Having cities named after Columbus, along with a holiday honoring him, is a national disgrace.

[jcmaine72]

What exactly are we paying tribute to when we're honoring Columbus? It's a legacy irredeemably tainted by genocide, enslavement, land theft, sheer brutality on a global scale, racism and religious bigotry (among other things). We've thankfully taken down many Confederate flags and monuments, but the genesis of the Confederacy's cruel and barbaric slave culture is still honored and celebrated (albeit in fewer and fewer places each year...Thank goodness!). It's positively disgraceful, and should be a source of great national shame. We should have evolved past this, even with all the deplorable dead weight our oft times backward and lowbrow culture has to tow.

Therefore, every statue honoring Columbus must come down. Every city named after him must be renamed. Columbus Day must not be celebrated. After all, in light of what celebrating such a man represents at its core, doesn't simple, human decency demand it?

[jmg257]

1. Columbus did all that? How long was he here?

[jcmaine72]

5. So, those things are not his legacy? Can you please tell me what you think his legacy entails....

...especially for indigenous people and those of African descent?

[jmg257]

6. He supposedly 'discovered' America. Though that

Is up for debate.

The whole New Wirld thing seems pretty big.

[jcmaine72]

7. Really? He did? Was it lost?

So there weren't any other people here when he landed?

Remarkable the things our schools teach these days.

[jmg257]

8. Decades ago actually. Though I wasn't aware he enslave

And persecuted all those people. He must have been very busy, what with exploring and all.

[jcmaine72]

9. Here are some irrefutable facts for you about Columbus that you have obviously missed:

http://didyouknowfacts.com/columbus-slave-trade-xx-facts/

Of particular interest, number three:

Columbus brought the first slaves across the Atlantic.

Columbus brought several hundred native Arawak back to Spain from his second voyage.

Yes, Spain had already been trading in African slaves, but they weren’t making the journey across the Atlantic to do it.

And when you’re talking about the history of American slavery, that’s fairly important.

Columbus was setting up the infrastructure that would later become the Transatlantic slave-trade.

He was the Alexander Hamilton of American slavery.

Your welcome. Glad to be of service.

[jmg257]

10. Yes indeed - thanks.... very interesting!

[jcmaine72]

11. You're welcome!

[jmg257]

13. His son seems like a real dick too.

[Drahthaardogs]

46. The genocide thing makes that article ridiculous

Smallpox killed most of the indigenous population.

That's not genocide. Shame on the author for even stating that. We have real ethnic genocide occurring in the world today. It's not disease killing them.

[Hekate]

60. Smallpox, measles, a lot of stuff the indigenes had NO IMMUNITY TO. People from one sick village...

...would flee ahead, carrying fatal diseases with them. Europeans (sometimes) entered an empty land. Recommended reading: The Arrow of Disease.

The story is long and very, very complicated.

[mythology]

62. But outside of a few rather unsuccessful attempts at using smallpox blankets

the spread of disease wasn't an express goal. It was a function of lack of immunity and lack of knowledge about disease.

Also the native populations had already been in decline due to internal warfare that started before the Europeans (not that the presence of the Europeans didn't exacerbate that).

[Hekate]

69. Exactly. Human history is ... human. All the good, all the bad, all the beauty, all the horror.

Every culture.

[Drahthaardogs]

75. It is probably impossible to spread smallpox via a blanket

Fomite transmission of smallpox is difficult and evidence for it is circumstanceial.

The attempt to use the fomites as a weapon is attributed to the Brits during the French and Indian war, not Columbus

[LanternWaste]

92. If we allow our biases all relevant definitions, it seems 'discover' yet works,

If we allow our biases all relevant definitions, it seems 'discover' yet works and is a valid qualifier.

2. to notice or realize

I think Columbus did in fact, notice or realize parts of the north American continent.





Word Usage: remarkable indeed what schools teach... and what our biases deny in order to appear clever.

[question everything]

2. Unless you are native American, were it not for Columbus you would not be here

most of us would not be here. Many across the globe who escaped harsh life and persecution, still do, would have not look at these shores as a beacon of hope.

Just another P-C run amok.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

14. JFC, listen to yourself.

Columbus established this continent as a beacon of hope?

[jcmaine72]

20. It's staggers the mind the extent to which some will go to rationalize and even defend the

indefensible. It kinda reminds me of the old "Mussolini defense", where when all else fails, you remind his detractors that at least he made the trains run on time. That those same trains would someday be used to carry Jews & Gypsies to Nazi concentration in Eastern Europe is an inconvenient fact that always somehow ends dropped by the wayside.

