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Wed Sep 13, 2017, 01:01 PM

Stalking, actually: why men who reject rejection are not romantic heroes

Stalking, actually: why men who reject rejection are not romantic heroes
Tauriq Moosa

Sitcoms and films teach us to view women as property, and their boundaries as obstacles to overcome. It’s time to call out this creepy, entitled behaviour

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‘Films like Love Actually tell us that men’s persistence in the face of rejection is admirable.’ Photograph: Peter Mountain/imagenet




A man set up a piano in public vowing “to play non-stop until the love of his life returns to him”. He told the Bristol Post it was his “last throw of the dice” to win back the heart of the girl who changed his life”. The article describes him as “heartbroken”. That’s a shame, it really is, but unfortunately, there is nothing cute or romantic about a man making loud, public demands for a woman’s attention, time and affection. The piano player’s vigil has ended – after he says he was attacked early yesterday morning. Obviously nothing about his conduct warrants that sort of reaction, but it’s time that both men and the media stopped presenting such entitled, creepy behaviour as “cute” or deserving of sympathy.

Rejection is painful, but that pain doesn’t give anyone licence to disregard another individual’s assertion of boundaries – which is what rejection is: a drawing of lines excluding us. People are allowed to draw up whatever boundaries they like in terms of who they wish to spend time with or date. As adults we should learn to accept this and move on. But men have long been taught to disregard boundaries, as any glance at statistics of street harassment demonstrates.
People learn behaviours as they grow up in many ways, and it’s not just parents but society and pop culture that teach us what’s acceptable. And these things teach us that such entitled behaviour is not only welcome, but a normal part of relationships. One of the highest rated sitcoms of all time, The Big Bang Theory, has a lead female character outline the basis of her romantic relationship with the male lead by saying: “He started to slowly wear me down.” Cue laughter. On another occasion: “He didn’t trick me, he just wore me down.” More laughs.

. . . .

Showing this boundary crossing behaviour as acceptable, instead of a problem, tells men it is OK in real life. As the academic Julia Lippman noted, “depictions of these romanticized pursuit behaviors can in fact have a clear and negative impact, in that they can lead people to see stalking as a less serious crime than they otherwise would”. Much of the research she summarises indicates how the media can play into myths about stalking – giving rise to victim-blaming (“she’s playing hard to get”), sympathy instead of condemnation, and other erroneous beliefs that lead to men’s harmful behaviours. “People may fail to take stalking seriously because they endorse ‘myths’ about stalking.” After all, the TV and film industry keeps telling us this is romantic because leading men do it all the time. But just because such behaviour has a laughter track accompanying it doesn’t make it alright.

For a start, perhaps we can stop calling grown-up, adult women 'girls' Instead of teaching men to respect women’s boundaries, however painful rejection may be, the media teach us that our feelings, our sense of entitlement, matter more. As men, we’re told to disregard women as people and view them instead as goals to pursue, view rejection as an obstacle to overcome, view boundaries as fences to wear down. Women become property, not partners.

. . . .

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/12/stalking-men-rejection-romantic-sitcoms-films-creepy-women-boundaries

