General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsOccupy Denver Posts Terrible Message
Colorado is now tied in the latest poll - and this is what they offer.
They've lost me. http://www.facebook.com/occupydenver
fishwax
(29,146 posts)Judging by the discussion of the image on the group's facebook page, most members and fans oppose it as well.
otohara
(24,135 posts)I got into it with my son's friend on a FB discussion and this sort of talk amongst the youngsters is troubling. This is a person who lives in N.C., registered to vote and didn't vote in their special election which went 60/40 against LGBT right to marry. He is a high profile person and many follow his words, then I stepped in to point out what happened in 2010 and in his own back yard, which BTW he didn't vote in and now is SORRY.
No, no, no - this is not the message to send to the low info voters - like my son's friends, who think they are up on politics, but don't yet understand the price we all pay when people don't vote.
Latest poll in Colorado
Obama - 45
Serial liar - 44
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)I don't agree with the sentiment at all either, but I can see where it comes from.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)but Democrats have not been kind to the occupy movement.
LibAsHell
(180 posts)The Occupy Wall Street Facebook profile completely lost me a few weeks ago when they posted an anti-vaccination image and then a bunch 9/11 inside job crap within the span of a few days. Very disappointing.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,207 posts)Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)stuff was a huge turn off.
All turned out to be true, but what a turn off!
Tarheel_Dem
(31,207 posts)Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)Tarheel_Dem
(31,207 posts)EOTE
(13,409 posts)Just as it was a conspiracy that Iraq didn't actually have WMD until that turned out to be undeniable. The Bush administration was loaded with conspiracies. Only some of them are now recognized truths while others will be in due time, perhaps years, perhaps decades, but the truth will out.
kimbutgar
(20,882 posts)elected President because they didn't vote for President Obama.
randome
(34,845 posts)Some of those who simply can't accept that OWS has failed will become so depressed, they may become next year's Conservatives.
Starting to sound like Tea Baggers now. That probably should not surprise us since the same mindset gave birth to both groups.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,207 posts)everyone and everything aside, what is their message? And what is the point? I'm beginning to think this is just another Koch style distraction, much like the Tea Party, and that's just sad.
randome
(34,845 posts)Ah, who am I kidding? Ridicule isn't called for here. Sure, they had a purpose at the start. They DID get us all talking about the 1% versus the 99%. They helped some people in need.
I congratulate them on that.
But that's all they did.
If they wanted to start a revolution, they failed. And now, still without a leader, they clash with cops for the rights to chalk up the sidewalks. Admittedly, the police have come down too hard on them. That's undeniable.
But they can put the blame anywhere they want, the Reality is this: their message is no longer the 1% versus the 99%. Whether the cops and corporatocray succeeded or OWS failed is irrelevant. The message is no longer being pushed forward.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,207 posts)"a leader", but for obvious reasons, the forces behind the organization may not want us to know. I do, however, agree that they were useful at changing the conversation. But you have to ask yourself, why any movement would want to neuter itself politically? And why they've spent so much time attacking Democrats?
For all the noise, at the end of the day, the "movement" cost the citizenry an untold amount of resources....and for what?
MADem
(135,425 posts)college funds with all that overtime!
I don't think OWS used the initial wash of goodwill that was felt for them, or the opportunities that presented themselves, very well at all. They could have been a real mainstream movement, but the agita and chaos -- and the lack of any real coherent vision and roadmap for the future--has sort of tamped down the enthusiasm. I would have thought, with the good weather, they'd be in full swing again, but it doesn't look like it's happening. It's like a moment that was here and is now a fresh memory. Not quite gone, but not as powerful as the moment.
turtlerescue1
(1,013 posts)you cannot build a wall and expect it to be a bridge to others.
otohara
(24,135 posts)and still it exists, on the other hand, maybe that's because 105 of the low info Occupy Denver followers have "liked" the message.
It's not even original - the so called clever artist who designed this - stole the art/message from the Viacom Corporation.
turtlerescue1
(1,013 posts)Maybe we did learn something in the sixties, NOT until a vast number stood and marched with us did we stand a snowball's chance to change, alter or reform anything.
You can catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
MrSlayer
(22,143 posts)The refusal to become political. Huge opportunity wasted. They didn't want to be "co-opted" by the Democratic party. They should have taken the fucking party over like the teabaggers took the Republican party.
randome
(34,845 posts)Because no one wanted to step up and be a leader, that meme was born. But that's all it ever was.
MrSlayer
(22,143 posts)There should have been massive registration drives, petitions to get candidates on ballots and other organizing activities going on at all the Occupy sites. There was a point when the public was on their side, when regular working people were out there. That's when the iron should have been struck. Now it's just the fringe people again and no one gives a shit. Opportunity wasted.
zappaman
(20,605 posts)What a wasted opportunity...
MADem
(135,425 posts)Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)It finds its roots in a number of precedents, including Gene Sharp's "The Dynamics of Nonviolent Action."
randome
(34,845 posts)Was there a class?
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)they don't contribute votes so they are irrelevant.
A political dead-end.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)You can pay attention to my posts on DU regarding its clear victories
or not
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)they decided they were a social movement after they lost all relevancy and it got kinda embarrassing.