[question everything]

25. No, it staggersthe mind to belittle the aspirations and the hope of so many generations

to, yes, belittle the "huddled masses yearning to breathe free.” .

As I first asked: unless you are native American, how did you end up on these shores?

[jcmaine72]

35. Weak sauce. Making Columbus the poster boy of the "huddled masses" when in reality...

...he was at the vanguard of conquest, genocide and slavery is about as disingenuous as it gets. Tell me, what "huddled masses" did Columbus champion? Have yo ever read translations of his journal and ship's logs? This man was no torchbearer for the downtrodden and oppressed of Europe. What his writings do reveal is a man obsessed by own greed and personal aggrandizement.

And I didn't know only Native Americans were permitted to speak out against their shabby treatment. How wonderful of you to handpick those who are permitted to speak out against the maltreatment of other human beings and who is not. You would have made a "good German" back in the 1930's & 40's. "Shush, dear, we're not Jews. It's not our place to say anything".

[question everything]

38. No, Columbus did not suggest the huddle masses and you know perfectly well

I find it pathetic to even explain to you. But once he found the path to these shores, many came after him, trickles, at first, and later including, yes the huddle masses.

So, how did you, or your forefathers came to these shore? Oh, I know, a sugar daddy sent your folks tickets and you all came over to find the gold on the roads.

You cannot be that obtuse to argue this point. But, then, perhaps, you are.

[jcmaine72]

49. You seemed obsessed with my ancestry, as if that somehow refutes the facts about Columbus

So only Native Americans are permitted to address this topic? In essence, that is what you are arguing here.

Good luck with that. Just be sure remember the next time an act of genocide occurs somewhere in the world and people express outrage to come back on DU and ask people where their ancestors came from, being especially careful to tell anyone who isn't directly related by ancestry to those victimized by the atrocity to mind their own business.

You have a good one.

[question everything]

71. So pathetic

Ever been tested in the topic of understanding what you read? Just read and then answer the question of what the author means?

Slowly: This is a country of immigrants. Did you know that? No? What were you doing during history lessons? Start here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States

Thus, when people don't like the person who first showed us the way, one has to ask how they, or their parents or grandparents knew about this place.

But, perhaps you are ashamed of your parents and grandparents. Is this the reason for your hostility?

That's OK. I've long found that individuals hide behind the anonymity of the internet to spout hateful and ignorant things.

I suppose it is better than fighting with co-workers - if you have job; fighting with spouse and children - if you have a family, or kicking the dog - poor creature.

[ExciteBike66]

77. Columbus was a slaver

So go read the below and educate yourself, mate.

http://www.nytimes.com/1989/11/04/opinion/l-slavery-and-colonialism-make-up-the-true-legacy-of-columbus-866089.html

[moriah]

90. And what the hell do those people have to do with Columbus?

Columbus "discovered" America the same way the people at work "discover" the stuff you left in the fridge for yourself. It might have been new and shiny to him, so shiny in fact he immediately had to write back to Their Catholic Majesties that the people would make great slaves (so he wasn't that big on breathing free).... but he wasn't even the first European to enter the "New World."

You may feel the poster was over-the-top in suggesting we rename a large city in Ohio.

But so is trying to suggest that calling colonialism out for the shitstorm it was to indigenous populations and urging people to not venerate an unscrupulous asshole is somehow insulting later generations of immigrants or that only people who are 100% indigenous have the right to bitch.

Fuck, if we AREN'T Native, we have a not just a right to bitch, but a duty to use our privilege and louder voice to call it out, IMHO!

[question everything]

23. He did not. But next waves of immigrants did

Each one of us can look at how we, or our forefathers arrived on these shores and for what reason.

How, exactly, would they know about it? How would they have, yes, hope, that there was something beyond their misery and persecution where they were living?

[pangaia]

54. I don't know where to begin..

OK,, what about. foremothers?

'Arrived on these shores'... I would say try to think of your own phrases..

He didn't discover anything.
Columbus was lost. he 'went the wrong way' and when he hit land, well, well, somebody was already there. Somebody ELSE "discovered it." But too many 'white people' seem to think they are the center of the world. History is white history. everything else is... what ?? "ethnic!"

