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Wed Oct 25, 2017, 04:27 PM

Met my first Trump voter the other night.

Late twenties, ex-military, ex-MP. Half African-American, half Italian. Works at the facility across the street. We were both leaving late, so I introduced myself in the parking lot. I made a political comment that drew the admission from him that he had voted for Donald Trump. This was difficult for me to hear -- but I kept my temper in check and sought out an actual discussion.

'Why?', of course, was my first question. The young man tried to explain that he gets his news from 'all over', that he had examined both candidates, and chose Trump. Trump has disappointed him, however, and he wishes he could take it back.

I wanted to know more. For an hour we stood in that dark parking lot talking; it only got heated once, and I backed off. Clearly he was feeling guilt about it. 'Why would you vote for such a man?'

1) Because Hillary was going to spend all sorts of money on prisons, he had read. 'Replacing private prisons, you mean?' He didn't know what that was. Horrified when I explained it.

2) Because Barack Obama was a tool of the 'white elitists'. 'Why would you say that?' 'They'll never let a black man be president for real', he answered, as if that was an absolute fact. Evidence? 'He legalized gay marriage.'

WTF? 'Are you a homophobe?' 'No, my brother is gay.' 'So you support gay marriage, but because Obama legalized it, he's a tool of white elitists?'

Yep.

Aaaaand that was about it. A lot of feeling and mushy logic, no facts. But now he feels stupid because Donald isn't doing anything like what he promised.

I let him know how I felt about his falling for and enabling a Russian sneak attack on our nation, and how the ever-increasing body count will be kinda on his karmic record.

'If Mueller indicts him, I'll have to spend the rest of my life repairing the damage I've done.'

Not your typical Trumpling. Still --

'Have you ever heard of Citizens United?'

No. And he's horrified when I explain it. 'Republicans did that? That should be totally illegal!'

Yep.

You know, it was good that I kept the rage in check. But it was dismaying for me to realize just how f%#@ing stupid people can be. Nice guy, young fellow with a future, may have condemned his nation to the flames because he could not think critically.

The conversation ended well. Maybe I made an impact. Hope so.

65 replies, 8725 views

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Reply Met my first Trump voter the other night. (Original post)
byronius Oct 2017 OP
greymattermom Oct 2017 #1
Butterflylady Oct 2017 #2
The Mouth Oct 2017 #6
calimary Oct 2017 #20
The Mouth Oct 2017 #26
Dark n Stormy Knight Oct 2017 #33
susanna Oct 2017 #40
Dark n Stormy Knight Oct 2017 #41
susanna Oct 2017 #63
Pacifist Patriot Oct 2017 #44
susanna Oct 2017 #64
maddiemom Oct 2017 #52
Dark n Stormy Knight Oct 2017 #58
dubyadiprecession Oct 2017 #3
gratuitous Oct 2017 #4
wryter2000 Oct 2017 #5
annabanana Oct 2017 #7
KY_EnviroGuy Oct 2017 #8
RedSpartan Oct 2017 #9
SammyWinstonJack Oct 2017 #10
workinclasszero Oct 2017 #11
Juliusseizure Oct 2017 #46
LiberalLovinLug Oct 2017 #56
lancelyons Oct 2017 #12
Beartracks Oct 2017 #28
PoindexterOglethorpe Oct 2017 #13
Turbineguy Oct 2017 #23
iamateacher Oct 2017 #14
zentrum Oct 2017 #15
Xolodno Oct 2017 #16
iamateacher Oct 2017 #30
calimary Oct 2017 #34
uponit7771 Oct 2017 #37
Pacifist Patriot Oct 2017 #45
maddiemom Oct 2017 #60
C Moon Oct 2017 #17
bdamomma Oct 2017 #18
NewJeffCT Oct 2017 #19
Honeycombe8 Oct 2017 #21
not fooled Oct 2017 #50
Honeycombe8 Oct 2017 #59
Roland99 Oct 2017 #22
B2G Oct 2017 #24
ChubbyStar Oct 2017 #29
N_E_1 for Tennis Oct 2017 #54
ChubbyStar Oct 2017 #62
Kablooie Oct 2017 #25
LonePirate Oct 2017 #27
SharonClark Oct 2017 #38
TheBlackAdder Oct 2017 #31
Moral Compass Oct 2017 #32
not fooled Oct 2017 #61
peggysue2 Oct 2017 #35
D_Master81 Oct 2017 #36
byronius Oct 2017 #39
DownriverDem Oct 2017 #48
VOX Oct 2017 #42
HAB911 Oct 2017 #43
DownriverDem Oct 2017 #47
JHan Oct 2017 #49
brush Oct 2017 #51
relayerbob Oct 2017 #53
stopbush Oct 2017 #55
byronius Oct 2017 #57
struggle4progress Oct 2017 #65