For that matter as a social movement they've failed as well as they started out with a high level of support that has been steadily dropping.
A social movement that turns society against it is pretty unsuccessful.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/11/16/1037042/-Support-for-Occupy-Wall-Street-drops-in-nbsp-new-nbsp-poll
/less support than the tea-party? Yikes.
//they have no plan that could possibly succeed, they are steadily losing support, and what political clout they may have had has been entirely squandered. Long story short: they are irrelevant.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)for get ready for this... REGISTERING VOTERS at the Civic Center...
He even went to see the Judge over that one...
And why local occupiers like ran for office
Or they were PART of the DEMOCRATIC PARTY delegation.
They are not the Tea Party of the D's but do these things fit your definition of political man?
Robb
(39,665 posts)The protestations that "all of OWS isn't like this" rings like Teahadists "disavowing" racist knuckledraggers, frankly.
vaberella
(24,634 posts)mmonk
(52,589 posts)However, I'm under the opinion that both voting and creating a movement is needed. I'm not sure either alone will do the trick. There are always Democrats that vote with the Republicans on crucial issues which makes our tasks harder.
RZM
(8,556 posts)I think it got started about 20 years ago as a cynical response to MTV's 'Rock the Vote' campaign. AFAIK, MTV abandoned the slogan a long time ago.
I remember people passing around a catalog selling stickers/shirts with this logo at a Rage Against the Machine concert back in the mid-90s.
otohara
(24,135 posts)Occupy Denver thinks some clever supporter designed it.
This is what they say about the gif:
Concept by a dedicated Denver #Occupier. An epic sentiment #ftw --
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
pintobean
(18,101 posts)dionysus
(26,467 posts)occupy.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)That's why.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)You've put a lot of work into researching my posts. I guess I should be flattered. And no, you're not more liberal than I am.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)And I say this as a participant in Occupy Denver.
There are some people in the movement that can listen to reason though.
pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)comments are always predictable. Now I just watch them rather than bother attempting to enlighten them. While some spend their time trying to crush a Social Justice movement, millions across the world are out there getting things done.
I remember back during the Bush years when I used to think I could educate rightwingers with facts, but then I learned, they were willfully ignorant, they wanted to believe what they believed. So I stopped wasting time on them.
From the beginning of this movement, there has been a huge fear of its success and its ongoing growth across the world, only getting bigger as more corruption is uncovered. I wasted a lot of time attempting to enlighten those who I gave the benefit of the doubt to, that maybe they didn't understand it. But when you see the same people all the time, attempting to discredit a movement that consists of millions of people worldwide, it's time to simply sit back and smile when they appear, predictably, each time someone searches through the literally thousands of actions taking place around this country and the world to try to find something negative. It's funny to me now. And futile on their part.
Don't expect any positive reaction to your post, but for those reading, it was worth your while to post it.
This reminds me of the Right Wing Fundy source used here to attack OWS for beating up Catholic girls or some such horrific claim. It didn't matter how many people pointed out how incorrect the Religious Fundy, well-known btw, was, for some they had to beleeeeeeeeve it, because they wanted to.
What was even funnier about that was the lack of outrage over using a totally discredited right wing source, by some of the same people who claim to be outraged when someone inadvertently uses a questionable source. People notice these things and keep them in mind from a credibility standpoint.
Go OCCUPY!!
They changed and continue to change the dialogue, and maybe even in some instances in parts of the world so far, the course this world was on.
Anyone who thinks OWS is not political, see France, Tunisia, Egypt and Spain, Greece and soon to be Italy, but especially worth watching right now is Spain. GO INDIGNADOS! The inspiration for Occupy.
However I do love these threads because they are so revealing. And I love the declarations of 'failure' which have been around from Sept 17th of last year. Wishful thinking, but don't you wonder why anyone on the Left would have that attitude? The Right always hates Social Justice movements, we expect that.
randome
(34,845 posts)I'll give them that.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Zorra
(27,670 posts)It's a keeper.
Thanks!
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)"The System provides"
"All hail The System!"
Pathetic.
Occupy, and vote for Democrats.
Posted by Zorra in GLBT
Sat Dec 10th 2011, 04:50 PM
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Zorra/214
It is clear that we have much larger numbers of allies among Democratic legislators, and few or none among republicans.
It is clear that the system is compromised, and that enormous pressure must be put on the system to bring about the tension that leads to positive constructive change, particularly toward equality.
I firmly believe that, if we put a Democratic majority in both Houses 2012, and Obama back in the WH, that we will attain marriage and employment equality under federal law at sometime within the next 2-4 years.
The RW agenda must be continually and relentlessly exposed and defeated on every front by every non-violent means available.
With regard to the protection afforded us by the judicial system:
Whoever is President from 2013 to 2017 will be appointing one or more SCOTUS justices. Do we want Obama to appoint these justices, or a Mormon, like Mitt Romney, a phony RW fundamentalist freak like Newt Gingrich, or crazy lady Michelle Bachmann, appointing these justices?
This should be a no brainer for our community, (excepting maybe Log Cabin Republicans, speaking of no brainers).
Here is a quote attributed to Plato:
One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors."
