. It doesn't have to be overt. The president is right about that.

But too many black people are niggerized. I would say the first black president has become the first niggerized black president."

Cornel West is not a Democrat and worked to elect Jill Stein. Fuck him and the horse he rode in on.

This forum is for people who support Democrats, not the likes of Cornel West. Enough with the Mau-mauing. Calling Barack and Michelle Obama "niggerized" is beyond the pale of acceptable discourse.

[ancianita]

68. Context is still everything--of Cornel West's life and work, and of the black tradition of critique.

Obama knows that.

At the time I read this endorsement during the primary, I thought he was settled.

https://www.facebook.com/drcornelwest/posts/10155953989390111

Be as hatefully partisan as you want, but I refuse to dismiss, as you do, the black community's respect and support for one of its reknowned scholars, political activists and historians.

This forum is for whatever Democrats deem supportive of Democratic interests, and West's presence at anti-fascist protests must not be sneered at because of your political disagreement with said Democrat.

West's critique ended up being personal, yes, but as far as historical context goes, in the years before West's "offense," I won't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. I'll go with the black community on West.

[Expecting Rain]

69. Ad hominem attacks on me are not welcome and are a violation of board rules.

Cornel West attacked the Democratic party viciously in 2016, suggesting it is an unremediable neoliberal party. He also called Barack Obama a "niggerized black president." Those are inflammatory words.

Attacking me as a "hateful partisan" (when I'm a faithful Democrat) makes no sense on a forum for supporters of the Democratic Party, and is a violation of the TOS.

Cornel West is not a Democrat and he loudly supported Jill Stein in 2016. He would not be welcome at DU under the explicit terms set forward recently by Skinner.

[ancianita]

71. You missed my point. Obama knows that West was describing context, not faulting Obama.

Even if Obama doesn't agree, he knows, for example, that when Chuck D calls the last two decades the "dumbassification of America," Chuck D's not using ad hominem to call Americans dumbasses. He's saying they've been targets of an evil process. And so it had been with Barack and Michelle Obama.

I don't know how you can call my responses ad hominem at all. But here you are:

I'm astonished (and not a bit happy) that you'd bring his name up on DEMOCRATIC Underground

Fuck him and the horse he rode in on.

This forum is for people who support Democrats, not the likes of Cornel West. Enough with the Mau-mauing.

I support fellow Americans who support Democrats. You're right, West is not welcomed on DU. But you have blown my description of his presence at Charlottesville way out of proportion, made West an issue here, seeming to still be fighting primary issues about one man, and your offense at a word that described a process imposed on our candidate. This thread isn't going to be about West or that word, okay?

You're going off on this one man. You need to calm down and give this up. I simply stated that he was present at an antifa demonstration. That simple.

And don't take my position about West personally. I held my views decades before Obama's election and will continue to hold them. I have proof that I voted for Hillary. Don't think I have to agree with you to be a good Democrat. Enough already.

[wryter2000]

102. That's who they were in Berkeley

Samo samo idiot disruptors. I wish they'd go away.

[Petrushka]

32. "Antifa is 'A major gift to the right.'"---Noam Chomsky

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/noam-chomsky-antifa-is-a-major-gift-to-the-right/article/2631786

[ancianita]

37. He isn't the last word on what works and what doesn't. This will sort itself out, with attention

from all of us. His authority on this is thin, and he's not helping.

He offers no better answers than what's being brought forward to stop neoNaziism in this country. I've read everything he's written, studied his deep linguistics theories in the 70's. My take on this opinion is this -- not every unbroken clock runs on time. Some run fast, some slow.

Today, there is a hostile environment all the way from Trump to media to doubters -- same as it ever was toward forward thinking fighters.

Someone has to stand up to neoNazis in this country. And we have to be on their side.

I'll put current actors of the antifa up as more helpful than he is. If he, media cold war rhetoric believers won't help them, let's at least not indulge in doubt, and cast shade. Let's stand with those who we know are in the right.

[Expecting Rain]

39. Everyone* stands up to Nazis

Last edited Tue Aug 29, 2017, 07:12 PM - Edit history (1)

The thought that we need to make common cause with a movement that is indeed a "gift to the right" is spurious reasoning.

Being anti-Fascist/anti-Nazi is "necessary" to be in coalition with liberals, but it isn't "sufficient." Antifa is not a liberal movement.

