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guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
Tue Nov 21, 2017, 09:03 PM Nov 2017

Given the suddeness with which all of these revelations of sexual misconduct have come out,

and given what we already know about Russian interference in the 2016 election,

and given that Putin has an interest in keeping the US electorate and politicians distracted,

and given that sex is something that the US corporate media uses, along with violence, to sell their product to advertisers,

and taking nothing away from the fact that some men in positions of power abuse those positions to get what they want,

and not excusing in any way these terrible abuses, and the effect they have on the abused women,

is it possible that Russia is also behind all the secrets that are coming to light?

Is this a way for Putin to normalize the predatory behavior of Donald Trump, and perhaps a reminder from Putin to Trump about what may exist referring to Trump's own sexual misconduct?

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Given the suddeness with which all of these revelations of sexual misconduct have come out, (Original Post) guillaumeb Nov 2017 OP
normalize the predatory behavior of Donald Trump NCTraveler Nov 2017 #1
Agreed that Trump is causing governmental chaos. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #3
Yep. Full on Trump is Putin's asset. nocalflea Nov 2017 #28
No. B2G Nov 2017 #2
Ok. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #4
Hugely doubt Putin started, very sure Putin is pushing it Hortensis Nov 2017 #27
I agree with your premise, and your title. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #29
Reminds that Russia has never really had a non-authoritarian Hortensis Nov 2017 #36
True, they have never really had any type of democracy. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #38
If Putin did this, then it is backfiring. He underestimated American women. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #5
I am referring to the idea that this is causing more chaos, guillaumeb Nov 2017 #6
My point is that I don't think so, I think it is good. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #10
Male predation is the issue. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #19
Yes I agree this could have Putin's fingerprints on it. But it is going to backfire on him. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #20
ANd it is providing a major distraction from Mueller's investigation, the tax bill, and Amaryllis Nov 2017 #55
Exactly. eom guillaumeb Nov 2017 #59
Yes. Kingofalldems Nov 2017 #7
Simply wondering. eom guillaumeb Nov 2017 #8
I was referring to the post ordering you to 'stop this'. Kingofalldems Nov 2017 #9
Are you really suggesting B2G Nov 2017 #11
Suggesting that Russia has hacked America. Kingofalldems Nov 2017 #12
There is a huge difference B2G Nov 2017 #15
Speaking only for myself, guillaumeb Nov 2017 #16
Ab So Fucking Lutely Stinky The Clown Nov 2017 #13
I feel that the accusations are true. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #17
It certainly is possible. Demsrule86 Nov 2017 #14
And it says nothing about the guilt of the agressors, guillaumeb Nov 2017 #18
They don't need conventional war which hasn't been used to wage a successful a war Demsrule86 Nov 2017 #25
There was reporter on Chris Hayes who said they were working on Rose story since 2010. Hoyt Nov 2017 #21
This is a complicated matter. Are the women truthful . . . . . ? Stinky The Clown Nov 2017 #24
As always, excellent points and analysis. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #31
One of my points was about taking advantage of opportunity. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #30
I don't believe Putin's behind this. Denzil_DC Nov 2017 #22
It seems as if this backlash against sexual misconduct has another purpose meow2u3 Nov 2017 #23
Will this backlash be followed by a counter back lash? guillaumeb Nov 2017 #32
Is the Pope Catholic? meow2u3 Nov 2017 #34
Usually. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #35
Clearly. It can't at all possibly be.... vi5 Nov 2017 #26
But could Putin be taking advantage of this? guillaumeb Nov 2017 #33
One set wish was to cause chaos.....they can check that one off the list ! OnDoutside Nov 2017 #37
A continuing operation? guillaumeb Nov 2017 #39
Without a doubt. They know Trump won't do anything in OnDoutside Nov 2017 #56
You don't believe in the massive coincidence theory? hay rick Nov 2017 #40
The Bill Cosby case, and many others. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #43
Critical mass-ively convenient distraction... hay rick Nov 2017 #53
The GOP needs a distraction, guillaumeb Nov 2017 #54
Of course because it certainly couldnt be because women are tired of being used justiceischeap Nov 2017 #41
Not necessarily behind it, guillaumeb Nov 2017 #44
This post is an insult to all the brave people who have come forward oberliner Nov 2017 #42
If you are determined to find an insult, you have that right. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #45
I am sure Russian operatives exist oberliner Nov 2017 #47
We agree on that. And I feeel that Putin could also be using this as another way guillaumeb Nov 2017 #48
Understood oberliner Nov 2017 #50
No, and I indicated that in my original post. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #51
Sadly, there are no doubt many many adults who were abused as kids/teens oberliner Nov 2017 #52
It's not a massive coordinated deluge madville Nov 2017 #46
I agree, but I also feel that Putin could be using this as another way to guillaumeb Nov 2017 #49
the only thing that matters is whether the accusations are true. nt TheFrenchRazor Nov 2017 #57
I absolutely believe Russia is leaking compromat to the media librechik Nov 2017 #58
Agreed. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #60
Would this be a question loyalsister Nov 2017 #61
Some might. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #64
You're talking about the Washington Post & NY Times with female sources JonLP24 Nov 2017 #62
Of course! They've hacked all the social media forums! Tatiana Nov 2017 #63
 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
1. normalize the predatory behavior of Donald Trump
Tue Nov 21, 2017, 09:06 PM
Nov 2017

