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Fri Oct 27, 2017, 02:55 PM

60% of guns used to commit crimes in Chicago from 2009 to 2013 originated outside of Illinois.

Love this comment on their Facebook page:

Chicago turned its city into a no-peeing section of a public pool. And then they got surrounded on all sides by a bunch of asparagus-eating yeehaws with full bladders.

Which is why every conservative who starts a gun debate with "what about Chicago" needs to shut up.





OCT. 26, 2017 AT 1:16 PM
Gun Laws Stop At State Lines, But Guns Don’t
By Jeff Asher and Mai Nguyen

Graphics by Rachael Dottle

Filed under Guns

Soon after the tragic mass shooting in Las Vegas, the White House batted down the idea of enacting more gun control with the argument that many cities with strict gun laws have high murder rates. The White House specifically pointed to Chicago and Baltimore as “some of America’s cities with the strictest gun laws” coupled with “the highest rates of gun violence.” While the statement has some merit — Chicago and Baltimore had the first and third most murders nationally in 20161 — evidence suggests a city or state’s gun laws may only be as effective as those of the state next door.

The relationship between state gun laws and the flow of firearms between states can be measured using data from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, which traces guns’ origins and where law enforcement recovers them. An analysis of data from 107 pairs of bordering states2 throughout the country shows a relationship between the strictness of a state’s gun laws relative to its neighbor and the number of firearms recovered3 from that neighbor.4
Jens Ludwig, a professor at the University of Chicago and director of the University of Chicago crime lab, notes that ATF data “that has been analyzed by academics across the country regularly shows that in cities that try to control gun violence by supplementing federal regulations with additional local gun laws, those laws are regularly undermined by crime guns coming in from other states.”

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More: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/gun-laws-stop-at-state-lines-but-guns-dont/?ex_cid=538fb

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Reply 60% of guns used to commit crimes in Chicago from 2009 to 2013 originated outside of Illinois. (Original post)
Quixote1818 Oct 2017 OP
Hoyt Oct 2017 #1
AncientGeezer Oct 2017 #4
Hoyt Oct 2017 #9
Lee-Lee Oct 2017 #20
Hoyt Oct 2017 #30
AncientGeezer Oct 2017 #40
AncientGeezer Oct 2017 #23
Hoyt Oct 2017 #31
AncientGeezer Oct 2017 #44
Initech Oct 2017 #2
AncientGeezer Oct 2017 #25
Initech Oct 2017 #27
AncientGeezer Oct 2017 #29
Hoyt Oct 2017 #33
AncientGeezer Oct 2017 #36
SoCalMusicLover Oct 2017 #3
Lee-Lee Oct 2017 #5
Kolesar Oct 2017 #7
Lee-Lee Oct 2017 #10
Kolesar Oct 2017 #14
Lee-Lee Oct 2017 #19
Kolesar Oct 2017 #21
Lee-Lee Oct 2017 #22
Kolesar Oct 2017 #24
AncientGeezer Oct 2017 #28
Egnever Oct 2017 #34
AncientGeezer Oct 2017 #37
Egnever Oct 2017 #41
AncientGeezer Oct 2017 #45
Kolesar Oct 2017 #52
AncientGeezer Oct 2017 #53
ClarendonDem Oct 2017 #39
Egnever Oct 2017 #42
AncientGeezer Oct 2017 #46
Egnever Oct 2017 #47
ClarendonDem Oct 2017 #49
AncientGeezer Oct 2017 #50
AncientGeezer Oct 2017 #57
ClarendonDem Oct 2017 #48
DetroitLegalBeagle Oct 2017 #56
sarisataka Oct 2017 #55
Amishman Oct 2017 #6
Kolesar Oct 2017 #8
Amishman Oct 2017 #11
Kolesar Oct 2017 #16
AncientGeezer Oct 2017 #38
Not Ruth Oct 2017 #12
former9thward Oct 2017 #15
Amishman Oct 2017 #17
Kolesar Oct 2017 #18
Paladin Oct 2017 #43
Kolesar Oct 2017 #51
Lee-Lee Oct 2017 #13
Paladin Oct 2017 #32
Egnever Oct 2017 #35
AncientGeezer Oct 2017 #54
underpants Oct 2017 #26

Response to Quixote1818 (Original post)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 03:05 PM

1. We need "national reciprocity" on tough gun laws, not lax laws as gunners want. n/t

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #1)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 03:27 PM

4. How about putting the teeth of Law on the thieves?

 

"“or be stolen from cars. Theft is a big source of these guns, and it doesn’t take a high percentage of stolen guns to result in a high absolute number accessible to criminals.”