Here is a quote from Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., "Letter From A Birmingham Jail":
"You may well ask: "Why direct action? Why sit ins, marches and so forth? Isn't negotiation a better path?" You are quite right in calling for negotiation. Indeed, this is the very purpose of direct action. Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks so to dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored. My citing the creation of tension as part of the work of the nonviolent resister may sound rather shocking. But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word "tension." I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth. Just as Socrates felt that it was necessary to create a tension in the mind so that individuals could rise from the bondage of myths and half truths to the unfettered realm of creative analysis and objective appraisal, so must we see the need for nonviolent gadflies to create the kind of tension in society that will help men rise from the dark depths of prejudice and racism to the majestic heights of understanding and brotherhood. The purpose of our direct action program is to create a situation so crisis packed that it will inevitably open the door to negotiation. I therefore concur with you in your call for negotiation..."
http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/L...
Equality and Solidarity
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Besides, the parties are both the same, brah! Like, I heard it from Alex Jones, brah.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,207 posts)Pirate Smile
(27,617 posts)to change things. I have never understood this position. It is ridiculous and self-indulgent.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.
Buckminster Fuller
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)and registered voters.
Big mistake, thinking that Occupy is just one mass of people
For crying out loud, RAY LUTZ was ARRESTED for yes... you guessed it... REGISTERING VOTERS.
MineralMan
(146,192 posts)Giving up your vote is the very same thing as allowing someone to take it from you. Never give up!
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)for free.
DevonRex
(22,541 posts)Seems like it is run by adults anyway, or at least people who live on this planet.
MADem
(135,425 posts)that....either that, or one of those Paulites.
It's suggestive of a serious lack of maturity.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)would approve of that message. Quite the opposite in fact.
MADem
(135,425 posts)myself for my trouble and told that I'm a fogie who doesn't "understand"...!
I just ask the old "Cui bono?" question....and the answer here, as it has been when those shitheads burn flags after stealing them, without any real purposeful protest behind it, destroy hundred year old architectural models, vandalize, spray-paint, confront cops in an unnecessarily aggressive manner, throw rocks, cause shit, etc., is NOT Occupy.
The ones who benefit are the people who don't like Occupy, and those punky little shits are always in the thick of the troublemaking--then they run off like little chickenshits and let the Kumbayah crowd feel the truncheon and mace.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Occupy is all about. And you are correct about them runing away after the create trouble. I have never seen one of them be arrested, and I watched pretty closely hoping for that so that the Attorneys could get some more info on them. But somehow they always manage to get away.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)I swear the OWS is like 90% false-flag operators.
Either the cops or the anarchists or the republicans.
It's hard to find any actual supporters of the movement.
MADem
(135,425 posts)I wouldn't say 90 percent, but it does seem that there are groups of troublemakers that are disavowed regularly when anything goes amiss.
I think there were a lot of hangers-on who really couldn't be said to be too interested in the philosophy of the effort, as well, but they are people surviving on the margins who enjoyed the relative safety of the urban encampments and the free food/socks, etc. that were donated. Who could blame them?
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)change the game, in any event. Imagine twenty people in a cargo elevator--one person farts and life is miserable for all.
I am the first to admit I have no expertise in crowd manipulation!
Zanzoobar
(894 posts)vaberella
(24,634 posts)joshcryer
(62,265 posts)Occupy is both a political and anti-political movement, which is good, because if it was wholly political it would lose its vision, but if it was entirely anti-political it wouldn't have much sway. It's right there in the middle.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)I don't agree with the notion expressed, but I know people who do whose opinions I respect and value. It's okay for people to disagree as long as they do so thoughtfully and with good intentions.
Robb
(39,665 posts)What other grand illuminations arise from these giants of political thought?
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)Or are you just engaging in lame snark?
Robb
(39,665 posts)Too subtle?
MADem
(135,425 posts)Who wanted to be there, though?
Jamaal510
(10,893 posts)but this sounds like the doing of some RW infiltrators in order to depress Democratic turnout, especially considering Republicans nationwide enacting voter ID laws. I'm sure that most Occupiers are smart enough to know that you have to vote in order to try getting your interests represented.
zappaman
(20,605 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)The reason that the movement is shrinking is because of those black hoodie, troublemaking assholes. What old hippies want to go down to the Occupy with the grandkids if the vibe is going to be bricks, barricades and pepper spray?
The vibe needs to be positive, upbeat, determined, productive, along the lines of "We can change the world" not "Fuck the police."
I think Occupy needs leadership at the national level. Maybe a Board of Directors paradigm, with leaders from all walks of life and persuasions, but the way it works right now...well, it isn't working.
The opportunity is being squandered, to put it bluntly. If they don't get their shit together soon, they'll be relegated to the fringe--well meaning, like Code Pink, but "way out there" and frankly, mocked.
It's a shame. The potential is there. Won't be there forever, though.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)"We can change the world" instead of "Fuck the Police"
Sid
MADem
(135,425 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)from the beginning? The black block guys and gals, or the police violence? I can tell you, in San Diego, the POLICE VIOLENCE.
Here is one for you to ponder. The cops confiscated an AMERICAN FLAG from a vet, since it violated City Muni Code going to 1979, about how tall and how wide a pole could be at a demonstration. It was a small flag pole.
Guess what was at the Comic Con this week which VIOLATED that same muni code by spades and was never confiscated? Hell, the cops only enforced, half heartily, the noise pollution codes.