I don’t think he wants to normalize anything about Trump. Trump is causing chaos and and leaving a void in world leadership that is giving Putin a stronger position.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
27. Hugely doubt Putin started, very sure Putin is pushing it
Wed Nov 22, 2017, 08:57 AM
Nov 2017

opportunistically now with intent to divide and destroy as much as possible.

It's obvious to me that the first Franken accusation was designed to provide cover for the Republican tax theft and would have been engineered by the Republicans. It exploded over all media as planned. CNN did its usual blanket coverage with that one issue pushing aside all others, not much different with MSNBC.

As social media exploded, though, for sure Russian agents already here would have been right on it, encouraging divisive and extremist conflicts on both the far right and, I'm sorry to say, the left, by revving up extremist feminist outrage.

It'd have been fun to listen to the conversations in those troll farms as they learned that single, unproven allegations of a kiss or a bottom pat could lead to shrill demands for resignation of a U.S. senator--of what most claim at least to be their own party! They must be very amused at joining in that one.

Russia is, overall, a very conservative country. Not long ago, in old fashioned marriages fathers ceremonially passed the stick they supposedly chastised their daughters with to the new husbands at the altar. Charming tradition.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
29. I agree with your premise, and your title.
Wed Nov 22, 2017, 02:35 PM
Nov 2017

Putin recognizes opportunities and responds to them. And given the authoritarian nature of Russia, and its leaders, countermeasures are not as effective.

What happened to the musicians of Pussy Riot is a example to all Russians of how dissent is strictly regulated.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
36. Reminds that Russia has never really had a non-authoritarian
Wed Nov 22, 2017, 07:43 PM
Nov 2017

government. I've read that, before the authoritarian revolution they call communist, absolute authoritarian secular and religious leaders were joined together, as far as the people were concerned, as one unified authority that required strict obedience in this life and the next.

The brief attempt to establish a real democracy in the 1990s doesn't count, of course. As you say, countermeasures would not be nearly as effective. Strong man Putin and his plan to expand to the SovUn's former borders are hugely popular.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
38. True, they have never really had any type of democracy.
Wed Nov 22, 2017, 08:23 PM
Nov 2017

And the Czar also had a secret police force to control expression.

Irish_Dem

(45,640 posts)
5. If Putin did this, then it is backfiring. He underestimated American women.
Tue Nov 21, 2017, 09:08 PM
Nov 2017

We are quite different from most of the other women on the planet.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
6. I am referring to the idea that this is causing more chaos,
Tue Nov 21, 2017, 09:09 PM
Nov 2017

and more issues of trust for government and US institutions.