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Reply Stalking, actually: why men who reject rejection are not romantic heroes (Original post)
niyad Sep 13 OP
Are_grits_groceries Sep 13 #1
niyad Sep 13 #4
leftyladyfrommo Sep 13 #6
Bernardo de La Paz Sep 13 #37
Hekate Sep 13 #50
anneboleyn Sep 14 #55
Are_grits_groceries Sep 13 #29
cwydro Sep 13 #2
MineralMan Sep 13 #3
niyad Sep 13 #5
Warpy Sep 13 #32
leftyladyfrommo Sep 13 #7
niyad Sep 13 #9
leftyladyfrommo Sep 13 #14
niyad Sep 13 #15
leftyladyfrommo Sep 13 #21
WhiskeyGrinder Sep 13 #8
niyad Sep 13 #12
DemocratSinceBirth Sep 13 #10
niyad Sep 13 #11
DemocratSinceBirth Sep 13 #13
Ilsa Sep 13 #16
bettyellen Sep 13 #19
Blue_Adept Sep 13 #36
bettyellen Sep 13 #40
Ilsa Sep 13 #43
bettyellen Sep 13 #48
Ilsa Sep 14 #65
bettyellen Sep 14 #66
Binkie The Clown Sep 13 #17
Ligyron Sep 13 #18
bettyellen Sep 13 #20
Ligyron Sep 13 #25
ehrnst Sep 13 #33
bettyellen Sep 13 #51
ehrnst Sep 14 #52
anneboleyn Sep 14 #57
meadowlander Sep 13 #26
bettyellen Sep 13 #27
betsuni Sep 14 #54
RhodeIslandOne Sep 13 #45
crazycatlady Sep 14 #64
RhodeIslandOne Sep 14 #67
crazycatlady Sep 14 #69
RhodeIslandOne Sep 14 #70
anneboleyn Sep 14 #56
bettyellen Sep 14 #58
niyad Sep 14 #59
bettyellen Sep 14 #62
meadowlander Sep 13 #24
niyad Sep 14 #60
ehrnst Sep 13 #34
RhodeIslandOne Sep 13 #47
ehrnst Sep 14 #53
keithbvadu2 Sep 13 #22
Mariana Sep 14 #71
keithbvadu2 Sep 14 #73
bluepen Sep 13 #23
IronLionZion Sep 13 #28
CrispyQ Sep 13 #30
niyad Sep 14 #61
CrispyQ Sep 14 #63
Permanut Sep 13 #31
Podkayne K Sep 13 #35
Blue_Adept Sep 13 #39
Podkayne K Sep 13 #42
Blue_Adept Sep 13 #44
Podkayne K Sep 13 #46
Johnny2X2X Sep 13 #38
Scurrilous Sep 13 #41
nadine_mn Sep 13 #49
Willie Pep Sep 14 #68
uppityperson Sep 14 #72

Response to niyad (Original post)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 01:16 PM

1. Stalking is scary and dangerous.

A serious stalker can ruin a person's life and those around them.
Laws and sentences need to be reformed.

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Response to Are_grits_groceries (Reply #1)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 01:24 PM

4. I don't know if you are old enough to remember this case:

Rebecca Schaeffer

Born Rebecca Lucile Schaeffer
November 6, 1967
Eugene, Oregon, U.S.
Died July 18, 1989 (aged 21)
Los Angeles, California, U.S.
Resting place Ahavai Sholom Cemetery
Education Lincoln High School
Professional Children's School
Occupation Actress, model
Years active 1985–1989

Rebecca Lucile Schaeffer (November 6, 1967 – July 18, 1989) was an American model and actress.

Schaeffer began her career as a teen model before moving on to acting. In 1986, she landed the role of Patricia "Patti" Russell in the CBS sitcom My Sister Sam. After the series was canceled in 1988, Schaeffer appeared in several films, including the black comedy Scenes from the Class Struggle in Beverly Hills, which was released six weeks before her death.

On July 18, 1989, Schaeffer was fatally shot in the doorway of her West Hollywood apartment building by Robert John Bardo. Bardo was obsessed with Schaeffer and had been stalking her for three years. He was sentenced to life imprisonment for her murder. Schaeffer's death helped prompt the 1990 passage of America's first anti-stalking laws, in California.
. . . .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebecca_Schaeffer

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Response to niyad (Reply #4)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 01:29 PM

6. I remember all of that.

She was the cutest young girl.

It was horrible. She opened her door and the guy shot her.

