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Fri Nov 10, 2017, 10:16 PM

Captain America

“The meaning of a word is its usage.”
Ludwig Wittgenstein; Philosophical Investigations


The accusations against Roy Moore provide an unexpected, though not surprising, gift to the Democratic Party. They also come at a time when, beyond politics, there is a growing social awareness of the unacceptable dynamics that have allowed predators to use (or attempt to use) “power” to advance unwanted sexual advances. Thus, in order to be able to properly use the Moore situation for more than simple political benefit, I thought it might be of interest to discuss, as objectively as possible, some of the dynamics in this case in greater detail. As always, there will be some who disagree on some points, or interpret specific information differently; this is a good thing, and has the potential to lead to a more valuable discussion than my ramblings.

Wittgenstein's definition of words came to mind when I watched coverage of this latest republican “sex scandal.” Numerous reporters and guests panelists have referred to Moore's crime against a 14-year old as pedophilia. This is good, because that is the meaning of the word in common usage. It provides an accurate description for the general public. It is not the correct term within the field of psychiatry, though many in the treatment field find that the legal community – police, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and judges – often use the word in conversations with them.

Most of the treatment community make use of chronophilia, as coined by John Money in identifying unhealthy, primary age groups various offenders are sexually attracted to. Pedophilia is when an adult has a primary or exclusive sexual interest in prepubescent children. Roy Moore's targeting a 14-year old is an example of ephebphilia, as identified by Glueck in 1955, as a primary or exclusive interest in pubescent (or post-pubescent) teenagers.

While the roots of both tend to have areas of overlap, there are also distinct features. I think it may be interesting to consider Moore loosely in this context. Although I don't know a lot about him, what I do know seems to point to a range of personality disturbance that I used to encounter in work. I did not run any of the sexual abuse groups (I did jail and domestic violence groups), I encountered a number of offenders on my individual case load. And I coordinated treatment with the co-workers who ran those groups.

What makes a man as rigid and self-righteous as a Roy Moore? It might be useful to consider that in terms of what Dr. Michael Stone refers to as Features 1 and 2, which are thought patterns and behaviors that result. Let's take note that he speaks of Susan Neiman's gradation of behaviors that range from bad to very bad to evil. This allows us to consider how society views some behaviors today differently from the way the same behaviors were viewed in past eras, including within different contexts. This does not make excuses for past practices, but rather suggests that cultural progress is being made in some instances.

What I looked for in Moore's past is instances where, from the viewpoint of others, his thinking was rigid, and that this had an impact upon his relationship with those other people. I found it interesting that he attended military schools in his late teens, and then became an officer. Before serving in Vietnam, he was in the military police. In Vietnam, he was again in the military police, and was despised by others who found him to be too strict. He was given the nickname “Captain America” sue to his rigidity. Moore would report that, after being threatened with fragging, he slept on bales of straw for protection.

I would venture that this is an example of how Moore's Feature 1 thinking led to Feature 2 behaviors that resulted in others viewing him as a rigid, and who aggressively sought to exercise control over other people's behaviors.

Another part of Moore's thinking that is rigid, and hence results in aggressive behaviors upon his part that seek to control others, is found in his religious belief system. It is unclear (to me) if this was rooted in part in his childhood experiences. However, it is abundantly clear that his religious views have a co-morbidity with his rigid personality type. That toxic combination results in his self-identification as a morality-law enforcer.

What are the chances of such a geek having a healthy belief system regarding sexuality, and thus healthy sexual experiences? Just my opinion, but I'll speculate the chances are mighty low to nonexistent.

There are a number of factors in an adult sex offender such as Moore targeting a 14-year old for his personal satisfaction. They do not include a 32-year old assistant district attorney being comfortable with sexual relations with someone his own age. One can safely speculate that he was not confident he could sexually satisfy an adult. Thus, Moore abused his position of power to prey upon a kid.

On his Feature 1, Moore lacks the capacity to objectively evaluate what a terrible thing he did. His law and order personality, combined with his sick religious beliefs, do not allow for his being conscious of his guilt. Rather, in a ironic twist of a most-twisted mind, he consciously convinces himself that it was not him that molested a 14-year old. And it's no surprise – none – who or what he does blame.