Maybe to the 'ethnics," We are the ethnics.
Actually I've always wanted to be an ethnic, but I'm not.. Soo.. I married one , a Chinese woman. Fortunately her parents did not consider me a too weird foreigner...

And if he hadn't gotten lost and hit some islands by mistake, somebody later from Spain or Portugal or England or france or Italy or Norway,,,.. would have... oh......wait... ..

[pangaia]

50. My reaction as well, "beacon of...hope?"

No where did I read that phrase?

[Adrahil]

53. No offense, but BS.

European contact with the Americas was inevitable. And Columbus was fucking scumbag.

[flvegan]

3. Randy Marsh, is that you?

[Agschmid]

4. No.

[doc03]

12. We will not change the name of our capitol city nt

[jcmaine72]

15. Of course not. We wouldn't want anyone to think we'd ever do anything as declasse as not honor the..

...legacy of a documented slaver, land thief, and initiator (intentional or not) of probably the most prolific genocide in recorded history, right?

[sharedvalues]

30. Did you know Russia wants to divide us?

They want to get Democrats arguing amongst ourselves. And Americans arguing amongst ourselves.

[jcmaine72]

37. Did you know the price of chopped chicken liver in Flatbush is $14.95 per pound?

So, because Russia is trying to divide us, we should all remain united in ignorance?

Wonderful. That essentially explains why we're in the pickle we're in as a party.

[sharedvalues]

41. Russia wants infighting in America

Replies above have covered the reason why attacking Columbus and Amerigo Vespucci are both quite different from Confederate statues.

[Hekate]

56. I think you put your finger on it. Watch this one go down swinging...

...and come back for another purity test.

[oberliner]

16. No it's not

First of all, the holiday is about celebrating Italian-American heritage. Secondly, "every city named after him must be renamed" is pointless.

[JoeStuckInOH]

17. Was Amerigo Vespucci innocent of similar atorcities? No. And our COUNTRY is named after him.

Not sure what we should do about that.
Best not to dwell on or feel guilty about things that literally happened a HALF OF A MILLENIUM ago.

Geez.

[whistler162]

19. Should rename it Erikssonia

Scandinavians We Came, We Saw, We Left.

[sharedvalues]

31. Yup the Vikings were paragons of good virtue too

[Hekate]

63. Turtle Island

[Duppers]

88. Not dwell on?

Then a simple and easy name change for the holiday would help.

We're honoring this man? Why?

From a DU post today:

What Dick Gregory said about Columbus:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029689904

[sarah FAILIN]

18. Should we all just slit our wrists and be done with it?

I am tired of some attitudes and people that think we need to apologize to everyone on earth to be honest. I was also under the impression that Columbus never set foot HERE.

[jcmaine72]

22. No, but you could consider a viable alternative to such a ridiculously asinine overreaction:

Simple acknowledgement of historical facts, no matter how unpleasant they are, sensitivity to those facts, followed by carefully planned action to ameliorate such unpleasantness.

Now isn't that a much nicer. measured, and thoughtful alternative to slitting one's wrists and apologetically dropping to one's knees?

[sarah FAILIN]

59. I don't care about this cause of the day.

I have bigger fish to fry and none of them are anything related to Columbus.

[question everything]

27. Here! Here!

Many here think that world history started with them

The history of the world is full of wars, of atrocities, of torture, of misery. This is how it was done, and this is what eventually what progress to bring us here, to appreciate our liberty to even contemplate changing everything.

[sharedvalues]

33. That's what Russia wants with their info campaigns

Their aim is to use disinformation to divide America and to get average Americans to give up on politics and the country.

So yes that's what Russia wants - for you to give up. Don't do it . Resist more!

[jcmaine72]

39. Exactly! Because acknowledging past atrocities and showing any degree of sensitivity towards the

Native American genocide and the African slave trade is a Russian plot! Sheer and utter genius.

Thanks for being on the right side of the law. I shutter to think what havoc such powers of deduction could cause were they used with criminal intent.

[sharedvalues]

43. Russian disinformation plays both sides

One of their goals is to get liberals worked up and u focused on today's issues - I include black lives matter and police violence as issues we should be focusing on.

[edhopper]

21. Unlike others.

I agree with you.
For Italian Americans it would be better to find an Italian more worthy of the honor. Columbus certainly isn't.

It was Washington Irving that created the myth of Columbius.

