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They raped my Grandmother, lynched my Uncle, broke up my family-you find honor, you racist prick? (Original Post) kpete Oct 2017 OP
Was your Granny wearing something provocative? MagickMuffin Oct 2017 #1
I'll fill in the blank rainin Oct 2017 #2
Dark skin has provoked whites to violence many times throughout history IronLionZion Oct 2017 #10
Yep. Dark skin can still be pretty provocative. maddiemom Nov 2017 #51
Muffin saidsimplesimon Oct 2017 #26
They consistently use the tactic of accusing the other side of things they themselves are guilty of. StrictlyRockers Oct 2017 #3
The trouble with history is that it is not personal packman Oct 2017 #4
In order to be ok with slavery one has to think of slaves as something less than human. Ligyron Oct 2017 #21
Remarkably stupid and heartless of Kelly! And certainly racist! Ukapau Oct 2017 #5
I am not going to blame Trump for Kelly tulipsandroses Oct 2017 #9
Agree Meowmee Oct 2017 #29
I blame Trump for choosing racist loser Kelly as his chief of staff. yardwork Oct 2017 #38
Certainly! Some call him an oaf, a buffoon DesertRat Oct 2017 #25
What the hell compromise could have avoided the civil war... HopeAgain Oct 2017 #6
This? Submariner Oct 2017 #11
The "Missouri Compromise"? maddiemom Oct 2017 #14
Exactly, still involved slavery and didn't work HopeAgain Oct 2017 #16
I believe he was referring to the Crittenden Committee Yupster Oct 2017 #37
There was no compromise possible. yardwork Oct 2017 #39
Remember Lincoln ran on the platform that he was no threat to the south's system of slavery Yupster Oct 2017 #40
And that was not enough for the slave-owning states. yardwork Oct 2017 #41
All I can think of is that they would agree treestar Oct 2017 #24
Oh, really? Perhaps counting slaves as two-fifths of a person Ellen Forradalom Oct 2017 #7
Conservative Compromise rpannier Nov 2017 #43
At a loss peggysue2 Oct 2017 #8
"Besides that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?" Lee's traitorous behavior Ukapau Oct 2017 #12
also, why even bring it up or make the comments onit2day Oct 2017 #17
Right, you are peggysue2 Oct 2017 #22
It's simple atreides1 Nov 2017 #46
I'll admit MichMary Oct 2017 #28
Swept into this sewer? RandomAccess Oct 2017 #31
Kelly was in the Fucking sewer long before he started maxrandb Oct 2017 #32
Keep it up, keep it up SCantiGOP Oct 2017 #13
K & R SunSeeker Oct 2017 #15
An excellent comment at the bottom of the page with the Ta-Nehisi Coates piece: scarletwoman Oct 2017 #18
Lee was a traitor who got off way too light. 47of74 Oct 2017 #19
We should have tried Lee and the traitors. Initech Oct 2017 #20
Money. End. Of. Story. ChubbyStar Oct 2017 #23
Message auto-removed Name removed Oct 2017 #27
The only compromise should have been Progressive dog Oct 2017 #30
Ta-Nehisi Coates shredded John Kelly's statement on twitter w/ a very informative thread. SaschaHM Oct 2017 #33
These neo confederate racists are the enemy workinclasszero Oct 2017 #34
With malice toward none, with charity for all... Dark n Stormy Knight Oct 2017 #35
If Lincoln would have lived Yupster Oct 2017 #42
Lincoln didn't mean to "enoble" the South, just forgive them, basically. maddiemom Nov 2017 #47
I meant "ennoble" in the sense of making them see themselves as better than they were. Dark n Stormy Knight Nov 2017 #48
Interesting. Food for further thought. maddiemom Nov 2017 #49
White Supremacists zentrum Oct 2017 #36
Message auto-removed Name removed Nov 2017 #44
Ken Burns... pokerfan Nov 2017 #45
AKA "States' Rights." maddiemom Nov 2017 #50
My high school US History teacher tried to teach us that crap pokerfan Nov 2017 #52

MagickMuffin

(15,893 posts)
1. Was your Granny wearing something provocative?
Tue Oct 31, 2017, 10:31 AM
Oct 2017

There are "preachers" who claim women wearing provocative clothing is asking to be raped and apparently they think these women deserve it.


