General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsRemember the democratic party is not the end goal its a means to the end goal.
The democratic party is vehicle that we are using to get us to the desired destination. We have a set of ideals and policies that we stand for and use the party to come together in strength to accomplish these goals. We don't blindly follow the party because sometimes that will lead us incorrectly. We need to be true to the ideals we care about - let those be the guide and we won't fail. So if Bernie is a way of implementing the ideals - yes, I will support an "independent" to accomplish those ideals. Use the tools that are available to accomplish our goals the best we can.
Fresh_Start
(11,330 posts)because doing everything possible to weaken the democratic party is a road to continued success for the GOP and Putin
Loki Liesmith
(4,602 posts)Because in order to defend any gains we might make there needs to be a strong institution in place that supports those gains and outlives any one person
Bernie is an old man and lacks an institutional apparatus to carry on once he's gone. Supporting him (or other independents) at the expense of the Democratic Party is a long term strategic mistake.
Joe941
(2,848 posts)Aren't some of our ideals to not judge and attack based on age or gender?
Loki Liesmith
(4,602 posts)Acknowledging that 1) Bernie is old and 2) Bernie will die relatively soon is not ageism. It is a statistical fact.
An independent lacks a mechanism to carry on a legacy. Try and address that before you make another foolish charge in bad faith.
Joe941
(2,848 posts)decided not to hire a women because she is just gonna get pregnant and will leave or be gone for an extended time. Or not hire a older person because he/she is not going to stay long and leave for retirement? Those are facts and do happen.
Loki Liesmith
(4,602 posts)Who is older than Bernie. But she has the institutional support of the Democratic Party which will defend her achievements once she is gone.
Again, stop with the foolish arguments. You know full well that this applies to independents of *any age.* They are all mortal. Shaping an institution to outlast the candidate is more important than the candidate itself.
I don't anticipate engaging with you further as you've made two arguments in bad faith now.
Good day.
Joe941
(2,848 posts)delisen
(6,042 posts)with a following that is loosely organized and may not survive his departure.
Fresh_Start
(11,330 posts)because only with organization and significant numbers do we have the remotest possibility of winning battles against the lockstep well-financed GOP
leftofcool
(19,460 posts)That goal is to elect Democrats, not Independents, not 3rd party people etc...
Loki Liesmith
(4,602 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Demsrule86
(68,475 posts)delisen
(6,042 posts)I notice that another poster also uses the vehicle analogy.
Other people would see the Democratic Party as an association of like-minded people working towards a common goal.
Still others may see the Democratic Party as a home, a domicile, a meeting house - a place where people support and nourish each other in their political endeavors.
To me the vehicle analogy indicates a certain transience: I have a destination and will use this vehicle or mode of transport until it doesn't seem to be moving me along fast enough; I might tinker with it for awhile but at some point I'll find another vehicle to get me where I am going.
I see it an individualistic viewpoint: I have a destination and I will potentially use whatever vehicle gets me to my destination: I may be with the rest of you for a month, a year, a decade, or the rest of my life.
To relate to a political party as a association, home, or community (a place rather than a vehicle) is more a group viewpoint. People relate to others in the group on their political commonalities and a kind of consensus builds over time and the adjustments are ongoing.
I think people with this latter viewpoint are less likely to say-"I'll just find another home." (Especially in places where there are fewer options). they are also likely to say: We are not your tools.
Theses are two very different models of behavior or stances and I don't think that they are going to be easily reconciled. A certain level of tolerance may be achieved.