Moore convinced himself that two sentences from Romans, found in chapter 7, lines 17 and 20, identify the real cause: “It is no longer I who am doing this evil, but the sin living in me. ...And if I do what I don't want to do, it is not I who do it, but the sin which lives in me.” The more out of touch Moore becomes with the reality of his own disgusting self, the more those Feature 1 ideas convince him that it is his role to become a modern-day prophet from the Old Testicle. And, indeed, we see how that delusional self-concept – a man who claims the moral authority to speak for “God,” and to judge others – has translated into his behaviors throughout his adulthood.

Thus, a man who really should have been incarcerated is able to climb the ladder from assistant DA to serve twice as a highest judge in his state. From this position, of which he was twice removed, he spews hatred and filth, attacking gays and lesbians, not mere attempting to deny them marriage equality, but to make them “illegal.” He attacks Islam, and advocates denying Muslims from holding elective office. He was big on the “birther” nonsense. And like Trump, he's a big fan of Putin.

Other possible criminal behaviors include paying himself well over a million dollars from his own non-profit “Foundation for Moral Law,” and using its other funds to run his political campaigns. (Washington Post)

Almost as disgusting has been some of his supporters to either normalize his behaviors, or to place them in that “Mary and Joseph” context, and to use the “Roy's being attacked by pure evil!” bit in their latest fund-raising attempts. And today, his brother actually compared the news reports to the crucifixion of Jesus.

It's unsettling to know that Roy Moore could ever win any election, much less in a state-wide contest. It's more disturbing to think he might have won a seat in the US Senate – indeed, he still might. We should all be doing our best to help his opponent, Doug Jones, win. It doesn't matter if you think he is a liberal or moderate Democrat. He has to win. Really.

We also have an opportunity to reach people on more that a political level. People need to understand that many variations and gradations of the more extreme Moore pathology exist in our society. And society as a whole benefits from confronting it.

Thank you to anyone who might have read this far!
H2O Man

31 replies, 4167 views

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Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 31 replies Author Time Post
Reply Captain America (Original post)
H2O Man Nov 2017 OP
rzemanfl Nov 2017 #1
H2O Man Nov 2017 #5
Break time Nov 2017 #2
H2O Man Nov 2017 #6
Break time Nov 2017 #7
H2O Man Nov 2017 #10
CaliforniaPeggy Nov 2017 #3
H2O Man Nov 2017 #8
babylonsister Nov 2017 #4
H2O Man Nov 2017 #9
KY_EnviroGuy Nov 2017 #11
H2O Man Nov 2017 #12
iluvtennis Nov 2017 #13
H2O Man Nov 2017 #16
shadowmayor Nov 2017 #14
H2O Man Nov 2017 #17
calimary Nov 2017 #15
H2O Man Nov 2017 #18
kentuck Nov 2017 #19
H2O Man Nov 2017 #20
malaise Nov 2017 #21
H2O Man Nov 2017 #25
coeur_de_lion Nov 2017 #22
H2O Man Nov 2017 #26
coeur_de_lion Nov 2017 #29
ProfessorGAC Nov 2017 #23
H2O Man Nov 2017 #27
kentuck Nov 2017 #24
H2O Man Nov 2017 #28
tblue37 Nov 2017 #30
H2O Man Nov 2017 #31

Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Nov 10, 2017, 10:20 PM

1. You're welcome. n/t

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Response to rzemanfl (Reply #1)

Fri Nov 10, 2017, 11:30 PM

5. Thanks again!

It's not an uplifting topic, and not pleasant to read or talk about. I appreciate that anyone would read the whole OP.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Nov 10, 2017, 10:25 PM

2. Interesting

And as usual very informative..Thank You

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Response to Break time (Reply #2)

Fri Nov 10, 2017, 11:32 PM

6. Thanks.

I find watching reports about Moore's supporters' responses highly offensive. This OP was in response.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #6)

Fri Nov 10, 2017, 11:35 PM

7. His sick

Supporters.... They are extremely offensive.. they give Christianity a much worse look than anything else I have seen..

I am always amazed at the complete lack of the true Christians lack of response and denial of these phonies

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Response to Break time (Reply #7)

Fri Nov 10, 2017, 11:41 PM

10. If there was

an individual Jesus alive in America today, these very people would stone him. In the larger sense of Jesus in the world today -- the poor, the incarcerated, the marginalized -- the treatment isn't much better.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Nov 10, 2017, 10:44 PM

3. My dear H20 Man!

I had to laugh at your term Old Testicle! I assume you did that on purpose. Well done!

Your quote from Romans chapter 7, lines 17 and 20 really clarify the whole mess for me. ...but the sin living in me. That is amazing. To make that distinction is far removed from my thinking.