Irish_Dem

(45,640 posts)
10. My point is that I don't think so, I think it is good.
Tue Nov 21, 2017, 09:12 PM
Nov 2017

And it is about male predators, not the government.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
19. Male predation is the issue.
Tue Nov 21, 2017, 10:06 PM
Nov 2017

But Putin might also be willing to add fuel to the fire by feeding information to right wing bloggers.

Cyber-warfare.

Irish_Dem

(45,640 posts)
20. Yes I agree this could have Putin's fingerprints on it. But it is going to backfire on him.
Tue Nov 21, 2017, 10:18 PM
Nov 2017

My .02.
It will be a win for women.
Which is a win for the country.

Amaryllis

(9,523 posts)
55. ANd it is providing a major distraction from Mueller's investigation, the tax bill, and
Wed Nov 22, 2017, 10:53 PM
Nov 2017

Trump loading up federal courts with conservative activist judges.

Kingofalldems

(38,361 posts)
9. I was referring to the post ordering you to 'stop this'.
Tue Nov 21, 2017, 09:12 PM
Nov 2017

Russians have hacked America so yes it's true.

 

B2G

(9,766 posts)
15. There is a huge difference
Tue Nov 21, 2017, 09:28 PM
Nov 2017

Between election interference and email hacking and suggesting Russians are behind these allegations of misconduct.

Are you saying that this is all drummed up by the Kremlin? I've seen you hint at this before, so why don't you clarify your stance here? Spell It out for me.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
16. Speaking only for myself,
Tue Nov 21, 2017, 10:01 PM
Nov 2017

I am not suggesting that the Russians instigated this, but that they might be supplying information to bloggers to keep things boiling, so to speak. It would not be unreasonable to suspect that Russian operatives might be looking for things to divide US citizens.

Stinky The Clown

(67,697 posts)
13. Ab So Fucking Lutely
Tue Nov 21, 2017, 09:24 PM
Nov 2017

That is not to say that some of the accusations are true. Maybe much more than some.

But this has been weaponized.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
17. I feel that the accusations are true.
Tue Nov 21, 2017, 10:02 PM
Nov 2017

But, as you said, perhaps the Russians are weaponizing the matter.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
18. And it says nothing about the guilt of the agressors,
Tue Nov 21, 2017, 10:04 PM
Nov 2017

just the willingness of Putin to do what he can in the war with the US. Russia cannot compete militarily, but cyber-warfare and political dirty tricks are a relatively low cost way of weakening an opponent.

Demsrule86

(68,352 posts)
25. They don't need conventional war which hasn't been used to wage a successful a war
Wed Nov 22, 2017, 08:38 AM
Nov 2017

anywhere in a long time. Cyber war is one way of waging war in the 21st century and the Russians have mastered it. We have a very poor internet infrastructure, and it is slow, old and can not be made secure in my opinion We need a massive overhaul ... and a huge outlay of resources...sort of like the space program. We have leftovers from the cold war in the military always fighting the last battle. Trump is too stupid to understand what is going on and only cares about enriching himself...and Putin has something on him or has promised him lots of money which is the only thing Trump cares about in my opinion. I believe Trump has betrayed this country with Russia. I am hoping that Mueller finds something so compelling that Trump will be forced to resign as I don't believe the GOP will get rid of him...they are willing to accept the worst riffraff in order to retain power...traitors, white nationalist and of course pedophiles to name but a few of the deplorables that make up the modern Republican Party.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
21. There was reporter on Chris Hayes who said they were working on Rose story since 2010.
Tue Nov 21, 2017, 10:37 PM
Nov 2017

They couldn't get women to come forward, so they put it aside. Reporter said when Weinstein story broke, women started returning her calls.

I think we are blaming Russia for things caused by other factors.

Stinky The Clown

(67,697 posts)
24. This is a complicated matter. Are the women truthful . . . . . ?
Tue Nov 21, 2017, 11:03 PM
Nov 2017

Yes, I believe they are, for the most part. In fact, I outright disbelieve just one - Leeann Tweeden.

Here's a complicater. Conyers did what many people/organizations do - they settle things for cash to save time, lots more money in defense, embarrassment, and a host of other reasons (That is a general statement, not specific to the Conyers matter except as background.