Response to byronius (Original post)

Wed Oct 25, 2017, 04:34 PM

1. Your conclusion is so important

Critical thinking is critical, and there's a controversy about whether it can be taught or not. Certainly, it can be improved. You have made a start at improving his critical thinking skills.

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Response to greymattermom (Reply #1)

Wed Oct 25, 2017, 05:02 PM

2. I agree

Critical thinking is what it's all about. For some reason republicans just do not have that skill. Personally, I think its just laziness.

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Response to greymattermom (Reply #1)

Wed Oct 25, 2017, 05:18 PM

6. Which is why they gut education at every opportunity EOM

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Response to The Mouth (Reply #6)

Wed Oct 25, 2017, 07:02 PM

20. Welcome to DU, The Mouth!

You made me think of a quote that grabbed me during the bush/cheney years. Attributed to kkkarl rove. "Too much education is not necessarily a good thing."

I've seen studies which indicated that the more educated a person is, the more likely he or she is to gravitate toward the liberal point of view.

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Response to calimary (Reply #20)

Wed Oct 25, 2017, 07:28 PM

26. Thanks

That would make a lot of sense; journalists tend to be better educated than average, being better educated than average correlates with being liberal, therefore no real surprise that most journalists are liberal. Always a risk of getting causation and correlation mixed up, but......

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Response to greymattermom (Reply #1)

Wed Oct 25, 2017, 08:57 PM

33. I am sure that critical thinking skills can be taught. I've done it.

In very rare cases the mental capacity is simply not there, but generally almost everyone can learn to think critically. But, the fact that a skill is learned doesn't mean it will be used.

What basically amounts to brainwashing has been conducted on a major scale in this country. Many people are so sure that, basically, liberals are evil, that they will not use any skills that prove otherwise. Look at the hard-core Trump base. They are having to work extremely hard to deny all that is clearly true about Trump's depravity and incompetence. They are frantically fighting off the truth.

I have often wondered how people with such poor ability to reason even get by in their daily lives. How they hold a job or keep themselves safe. But they do. They have critical thinking and reasoning skills. They simply choose not to use those skills where political ideology is involved.

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Response to Dark n Stormy Knight (Reply #33)

Thu Oct 26, 2017, 03:29 AM

40. I am a tutor at a community college.

A good portion of my job is trying to assist people who have never thought critically to entertain the very idea that they can. (If anyone mocks CC students, you're dead to me. Thanks in advance.)

I suspect I have about a 50/50 success rate, because the brainwashing is fierce out there, and I won't lie about that. Some are pretty far gone, but I never give up hope.

However...how does it sound when I get them to think?

By asking the student question upon question upon question and NEVER, ever giving them an answer. NEVER. I tell them to find it for me, and let me know. "Use your textbook, or notes, or Google, for now," I say. Often, this is enough to get them questioning what they have been told.

"What is really being asked?" I say. "Break the problem or situation down into its components, and search on those components." I say. "When you have a good idea of the arguments being presented, bring them all together and tell me what YOU think," I say.

5/10 students are like: "I never knew I could do this kind of research myself."

BINGO.

Note: I never ask that they agree with me, and don't care if they do. I ask only that they begin to think for themselves.

Oddly or not, most are quite amazed to be given that permission. Think about that what you will.

on edit: I worded some things poorly and fixed them...just trying to share my experience.



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Response to susanna (Reply #40)

Thu Oct 26, 2017, 03:53 AM

41. Keep up the good work.

It's our only hope.

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Response to Dark n Stormy Knight (Reply #41)

Sun Oct 29, 2017, 12:19 AM

63. Thank you.

It is meaningful to me and I plan on doing it as long as I can.