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Response to leftyladyfrommo (Reply #6)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 04:08 PM

37. Young girl or young woman?

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Response to Bernardo de La Paz (Reply #37)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 10:25 PM

50. She was a teen when she started acting

I cut some slack

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Response to leftyladyfrommo (Reply #6)

Thu Sep 14, 2017, 09:42 AM

55. Worse, she opened the door b/c she thought he was delivering a script that had been sent over to her

She was normally extremely cautious (as many women and men in this industry must be since they often attract negative attention from stalking types). She made one mistake, and this scumbag ended a young and very promising life.

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Response to niyad (Reply #4)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 02:52 PM

29. Oh lord yes.

I also watched true crime tv for a while.
The stalker stories were horrifying. If I had one, I have a plan.

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Response to niyad (Original post)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 01:18 PM

2. Happy to k and r. nt

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Response to niyad (Original post)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 01:21 PM

3. I hate stalkers. What an awful thing to do to someone!

If a guy is rejected by someone or a relationship ends, as so many do, he should just move the hell on and leave that person alone. I don't understand any other reaction, really. Life's full of possibilities, but not all of them pan out. So, guys, move on already if you don't succeed in forming or maintaining a relationship with someone. For Pete's sake! Who would want to be in a relationship with someone who did not want to be part of that relationship?

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #3)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 01:26 PM

5. see, there you go, being rational again. I have seen so many of these stories, and what

the victim of the stalker goes through is frightening, cruel, destructive, and, as the Schaeffer story shows, often fatal.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #3)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 03:38 PM

32. Stalkers are wedded to fantasy the same way the religious zealots

who say the earth is only 6,000 years old are. Nothing will dissuade them.

What they do is develop a whole romantic fantasy and hang someone else's face on it. If they know the person, they're dumped pretty quickly because the star of the fantasy hasn't been given the script and the potential stalker is often infuriated by any deviation from it. The stalker might not even know the person being stalked. Any time the famous person is on TV, it's a special message meant only for the stalker.

There are female stalkers out there, most of whom damage or destroy a lot of property. Male stalkers kill women and anyone else who gets in the way.

There is nothing romantic about a stalker. They are insane and occasionally deadly.

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Response to niyad (Original post)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 01:32 PM

7. I had a stalker one time.

The guy was a total weirdo. I didn't know him at all. He was on the same bus.

It was terrifying. I found out later that he beat his wife so bad she was in the hospital.

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Response to leftyladyfrommo (Reply #7)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 01:34 PM

9. terrifying indeed. how did it finally stop?? were you hurt?

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Response to niyad (Reply #9)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 01:40 PM

14. I can't remember how I lost him.

I kept changing buses. And changing stops.

He was pretty young but he wore this awful wig. And his clothes never matched. He was just a real oddball.

I think he may have gotten into trouble and he just wasn't on the bus anymore.

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Response to leftyladyfrommo (Reply #14)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 01:41 PM

15. I am so glad you weren't hurt.

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Response to niyad (Reply #15)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 02:12 PM

21. There were always people around.

Last edited Thu Sep 14, 2017, 03:30 PM - Edit history (1)

But I had gotten so afraid of him that I would have killed him if he had gotten too close.

Those guys are really scary. I was always aware of where of where he was.

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Response to niyad (Original post)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 01:32 PM

8. K&R. The entitlement is horrifying and we're fed it every day from childhood.



He's being so romantic! He's being so nice! I wish someone would treat me like that! Why can't she give him a chance? Why is she being so hard on him? Why is she so frigid? Why is she such a bitch?

Why you gotta be so humorless? It's just a cartoon!


Plus, this dude was a grown-ass 34 years old! Not some clueless high school sophomore!

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #8)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 01:36 PM

12. excellent graphic

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Response to niyad (Original post)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 01:34 PM

10. What about internet stalkers?

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #10)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 01:36 PM

11. do you think they are less, more, or equally dangerous?

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Response to niyad (Reply #11)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 01:37 PM

13. As long as their stalking is confined to the internet they are less dangerous.

The moment their stalking elevates to real life stalking they should be restrained.