Antifa hurts our cause and is a gift to Nazis. Chompsky is spot-on!

[ancianita]

44. That's what you think I mean. It's not.

[Petrushka]

41. Nope! Can't stand with extremists from the Left or the Right. If that's casting shade, so be it.

https://www.njhomelandsecurity.gov/analysis/anarchist-extremists-antifa

[ck4829]

50. Exactly. We need a dedicated anti-fascism force in this country

If people are against antifa, then they are free to set up their own anti-fascism faction.

[Not Ruth]

52. Of, just do it with peace and non violence

[ck4829]

49. K&R

[haveahart]

53. When i was growing up the word "abolitionist" was a bad word and they were dangerous people.

Sometimes, history sucks!

[ancianita]

66. History proves how large groups of people can get the language of solidarity wrong.

[jalan48]

54. Nancy Pelosi isn't an Antifa fan.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/pelosi-condemns-antifa-after-berkeley-clashes/ar-AAqXs5l?li=BBnbcA1

[ancianita]

57. Right. Anyone avoids groups that try to defend against toxic racist fascism. The scene is scary, but

the Germans learned, and keep trying to tell us, that the more they postponed confrontation, the stronger, faster, bigger the numbers grew in white supremacist groups who really are driven by fear, as well. Pelosi's stance is understandable, and perhaps comes from taking the stance that her job is to remain level headed in these times of high tension and conflict.

Fear is contagious. NeoNazis have been organized in the US since 1933. The anger we feel toward those who would hurt any people of color -- or us, our children and grandchildren -- is capable of being channeled away from doubting or hating defenders against fascism, and more toward support of anti-fascists. Which is what we see church antifa people do. We don't all have to stand on the front lines, but I'd rather err on the side of supporting defenders who do than take cynical and defeatist attitudes because they're imperfect or infiltrated.

I recommend Rebecca Solnit's Hope In The Dark -- all of Solnit's books, actually -- which makes a radical case for commitment to act in a world whose future remains uncertain and unknknowable. History supports her claim that "radicals have a long, frequently overlooked record of transformative victories, that the positive consequences of our acts are not always immediately measurable, that the embrace of ucertainty is both more useful and accurate an assessment than either passive optimism or pessimism and despair."

John Berger states that Solnit reminds us that "hope is not a guarantee for tomorrow but a detonator of energy for action today."

Rev. William Barber's Moral Mondays of North Carolina are a good example of antifa activity.

[jalan48]

58. You're contributing to the "many sides" argument of Trump.

You are playing into the right wing Fascist's hands.

[ancianita]

63. That's as far from my intent as any antifa support can be. But please explain more what ideas are

similar to Trump's -- maybe quoting ideas I've stated that can be interpreted as such -- and then how we can speak to defending against white supremacy fascism better.

It would be valuable to everyone here. I'd much appreciate your input.

[jalan48]

64. Do you think everyone who refers to themselves as Antifa is actually Antifa?

Are violent protesters who crash protest marches like the one in Berkeley a few days ago Anntifa? Or, are they provocateurs trying to muddle the message of the peaceful protesters?

Are peaceful protesters Antifa as well? Are all those who write letters to newspapers condemning racist/Fascist behavior Antifa?

It seems anyone can be Antifa if they oppose Fascism-do we have violent vs. non-violent Antifa?

[ancianita]

65. Are you refusing to elaborate on your claim? Your questions seem to imply that you feel no

obligation to prove what you say. Your questions look like setups, but no problem. I'll answer.

No. Not all they who call themselves antifa are. We know them by their defensive action, not their infiltrating provateur violence. I'm pretty sure it only takes one provocateur at any rally to taint the whole. But I still hold that we have to see harder to see who are antifa, so we don't fall into simplistic judgments.

Of course peaceful protestors are antifa. Those who write letters condemning provocateurs are antifa when they sort out the defenders from provocateurs, sure.

As far as we have a 'versus' status with provocateurs, we're supporting true antifa -- with historical justification.

[jalan48]

67. The problem as I see it is lumping all who oppose Fascism into one group-"Antifa".

The question is really one of methods-violent vs. non-violent. Do you support the current violent protesters who identify as "Antifa"? That is what I was referring to and my apology if I misunderstood your intent.