Wendell, I'm sorry for what happened to your family and all the other families that were subjected to terrorism by the (fill in the blank) _________________!!!

IronLionZion

(45,269 posts)
10. Dark skin has provoked whites to violence many times throughout history
Tue Oct 31, 2017, 11:44 AM
Oct 2017

the ideology of humans as property means they don't really feel they need consent to have sex with property. The same with people who are considered inferior somehow.

maddiemom

(5,106 posts)
51. Yep. Dark skin can still be pretty provocative.
Fri Nov 3, 2017, 09:12 AM
Nov 2017

Interesting, after all these years, that President Obama and many other successful public figures, and just normal people who are half white are still considered black. We don't have, and really should not have, a modern day simple term for mixed race that is in use. So...it's just kind of bizarre that the old rules of a drop or two of black blood makes someone black still are in use IF the individual has darker skin. Otherwise, who would know, without personally being aware of an individual's family background?

StrictlyRockers

(3,854 posts)
3. They consistently use the tactic of accusing the other side of things they themselves are guilty of.
Tue Oct 31, 2017, 10:49 AM
Oct 2017

It seems to work because Rethuglicans are so dumb, they will believe anything.

It's disheartening to see it, but this is what we are faced with. The cognitive dissonance is real. A third of the country will believe any lie that is consistent with their pre-held beliefs, rather than face a reality that is jarring & requires honest reflection. Analysis is hard. Sticking to your beliefs is way easier.

 

packman

(16,296 posts)
4. The trouble with history is that it is not personal
Tue Oct 31, 2017, 11:02 AM
Oct 2017

It ignores the people involved in it. Easy to say, as Kelly did, that Lee was honorable and the Civil War could have been avoided by compromise, but that removes one from the humans involved on a daily basis in the horror of slavery. I would think that a general would almost have to think that way - not excusing Kelly who has lost his honor and integrity in his enslavement to Trump's and the right wing ideology.

Ligyron

(7,592 posts)
21. In order to be ok with slavery one has to think of slaves as something less than human.
Tue Oct 31, 2017, 01:14 PM
Oct 2017

That way they're like livestock and it's justifiable. Once one realizes they are as human as you are, slavery become the horror it truly is.

 

Ukapau

(78 posts)
5. Remarkably stupid and heartless of Kelly! And certainly racist!
Tue Oct 31, 2017, 11:14 AM
Oct 2017

In order to curry favor with the orange president, he came out with this utter BS!

I imagine that many, many military people are cringing, and certainly are glad the North won the Civil War. Kelly seems to be supporting the slave-owners' point of view.

And thus Trump continues to corrupt everyone close to him!

HopeAgain

(4,407 posts)
6. What the hell compromise could have avoided the civil war...
Tue Oct 31, 2017, 11:21 AM
Oct 2017

That didn't include the continued enslavement of human beings?

Yupster

(14,308 posts)
37. I believe he was referring to the Crittenden Committee
Tue Oct 31, 2017, 08:43 PM
Oct 2017

They tried to reach a last minute compromise once Lincoln was elected. Lincoln is blamed for its failure as he wouldn't give Seward instructions on what he would or wouldn't accept since he was only president-elect, not yet president.

Yupster

(14,308 posts)
40. Remember Lincoln ran on the platform that he was no threat to the south's system of slavery
Tue Oct 31, 2017, 09:38 PM
Oct 2017

He wanted to keep it from territories, not ban it where it already was.

yardwork

(61,420 posts)
41. And that was not enough for the slave-owning states.
Tue Oct 31, 2017, 09:55 PM
Oct 2017

Older sons inherited their father's entire estates. That meant that younger sons had to find their own land and build their own plantations. They wanted to take over the new territories to the west. They wanted those new states to be slave-owning states. As the country expanded west, the war was inevitable.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
24. All I can think of is that they would agree
Tue Oct 31, 2017, 01:30 PM
Oct 2017

to phase out slavery over a time period and pay wages. Find a way to do it peacefully, but yeah, it had to end and they weren't up for that.

Ellen Forradalom

(16,159 posts)
7. Oh, really? Perhaps counting slaves as two-fifths of a person
Tue Oct 31, 2017, 11:28 AM
Oct 2017

would've avoided the Civil War?