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Response to susanna (Reply #40)

Thu Oct 26, 2017, 09:39 AM

44. I love you!

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Response to Pacifist Patriot (Reply #44)

Sun Oct 29, 2017, 12:20 AM

64. Thank you!

I love you too

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Response to Dark n Stormy Knight (Reply #33)

Thu Oct 26, 2017, 12:45 PM

52. I've taught it as well, and agree that it's vitally important.

Many parents who are very conservative and consider themselves "Christian," think that questioning their beliefs is downright evil, and can be very vocal about it. That is a major problem in education on the public school level: feeling that your child is being "brainwashed" if they learn to question, when just the opposite is true.

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Response to maddiemom (Reply #52)

Thu Oct 26, 2017, 06:36 PM

58. I know just what you mean. I got to where I wanted to ask those parents why they sent their kids

to school at all. Apparently they already know everything you want them to know. Of course, they would call it brainwashing. Must demonize critical examination of beliefs that deep down you know are on shaky ground if you think questioning can destroy them.

But, I have to say, it wasn't just the so-called Christians who were rejecting critical thinking & reasoning. At least where I taught for nearly 20 years, there were some who just found it too difficult. Not that I believe it was in fact beyond their ability. It was just an lousy attitude.

Two stories to illustrate:

1. At a parent teacher conference I was saying how little Johnny Doe seemed reluctant to participate in class , though he was improving. The father said, "Look, I hated school, my father before me hated school, and his father before him hated it, and so on down the line. So, you can be damn sure my son is going to hate school!" He wouldn't have it any other way.

2. For over the Thanksgiving break one year I gave a homework assignment (I know, tyrant!) and suggested the kids get a relative to work the word problem with them. When the kid came back to class after the long weekend he handed me a note that said something to the effect of, "How dare you give little Jane such a hard problem. We had everyone in the family working on it and nobody could figure it out! You expect too much of these kids!"

I can't remember if it was close enough to my burning out entirely for me to have sent a note back saying this, but I had given that same problem in class the previous year and a majority of my 3rd grade students, working in small groups, figured out the answer within the 45 minute class.




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Response to byronius (Original post)

Wed Oct 25, 2017, 05:02 PM

3. You can sell snake oil to trump voters, because they are so naive.

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Response to byronius (Original post)

Wed Oct 25, 2017, 05:08 PM

4. As far as you can, stay in contact, keep adding facts

You will rarely get the Perry Mason dramatic scene where the witness breaks down on the stand (and by "rarely" I mean "never" ) and confesses to the crime. But listen to what they have to say, add information where possible, and let the person's brain do the heavy lifting.

byronius may never know the fruition of the seeds planted the other night. But if the two cross paths again, there may be a pleasant surprise from the fellow across the street.

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Response to byronius (Original post)

Wed Oct 25, 2017, 05:16 PM

5. I only know one Trump voter

AA woman. Her only reason is she's from Arkansas and hates the Clintons. Such logic.

There was another AA woman at the gym who expressed hatred for the Clintons. I pretty much sat back (in the sauna) and let the other AA people in there talk to her. She was ill-informed. "They talk about Trump's tax returns. We haven't seen Clinton's, either." Chorus in response: "Yes we have. All of them."

I don't know who the woman ended up voting for.

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Response to byronius (Original post)

Wed Oct 25, 2017, 05:26 PM

7. 'Republicans did that? That should be totally illegal!'

Maybe now this guy will START actually paying attention. . .

(Hope springs eternal . . . . )

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Response to byronius (Original post)

Wed Oct 25, 2017, 05:31 PM

8. Good job!

I try to remember we're the counter-weight of 40 or so years of right wing propaganda from their think tanks, cable TV and talk radio. So, I think it's so massive in scope, we can only counter one or two points at a time, just as you did.

The positive of all this may be that there's a sector of people who voted Republican that are recent "converts" (not totally brain-washed) that can be brought back into sensibility. Enough of those guys could easily flip an election our way.

The fellow you talked to might just go home and do some research on what you discussed and be on our side next time!

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Response to byronius (Original post)

Wed Oct 25, 2017, 05:34 PM

9. There's only two types of Republicans: the rich and the stupid.

My guess is this guy doesn't drive a Mercedes. Guess that narrows it down.