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Response to AncientGeezer (Reply #4)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 03:40 PM

9. That'll help along with you gunners leaving your guns at home and stopping buying

more and more of the dang things.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #9)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 03:53 PM

20. Blame the robber, not the victim

 

If we kept robbers and other people who make careers victimizing people behind bars longe maybe we wouldn't have so many low life scumbags out stealing guns and everything else they can.

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Response to Lee-Lee (Reply #20)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 04:37 PM

30. Maybe so. But if you gunners would do your part, that would help too.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #30)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 05:31 PM

40. What would be "your part" ?

 

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #9)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 04:01 PM

23. Actually it won't....leaving them at home.

 

There are criminals that will traffic in illegal guns regardless of where a law abiding citizen keeps theirs....that horse left the barn decades ago.

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Response to AncientGeezer (Reply #23)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 04:41 PM

31. Yeah, but every time you buy one, every time some white wing racist buys one, every time some George

Zimmerman buys a gun, etc., it keeps putting more and more of them on the streets, keeps the NRA in business and GOPers in office, unscrupulous dealers in business, promotes more gun shows where any fool can buy a gun without a background check, etc. Gunners -- to the extent they are truly law abiding, could all but end this crap if they'd do what is moral. Don't expect them to, but they could.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #31)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 05:39 PM

44. What is "moral"..you don't care about moral..."white wingers.."

 

How about enforcing EXISTING laws to the fullest extent....that's moral...No(?)

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Response to Quixote1818 (Original post)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 03:06 PM

2. Yeah but facts don't matter to racists.

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Response to Initech (Reply #2)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 04:12 PM

25. What does that mean?

 

Am I racist for wanting to stop the theft of guns in neighboring states and trafficking of them in Cities with already high crime rates?

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Response to AncientGeezer (Reply #25)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 04:20 PM

27. No I'm saying if you present facts like this to Trumplodytes and racists, they won't care.

They will just dismiss it because it doesn't fit their narrative.

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Response to Initech (Reply #27)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 04:31 PM

29. Except.....the underlying issue. Existing laws aren't being

 

enforced...or forcefully adjudicated.
The article says....“Theft is a big source of these guns, and it doesn’t take a high percentage of stolen guns to result in a high absolute number accessible to criminals.”
A Thief is selling stolen arms to criminals.... lock them all up I don't care if it's purple guys.....enforcement doesn't need a racist metric

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Response to AncientGeezer (Reply #29)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 04:48 PM

33. Yeah, but gun ownership has a racist metric too.



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Response to Hoyt (Reply #33)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 05:16 PM

36. Really...AA legal owners in Chicago are racist, Baltimore..racist

 

Dallas..racist, my wife, maiden name Gonzalaz...racist? For legally owning?

You said you didn't use "white wingers" pre Dumpster...shall we revisit that false claim?
Your credibility is waning....I'll post the links here if you'd like

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Response to Quixote1818 (Original post)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 03:16 PM

3. I Did Not Realize Guns Were Portable

 

So a gun from Michigan, can miraculously travel to IL and be used in a crime?

Who woulda thunk it?

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Response to Quixote1818 (Original post)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 03:30 PM

5. It's already illegal to buy across state lines unless it from an FFL

 

And it must be a background check and the purchase must be in compliance with the laws of the buyers residence.

If Illinois residents are raveling outside the state they are either buying legally and following all the laws they would buying in Illinois or both the buyers and sellers are committing Federal level felonies.

If residents from other states are bringing guns into Illinois and selling them they are committing multiple felonies per transaction.

The problem is nobody bothers with enforcement of the laws that exist and address this exact issue. Making it more illegal on a state level isn't going to deter people willing to commit Federal felonies because Federal time is a lot harsher than state time. But it's all pointless because the BATFE doesn't put enough focus or effort on it.

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Response to Lee-Lee (Reply #5)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 03:36 PM

7. The problem is that guns are easily available in Indiana

Their government is deluded and won't control sales in Indiana.

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Response to Kolesar (Reply #7)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 03:41 PM

10. It's already illegal to take them into Illinois unless an FFL is used

 

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Response to Lee-Lee (Reply #10)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 03:44 PM

14. The problem is NOT that "nobody bothers with enforcement of the laws that exist"...eom

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Response to Kolesar (Reply #14)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 03:50 PM

19. Exactly what I said above

 

Adding more laws because you can't be bothered to enforce the ones that exist already is like buying more food because you are hungry when you haven't bothered to eat the pantry full you already have.

But they want more laws because the agenda isn't really to target the guns flowing into Chicago. Existing laws are there to do that well if they are just used. But enforcement of those laws will just target the criminals. They instead want to use this as an excuse for new laws that affect all non-criminal gun owners in those other states.