[jcmaine72]

24. Thank you!

And as someone of Italian descent myself, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

[Drahthaardogs]

42. It should just be made Italian American Day

And be done

[WillowTree]

26. Seems like just about everythng is 'a national disgrace' for one reason or other these days.

It gets tiresome after awhile.

[sharedvalues]

28. Divide divide divisiveness

This divisiveness mirrors the Russian agenda in the US. Did you know they supported both sides of #Blacklivesmatter to divide America?

[jcmaine72]

61. Divisive to whom?

I don't know a single progressive, liberal or Democrat who doesn't find Columbus' legacy vis-a-vis Native Americans or African Americans to be anything less than abhorrent.

If this divides (or more appropriately, differentiates) me from the deplorables, which it does, I'm ultra fine with that. They readily embrace white supremacy, like their beloved president, and I will never stand in solidarity with that.

If you believe that somehow constitutes a Russian plot against America I pity you.

[Hekate]

64. So self righteous

[jcmaine72]

67. So vacuous.

Thanks for contributing nothing productive to the discussion.

[sharedvalues]

85. Back to Russia: see the Anti-Putin protests?

Link to tweet

Seems like Putin is weak and that's why he's lashing out at the west.


We just need to resist division, focus on the attacks on our democracy and move forward.

Did you ever respond about Amerigo Vespucci?

[sharedvalues]

84. Russians want us to focus on other issues than Trump and GOP

That's what their internet trolls are trying to do - distract us, divide us.

If you haven't seen this, check out the online dashboard tracking Russian troll activity.



http://dashboard.securingdemocracy.org

It's made by Clint Watts.

Link to tweet

Who has been tracking Putin protests

Link to tweet

[brooklynite]

29. Since this is a political blog, let me make a political observation...

...this should NOT be an issue in the next election. This is NOT an issue for the average voter (neither are confederate statues) and the people for whom this is an issue shouldn't need Democrats to publicly advocate it to vote for them.

[sharedvalues]

44. It IS the kind of issue you'd amplify

If you wanted to divide Democrats. Not saying that's what the OP is doing, but perhaps other news sites are.

[left-of-center2012]

32. "sheer brutality on a global scale"

Hell, he didn't even know he'd discovered the western hemisphere.
He thought he was in India (or at least the Spice Islands)

I think you're giving him too much credit (or discredit?)

[sharedvalues]

34. Russia wants Americans divided

For us to argue.

[Spider Jerusalem]

36. lol

I find it kind of amusing that you'd expect anything different in a country built on white supremacy, slavery and genocide, where the constitution defined black slaves as three-fifths of a person, where the Supreme Court ruled that black people were not citizens, where George Custer was considered a hero and martyr for nearly a century. Of course cities were named after Columbus.

[sharedvalues]

45. We can fix that today. Democrats will bring the country together

If we win in 2018 we can improve the country.
That will take grassroots work. Let's go out and do it!

[Spider Jerusalem]

58. That'll happen in about 50 years or so when white people are a minority

don't expect anything much before then though.

[Drahthaardogs]

40. Columbus Day is the day dedicated to Italian Americans

It was made a national holiday as an apology for the way we were treated in this country.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2015/10/11/why-is-columbus-day-still-a-u-s-federal-holiday/?utm_term=.781160e0094f

[tymorial]

48. I am so sick and tired of presentism. Nt

[Hekate]

52. Like the Pledge and the Anthem, Columbus Day came much much later than 1776...

Both the Pledge of Allegiance and Columbus Day had a lot to do with the drive of America to assimilate millions of foreigners all at once. Like the Italians. Capiche? That's how we used to do it.

[tenderfoot]

55. troll harder

eom

[stevenleser]

57. I have a lot of conflicting thoughts...

First off, my dad is from Germany and a holocaust survivor. Mom was from Panama and was part native/aborigine.

The aboriginal perspective, and the perspective of a son of a genocide survivor is obviously that Columbus has to go.

However, I will note that in Panama, where it is said Columbus once landed (at least in nearby Islands on the Atlantic side) Columbus is still well thought and celebrated. Panama's 2nd largest city is named Colon, which is his name in Spanish. https://www.thoughtco.com/how-did-colon-become-columbus-3079508

It's also true that in the 15th century, the kind of atrocities that Columbus is accused of perpetrating were actually minor compared to common practice all over the globe. Someone up-thread said we were engaging in "presentism". I wonder if that isn't true. One of the things that made the Nazi genocide so horrible, besides the obvious, was that in the 20th century we thought we had all moved beyond that kind of evil, beyond mistreating fellow human beings thusly.