Where one of these people says "compromise," they mean "my way or the highway."

peggysue2

(10,811 posts)
8. At a loss
Tue Oct 31, 2017, 11:28 AM
Oct 2017

I'm at a complete loss when it comes to Kelly and how thoroughly he's been swept into this sewer. His comments on Robert E. Lee are inexplicable when one considers the carnage of the Civil War. And yes, there was a dispute over slavery but there was no compromise in the face of decency to be made. Although I accept that we cannot judge our ancestors with today's yardsticks, there is a limit when it comes to basic morality. There were not two objective truths to the argument. One cannot ascribe 'good faith' to those who approved and were willing to break the Nation over human bondage.

Robert E. Lee had the advantage of wealth and education. To his shame, he chose to be on the wrong side of history. That is not the mark of nobility or honor. Seen in its best light the stance is arrogant. At it's worst? Immoral and treasonous.

This 'both sides are equal' is eerily like the Trumpster's comments on Charlottesville.

 

Ukapau

(78 posts)
12. "Besides that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?" Lee's traitorous behavior
Tue Oct 31, 2017, 11:50 AM
Oct 2017

in the Civil War should not be celebrated, as Kelly comes close to suggesting.

Lee, himself, decreed that at his funeral, there would be no Confederate flags or uniforms. He was not at all interested in statues continuing to promote the South's causes.

Too bad Kelly didn't learn this lesson from Lee.

peggysue2

(10,811 posts)
22. Right, you are
Tue Oct 31, 2017, 01:23 PM
Oct 2017

Why? Why bring this up after the Wilson debacle? Why bring it up at all? To start another diversion for the Boss or appease the Trumpkins so he can remain in place?

None of it makes sense. Whatever reputation Kelly had is forever ruined. Like Lee, he made the choice. Trump-stink will have a long afterlife.


atreides1

(16,047 posts)
46. It's simple
Wed Nov 1, 2017, 10:12 AM
Nov 2017

Mr. Kelly was swearing his loyalty to Trump...in much the same way that Klan members swear their loyalty to the Klan!!!

And it had to be a public declaration of loyalty, something that Kelly wouldn't be able to back track on later!!!

MichMary

(1,714 posts)
28. I'll admit
Tue Oct 31, 2017, 02:26 PM
Oct 2017

to being a bit naive, but when I heard that he had said "compromise," I immediately thought of federal subsidies so that slaves could be freed and wages paid so that the plantations could continue to run.

 

RandomAccess

(5,210 posts)
31. Swept into this sewer?
Tue Oct 31, 2017, 04:41 PM
Oct 2017

The MSM media has done their best to lionize him, but believe me, he's no saint:


HE'S A TERRIBLE PERSON, AND THAT'S NOT NEW: https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029734484#post38

JOHN KELLY: THE FACTS https://www.aclu.org/other/john-kelly-facts

maxrandb

(15,193 posts)
32. Kelly was in the Fucking sewer long before he started
Tue Oct 31, 2017, 05:05 PM
Oct 2017

Working for Donnie Short Fingers.

Just because you wear a uniform, it doesn't give you honor or integrity.

I worked for 7 Flag Officers as an executive assistant or aide during my military service.

5 of them I would have gone through a wall for. 2 of them would have caused me to take a sledgehammer to my knee if I was ever going to be assigned to them again.

Kelly was a racist prick long before Donnie Short Fingers made him a racist prick Chief of Staff

SCantiGOP

(13,856 posts)
13. Keep it up, keep it up
Tue Oct 31, 2017, 11:51 AM
Oct 2017

I really don't think that embracing the Confederacy, outside of the the Deep South where they are going to win anyway, is any kind of winning campaign strategy.
The tweet above is from an African American, but a lot of those white working-class Trump voters in the Midwest also had family members killed fighting the treason of the slaveholders.

scarletwoman

(31,893 posts)
18. An excellent comment at the bottom of the page with the Ta-Nehisi Coates piece:
Tue Oct 31, 2017, 12:34 PM
Oct 2017

If I say slavery is bad,
and you say it's good,
let's compromise,
and you be a slave.

Keith Boykin

 

47of74

(18,470 posts)
19. Lee was a traitor who got off way too light.
Tue Oct 31, 2017, 12:56 PM
Oct 2017

The entire south got off way too light after their war of aggression and treason against the United States.