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Response to RedSpartan (Reply #9)

Wed Oct 25, 2017, 05:45 PM

10. +1000000.

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Response to RedSpartan (Reply #9)

Wed Oct 25, 2017, 05:49 PM

11. Yep

 

Many more stupid than rich.

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Response to RedSpartan (Reply #9)

Thu Oct 26, 2017, 10:45 AM

46. Don't forget the racist/sexist

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Response to RedSpartan (Reply #9)

Thu Oct 26, 2017, 03:43 PM

56. Well there is the rich AND stupid

which Donald J Trump is at the head of the pack.

Other notables,
Ted Nugent
Kid Rock
Victoria Jackson

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Response to byronius (Original post)

Wed Oct 25, 2017, 05:50 PM

12. Its like that across the country. Most of them dont know or have been mislead by Fox.

 

I have it even worse. My father, sisters, uncle, etc are all hard fox news living in the country and believe everything fox says. Just like all republicans he hates Hillary and Bill and Obama and Pelosi, etc, etc. The same cookie cutter responses. At least your guy was open to a different understanding. Most on the right are hard programmed and think anything you tell them is fake like the "msm" media.

A year ago my father said there was going to be another civil war. I was shocked and could not believe that.

Now as we get further down the road, I am wondering if he was not far off. There is a huge divide amongst americans. One side has their alternate facts they believe are the truth.... the democrats have their side they believe closer to the truth.

Not sure where this is going to end but I believe the truth will prevail in the end.

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Response to lancelyons (Reply #12)

Wed Oct 25, 2017, 07:31 PM

28. Yes, many gave been conned and mislead...

... yet they're not stupid people. More like... brainwashed.

=======

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Response to byronius (Original post)

Wed Oct 25, 2017, 05:53 PM

13. Too bad you didn't ask him to tell more of the "all over"

that he gets his news from.

I'm going to guess Fox news, what people post on FB, and maybe the odd conversation. I'd be willing to bet he never listens to any of the other networks: NBC, CBS, ABC, MSNBC, CNN. And definitely nothing from NPR, which for all its flaws has some decent shows worth listening to. He's probably unaware of the BBC or Amy Goodman's Democracy Now! and I doubt he reads the local newspaper. If he reads any books he only reads three or four a year, and they'll be some sort of escapist fiction (which I'm not criticizing because I read my share of that kind). In short, his notion of getting his news from all over is probably a lot more limited than he realizes. Especially if he's never heard of Citizens United and had no clue that so many of our prisons are privately run.

I hope that this young man does go on to try to educate himself better.

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Response to PoindexterOglethorpe (Reply #13)

Wed Oct 25, 2017, 07:22 PM

23. The "all over" is RW code for

"Fox News and I use the up and down arrows on the remote!"

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Response to byronius (Original post)

Wed Oct 25, 2017, 06:10 PM

14. Good work.

Thank you.

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Response to byronius (Original post)

Wed Oct 25, 2017, 06:27 PM

15. You did good. Thnx.

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Response to byronius (Original post)

Wed Oct 25, 2017, 06:30 PM

16. Note the sentence..."I get my news from all over".

...that's code for questionable web-sites. Which bill themselves as questionable because they tell you what the "lame-stream" media won't tell you.

Yes...they don't tell you that because its bunk, hasn't been vetted or can't be vetted. I even see it happen here on DU. Every once in awhile they get it right and blow their horn and say "see! you read it here first!".

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Response to Xolodno (Reply #16)

Wed Oct 25, 2017, 08:10 PM

30. That is what my relative tells me

"I get my information from all over. " Except it appears it is Faux News and Rush. I wondered what that meant since she kept repeating it.

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Response to Xolodno (Reply #16)

Wed Oct 25, 2017, 10:16 PM

34. EXCELLENT point.

"All over" like what? Cable news? The old-time "Big Three" (ABC, CBS, NBC)? Breitbart and Drudge? Pox Noise? Alex Jones?