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Response to niyad (Original post)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 01:45 PM

16. A little off topic, but why was Love Actually cited?

I cannot recall any story amongst all of the stories that was a stalking case or improper.

The photographer left the groom out of the wedding pictures he had taken, but he wasn't the official photographer. He avoided the object of his crush to the point the groom and bride thought he hated her. The last scene was him telling her that he would always love her, and once he had done that, the "spell" was lifted and he went on to socialize with other women. He didn't do anything that would warrant her calling her husband or police.

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Response to Ilsa (Reply #16)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 02:09 PM

19. Because he did that weird cue card thing putting her in a bizarre position....

She obviously doesn't share his feeling... so if it's Christmas and everyone should tell the truth- shouldn't she tell him she is very creeped out? Shouldn't she call her husband outside to witness the humiliating scene so everyone is honest about what's what?

What's what is this guy who barely knew her had a creepy case of love at first sight, and was taking furtive videos of her, and tried to create false intimacy with her by sharing his "secret". He shoulda told his friend and worked to get over it. Not try to burden her. Ick.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #19)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 04:07 PM

36. Where did she ever say she was creeped out by it?

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Response to Blue_Adept (Reply #36)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 04:55 PM

40. Well that's the part that's unrealistic, to be honest. Anyone who saw his film would be creeped out

They would not, like her character, be totally delighted he only pointed his camera at her. You'd have to be a total narcissist to think that's normal. It's not- it's obsessive behavior and rightfully sends up red flags. Seriously. Someone who doesn't know you - by fees they need to stare at you and so takes secret film footage? Someone you've never had a real conversation with spending hours working on cue cards and putting that sort of performance on- your husbands good friend no less? That's hella creepy. You'd be wondering what other weird plans they're making.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #19)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 07:01 PM

43. She already knew from earlier when she looked at the wedding videos.

And there were no other pics, just the wedding videos, which she and her husband knew were being taken. When she saw they were just of herself, she realized he had a crush on her.

She could have called her husband to the front door when the photographer showed up, but she told him it was carolers. Obviously she wasn't creeped out. He had been avoiding her as much as he could.

He didn't stalk her. He told her that he loved her and that it would be over, a kind of "goodbye".

I didn't see any stalking behavior in him, just someone who had to wrestle with the fact that he was in love with his best friend's wife.

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Response to Ilsa (Reply #43)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 09:53 PM

48. I'm saying the videotaping and the cue cards were OTT weird and it's not great that movies

Are pretending that is cute and normal. The whole part of her acting like it's not weird for her to share this secret with this dude doing little craft projects and secretly filming her? The part where he's obsessed with and it's cute? Not a great message. That's the point of the OP- this weird shit is way too common in movies. The cue card thing was not normal. In real life, that's some creepy shit.

Seriously - your husband's dear friend shows up with a series of cue cards professing his love to you? It's fuckingn weird.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #48)

Thu Sep 14, 2017, 01:08 PM

65. Yeah, weird, but not stalking. nt

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Response to Ilsa (Reply #65)

Thu Sep 14, 2017, 01:27 PM

66. Agreed it isn't technically stalking but also- super red flaggy stuff. To be obsessed

the film footage was creepy as hell- that they portrayed her as happy about it was bizarre. It was like her husband/ his best friend did not exist. Not cool!

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Response to niyad (Original post)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 01:51 PM

17. What about THIS "romantic" guy?



It sounds pretty creepy to modern ears.

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Response to niyad (Original post)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 02:03 PM

18. Why should the discussion be limited to male stalkers?

Plenty of men have stalkers as well. I had to move to get away from one particularly presistant and creepy lady.

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Response to Ligyron (Reply #18)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 02:10 PM

20. What are the movies where stalky women are portrayed as heroines?

I can think of one, Bridesmaids. But that was a satire.