Yup, VERY TALL signs, and crosses. I will even post one of those photos and links to the rest.
Links to where the rest of the photos are.
http://nadinbrzezinski.posterous.com/and-the-con-got-proselytized-at
http://nadinbrzezinski.posterous.com/con-got-proselytized-part-two
For the damn record, I have no issue with the Muni Code, as long as it gets enforced equally, which it is not. This has been one of the chief complaints from insert occupation here.
MADem
(135,425 posts)All I know is what I see. A bunch of happy people not being jerks....and then along come the black block fuckers.
Guys in hoodies, vandalizing, spray painting, busting up hundred year old models in city offices, burning flags, wrecking grocery stores, breaking windows....that puts the po po on the defensive, and you're off to the races.
In Boston, they ratted those hoodie asshole guys out to the cops after they spray painted a bunch of buildings. They also fingered the drug dealers/hard drug users/people engaging in prostitution/situations where children appeared endangered and got the cops to arrest them. The place wasn't crime free but it was safer than many other locations. It was also very clean because hygiene discipline was strictly enforced.
Aside from the fact that they didn't get to keep their kitchen sink, the Occupy people got along real well with the cops. The cops and the mayor were not jerky.
They did have de facto leadership at that location, though and they did not regard the police as "the enemy" or every interaction with them as a confrontation.
They'd do well to elect leaders at Occupy sites, hire lawyers (or get lawyers to volunteer) and "professional up" their game. They need to know the law better than the cops, not whine because they aren't getting away with breaking it or carp because it is perceived to be applied unfairly.
This free-flow stuff isn't working. This movement should be huge this year, bursting at the seams, packing 'em in like the Vietnam War demos...but instead, it's just rag tag groups with no real "goose." The only time I have seen really big demos is when a UNION (with leaders, organization, permits, signs, understanding of the law, people on the ground to get stuff moving) gets involved. Then you have something that works. Otherwise, it's just urban camping and a lot of talk and little action save confrontation. The foreclosure stuff is sometimes OK, but that's not a movement. That's just a couple of people crashing in the way of the sherriff, who welcomes the excuse to go away/come back another day.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)was not created by the Black Block... but San Diego PD, who even threatened a 13 year old kid with arrest if she put a sign down, using Muni Code on Encroachment.
The code was abused by the cops, to create that very threatening environment. I am just letting you know the facts of this very local occupation.
As far as the black block locally, I even joked with them last week that they were early for Comic-Con.
And no, the Occupiers did not get in any cop's face either... but the orders, I am betting, came from way to the top and the city mayor.
You are talking from what you have seen, on the net. I am talking of in very much in person, while covering them.
And again, we had one rally over TTP organized by the Central Labor council with 300 people or so. We had a march the SAME week with 300 people or so, six days later.
Granted, if you tried to tune in to oh NBC... nope, you will have to go read this in alternate small indie press.
MADem
(135,425 posts)I would wager that if the black block shits were given the wrong location for the riot demonstrations, that the actual ones would go off peacefully.
If you don't want to take that view, I don't insist you do. We simply differ.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)were actually undercover cops, it is also a tactic.
And no, they are NOT anecdotes, we watched this happen LIVE. You may want to read the news stories on this in local indie press.
You are having a problem with this, I have no idea why?
I guess the fact that there was planning at the national level by authorities is also an anecdote.
MADem
(135,425 posts)is worse, who started what, etc...and you went ahead and are doing it anyway.
indeed.
I said We Differ. There is nothing wrong with that.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)which contradict your preconceptions.
I am sorry I cannot help you even with facts. Some of us have actually GONE THERE and reported on the story, sorry if that hurts.
MADem
(135,425 posts)zappaman
(20,605 posts)we know what is going on.
keep up the great journalistic work!
I smell a Pulitzer!!!
lonestarnot
(77,097 posts)the vote, but not here.
randome
(34,845 posts)But this is Democratic Underground.
AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)#1 Atlanta Occupy Turns Away John Lewis
#2 TDS: Occupy Wall Street Divided
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-november-16-2011/occupy-wall-street-divided
Tarheel_Dem
(31,207 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)A great man and someone who has supported Occupy from the beginning. But the morons on the right of course, as if they cared anything for a Civil Rights hero like Lewis, tried to use it against Ocuppy, which they naturally hate. He did not give them that satisfaction and most graciously stated that he was not 'rejected' by OWS but could not wait as he had another event to go to.
But it's interesting that you would repeat this. As I said already, I love these threads as they reveal so much that people need to know.
So maybe you should not use a Civil Rights hero to try to discredit a Social Justice Movement which he supports. He didn't seem to want people to do that. He sure knows all about such tactics though, as no Movement was more attacked than the one he was a part of.
Occupy is going to be around for years, so people may as well get used to it..
AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)That's odd. I posted a succinctly labeled video without comment. Could it be the truth is obvious, that Mr. Lewis was disrespected, and you just aren't having it? No worries, that's a rhetorical question.
cecilfirefox
(784 posts)ever had the displeasure of witnessing. They are arktards who will march and sing patriotic tunes as opposed to... Voting, volunteering, and electing candidates.