Thank you for shedding so much light.

K&R

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 10, 2017, 11:36 PM

8. Thanks!

I must credit a young John Lennon for the Old Testicle bit. Or blame him for that sinful saying popping into my head as I wrote the OP, if it offends anyone. (grin)

I had enough contact with some religious offenders in my work to remember those quotes from the Good Book. In virtually every instance, it assisted me in passing on to the DA and judges involved to say that treatment was extremely unlikely to be successful.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Nov 10, 2017, 10:45 PM

4. You enlightened me, so thanks!

"What are the chances of such a geek having a healthy belief system regarding sexuality"

None whatsoever.

Foundation For Moral Law? This man is so lacking in morals imo, and he probably doesn't recognize that either.

And so many -philias! I had no idea, but thanks for adding to my vocabulary!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronophilia
The term chronophilia was used by John Money to describe a form of paraphilia in which an individual experiences sexual attraction limited to individuals of particular age ranges.[1][2] The term has not been widely adopted by sexologists, who instead use terms that refer to the specific age range in question. An arguable historical precursor was Richard von Krafft-Ebing's concept of "age fetishism".[3]

Every day I think we can't get lower, and there we go.





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Response to babylonsister (Reply #4)

Fri Nov 10, 2017, 11:39 PM

9. Thanks, Buddy!

We are surely living in strange times. And people like Moore make these times far more dangerous. It's bad enough that they are found in our communities; they should never be in the US Senate -- or never again, as the case may be.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Nov 10, 2017, 11:55 PM

11. Well done, H2O Man!

Part of what finally drove me 100% away from any thought of ever returning to the organized religion I was raised on was people "who claim the moral authority to speak for “God,” and to judge others". If there ever was discovered a higher power in the Universe, it is the ultimate arrogance to claim to be among a select few that hears the "voice".

That issue, and rampant hypocrisy.

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Response to KY_EnviroGuy (Reply #11)

Sat Nov 11, 2017, 12:05 AM

12. Thanks!

many decades ago, when I started working in mental health, I remember my father warning me that people who insist they have personal conversations with "God" are dangerous. I've learned that those who believe they are "God" are, too.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sat Nov 11, 2017, 01:02 AM

13. Thanks for the insight into the psyche of Moore. He's a reprehensible MONSTER.

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Response to iluvtennis (Reply #13)

Sat Nov 11, 2017, 10:42 AM

16. Thank you.

He is indeed a monster. In a healthy society, he could never be considered as a proper candidate for any office, especially the US Senate. In fact, he would be incarcerated, or held in a mental institution. He lacks the capacity to benefit from treatment.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sat Nov 11, 2017, 01:50 AM

14. The turds among us

Roy boy is a real piece of work. It's the fact that a large swath of folks find him to be such a stand-up guy that makes my head swim. Same goes for herr drumpf. Many think he's a fine man, even a great leader. While others can see a carnival barker, televangelist, or any other variety of worm from 10 miles away. It's a great divide that seems to only grow wider. Thanks for your report!

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Response to shadowmayor (Reply #14)

Sat Nov 11, 2017, 10:50 AM

17. Right.

I generally enjoy looking at systems. But it is a corrupt and diseased system that provides opportunities for people like Trump and Moore to rise to power. In a sane society, such characters would be pitied at best, shamed for certain, and identified as "sick in the head." One of Dr. Stone's most important contributions is his book "The Anatomy of Evil," in which he uses the word "evil" in a non-religious sense. By his definition, it is accurate to call Trump, Moore, and their ilk evil. In both the spiritual and ethical sense, I think they are evil.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sat Nov 11, 2017, 01:55 AM

15. Holy Cow, H2O Man - this is a revelation! THIS in particular:

Moore convinced himself that two sentences from Romans, found in chapter 7, lines 17 and 20, identify the real cause: “It is no longer I who am doing this evil, but the sin living in me. ...And if I do what I don't want to do, it is not I who do it, but the sin which lives in me.” The more out of touch Moore becomes with the reality of his own disgusting self, the more those Feature 1 ideas convince him that it is his role to become a modern-day prophet from the Old Testicle. And, indeed, we see how that delusional self-concept – a man who claims the moral authority to speak for “God,” and to judge others – has translated into his behaviors throughout his adulthood.