Because their main goal isn't targeting and stopping criminal use of guns, that is just the excuse. They want to limit all gun use by the law abiding, and they are willing to use high levels of inner city violence to justify it even if that means advocating policies that will allow that violence to go on longer, because it serves their agenda for it to exist.

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Response to Lee-Lee (Reply #19)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 03:53 PM

21. I edited in some quotes so you can see that I *refuted* you ... eom

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Response to Kolesar (Reply #21)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 04:00 PM

22. And your wrong

 

If your claim is the problem is that guns from Indiana are going into Chicago, and there are laws against taking them across state lines in the way that they go, and those laws are not enforced (as evidenced by the fact that it's happening) then the problem is indeed that the law intended to prevent the problem is not enforced.

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Response to Lee-Lee (Reply #22)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 04:06 PM

24. "Enforce the laws before making any more" is a Right Wing tautology

More restrictions in Indiana would make Indiana and Illinois safer. Most Americans know that and most Americans, including many gun owners, want that. The NRA stops legislatures from protecting us, though. They want more sales of firearms.

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Response to Kolesar (Reply #24)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 04:23 PM

28. "More restrictions in Indiana would make Indiana and Illinois safer." How?

 

Wouldn't enforcing existing laws both Federal and State.....like don't steal guns from ANYwhere make Illinois safer?

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Response to AncientGeezer (Reply #28)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 04:48 PM

34. Pretty straight forward

 

Banning the sale of guns would stop the flow at the source.

Is that really hard to understand?

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Response to Egnever (Reply #34)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 05:21 PM

37. Ban the sale of a legal product...OK....

 

Let's suppose that happened......350M+ firearms out there now, how do you "stop that flow at the source" ?
Do tell.

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Response to AncientGeezer (Reply #37)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 05:31 PM

41. Time

 

Again pretty simple.

Kinda like saying I just watered my lawn and the grass is all wet! How do I stop the grass being wet?

Turn the fucking water off. Yes it will still be wet for a while but it will dry out.


Pretending we can't outlaw guns because there are a lot of them is ridiculous.

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Response to Egnever (Reply #41)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 05:44 PM

45. How that works out...perpetual Trumpanzees being in office.

 

Your analogy is foolish....do you have any idea grass-guns....
This is why we can't have nice things...."Pretending we can't outlaw guns because there are a lot of them is ridiculous."
What do you propose...confiscation?

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Response to AncientGeezer (Reply #45)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 06:21 PM

52. You are being obtuse.

You know more about this than your irritated post indicates. I read your posts downthread, stop being coy.

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Response to Kolesar (Reply #52)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 06:32 PM

53. Being straight up honest, not obtuse...nothing coy about it either....

 

Or irritated in the least...the question remains....what is the fix?
Wholeheartedly honest question that shouldn't take much effort to answer.

Damn right I know about it...been around for a LONG time.

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Response to Egnever (Reply #34)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 05:31 PM

39. We can't convince Congress to pass universal background checks

 

So I think there's zero chance they'll ban the sale of firearms (assuming such a law would even be constitutional). And the vast majority of states would vote out any politician that proposed banning the sale of firearms.

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Response to ClarendonDem (Reply #39)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 05:33 PM

42. Does not need to be all guns

 

And we have already banned assault weapons in the past with no issues with the second amendment so yet again another weak excuse.

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Response to Egnever (Reply #42)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 05:46 PM

46. No actualy we didn't.....we banned "features"...not the operation of the

 

weapons.

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Response to AncientGeezer (Reply #46)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 05:53 PM

47. Well then we could certainly ban anything but single shot weapons

 

You have a whole.lot of silly excuses

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Response to Egnever (Reply #47)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 06:02 PM

49. How could we do that

 

Even if the political will existed to enact such a ban -- and you appear to agree that it doesn't -- Heller rejects the notion that the 2d Amendment only protects arms that were in existence in the 18th Century, stating that argument "borders on frivolous."

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Response to Egnever (Reply #47)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 06:05 PM

50. How? It's not an excuse....it's a fact.

 

President Clinton didn't ban semi-autos.
9minutes after the 94 "ban"...manufactures were doing a work around.

I live in NY...SAFE act state....many AR type guns are "banned"....on cosmetic features
This isn't.....it's compliant.....yet functions exactly the same way as any AR....

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Response to Egnever (Reply #47)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 07:47 PM

57. Can we ban your phone data because 1st Amendment Egnever?

 

Don't give me that your data doesn't kill people because we KNOW ISIL uses the Web to recruit....and on occasion 1 of those a'holes goes off and commits a horrific crime.