The problem with these people is they are LAZY. They don't want to work. They'd rather protest, talk about their feelings, and enjoy being around like minded people over actually changing the electorate, the country, and our government.
As my father would say, useless as tits on a boarhog.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)and requested an immediate moratorium on foreclosures in California. This is now a model for the rest of the states in the country.
Check out OFF saving a widow's home from being illegally foreclosed upon. She has a daughter with Plasmosis Cerebral Palsy but BofA and the property flipper tried over and over to throw them on the street...and in fact, she and her family and property WERE on the street when OFF showed up to help:
http://occupyobservations.blogspot.com/2012/05/dirma-beats-foreclosure.html
But thank you for your support
I KNOW you'll be interested in learning even more about what we've accomplished for the benefit of all:
http://whatthefuckhasoccupydone.com/
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)got arrested for registering voters.
Half the delegation inside the Democratic Party convention was from OSD and allied occupations.
They got the NRC to pay attention to San Onofre...
They have been working on social justice issues, including minor things like white slavery, you even know what that is?
They have run for office, and worked at campaigns.
Is that making your head reel already?
Oh wait, I guess you would agree with the SD County Sheriff who repeated the media mantra that they are all homeless and drug addicts... right?
U4ikLefty
(4,012 posts)A graphic on FB...really?
limpyhobbler
(8,244 posts)Whoever posted that graphic might be an idiot. If it is still on facebook hopefully they will take it down. Everybody makes mistakes.
Or they should just take vote to take it down. Or use the Weiner Defense. Say your account was hacked. (Named for Congressman Anthony Weiner, for those not familiar with the Weiner Defense, look it up you may need it some day.)
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)The never had a simple coherent message, they never had a decent spokesperson and now this crap. I hope the Democrats are smart enough to stay away from this.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)Politicians are doing NOTHING to stop the theft, or to retrieve the TRILLIONS of dollars handed over. Someone has to do something.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)because of some people occupying a park, leaving behind a disgusting mess and pissing off everyone who needs to go through the area to go to work or home. The winning message is income and tax code inequality but it's like the movement has ADD - there is simply no focus.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)physical occupation RIGHT NOW?
You are well behind the times, by about six months.
Know though the Homeowner's Bill of Rights in California, the Governor just signed...guess who he credited? Yup, them horrible occupiers.
So tell me what exactly have YOU done lately?
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)In fact, it's the best thing about them. I called them ineffective which they are. Good for California but a deep blue state like that would have gotten that bill of rights regardless.
What have I done? Other than giving money, being part of voter registration drives 4 times this year already and signed up for phone banking - not a thing.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)an Occupier went to see the judge over, ready for this? REGISTERING VOTERS
Others have occupied the PARTY...
A few have run for office.
ANd locally they have been essential in getting the NRC to pay attention to San Onofre.
You, on the other hand, are repeating MSM memes.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)in the streets last week. over the TTP, in NUMBERS.
By the way, what angers the Democrats, we know, is that OWS never was and never will be, the D's Tea Party.
It is a social justice movement, and the MSM told you they had no coherent message, but tell me... is talking about money out of politics and fixing the foreclosure crisis NOT coherent for you?
Arkana
(24,347 posts)by gosh, golly goldurnit!
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)you are conflating one Occupy, and there is a chance this didn't even go through any GA, with the whole movement.
It is a major mistake. There are major differences from city to city. Hell, here in San Diego we have MANY occupies, as many as cities in the County. We have even had Occupiers arrested for registering voters... no I am not shitting you there.
Please do not make that mistake
Here, since they happen to be my beat, they had a Fuck the police march... some of our local occupiers, which was NEVER, EVER approved by the GA.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)It'll do the same amount of good the occupy movement is doing.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)I am stating a fact.
There were three hundred people outside the Bay Front Hotel the Monday before last raising an alarm over TTP. This was a Labor\Occupy action.
Three hundred more marched though down town San Diego, to the Bayfront Hotel on a Saturday morning, the same week, over the TTP. That is not a dead movement
They have also made the NRC pay attention to San Onofre, after getting every North County City Council to damn well pay attention.
They were thanked by Kamela Harris over the Homeowners Bill of Rights, as well as the Governor.
They have been thanked by those working on Bank fraud in different states.
That is hardly a dead movement.
You may believe they are, but they are not.
Locally they also faced arrest for registering voters, and they occupied the State Democratic Convention, and one made it to the November Ballot. That again, is not a dead movement. They are my beat, sorry... I happen to cover them REGULARLY, unlike the local big boys, or even national press.
I even posted photos from the very much dead movement here on the old DU... I shot enough to share a few here that were not run by the paper.
What they have done is move to PHASE TWO...
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)will be more effective. I'm not holding my breath. And if they're going to suggest people not voting is an answer, then they really are part of the problem.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)does not a movement make. When you bring me evidence that Occupy Denver endorsed this though the General Assembly, (what is that I can hear now), then I will listen to you, that this is an occupy problem. Having seen Ray Lutz arrested and charged with disorderly conduct and resisting arrest for REGISTERING voters, I have very little patience for this willful ignorance.