[ancianita]

70. Well, the word sounds weird, yes; likely, the word got shortened for efficiency's sake.

No, I don't support violent protestors who identify as antifa. But I do support protestors who defend against violence they don't initiate.

I'm totally down with anyone can come up with tried-and-true ways to get this neoNazi white supremacist sickness out of our country. Because they in no way represent the patriotic traditions of American dissent. We have to regulate these poisonous, violence-fomenting displays. I'm hanging with and supporting people who show up to defend.

As Schwarzenegger says, in so many words, a country that defeated Hitler's armies has no place for neoNazi ideology or their bigoted supporters.

The fact that neoNazis can cry "fire" in racist, white supremacist parades in public arenas -- and it's still deemed legal -- while to cry "fire" in a crowded theater is not legal, shows a huge deficiency in our public vigilance to square constitutional rights and human rights.

Many benefit from this emotional mess, but as MLK said, "injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere."

[ancianita]

74. OK. I came up with a name to replace "Antifa." I answered Mineral Man's suggestion: U.S. DEFENDER

Last edited Wed Aug 30, 2017, 04:46 PM - Edit history (1)

U.S. Defending Every Force Ending neoNazi Destruction (of) Equality, Race, and Solidarity

Both the acronym and its words look good on the front and back of any shirt.

'I'M A U.S. DEFENDER' looks good, too.
(formerly antifa)

[jalan48]

82. I like it!

[Petrushka]

55. Re: Your list of American anti-fascists

"Page not found" at the link you posted . . . so . . . here's one that works:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:American_anti-fascists


P.S.
Did the people you listed under "C. American anti-fascists" set a good example for their ideals? If so, do you imagine any of them would applaud, encourage, and make excuses for the hot-headed hooligans who vainly engage in violent confrontation, supposedly in defense of those ideals?

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/18/us/unmasking-antifa-anti-fascists-hard-left/index.html

[ancianita]

59. Thank you! I wonder why. It's a wikipedia page. Puzzling.

Back in the Occupy Wall Street days I passed out at least a dozen copies of Work, from CrimeThinc, the Ex-Workers' Collective.

In addition, I distributed Andrew Boyd's Beautiful Trouble, another handbook on creative, impactful protest, Michah White's The End of Protest, and Thomas Harding's The Video Activist's Handbook.

Sharing reading is resistance, too. Not to read is not to understand human history's fight for solidarity.

[Petrushka]

72. You're welcome! But . . . considering my extensive library . . .

. . . you ain't a-gonna teach this here olde granny (with 82 years 'neath her apron) how to suck eggs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teaching_grandmother_to_suck_eggs

[ancianita]

73. I hear ya loud and clear, lady!

[Cal Carpenter]

56. A new book called "Antifa" by Mark Bray

Highly recommended. Gives the historical background of these groups with context. I'd recommend anyone who really wants to understand the tradition of serious anti-fascism read it.

https://www.mhpbooks.com/books/antifa/

Buy it from your local bookshop. If they don't have it in stock they can probably order it for you.

[ancianita]

61. Thank you! I'll be getting it today. It's great that we share readings in times of signal-to-noise

tensions and dangers.

[Coventina]

60. Thank you and a HUGE K&R!!!

[ancianita]

62. ...

[underpants]

76. Rec'd and bookmarking

[leftstreet]

78. DURec

Wow thank you for posting this!

Don't know how I missed it before

[ancianita]

80. Hey, there's a helluva lot going on. No worries. I'm glad you're reading here. Thank you!

[Warpy]

79. The Atlantic took a hard right in the 80s

Before that, they'd been an OK competitor for Harper's, another monthly magazine for people who can read. They've been apologists for the worst of right wing boilerplate, although expressed in better English than the usual run of right wing crap magazines and newspapers.. They adopt a veneer of fairness but they are not fair, not in the least.

In any case, European antifascism is different. Crowds protesting right wingers trying to parade through towns chant "ANTIFA!" but it tends to mean something different and US groups shouldn't feel that much solidarity with them. Europeans avoid violence. Our groups seek it out. US Antifa has more in common with the anarchist Black Bloc than with any antifascism movement. They're not into solidarity with any of us, they're into breaking fascist faces.

The problem is that we have a government and major media who blame all violence on the left and completely ignore the massive violent outrages committed by the far right. They will do this while young punks spoiling for a fight give them someone on the left to blame and there will always be young punks spoiling for a fight, I'm afraid.