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Response to Egnever (Reply #42)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 05:57 PM

48. I didn't argue that an assault weapon ban

 

Would be unconstitutional, but a ban on the sale of all firearms likely would be. Anyway, an assault weapon ban would have very little impact on the firearm violence that is a problem in Chicago, since the vast majority of crimes there are committed with handguns.

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Response to Egnever (Reply #42)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 07:33 PM

56. I wouldn't expect that to stay true if the GOP get 1 more SCOTUS pick

If the GOP pick Kennedy's replacement(the most likely candidate to step down next), then I fully expect an Assault Weapons ban case to get run through the courts as fast as the NRA can fund it. Kennedy is seen by many as the main reason the current Court has refused to hear any more gun cases. Talk among former SCOTUS clerks is Kennedy was the main dampening factor on Scalia's DC v Heller decision, that Scalia softened it some to keep Kennedy on board. SCOTUS has a tendency to want to correct splits between appellate courts, and to some extent, State supreme courts. Primarily to keep the law as uniform as possible at the higher levels. There is currently a split between courts on concealed carry and the SCOTUS has bopped 2 cases so far that could be used to resolve the split.

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Response to Egnever (Reply #34)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 07:03 PM

55. I thought nobody was talking

About banning guns. I was told that is simply an NRA lie

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Response to Quixote1818 (Original post)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 03:34 PM

6. If guns are so readily available in those other places, why are their crime rates lower?

Guns are a symptom of the problem, not the root. The problem is poverty and lack of opportunity for the disadvantaged

Fix economic inequality, take the stupid out of the drug war, and fix our education system and then you will see real results.

(That being said, laws to reduce unintended access to guns are still a really good idea. Safe storage laws would cut down on gun theft and accidents by children)

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Response to Amishman (Reply #6)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 03:38 PM

8. The crime rates in Chicago and Baltimore are not "high" because of gun control...eom

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Response to Kolesar (Reply #8)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 03:42 PM

11. Exactly, they are high because of factors completely unrelated to guns

We should address those issues if we want to actually help people. Less poverty correlates very strongly with less crime.

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Response to Amishman (Reply #11)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 03:46 PM

16. The crime rates in Chicago and Baltimore are not "high" because possession is illegal...eom

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Response to Kolesar (Reply #16)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 05:27 PM

38. Then why are so many gun crimes related to illegal guns in those cities?

 

It's not legal owners in those cities committing the assaults is it?
Yes there are legal owners in those cities.

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Response to Amishman (Reply #6)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 03:42 PM

12. It is not even all of Chicago that has a gun violence issue

 

Much of Chicago is very safe, so one could make the case that gun control is working exactly as designed in those neighborhoods.

Lincoln Park for example has had a single homicide in the last 365 days.

http://crime.chicagotribune.com/chicago/community/lincoln-park

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Response to Not Ruth (Reply #12)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 03:45 PM

15. Is that because of "gun control"?

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Response to former9thward (Reply #15)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 03:48 PM

17. No. Guns have nothing to do with the problem or solution

When attempting to reduce crime the most effective approach is to reduce poverty, ignorance, and lack of opportunity.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #15)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 03:49 PM

18. Most of us grew up and lost the impulsive and violent nature. It's demographics...eom

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Response to Kolesar (Reply #18)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 05:35 PM

43. What exactly do you mean by "demographics"?

Your use of that term set off my dog whistle detector.

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Response to Paladin (Reply #43)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 06:13 PM

51. The crime rate was twice as high or worse when the baby boomers were young

Teenage and young adult men get into crime at a higher rate than "normal".
There are other factors that brought the crime rate down. Employment opportunities were truly bad thirty or forty years ago.

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Response to Amishman (Reply #6)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 03:43 PM

13. Your being too complex for the mind of the gun prohibitionists

 

Attacking the root causes of violent behavior instead of one tool (of many) used in that violent behavior requires critical thinking skills and looking at violence as a complex problem instead of just yelling about guns.

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Response to Lee-Lee (Reply #13)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 04:45 PM

32. Are you capable of using "you're" rather than the incorrect "your"?

Or is that too complex for you?

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Response to Lee-Lee (Reply #13)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 04:50 PM

35. So the dude who shot up last Vegas was rich

 

What's his excuse . You can't pin it on poverty.

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Response to Egnever (Reply #35)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 06:48 PM

54. There is no excuse for him...he was a whack job...

 

..but by mid August this yr...2400 people had been shot in Chicago(down almost 300 from '16)....some 450 total homicides.....what would you say that's based on?

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Response to Quixote1818 (Original post)

Fri Oct 27, 2017, 04:15 PM

26. Yep I95 (east coast) is the "Iron Pipeline"

A vest majority of the guns in DC Baltimore Philly and NYC come from Virginia.

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