That said, They ARE. We have posted some of the things they have done so far. Problem is, YOUR NATIONAL AND LOCAL media are not reporting on this. You will need to rely on INDEPENDENT media. Don't worry, we watched the other day, WE got an exclusive at Comic Con with Labor. Care to tell me what CNN did? Ignored them. Local TV media, turned their backs.
zappaman
(20,605 posts)Also doesn't make for an accurate article about soldiers on "sooper duper secret missions in Syria", does it?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002179652
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)OWS NYC have stated this before in more coarse terminology. Many in OWS may vote for various candidates, but many also believe the extant system to be at the top levels, corrupt beyond redemption (barring the end of citizens' united and re-installation of Glass-Steagall).
Be happy there is a powerful organization willing to be watchdog about all of this, to not participate in a system which would seek to corrupt them and their work. Keep the bastards honest, always, or replace them with something better.
For example, see the Chomsky quote on their page:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=337953726279483&set=a.187420004666190.46194.185366764871514&type=1&theater
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)locally we have had OCCUPY folk RUN for office and occupy the democratic party.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)If they remain unbought, good luck on changing things at the top level where everything is. I do not believe the Change we need may be found in anything not truly horizontal. Unless we end up with Dennis Kuciniches at every level, willing to quit instead of allow a corporation to damage their zone.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)what social movements have done to be succesful, work both INSIDE and OUTSIDE, as in in PARALLEL of the system.
And so far they have gotten the NRC to pay attention to San Onofre... I do not think that was quite a failure, doncha think?
In the meantime, the most radical of all Occupies, Oakland, cannot get more than fifty people to march for the unemployed, while here we got two marches in one week of 300 people.
I do not call that being a failure.
We have people truly and fully engaged and going into the year mark the core of the group is not smaller, rather it has grown a little. OTOH, Oakland, which had 30-40K in the streets for the port shut down, has been counter protested.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)for political position no matter their intention. You know what I meant.
I'm glad they are still going strong and I wish them all the best in, well, their other endeavours!
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)for a while they went to war internally and it looked like they were plainly done.
They figured what MLK figured out, for example... and they are working from multiple directions.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)It was birthed in response to problems no one else would address.
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)progressive order, Instead it ushered in a relentless decline into the most retrograde and reactionary period in American history - marginalizing the left and pushing the Democratic Party at least on economics and foreign policy way to the right of the pre-
Reagan Republican Party. Nothing good every comes out of the bad guys winning.
randome
(34,845 posts)The Tea Baggers are the cattle grazing on the lawn of the GOP. Rome has fallen!
kctim
(3,575 posts)Never have.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)America is about the only place not currently rising up in vast numbers against the corrupt.
kctim
(3,575 posts)that the vast majority of Americans do not agree with the opinions embraced by OWS. We are not "rising up" because most of us don't fall for the OWS propaganda. We do not live in fear and we do not dwell on what others have.
We are happy with our lives and, despite the wishes of some OWS simpletons, we are going to bust our asses to get President Obama re-elected.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Thanks for that clarification. It's good to know.
You are also not concerned about people getting thrown out of their homes.
Nor are you concerned about money IN POLITICS, like Citizens United... that is a-ok with you.
randome
(34,845 posts)It's axiomatic. The 'people' are not rising up because the 'people' don't see that things are as dire as OWS makes them out to be.
And yes, Nadin, most of us DO want changes to occur. And no matter how much change actually occurs, there will always be MORE that could be done. We know that. We are not stupid.
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)An almost meaningless statement: "the vast majority of Americans do not agree with the opinions embraced by OWS"
Pure Republican-type smoke-screen.
kctim
(3,575 posts)explaining why only a VERY VERY samll fraction of Americans show up to these "Occupy" shows.
And only facts please. Not BS excuses of some "media conspiracy" or "people just don't understand, they would support OWS if they were smart enough."
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)They have nothing to do with the content of the posts I was responding to.
You said my statement: "the vast majority of Americans do not agree with the opinions embraced by OWS"
was "meaningless" and "Pure Republican-type smoke-screen."
My statement would have to be false if either of those two things are true. So what proof do you have that the vast majority of Americans share the opinions of OWS and support them?
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)Logical fallacy.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)"We do not live in fear and we do not dwell on what others have.
We are happy with our lives..."
.................................
Perfect. That is the quintessential mindset of those who despise Occupy.
"Its a sin that somehow
Light is changing to shadow
And casting its shroud
Over all we have known
Unaware how the ranks have grown
Driven on by a heart of stone
We could find that we're all alone
In the dream of the proud"
Maybe you don't give a damn about what others have. Well, good for you. You got yours. You're happy with your life. YAY!
Just please, stop pissing all over those of us who really do give a shit about others, particularly those others who are suffering from injustices. Stop pissing all over us for endangering our life and health, and laying out our time and cash, for trying to make a better world.
Pissing on people that are making sincere sacrifices to try to make a better world.
That's some nasty shit right there.
Because you are unquestionably right; Occupy really does care about what others have. In fact, that's what Occupy is all abou/i]. We care about what others have.
The paragraph below is exactly how we care about what others have:
Do people have enough food? Do they have medical care? Do they have shelter? Do the have a clean, livable environment? Do they have protection from oppression? Do they have equal rights? Do they have opportunity? Do they have the possibility of obtaining an education? etc.