Is Conyers guilty of something? Maybe so. I absolutely stipulate that he could be. But that is not germane to my point.

Consider this: if all was righteous, how is it that a slimy right wing hacktivist got the materials and gave them to a news organization? That's a bridge too far for me. THAT is where it is weaponized.

Look at the Franken thing. There is good evidence the woman was plotting this for a while. There is good evidence she was in contact with right wing "command and control" who may well be running the operation. It is a fact he story morphed - juuuuust a little, but just enough - as the push back came and as facts became known.

How is it that Roger Stone knew it was going to happen before it did? How is it she discussed it with Hannity ahead of time? Someplace in here is where this got weaponized.

We need to be really wary of accepting things at face value.

Is Harvey Weinstein guilty? Almost certainly, even with a criminal trial.

Spacey? Again, almost certainly.

Moore? Ditto.

Cosby? Absolutely.

Franken? I have more doubts now than when this shit broke. Has anyone heard more from the second accuser?

Conyers? So far I really have doubts.

Charley Rose? Probably so.

Trump? Again, almost certainly.

But I can't help wonder when i see the preponderance of the accusations leveled against people who favor the left.

I also find myself saddened at the seeming absence of proportionality.

We have a pedophile being endorsed by the National Pussy Grabber while a man who maybe did a stupid thing with a joke photograph is made to hide and let things blow over.

Again, these are complicated matters. I suspect there are no simple answers and certainly no simple solutions.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
31. As always, excellent points and analysis.
Wed Nov 22, 2017, 02:42 PM
Nov 2017

My suggestion is that Russia is undoubtedly willing to take advantage of this situation, and they well may be doing so.

As to the accusers, and the accusations, they should be dealt with and judged as separate stories.

But along with the wave of stories, even sadder is that the victims obviously felt that coming forward would be useless, so all of these victims had to internalize what happened while the predators were free to commit more crimes.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
30. One of my points was about taking advantage of opportunity.
Wed Nov 22, 2017, 02:38 PM
Nov 2017

It is possible that Putin ordered the trolls to get to work on social media, just as it is possible that Russian trolls are combing the web for information.

But the first cause of the problem is predominantly male predation.

Denzil_DC

(7,188 posts)
22. I don't believe Putin's behind this.
Tue Nov 21, 2017, 10:44 PM
Nov 2017

I don't believe he's behind a lot of stuff people casually blame on Russia at the moment.

We've had a strong right-wing online and social media presence for years, and many tricksters who've gotten very good at propaganda, infiltration, etc. If you've been active online over the last decade or so, you've no doubt seen it in action, both in the US and the UK, where I'm from.

What I do believe is that Russian botnets can tap into and overlap with the right-wing networks and push things along by sheer weight of numbers.

There are some stories that originate from the Russian botnets, but not everything does.

meow2u3

(24,745 posts)
23. It seems as if this backlash against sexual misconduct has another purpose
Tue Nov 21, 2017, 10:49 PM
Nov 2017

I heard on the tube earlier that the massive backlash against sexual harassment (which I prefer to call sexually oriented bullying, or SOB) is part of a mass rebellion against bullies in general. Americans are sick of bullies getting away with bloody blue murder, to the point of intimidating their targets into silence--and we've had enough.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
32. Will this backlash be followed by a counter back lash?
Wed Nov 22, 2017, 02:44 PM
Nov 2017

Will the right attempt to frame this as left wing political correctness?

 

vi5

(13,305 posts)
26. Clearly. It can't at all possibly be....
Wed Nov 22, 2017, 08:54 AM
Nov 2017

..just that women are finally coming forward and feeling empowered to confront the type of bullshit they've been dealing with for decades.