Do any of those teen rom cons teach women stalking men is cool and romantic? Which ones?

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #20)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 02:29 PM

25. You're right.

As far as movies and TV go. When women stalkers are coverd it's a Fatal Attraction.

I was responding more to all the posts here describing exclusively male stalkers.

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Response to Ligyron (Reply #25)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 03:53 PM

33. And of course, there's "The Crush" (nt)

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #33)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 11:43 PM

51. Nope- the weird stalky behavior is not glorified in that movie. Big difference.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #51)

Thu Sep 14, 2017, 08:41 AM

52. Exactly - I'm pointing that female stalking is not portrayed as romantic in movies. (tn)

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #52)

Thu Sep 14, 2017, 09:51 AM

57. It is either a joke OR a partial punishment for sexual transgression (Fatal Attraction, The Crush)

Most of the time it is presented as a joke. These portrayals are not helpful either as they reinforce negative stereotypes, and women can certainly violently stalk men (see the male celebrities who have been stalked and even assaulted by "fans". ALL forms of stalking are radically unhealthy behaviors.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #20)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 02:30 PM

26. There's some Sex in the City episodes

where the heroines engage in borderline stalker behaviour (like the one where Carrie sleeps with her ex and then rummages around the apartment after he leaves to learn more about his new wife or the one where she follows him around all day because she thinks he's cheating and finds out he takes him mother to church - awww). This is portrayed as normal curiosity as opposed to being creepy and intrusive.

And there's lots of examples of "girl has crush on guy and follows him from afar while she works up the nerve to talk to him" plots.

But where they generally don't take it is "guy tells girl he isn't interested but she keeps following him and trying to talk to him and eventually performs some humiliating public gesture that makes him fall into her arms".

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Response to meadowlander (Reply #26)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 02:47 PM

27. I thought Carrie was embarrassed her mistrust led her to such things?

It certainly wasn't rewarded. Anyway, yeah- the girl with the crush always gets contact lenses and a sexy dress and THEN the guy magically likes her. All sorts of shitty messages in those teen movies.

I saw a bit of Sixteen Candles last year and was totally floored to see it featured the hero of the story hand over his passed out drunk girlfriend to another guy to basically see if he can date rape her on the way home. As a favor, he gives this girl he's dumped to a random dude.

She's a drunken tramp- not as nice as Molly Ringwald- so she deserves rape. It was bizarre to think People think that's a classic teen movie. How fucked up was that?

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #27)

Thu Sep 14, 2017, 09:30 AM

54. I saw "Sixteen Candles" for the first time the other day. Disgusting!

The "geek" character harasses the Molly Ringwald character until she runs away and cries, the "yeah, my girlfriend's passed out so you or I can do whatever we want because she takes birth control and is slutty" thing, and the "Chinese exchange student" who's clearly too old to be a high school student and changes ethnicity when he's seen wearing a cheap polyester kimono and yelling "Banzai."

I was shocked because this movie is on the most favorite list. But then I'm not an upper middle class suburban asshole.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #20)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 08:48 PM

45. Half of Taylor Swift's discography?

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Response to RhodeIslandOne (Reply #45)

Thu Sep 14, 2017, 11:37 AM

64. Her MO is date him dump him write a song

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Response to crazycatlady (Reply #64)

Thu Sep 14, 2017, 06:17 PM

67. A chunk of her early songs use the "nice guy" trope, but from the woman's perspective.

She's the funny, down to earth one while the guy she pines for dates "cheerleaders" with "short skirts". You Belong To Me is the one I remember but listening to her albums there are others where the implication that the boy she wants is being superficial by dating someone else and/or just clueless and she's going to win him over.

But those were her teenage years. Nowadays yes it's more about grievances with past lovers she's claiming she jettisoned but there are moments like that We Never Go Out of Style song where she's keeping tabs on her ex and it's vague whether she's being a stalker or is legitimately saying they are on and off again.