[ancianita]

81. So true. I used to subscribe to them both. Still love Harper's. I don't agree about EU antifascism.

Lots of solidarity tweets go on across the planet. They came out of Tunisia, Egypt, The G7 and other protests. We just have to refrain from judging anti-fascist groups as monolithically authoritarian left, because many, many are not. And by doing that we show ourselves to fall for media frames.

For instance, the Women In White (Las Damas de Blanca, I think) in Cuba, during days of Batista's worst behavior, inspired much national support for their daily protests against the jailing of men in the resistance. Women inspire a lot of solidarity because of worldwide respect for motherhood. I'm just taking the great idea -- from James Weldon Johnson in his Autobiography of An Ex-Colored Man, -- about how races --and today, groups -- should be judged by their best members, not their worst. We'd all do well to keep trying to "read" protests that way.

As for the US, I believe that it's not antifa who have common cause with anarchists, but rather, anarchists who seek protests out to infiltrate and use to hide in plain sight. They make it harder for justice protests to gain credibility when Black Block (most of whom are very conscious about their targets) out there ready to strike blows against neoNazis, rather than just show them up for who they are. I've read up on this stuff, and I believe that anarchists are not communist-, neoNazi- or authoritarian-based. They believe they help restrain violent groups by "giving as good as they get," when peaceful protestors are their context. Of course most of us are nervous about their real goals, which are meant to topple bourgeois capitalism. They don't have any good models, that I know of, of what comes after they win. They fail on messaging -- though I've read from some groups that really try -- and thus make everyone around them look as bad as their opponents.

Then the media. Owned by right wingers and of course they're going to blame any and all violence that emerges on the left. Media hang with capitalists, don't give a flyin' tweet about solidarity. Right this minute they refuse to call all the public help response to Harvey solidarity. Profit- and content-driven media are afraid of that word. We have to keep trying to use social media to straighten out the hooliganism and media slop. I don't believe there's ever been any viable protest in America or elsewhere that hasn't had to deal with this bullshit.

Ever seen the movie, No,(2012) with Gael Garcia Bernal? It's about an Argentinian paper that tries to do the right thing against the advance of a right wing candidate. It's a great watch.

Thanks for your thought and effort around here. I appreciate your posts.

[AntiFascist]

104. Too many people equate anti-fascism with anti-capitalism and anarchism...

while there does seem to be an overlap with communists and anarchists, I would point out that fascism came about as an alternative to capitalism just as it also provided an alternative to liberal forms of socialism. Historians argue that it was a "third way" alternative that continues to appeal to more contemporary neo-fascists, as well as Nationalists who reject globalization.

This ideological basis for fascism and anti-fascism needs to be stressed, otherwise ignorant members of the media will continue to associate anti-fascism with communism and anti-capitalism.

[ancianita]

105. Yes, important points. Also, we need to focus on a model that can best secure nationwide solidarity

over authoritarian economics or politics. Yes, the history of fascism is important to remember.

I'm no geopolitical expert, but from my readings and university exposures, Fascism as theory has never worked in practice, except by the mafia model, namely, Russia's.

For America, however, I'd rather stress the bio-determinism underpinnings that fascism and capitalism stand on. Racism. You know, the white supremacist belief that is fascism's dirty secret, and the reason for a few hundred years of colonialism by the West; e.g.'s, Puerto Rico, Philippines, and Caribbean tax havens, South America and India. (I wouldn't be surprised to learn of Koch money behind mercenaries sent to infiltrate antifa demonstrations.)

There's no reason, as Bernie keeps saying, why regulated capitalism can't afford or coexist with socialism (the opposite of authoritarian communism) except for capitalists' contempt for labor and every single human being as deserving of the five basics of human development. Too many Americans still believe cold war hype and shut down over the words themselves.

Thanks for your post.

[AntiFascist]

106. Yes! And thanks for pointing to Putin's Russia as a successful form of Fascism...

Russian government controls its own banks as well as its wealthiest business people, and now right-wing corrupt Oligarchs are interfering with international democracies and are aligned with Trump. Trump himself can no longer even do business with banks unless they are laundering money from Russia or have a Quid Pro Quo arrangement. Trumpism also embraces the white supremacist brand of Nationalist Capitalism you speak of. American fascists openly praise Trump. Trump is attempting to erode fair and equal treatment of all races in every way he can.