Definitely not that. It's definitely Putin.

hay rick

(7,521 posts)
40. You don't believe in the massive coincidence theory?
Wed Nov 22, 2017, 08:29 PM
Nov 2017

To those who argue that women are suddenly feeling empowered to speak up...I wonder why the Bill Cosby business didn't have that effect.

hay rick

(7,521 posts)
53. Critical mass-ively convenient distraction...
Wed Nov 22, 2017, 10:15 PM
Nov 2017

from the "tax cuts and jobs" rape of the American people, the attack on net neutrality and the ongoing Mueller investigation... to say nothing about promoting the false equivalence of a pedophile with somebody who may or may not have inappropriately touched a woman's ass.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
54. The GOP needs a distraction,
Wed Nov 22, 2017, 10:18 PM
Nov 2017

but it does not help when Democratic politicians furnish one. And yes, the GOP has their own standard, their own low bar, but it still does not excuse this behavior.

justiceischeap

(14,040 posts)
41. Of course because it certainly couldnt be because women are tired of being used
Wed Nov 22, 2017, 08:29 PM
Nov 2017

and abused in oh so many ways.

It couldn’t be because this country elected a self-professed serial assaulter.

It’s gotta be Russia behind this.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
42. This post is an insult to all the brave people who have come forward
Wed Nov 22, 2017, 08:36 PM
Nov 2017

This is more important than politics.

This is about changing the culture and no longer allowing this heinous behavior to continue without consequence.

To say "Russia and Putin" is behind this is an embarrassment to our side.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
45. If you are determined to find an insult, you have that right.
Wed Nov 22, 2017, 09:30 PM
Nov 2017

But if we accept that Putin was eager to influence US elections, and if we accept that Russian trolls and bots were very active prior to the election, why should or would we assume that these Russian operatives magically ceased to exist after the election?

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
47. I am sure Russian operatives exist
Wed Nov 22, 2017, 09:34 PM
Nov 2017

I am also sure that people are coming forward with stories about sexual harassment of their own volition.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
48. We agree on that. And I feeel that Putin could also be using this as another way
Wed Nov 22, 2017, 09:35 PM
Nov 2017

to divide and confuse people.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
50. Understood
Wed Nov 22, 2017, 09:39 PM
Nov 2017

I certainly believe that the right-wingers (and probably Russian elements as well) are using this information to their political advantage. However, that does not make the accusations any less serious.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
51. No, and I indicated that in my original post.
Wed Nov 22, 2017, 09:41 PM
Nov 2017

I cannot imagine what it must be like for someone to hold that in, speaking of abuse, for many years. Imagine a 14 year old keeping silent for 40 years.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
52. Sadly, there are no doubt many many adults who were abused as kids/teens
Wed Nov 22, 2017, 09:45 PM
Nov 2017

Who have remained silent about it for decades (and continue to do so).

madville

(7,397 posts)
46. It's not a massive coordinated deluge
Wed Nov 22, 2017, 09:32 PM
Nov 2017

There are just a bunch of perverted men out there and women are finally brave enough to come forward in these numbers.

librechik

(30,663 posts)
58. I absolutely believe Russia is leaking compromat to the media
Thu Nov 23, 2017, 12:07 PM
Nov 2017

in order to promote chaos and undermine our culture.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
60. Agreed.
Fri Nov 24, 2017, 06:01 PM
Nov 2017

Taking advantage of an already divided electorate at a low cost to Russia. Much cheaper than spending a trillion dollars a year on a war machine.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
64. Some might.
Fri Nov 24, 2017, 08:05 PM
Nov 2017

But since both have been exposed, it heats up the discussion on both sides. I do not feel Putin sees the GOP as allies, only as tools.

JonLP24

(29,322 posts)
62. You're talking about the Washington Post & NY Times with female sources
Fri Nov 24, 2017, 07:02 PM
Nov 2017

I highly doubt Russia has much to do with it.

Tatiana

(14,167 posts)
63. Of course! They've hacked all the social media forums!
Fri Nov 24, 2017, 07:05 PM
Nov 2017

They know the secrets of many famous and powerful people. They regularly recruit cyber criminals to hack for them in exchange for dropping criminal prosecutions.

It almost feels like death by a thousand cuts. And we are helpless to defend ourselves because all three branches of our government are compromised.

Dear Lord.

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