Essentia Health fires 69 employees over refusal to get flu shots

[Thor_MN]

http://www.fox9.com/news/essentia-health-fires-69-employees-over-refusal-to-get-flu-shots

"KMSP) - Essentia Health announced it has fired 69 employees who refused to get a flu shot.

According to the Duluth-based health system, of their 13,900 employees, 99.5 percent of them complied and got the flu shot, leaving 69 employees who did not get the flu shot. The deadline to get the shot was Monday.

If they didn't get the shot by that deadline, their employment was terminated. "

If you are going to be an anti-vax idiot, why would you get a job in a hospital?

[mcar]

1. This happens every year

Hard to disagree. Why keep on healthcare workers who risk the health of their patients?

[ileus]

2. We lost a PRN in our dept for failure to get his flu shot.

We were required to have it by 10/31 at our hospital.

[brooklynite]

52. Just a conpiracy by Big Flu...

[Calculating]

3. Good

Can't have anti-vax idiots working in a hospital and spreading disease.

[still_one]

4. That is exactly the reason

[RobinA]

91. Not Getting A Flu Shot

does not make one anti-vax, it just makes one anti-flu shot

[Drahthaardogs]

94. Or stupid if you work in a hospital

That would be like me being anti respirator even though I work on Superfund sites.

[Codeine]

5. I have a needle phobia.

I'd still do it, but it's a bit terrifying.

[Retrograde]

11. Barely felt mine

The nurse giving the shot yesterday was quick: I felt the alcohol swap, then that was about it. I found that looking away and talking helps.

[gristy]

12. I look away too. Every time. I have no idea as to the length of the needle.

And I'm a diabetic!

[brush]

15. I took one a couple of months ago and didn't even know the pharmacist had done it as it was so...

quick and painless.

I didn't get one last year and got a horrible case of the flu, it lasted 3 weeks

This year I said, never again.

[Ilsa]

16. Some years, they have the nasal spray vaccine.

But it can be less effective, I've heard. Plus, you are getting an attenuated virus, so you might feel achy or even feverish.

I hate getting shots, but I hate having respiratory diseases more.

[moriah]

49. The 2017-2018 nasal vaccine isn't recommended per CDC.

Either the effectiveness of the method is becoming problematic or this year's batch sucked, but here's what they've got on their page:

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/flushot.htm

CDC recommends use of injectable influenza vaccines (including inactivated influenza vaccines and recombinant influenza vaccines) during 2017-2018. The nasal spray flu vaccine (live attenuated influenza vaccine or LAIV) should not be used during 2017-2018.

Sorry, needlephobes...

[Horse with no Name]

114. If you work acute care, that isn't an option

it is a live virus and can cause shedding of the virus which can harm patients as well.

[USALiberal]

6. Science wins again! +1000! n/t

[GulfCoast66]

7. Reminds me...need to get mine.

[hatrack]

8. Good!

.

[Doreen]

9. I got my first flu shot a couple of months ago. A lot of you talked me int it.

I will get them every year now.

[TomSlick]

10. Sorry, no sympathy.

If you work in a hospital, nursing home, etc. you must have your flu shot. People's lives depend on it.

A nurse with a needle phobia or religious scruples against vaccinations? You're kidding right?

[bluestarone]

13. sorry but

this is wrong. if they can force them they can force ALL!! Give me a break this is not democratic thinking here. force a person to do something JUST ISN'T RIGHT

[brush]

17. Get real. The flu can kill. Hospital workers should not subject patients to possibly getting the...

flu from them.

The requirement is just common sense.

[bluestarone]

22. should they forceyou

[brush]

23. Absolutely. Why would anyone who works in a hospital want to take a chance of passing on the flu...

to patients and other there?

[bluestarone]

25. because although slight

some have major reaction to it they cannot with 100% confidence deny this

[brush]

29. Understood, but those people, unfortunately because of the risk of contagion should not work in...

a hospital.

You can't possibly think that's a good idea.

The flu can kill people.

[bluestarone]

32. except they wouldn't know until

AFTER the flu shot if they are the one to have this reaction????

[BoneyardDem]

108. baloney.....nurses, HCA, CNA, MA etc already had the shots during their training and externiships

with the vast majority having had shots prior to employment as part of their required pre employment education. They already know if there exists any allergic reactions prior to being hired. Have you even contemplated looking up the allergic reaction rate of those health care providers getting the flu shot?

[CreekDog]

33. they have a medical and religious exception process

these are folks that either didn't ask for one or didn't get one

[bluestarone]

36. you don't get it

you don't know if you would be the one to get a bad reaction to it until it's too late? THEN WHAT?

[KT2000]

41. everyone who workds in medical situations

knows in advance that getting a flu shot is a requirement. For those who do not want to take the risk they would have to find a different type of employment.
Flu shots are required for those in medical programs at the local college because they are in contact with patients. It's about the patients.

People are free to not get the shot, just not work in the medical field if they don't want it.

How about this - you are scheduled for surgery and check in to the hospital. The admitting clerk is coming down with the flu and he/she goes home after checking you in. You have your surgery and then after, while you are recovering, you come down with the flu. There could be serious complications for you.

[Horse with no Name]

116. Not to mention that they cannot enroll in school unless they have it

so I expect the ones that dropped dead from it didn't make it out of nursing/radiography/respiratory therapy school.

So it is reasonable to assume that everyone has been exposed to the shot at least once.

[CreekDog]

42. YOU HAVE BROUGHT NO KNOWLEDGE, STUDY, EXPERTISE OR RESEARCH TO THIS TOPIC

you're just blabbing.