OMG! I have been known to use a couple of Scripture passages to illustrate a point, but I never ran across Romans 7! Never got that far. You get as far as Paul's 1 Corinthians and you can easily wind up spending your entire academic career studying just that. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the quote in Romans is the source of justification for not taking responsibility For. What. One. Did. ! The Gospel of Blame-Game. That sounds like what a little kid does - who develops for him/herself an imaginary friend. Every time he/she misbehaves, it really wasn't him/her misbehaving. The imaginary friend did it!

Excellent, thought-provoking, and highly illuminating essay, H2O Man!

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Response to calimary (Reply #15)

Sat Nov 11, 2017, 10:55 AM

18. Thank you!

My maternal grandfather told me that, as a teenager, he was considering a career as a minister. Hence, he read the entire bible several times (which he recommended I do, as well). However, he said, he found so many of the "sins" in the Good Book fascinating, that he was determined to commit them himself. Years of discussing the bible, from cover to cover, with Pappy would fully prepare me to deal with the "religious" forensic clients I had that sought to justify their behaviors by scripture.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sat Nov 11, 2017, 11:07 AM

19. Excellent, thought-provoking essay.

Thank you H2O Man!

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Response to kentuck (Reply #19)

Sat Nov 11, 2017, 11:13 AM

20. Thank you!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sat Nov 11, 2017, 11:19 AM

21. Excellent read WaterMan

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Response to malaise (Reply #21)

Sat Nov 11, 2017, 04:10 PM

25. Thanks!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sat Nov 11, 2017, 11:38 AM

22. Another beautifully written essay....

.... so carefully thought out that even I understood it.

And so it goes. The evil that is the GOP is being revealed in so many ways. I'm glad when this stuff comes to light, but filled with despair for the years these men got away with it in the name of God.

A special place in hell waiting for Moore and Trump, and Ryan, Manafort, Flynn, etc. A list too long for me to write.

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Response to coeur_de_lion (Reply #22)

Sat Nov 11, 2017, 04:12 PM

26. Thank you!

It's interesting to consider how their ilk rises within our society. A healthy society would not allow for that to happen.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #26)

Sun Nov 12, 2017, 10:06 AM

29. Most of us are healthy

But enough unhealthy people can wreck a civilization.

I was reading deplorables comments on an article denouncing Trump/Russia. People were saying things like "Get over it he is the most powerful man in the world".

I realized that the reason they love him is because they are so happy that an asshole (like them) is finally in power. Someone can finally give voice to all of their hatred and frustration and they are loving it. He has normalized them. Made them acceptable. Even the pedophiles and rapists among them are finding themselves represented by someone who actually has the power to let them be who they are. They don't have to hide anymore.

We're all counting on Robert Mueller to set them straight. Remove the cancer from our country's body. And I believe he will. But once the balance of power is restored to sane people we all need to think hard about how many insane were exposed by Trump's rise to power.

How will we deal with them in the future?

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sat Nov 11, 2017, 11:38 AM

23. Great Piece, Sir!

Interesting read!!!

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Response to ProfessorGAC (Reply #23)

Sat Nov 11, 2017, 04:12 PM

27. Thank you.

I appreciate that!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sat Nov 11, 2017, 02:37 PM

24. Have any studies been done...?

That show women have similar pathologies toward younger boys or older men??

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Response to kentuck (Reply #24)

Sat Nov 11, 2017, 04:24 PM

28. Good question.

I'm sure that studies have approached that topic, but I really haven't had access to the good journals I did while I was working. (Retirement has a few downsides!)

From my limited experience in that area, I believe that those women usually tend to carry Borderline Personality Disorders. It's interesting: my younger son and I were discussing BPD earlier this afternoon. He noted that many view it as the female version of Anti-Social Personality Disorder. While true, there are other distinct, non-overlapping Feature 1 and 2 dynamics involved with each.

From the coverage I've seen of several of the female teachers with teen-aged boys cases in the news, almost all seem to involve BPD. I can only think of one that is likely an exception to the rule.

In terms of younger women (not girls) and older men, I can only speculate. Traditionally, of course, it wasn't openly frowned upon -- at least not publicly. Based upon several examples of this in my extended family, my guess is that my male relatives' social and financial status played a significant role. But, I suppose it might have been a shared interest in music or literature. But I doubt it like hell.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sun Nov 12, 2017, 10:14 AM

30. Was the reference to the "Old Testicle" on purpose, or did autocorrect come up with it? nt

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Response to tblue37 (Reply #30)

Sun Nov 12, 2017, 02:56 PM

31. Yes, but

I must credit John Lennon, circa 1966.

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