Response to kpete (Original post)

Progressive dog

(6,864 posts)
30. The only compromise should have been
Tue Oct 31, 2017, 04:28 PM
Oct 2017

after the traitors were beaten. There were lots of "compromises" before those scum decided to fire on loyal Americans. The Constitution even gave the traitorous scum an extra six-tenths of a vote for every person they enslaved and they wanted more.
Lee and the other head traitors were responsible for hundreds of thousands of American deaths. They should have been tried and punished for their crimes. Americans don't defend statues of murderous traitors, but so called general Kelly does.

 

workinclasszero

(28,270 posts)
34. These neo confederate racists are the enemy
Tue Oct 31, 2017, 05:16 PM
Oct 2017

backed by a Russian dictator and his puppet stooge installed in the white house.

The hundreds of thousands of American patriots that fought and died to preserve this nation from confederate traitors and slavers in the first place must be spinning in their graves at the shit coming down from pResdient RAT and filthy administration stooges like Kelly!

Dark n Stormy Knight

(9,760 posts)
35. With malice toward none, with charity for all...
Tue Oct 31, 2017, 06:22 PM
Oct 2017

Lincoln thought he could ennoble the errant South by treating them with forgiveness and respect.

He was wrong. It simply emboldened them that their cause was righteous and they are still fighting for it. Of course, it's not only the South, but if those traitors had been handled with more justice and less consolation, maybe those attitudes would have faded rather than spread.

Yupster

(14,308 posts)
42. If Lincoln would have lived
Tue Oct 31, 2017, 10:52 PM
Oct 2017

things would have worked out a lot better.

He was dead within six weeks of saying those words.

maddiemom

(5,106 posts)
47. Lincoln didn't mean to "enoble" the South, just forgive them, basically.
Wed Nov 1, 2017, 12:19 PM
Nov 2017

In terms of extended families the Civil War was a hot mess. "Brother against Brother" wasn't so far off the mark. This sort of struggle has been used in fiction so often, that we tend to forget that it wasn't JUST fiction. There were still some veterans around when I (first of the "baby boomers') was growing up.

Dark n Stormy Knight

(9,760 posts)
48. I meant "ennoble" in the sense of making them see themselves as better than they were.
Thu Nov 2, 2017, 05:27 PM
Nov 2017

To not call them evil, though they were, in the hope they would stop being so.

But, I've reread the entire Second Inaugural Address and some discussion of it since posting that, and I'm not really sure what to think he meant. I'd forgotten there was so much religiosity in the speech. "It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces, but let us judge not, that we be not judged."

How do you fight a bloody battle against something unless you judge it to be wrong?

Anyway, I do tend to agree with the Radical Republicans of the day who thought he was being too forgiving of the South.

Regarding his plan for reunification:

Lincoln hoped that the leniency of the plan—90 percent of the 1860 voters did not have to swear allegiance to the Union or to emancipation—would bring about a quick and long-anticipated resolution and make emancipation more acceptable everywhere.

This approach appealed to some in the moderate wing of the Republican Party, which wanted to put the nation on a speedy course toward reconciliation. However, the proposal instantly drew fire from a larger faction of Republicans in Congress who did not want to deal moderately with the South. These members of Congress, known as Radical Republicans, wanted to remake the South and punish the rebels. Radical Republicans insisted on harsh terms for the defeated Confederacy and protection for former slaves, going far beyond what the president proposed.
https://courses.lumenlearning.com/ushistory2os2xmaster/chapter/restoring-the-union/

But who knows? One of the problems with something as horrific and destructive as slavery is that there is no way of ending it that ends up with all being well. Certainly not immediately, probably not ever.

Response to kpete (Original post)

pokerfan

(27,677 posts)
52. My high school US History teacher tried to teach us that crap
Sun Nov 5, 2017, 08:05 PM
Nov 2017

Even gave me a D for the course for not buying into it. Only D I ever received, high school or college. Thanks a lot, teach.

Right. Confederate states wanted the right to own people as livestock. Got it.

Of course they sang a different tune when it came to enforcing the Fugitive Slave Act, a federal law. Where was the states rights argument allowing northerners to opt out of that one, huh?

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