What can we do, how can we work together to bring about social and economic injustice and make sure all people have the possibility of having these things?
As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world can know that we are your allies.
As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known.
They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.
They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.
They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of ones skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.
They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.
They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless animals, and actively hide these practices.
They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.
They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.
They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers healthcare and pay.
They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.
They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.
They have sold our privacy as a commodity.
They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press.
They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.
They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.
They have donated large sums of money to politicians, who are responsible for regulating them.
They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.
They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save peoples lives or provide relief in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantial profit.
They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.
They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.
They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.
They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad.
They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.
They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts.*
To the people of the world,
We, the New York City General Assembly occupying Wall Street in Liberty Square, urge you to assert your power.
Exercise your right to peaceably assemble; occupy public space; create a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone.
To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of direct democracy, we offer support, documentation, and all of the resources at our disposal.
Join us and make your voices heard!
*These grievances are not all-inclusive.
On the turning away
From the pale and downtrodden
And the words they say
Which we wont understand
Don't accept that whats happening
Is just a case of others suffering
Or you'll find that you're joining in
The turning away
Its a sin that somehow
Light is changing to shadow
And casting its shroud
Over all we have known
Unaware how the ranks have grown
Driven on by a heart of stone
We could find that were all alone
In the dream of the proud
On the wings of the night
As the daytime is stirring
Where the speechless unite
In a silent accord
Using words you will find are strange
And mesmerized as they light the flame
Feel the new wind of change
On the wings of the night
No more turning away
From the weak and the weary
No more turning away
From the coldness inside
Just a world that we all must share
Its not enough just to stand and stare
Is it only a dream that there'll be
No more turning away
kctim
(3,575 posts)that OWS does not have the support it thinks it has. It does not have the support it needs in order to be taken seriously.
I don't "despise" OWS at all, they just don't represent the views and beliefs of myself or the vast majority of Americans, so we don't support them. Our lack of support for the views, beliefs and opinions of OWS in no way means we do not care about our fellow Americans.
Re: "...trying to make a better world" comment.
This is the problem with all these little groups like OWS, Tea Parties, Greens etc... They wrongly believe it is they, and only they, who "give a shit about others" and that they, and only they, can "make a better world." You condemn everybody who dares not agree with your OPINION and you try to dismiss those differing opinions with emotional rants rather than with facts.
To that I say BS. People will stop "pissing all over" your opinions when you stop pissing all over their intelligence.
"The paragraph below is exactly how we care about what others have:"
YES, the majority of Americans have enough food, medical care, shelter, a clean livable environment, protection from oppression, equal rights, opportunity etc... Those are ALL fact. Changing the definition of those things to match your opinion does not change that.
"What can we do, how can we work together to bring about social and economic injustice and make sure all people have the possibility of having these things?"
Finally, an honest question.
First, we must acknowledge the fact that one group, or one side of the aisle, does not get to define everything and that differing opinions do not equal "hate."
Second, we must acknowledge the fact that the part does not define the whole. Of course there is ALWAYS room for improvement, but the majority of Americans are doing ok for the most part. There is no need or support to drastically change our economy or our government.
Third, and most important, we must acknowledge the fact that representing all people means representing ALL people, not just those who agree with us. We are NOT and NEVER have been a direct democracy.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Thank the media, for telling the vast majority of Americans that they are all druggies and have no message, because buddy... that is on the top of the list. In polling you know YOU are wrong. We know the vast majority of Americans, from ALL political persuasions, ARE concerned about Citizens United.
We know for a fact, again from polling, that the vast majority of Americans IS concerned about foreclosures and the banksters.
Don't piss on me, and tell me it's raining.
YOU, KCTIM do not agree, that we know.
And that is fine... YOU are not the majority, from polling, trust me on this one.
kctim
(3,575 posts)Thank the media? Would that be the right-wing media progressives fear or the left-wing media conservatives fear? The "media" excuse is nothing but a weak attempt to justify to oneself why others disagree with them.
Fact is, Americans know the OWS message and the dwindling numbers prove Americans do not support their opinions or tactics.
What we know about Citizens United, foreclosures and banks from "polling," is that Americans are concerned about them. That in no way means Americans believe or support the OWS opinions on it or the OWS solutions to it. If it did, they would be in the streets with OWS. They are not.
Like almost everybody else, I am a little leery of CU and I want the issue with ILLEGAL foreclosures to be addressed. That does not mean I believe in some cock-eyed evil corporation take over of the world conspiracy or that I want all debt to be forgiven.
So, from "polling," I AM with the majority.
FWIW: Polls are hardly factual and reading into them, or omitting from them, in order to prove ones point, is pointless.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)In a way, you did answer it.
Have a good day
Summer Hathaway
(2,770 posts)I have found that OWSers are becoming increasingly like Fundies. They believe that no one can find salvation without accepting OWS as their lord and savior.
It has quickly become a faith-based movement, in that adherents are expected to embrace whatever they are told without question. If an OWSer does something worthwhile, "He's with us." If an OWSer does something people find abhorrent, "He's NOT with us." There is no proof offered either way. You just have to believe whatever you are being told by those who claim to be in-the-know.