The OP strongly suggests that quite a few voters who fell for trump have only a surface skimming of "news" input. Like what? Remember when Katie Couric nailed Sarah Palin on that? (Paraphrasing here) "What kinds of newspapers and magazines do you read?" And remember how Palin attempted to glide through that question by saying she read a lot of them. But when Couric pressed her with "like what?", she couldn't name a single one. New York Times? Washington Post? Time magazine? Vogue magazine? MAD magazine? How 'bout ANY of the Alaska papers, since after all, she was, at the time. Alaska's sitting governor? I merely googled:

Daily newspapers (currently published)
Alaska Daily News – King Salmon.
Alaska Dispatch News – Anchorage.
Daily Sitka Sentinel – Sitka.
Fairbanks Daily News-Miner – Fairbanks.
Juneau Empire – Juneau.
Ketchikan Daily News – Ketchikan.
Kodiak Daily Mirror – Kodiak.
Peninsula Clarion – Kenai.

NOTHING. She had NOTHING. Which strongly suggests that she didn't read anything. Anybody else would at least come up with SOMETHING. Or a name of some anchor person, or some identifying detail.

Sounds like the fellow in the OP who says "I get my news from all over" probably means he gets his "news" from the Morning Zoo show on the radio while driving to work, or from what he hears through the rumor mill via the neighbors over the back fence or at the local watering hole or the Saturday night poker game with the guys.

byronius, you didn't just have a hopefully-enlightening conversation with an ill-informed person, you just performed a public service!

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Response to Xolodno (Reply #16)

Wed Oct 25, 2017, 11:27 PM

37. +1

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Response to Xolodno (Reply #16)

Thu Oct 26, 2017, 09:40 AM

45. I have found that code to mean...

"I get my news for anywhere and everywhere except mainstream media.

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Response to Xolodno (Reply #16)

Thu Oct 26, 2017, 07:09 PM

60. What newspapers do you read?

"Any of 'em, all of 'em."

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Response to byronius (Original post)

Wed Oct 25, 2017, 06:43 PM

17. Great post "byronius"

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Response to byronius (Original post)

Wed Oct 25, 2017, 07:00 PM

18. oh you did a wonderful job

presenting the facts to this person. You kept your emotions intact. Do you think you educated him??? they need a lot of that. Facts need to replace FAKE, I hate that word.

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Response to byronius (Original post)

Wed Oct 25, 2017, 07:01 PM

19. stupidity and ignorance

not knowing about private prisons or Citizen's United is pretty big.

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Response to byronius (Original post)

Wed Oct 25, 2017, 07:08 PM

21. You done good! And as I suspected, they're uninformed, don't follow issues or facts...

and may not be the sharpest tacks on the board. Sound bites work for them.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #21)

Thu Oct 26, 2017, 11:46 AM

50. For this country to work

the founding fathers realized that the electorate needed to be accurately informed. That's why they placed such importance on a free press. We have lost that, and as a result at least 1/3 of the country is catastrophically ignorant or misinformed. And just look at the results.

Also, just as the founding fathers couldn't have foreseen the current advanced state of firearms technology, they couldn't have foreseen talking, visual poison being beamed into everyone's homes and carriages (cars), i.e. faux noise and flush limpballs.

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Response to not fooled (Reply #50)

Thu Oct 26, 2017, 06:49 PM

59. True. I wonder what they would have done about these things. nt

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Response to byronius (Original post)

Wed Oct 25, 2017, 07:10 PM

22. Catch more flies with honey

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Response to byronius (Original post)

Wed Oct 25, 2017, 07:25 PM

24. I just love these stories.

 

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Response to B2G (Reply #24)

Wed Oct 25, 2017, 08:02 PM

29. I would call this an account of an encounter

Because "stories" sort of implies things that are made up, I know you didn't mean to imply that!

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Response to ChubbyStar (Reply #29)

Thu Oct 26, 2017, 01:28 PM

54. Stories is correct...

"Account" is a synonym of story. Hey read the posts above yours about critical thinking and look it up.

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Response to N_E_1 for Tennis (Reply #54)

Thu Oct 26, 2017, 07:18 PM

62. I was talking about the connotation of the word not denotation

But thanks for the snarky reply.

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Response to byronius (Original post)

Wed Oct 25, 2017, 07:27 PM

25. Probably indicative of most Trump voters.

They don't know what Republicans have done because either they get their "news" from places that won't reveal new that reflects badly on Republicans or just don't pay attention to politics at all.