There is no such thought about the 15th century. The Spanish Inquisition had just begun 14 years before Columbus sailed the ocean blue in 1492. The Jews were expelled from Spain the same year (1492).

Barbara Tuchman wrote a book called "A Distant Mirror: The Calamitous Fourteenth Century (1978)" where she wrote:

The tortures and punishments of civil justice customarily cut off hands and ears, racked, burned, flayed, and pulled apart people's bodies. In everyday life, passers-by saw some criminal flogged with a knotted rope or chained upright in an iron collar. They passed corpses hanging on the gibbet and decapitated heads and quartered bodies impaled on stakes on the city walls.

So that's the century before Columbus sailed.

As late as 1789 the punishment for a woman killing her husband in England was to be burned alive. In the 15th century in England, there were 280 rape cases with zero convictions. You could essentially rape with impunity in England at the time Columbus sailed for the new world.

In short, this was the Medieval period and there is a reason that accusing a person or country of Medieval-ism has a negative connotation. That being said, I am still not sure where I come down on this issue.

[Hekate]

68. Thanks, stevenleser. As I said upthread, history is complicated...

But I do think the OP is intentionally divisive, and these days, I mistrust that greatly.

[sharedvalues]

86. Yes and yes.

Thanks!

[Sgent]

76. Columbus' discovery

of Jamaica actually proved very fortuitous for the Jews. There were a huge number of Jewish immigrants who fled there to escape the Inquisition.

[phleshdef]

65. I live in Columbus, Ohio

I know Christopher Columbus was indeed a piece of shit. But if they don't change the name my city I'm not gonna be upset about it.

I do think that we should replace Columbus Day with Indigenous Peoples day. And I don't think that he should be celebrated at all.

But just because we have geographical areas that are named after him and have been for ages then we should not force people to change the name of the place they have called home for their entire lives.

No one in Columbus, Ohio gives to fucking shit's about Christopher Columbus. I will guarantee you that. There are plenty of places where cities take the name of Jefferson who owned slaves. I could go way down that rabbit hole. But I think you get my point.

[Duppers]

72. Hear hear!

I too want the name of the holiday changed, so badly that I've been ranting about it here lately...

Native Americans first discovered these American continents 12,000 yrs ago. These people weren't just some CRITTERS living here!!
So, what's so hard and controversial about giving credit where credit is due???

HOWEVER, it is indeed over the top/ too much trouble the change names of cities, especially when people don't even associate the name of the city with the name of that person.

[DonCoquixote]

70. There can be any number of italians we coudl replace him with

or just call it "immigrant day" which would remind a lot of the Bill O Reilly and Sean hannitys of the world that their forefathers were considered the enemy too by the "white americans." A perfect movie for that day, the under rated Scorcese masterpiece "Gangs of New York."

[Raine]

73. Everything seems to be a "national disgrace" anymore

something to keep youself in a permanent state of agitation about ... I'll pass.

[Duppers]

89. Kinda like the Civil War monuments, uh?

[Duppers]

74. Disagree only with the extent to which you carry this.

Very much AGREE with the cause! (See post "Hear, hear" above.)

I suppose all the naysayers on this thread would like to keep the Civil War monuments up everywhere? Using their logic...



Thanks for the thread. You've unknowingly helped end my debate with myself about putting someone on ignore.

[AngryAmish]

78. We have a big city literally named after a dictator.

[beachbum bob]

79. many more importants things to be concerned with these days....

[GulfCoast66]

80. This issue is way down on my to do list

In fact, I doubt I ever get to it.

And it is not something the Democratic Party should worry about either.

Pushing this agenda item will just divide democrats and drive away voters.

You would not want that to happen, now would you?

Have a nice day.

[Renew Deal]

81. Interesting point comrade

[joeybee12]

82. He was an explorer who was a product of his times

The extent to which you accuse him is laughable and so are your facta. And I'm not playing. You don't want to discuss this.you just want to yell everyone how right you are.

[Vinnie From Indy]

83. The Russians are everywhere...

Das Vadanya comrade!

[lunasun]

87. Seems like the biggest defense to your OP is to call you a Russian and the best argument is to

say they are too old to evolve ethically.

[guillaumeb]

91. There is Columbus "the myth" and there is Columbus "the reality".

Many Americans prefer the myth to the reality. The myth makes for better novels and movies.