But I was only half kidding anyway. I love her stuff, as a 41 year old man I admit it!

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Response to RhodeIslandOne (Reply #67)

Thu Sep 14, 2017, 09:22 PM

69. Have you heard her latest?

She takes shots at the non romantic people in her life that have taken shots at her. Particularly Kayne West.

(The video hints at Kim Kardashian and Katy Perry too). I'm 37 and love her music.

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Response to crazycatlady (Reply #69)

Thu Sep 14, 2017, 09:25 PM

70. I'm not feeling the new stuff yet

Give me a couple weeks.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #20)

Thu Sep 14, 2017, 09:47 AM

56. Not "heroines," but people laugh at the idea of women "stalking" men in the same way that

I've seen people dismiss sexual abuse between adult females and adolescent males (or even ten or eleven year old males -- just saying that they are "lucky". There are many films that make fun of female stalkers, and they never show the female stalkers as a serious violent threat (except in a very few notable cases in which the man has already "transgressed" by engaging with the woman sexually -- as in Fatal Attraction or The Crush -- so he is also being "punished" for his transgression by the stalking behavior)

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Response to anneboleyn (Reply #56)

Thu Sep 14, 2017, 10:48 AM

58. None of the movies you mentioned make light of women staking- they're portrayed as dangerous!

That's the whole point- so many movies have guys who literary become romantic heroes after they've been stalking women. Fatal Attraction is nothing like the movie the OP is talking about. It's about romantic movies. That's the whole point.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #20)

Thu Sep 14, 2017, 11:02 AM

59. thank you. I had been thinking that. so glad you pointed it out.

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Response to niyad (Reply #59)

Thu Sep 14, 2017, 11:15 AM

62. I'm not sure people got it -Fatal Attraction was a horror not a romance!

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Response to Ligyron (Reply #18)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 02:22 PM

24. One of my classmates had to get a restraining order against another classmate

who followed him everywhere, showed up at his house unannounced, called him constantly, and stole my boyfriend's and other people we knew's phones so she could call him without the number being recognised. When we tried to get the phone back, she started "prank" calling us in the middle of the night.

Eventually we complained and got her expelled and barred from campus but the amount of time she wasted and angst she created for everyone in our class, particularly the object of her affection who missed weeks worth of classes, was enormous.

I was going to say that the reason the original post focuses on men is that it's more common in TV shows and movies to show men who stalk women as "just really, really in love with them" and that the more they stalk the more it shows the depths of their love (as opposed to obsession and lack of respect for boundaries).

I think you can get movies and TV shows with women stalking men where it is portrayed as "just a goofy crush" but I think it's probably more rare that you find a man on a TV show saying something like "I didn't like her at first, but she wore me down by constantly following me, calling attention to herself and making dramatic romantic gestures like showing up at my house unannounced with a boombox and refusing to leave".

So I agree that the discussion shouldn't be limited to male stalkers, but also think that the issue with media normalising it occurs more frequently with men stalking women than vice versa.

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Response to meadowlander (Reply #24)

Thu Sep 14, 2017, 11:05 AM

60. and this actually starts very young--when a little girl complains because a little boy is pulling

on her hair, pinching her, otherwise bothering her, she is told "that's because he likes you. it's sweet" NO, it isn't. the kid was apparently not taught boundaries and proper behaviour. and it follows females all the way through their lives.

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Response to Ligyron (Reply #18)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 03:59 PM

34. But they are portrayed in popular entertainment as creepy, or laughable, not as romantic leads

The discussion is about popular entertainment.

The romantic stalker male fits the heterosexual model - the woman needs to play hard to get, and the man needs to keep on trying.

The "loser" woman who doesn't apologize and "give up" if she isn't desirable is being played out writ large in the "Hillary needs to just stop, she's making things worse" narrative. She isn't "getting the hint" that many men don't want to hear from her...