The other problem is the persecution complex. If you say you are indifferent to the Occupy movement, that means you don't care about your fellow citizens, bank fraud, mortgage fraud, etc.! If you say Occupy is irrelevant to you, that means you want them to fail! It always reminds me of people who say that wishing someone Happy Holidays equals the persecution of Christians. Same kind of disconnect and total lack of logic.
That's because their faith is the only true religion. You're either with them or against them - there is no middle ground. There is no acknowledgement that people can go about moving towards positive change unless they kiss the OWS ring.
To say that people who are not OWS adherents don't care about those who are victims of poverty, unemployment, home foreclosures, etc. is no different, IMHO, than saying that people who are non-Christians or atheists are incapable of moral behavior or concern for others.
It's their way or the highway. And amazingly enough, these are the same people who decry lock-stepping - unless it's their step you are supposed to follow without question, in which case it becomes, "Yeah, but this is different."
Sadly, it's not any different at all.
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)They are as fact-free and generically slanderous as your post, and their ulterior motive is as obvious as the OP.
I have no problem with criticism of OWS and maybe the moment is over, but this thread is full of nothing but transparent, baseless and pretty-well uninformed bashing.
randome
(34,845 posts)Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)it's one image from one person, who knows who, associated with one FACEBOOK page cherry-picked to bash a whole modern protest movement.
Summer Hathaway
(2,770 posts)What is the slander? Pointing out that those who do not kneel before the Great OWS are considered by them to be blasphemers, damned to the fires of hell for all eternity?
What is the 'ulterior motive'? Pointing out that Occupy has become a Fundie-style religion that brooks no dissent from anyone?
Fact-free? Where are your facts to refute anything I've said?
kctim set out his argument in well-reasoned, thoughtful responses. Your reply, on the other hand, is an emotional diatribe devoid of any facts whatsoever - other than the fact that you are easily pissed-off when someone pisses on your opinion.
Might I reiterate that I am not a member of any Fundie group - ergo, I do not accept what OWS tells me I HAVE TO BELIEVE simply on the basis that they said so.
If you care to have a reasoned discussion about this, I'm in. But if your only response is that my post is slanderous and based on some ulterior motive you can't articulate, it is obvious we have nothing further to discuss.
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)You haven't posted any facts at all.
Summer Hathaway
(2,770 posts)Neither have you.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Over a million American schoolchildren are homeless now. We have the second-highest child poverty rate of all the developed nations; only Romania is worse. Forty percent of our wealth has been looted. People who were comfortably middle class 15 years ago are living in cars on the street. Meanwhile, the corporations are sucking in record profits.
I dare you to run a Presidential campaign on the message that Americans are doing just fine. Talk about disconnection from reality.
warrprayer
(4,734 posts)on one branch of Occupy does not define the movement. FAIL
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)break up the Occupy Denver camp might have something to why the image showed up. I don't agree with it at all, but I understand it.
But you are messing up a good bashing post with your logic. Stop it. Anything that can anyway REMOTELY be seen as even sort of possibly casting bad on Barack Obama must be trashed completely through any means!
Kelley, a flooring contractor, said he isn't angry at Wall Street and thinks most of the protesters don't understand capitalism.
"If it wasn't for Wall Street, where would we be? ...," he said.
Summer Hathaway
(2,770 posts)How many 'branches' are there?
Which 'branch' represents the whole, and which doesn't?
Which 'branch' defines the movement?
How are people supposed to differentiate between the 'branch' that is representative of the movement, and the 'branch' which isn't?
The only answer to the above questions I've seen so far equate to: "If the opinions expressed by one 'branch' of OWS are not to your liking, simply find another 'branch' whose opinions you accept."
That kind of defeats the idea of one movement, solidarity, "we're all in this together" - does it not?
warrprayer
(4,734 posts)From Robert Greene The 48 Laws of Power.
"Law 48 Assume Formlessness
Page 419
Judgment
"By taking a shape, by having a visible plan, you open yourself to attack. Instead of taking a form for your enemy to grasp, keep yourself adaptable and on the move. Accept the fact that nothing is certain and no law is fixed. The best way to protect yourself is to be as fluid and formless as water; never bet on stability or lasting order. Everything changes." "
"Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the director of the opponent's fate. "
Sun Tzu
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/s/sun_tzu.html#XEDkP3YdxpaKbS6F.99
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)they are complete ignoramuses and not very intelligent.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)Disagreement with the OWS = support for the 1%.
Or so I've been told.
Summer Hathaway
(2,770 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)OWS was very badly treated by a lot of Democrats including Homeland Security. It's no wonder they are disillusioned. There is plenty of time for OWS activists to change their minds about voting and the election.
The fact remains that OWS did a wonderful service in bringing to public attention just how bad the 1% is and how horribly corrupt the relationship between our governments at various levels, local, state and federal thanks to the flood of money from Wall Street.
OWS is a part of the political dynamic. Most of them will vote no matter what a few of them say now.
zappaman
(20,605 posts)But it's not a political movement...it's a social movement.
randome
(34,845 posts)So Homeland Security is part of the Democratic party now?
Robb
(39,665 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)I had a friend who was very involved in that.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)for that appointment and for what Homeland Security does.
Inkfreak
(1,695 posts)No thanks.
n/t
The Midway Rebel
(2,191 posts)Misinformative at best.