That's a problem with a Democracy.
Uninformed voters are susceptible to propaganda making decisions for them.
Decisions that they would never make if they understood what they were voting for.

Unless Dems find a platform as effective at communicating to the public as Fox News and AM radio they will remain at a disadvantage.

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Response to byronius (Original post)

Wed Oct 25, 2017, 07:29 PM

27. Thank you for trying. I personally do not have the patience to deal with such gross ignorance.

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Response to LonePirate (Reply #27)

Wed Oct 25, 2017, 11:32 PM

38. Agree, I have to leave that job to very kind and patient people.

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Response to byronius (Original post)

Wed Oct 25, 2017, 08:11 PM

31. Most importantly, did you wash your hands afterwards?

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Response to byronius (Original post)

Wed Oct 25, 2017, 08:35 PM

32. That is the problem in a nutshell

The average Trump voter was loaded up with lies about Hillary, hated Obama (even non-whites in many cases because of all the floating lies), and wanted to believe that Trump was a populist hero that would be the champion of the middle class because it makes perfect sense that someone that has never been anything but rich and extraordinarily privileged would understand the poor and middle class...

Nice run on sentence, huh?

But that represents the disordered, uninformed thinking.

You have people that don’t know shit about anything and never have known shit about anything making decisions about voting for the leader of our country, their district and their state.

Overall o

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Response to Moral Compass (Reply #32)

Thu Oct 26, 2017, 07:12 PM

61. Exactly

They don't know jack shit but they have opinions and they vote.

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Response to byronius (Original post)

Wed Oct 25, 2017, 11:02 PM

35. Change comes . . .

one person at a time. Often with patience and perseverance.

You did a good thing! A very good thing.

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Response to byronius (Original post)

Wed Oct 25, 2017, 11:05 PM

36. you lucky S.O.B

i cant throw a stone without hitting a trump supporter around me. then again i live in one of the deepest red counties in deep red Indiana. I think Trump got almost 80% of the vote here.

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Response to D_Master81 (Reply #36)

Wed Oct 25, 2017, 11:37 PM

39. I cannot imagine that.

It would be like a constant heavy weight on my life.

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Response to D_Master81 (Reply #36)

Thu Oct 26, 2017, 10:47 AM

48. Does it

ever make you want to move? Just asking.

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Response to byronius (Original post)

Thu Oct 26, 2017, 03:55 AM

42. Nice post, byronius. And well done.

Planting some doubt and shining a ray of light on matters (even if just a little bit) could be the spark that cuts a new, positive neural pathway in that young man’s mind.

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Response to byronius (Original post)

Thu Oct 26, 2017, 08:05 AM

43. You are a better person than me, byronius

anymore, I refuse to interact with any of them

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Response to byronius (Original post)

Thu Oct 26, 2017, 10:46 AM

47. I wish you would have asked him.

What's even sadder is that since he is young, he and his generation will suffer for a very long time thanks to trump's Supreme Court pick. I wish you would have asked him about 2018. Will he vote to put a check on trump or just vote repub?

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Response to byronius (Original post)

Thu Oct 26, 2017, 11:16 AM

49. I think you made an impact :)

good job.

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Response to byronius (Original post)

Thu Oct 26, 2017, 11:50 AM

51. Is our education system lacking, our media as well, or are some just not paying attention?

Why are so many unaware of Citizens United, the private prison complex that enriches a few, the tax cut/trickle down scam that has never worked and never will?

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Response to byronius (Original post)

Thu Oct 26, 2017, 01:09 PM

53. "not you typical Trumpling?"

He ignorance of the facts, and blindly following the BS spewed by Fox and their lapdogs, indicates that he cery much is.

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Response to byronius (Original post)

Thu Oct 26, 2017, 03:40 PM

55. When did Obama legalize gay marriage?

Didn’t the SCOTUS have something to do with that?

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Response to stopbush (Reply #55)

Thu Oct 26, 2017, 03:45 PM

57. Mushy. Very mushy non-logic on all fronts. Pleasant fellow, no ground beneath his feet.

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Response to byronius (Original post)

Sun Oct 29, 2017, 12:45 AM

65. Saving America by de-programming one glassy-eyed uninformed voter at a time!

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