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #34)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 09:03 PM

47. "Legally Blonde" is one I remember....

....where the Reese Witherspoon role exhibits stalker tendencies.

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Response to RhodeIslandOne (Reply #47)

Thu Sep 14, 2017, 08:53 AM

53. Yes, that moves towards it - however the movie shows her finding happiness when she stops

looking to him for validation, and moves on to a more fulfilled life than one she would have had with him.

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Response to niyad (Original post)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 02:17 PM

22. Add: throwing acid in the face of the woman who rejected you.

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Response to keithbvadu2 (Reply #22)

Thu Sep 14, 2017, 09:39 PM

71. When has someone who did that

ever been portrayed as a romantic hero in literature, television, or film?

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Response to Mariana (Reply #71)

Thu Sep 14, 2017, 10:17 PM

73. In their own mind.

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Response to niyad (Original post)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 02:18 PM

23. Great stalker novel: YOU by Caroline Kepnes

The protagonist is fascinating and funny and scary, the narrative is engrossing, making for a book that was hard to put down. It's as much a character study as it is a thriller. The sequel, HIDDEN BODIES, is really great too.


“Hypnotic and scary.” —Stephen King

From debut author Caroline Kepnes comes You, one of Suspense Magazine’s Best Books of 2014, and a brilliant and terrifying novel for the social media age.

When a beautiful, aspiring writer strides into the East Village bookstore where Joe Goldberg works, he does what anyone would do: he Googles the name on her credit card.

There is only one Guinevere Beck in New York City. She has a public Facebook account and Tweets incessantly, telling Joe everything he needs to know: she is simply Beck to her friends, she went to Brown University, she lives on Bank Street, and she’ll be at a bar in Brooklyn tonight—the perfect place for a “chance” meeting.

As Joe invisibly and obsessively takes control of Beck’s life, he orchestrates a series of events to ensure Beck finds herself in his waiting arms. Moving from stalker to boyfriend, Joe transforms himself into Beck’s perfect man, all while quietly removing the obstacles that stand in their way—even if it means murder.

A terrifying exploration of how vulnerable we all are to stalking and manipulation, debut author Caroline Kepnes delivers a razor-sharp novel for our hyper-connected digital age. You is a compulsively readable page-turner that’s being compared to Gone Girl, American Psycho, and Stephen King’s Misery.

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Response to niyad (Original post)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 02:49 PM

28. These losers ruin it for everyone

I get rejected all the time, quite a lot. It hasn't killed me. Next!

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Response to niyad (Original post)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 03:09 PM

30. A similar theme here:

What The 2 Deadliest Mass Shootings This Year Have In Common

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029589828

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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #30)

Thu Sep 14, 2017, 11:07 AM

61. thank you. very important points.

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Response to niyad (Reply #61)

Thu Sep 14, 2017, 11:30 AM

63. The story of the 8 dead people - going after her family.



I have the news on quite a lot & I don't recall hearing a thing about this. It would at least have gotten a bottom banner notice if it had happened in a theater or bar.

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Response to niyad (Original post)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 03:24 PM

31. Just speaking for my own experience. .

as a 71 year old male, stalking by women and stalking by men are not even remotely equivalent. My little partner and I have been together for thirty years, and no one has touched her without her permission in all those years.

Wasn't the same in the beginning though; I bought a gun and persuaded her stalker to move a thousand miles away. As far as I know, he hasn't been back.

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Response to niyad (Original post)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 04:00 PM

35. Bad Analogies make bad arguments

While I totally agree with the premise, I think using "The Big Bang Theory" as an example is both puzzling and wrong. First, Leonard didn't stalk Penny. A lot of the time they were friends and in some cases had each other's interest both at heart and in mind. Penny lived across the hall, and she could have moved at any time or called off their relationship--both as friends and as lovers--also at any time, and several times she did terminate the latter. Leonard was bummed--as anyone would be--but he remained her friend and helped her out several times when she needed his friendship.

As to the statement, "He wore me down." Really, that's what you got? More than once I've heard people in real life say those kind of things, understanding they are just joking and they really don't mean it in any way shape or form as you do. Penny in the sitcom may not have the book smarts that the guys have, but she isn't helpless or dumb or weak. If she didn't want to be with Leonard, she wouldn't have married him, and she would leave the situation if she were dissatisfied.

I realize we're discussing a sitcom here, and sitcoms are not real life, in any way, shape, or form. However, since you used one as your go to, I have to whole heartedly disagree. In popular media, there are dozens of movies and sitcoms, which would better illustrate your point. But I just can't see BBT as being anything even close to the case you're trying to make.

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Response to Podkayne K (Reply #35)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 04:43 PM

39. Almost nothing from TV, especially sitcoms, or the majority of romantic comedies

or outright romance movies or romance novels, will pass the right test in this regard.

People will emulate them without realizing the bad parts. Others can see the bad parts and understand that they're bad in a way but also crave them. They want to have a certain kind of attention and there's nothing inherently wrong with that.

It's like when digging into sexual fetishes, there are things that will just horrify some but will be completely acceptable to others (both parties, not one and not the other).

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Response to Blue_Adept (Reply #39)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 06:36 PM

42. TOTALLY AGREE!

But I do not understand the nature of this answer.

The example I referenced was one particular Sitcom and whether it fit the analogy made. If this is to say different people would see it different ways, I obviously can't disagree. The only problem with that argument is that it can be used for just about anything. IE: all those nice Nazi's--according to he who must not be named--just expressing their viewpoint in Charlottesville.

But my point is wouldn't it still be better to use a movie or sitcom that more obviously involves stalking working for someone and everyone taking it as cute or romantic or some such dreck, rather than using an example that is quite a stretch at best?

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Response to Podkayne K (Reply #42)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 08:05 PM

44. BBT is an easy target, low hanging fruit.

Like you said, the example from within it is something that seems creepy from the outside but not from the actual way the series unfolded.

Hell, my wife would be able to say the same thing about how I "wore her down" in a sense as time went on. She'd say it with a range of emotions that those in attendance would know it was humorous, or just a deadpan way of playing it.

But in the context of how the article presents it with BBT, it's pure stalky material.

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Response to Blue_Adept (Reply #44)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 08:58 PM

46. Last Reply!

What you seem to be saying is that any attempt at let us call it "courting" can be spun as stalking???

In the show, these two were friends, lovers, back to friends, then back to lovers, and still friends as well as lovers, husband and wife. If you want to use an example of stalking from BBT, go back to pilot year and see how Howard--who thankfully has been made less creepy as time goes by--went after Penny. And watch how Penny basically tells him he is creepy and to buzz off.

Penny knows stalker from boyfriend, and I don't think she would have been with Leonard if he were the former.

Be well,

Podkayne

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Response to niyad (Original post)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 04:10 PM

38. Women go thru so much BS

I don't even know how you all do it? So much BS from entitled men who won't respect your right to be free from that type of garbage.

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Response to niyad (Original post)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 04:58 PM

41. K&R

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Response to niyad (Original post)

Wed Sep 13, 2017, 10:17 PM

49. Many women fall into the narrative that a guy who does take no

For an answer must not really love them...based on moves, books, tv.

Not only are men taught not to respect women's boundaries, but women are taught that saying no is just an obstacle to be overcome.

Women are also stalkers but are more likely to be portrayed as "psycho" or pathetic, whereas for men it's seen as romantic.

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Response to niyad (Original post)

Thu Sep 14, 2017, 06:35 PM

68. This is why romantic comedies are usually terrible.

I don't know anyone who acts like the characters in those movies, which is probably a good thing.

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Response to niyad (Original post)

Thu Sep 14, 2017, 09:43 PM

72. No mention of Twilight?

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