WHY ARE YOU TALKING ON THIS SUBJECT?

if you want to challenge experts BRING EXPERTISE!

you're just blabbing.

[bluestarone]

45. this

http://althealthworks.com/9054/105-seniors-died-after-getting-this-high-dose-flu-shot-yet-it-is-still-on-the-marketyelena/

[CreekDog]

47. 105 died from the flu shot?

let's answer that question first.

also, 105 out of how many and how soon? and congratulations on your googling. how many posts in this thread devoid of any knowledge did you post before even providing one link?

Myth: Vaccines can make you sick.

This myth is most common with the flu vaccine. Doctors often hear, “I got the flu shot and I got sick,” says Pedro Piedra, a professor of molecular virology and microbiology and of pediatrics at the Baylor College of Medicine.

The flu shot can’t cause the flu, though, and getting sick soon after receiving a flu shot is probably a coincidence, he says. Most influenza vaccines are delivered in the fall and early winter. “That’s when we have the highest rate of respiratory viruses circulating and causing mischief,” Piedra notes.

The shot may spark some mild and temporary flulike symptoms, a sign, says Swanson, that the vaccine is effectively building immunity.

None of the other vaccines approved by the Food and Drug Administration can cause the illnesses they protect against, either. But they can have temporary side effects, such as a mild fever or swelling at the injection site.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/4-common-myths-about-vaccines/2017/11/17/422093b4-b42b-11e7-a908-a3470754bbb9_story.html?utm_term=.c0244bc2dc7a

[bluestarone]

51. hey i'm just saying

NOTHING is as safe as they make it out to be or do you trust everything they tell you? and then it's there way or the hi-way Sounds like more how the Repubs think

[CreekDog]

54. Nothing is perfect, tell us which is closer? *YOU* OR SCIENCE

and based on that WHO should we trust more on this topic YOU? or SCIENCE?

if everyone here trusted science MORE than the kind of ignorance you're peddling, we'd all be a hell of a lot safer.

[bluestarone]

58. tell you the truth i'm not

pushing anything here except my right to think. and seems like that bothers quit a bit.This is a dicussion forum and SCIENCE like YOU say CANNOT guarantee 100% no reaction! from the flu shot

[CreekDog]

60. so you read one article about one study and think that makes you more informed

than if you accepted all the valid studies? (primary sources, not secondary by the way)

if you think that makes you smarter or more informed, you don't know what you're talking about.

but you pretty much established that from the start.

by the way, do you go to doctors?

WHY?

YOU'RE TOO SMART FOR THAT. We're the sheeple going to the doctors, getting vaccinated, accepting scientific conclusions MORE than cranky crackpots using 1% of that science and 99% of their own head stories to say their ideas are better.

But we're the dumb ones.

You have fun now.

[bluestarone]

61. i'm 70 and get my shot every year

but the problem i have is people being forced or lose there job! I realize they can quit but after 20=30 years hard to do that

[ProfessorGAC]

85. Depends On Kind of Job, No?

A scientist here! Forcing me? You have a point! Forcing a health care provider? You don't!
And you "reaction" argument? Consider it an occupational risk.

[brush]

68. Hard as it may sound, protecting the hundreds of people in a hospital is more important than one...

person refusing to take a flu shot.

[Doodley]

82. Who really knows what the long-term impact of all these vaccines has on our immune systems.

[womanofthehills]

69. Actually, SERVA (shoulder injury from vaccines is increasing)

Why Are Cases of Shoulder Injuries From Vaccines Increasing?
Last year when I posted info on SERVA, some DU'ers said they might have it.

Elisabeth Cassayre got a shot at her local pharmacy, and the pain in her arm began that night. It refused to go away. Days, then months passed as she couldn’t lift her right arm, couldn’t hang up clothes, couldn’t pick things up. “I remember thinking: I’ll never be able to make an apple pie for my grandchildren,” says the retired schoolteacher.

Doctors now have a name for Cassayre’s condition: shoulder injury related to vaccine administration, or SIRVA, caused by a vaccine injected too high up on the arm. The prolonged pain and stiffness of SIRVA is distinct—in other words, much worse—than typical soreness from shots.

While very rare and still little-known, SIRVA cases settled in the government’s so-called vaccine injury court have shot up in recent years. Under US law, all vaccine injury cases come before the Office of Special Masters of the US Court of Federal Claims, rather than the usual state or federal courts. Since 2011, the court has ruled to compensate 112 patients for SIRVA, with more than half those cases in the past year, according to an analysis in the Wall Street Journal.

A month ago, the government proposed an obscure rule change that has big implications for SIRVA. SIRVA would be added to the Vaccine Injury Table, a list of known vaccine complications for which getting compensation is easier and faster. The addition of SIRVA—after years of review—is confirmation that the scientific evidence is valid and the suffering of victims is real.

https://www.wired.com/2015/09/cases-shoulder-injuries-vaccines-increasing/

[Doodley]

83. Even medical consensus can get it wrong. We may not know the true effect of over-medication

vaccinations for many decades.

[procon]

62. LOL - you've been scammed, that's a quack website.

Check your source, the owner is a charlatan who promotes 'quack treatments', he has no background in medicine or science, he's just a conman peddling snake oil and magic pills based on his crackpot pseudoscience and crazy anti-vax conspiracies.

[Revanchist]

118. But his work has been cited on Mercola's website!

And we all know how reliable he is!

[kcr]

53. Then don't work at a hospital if you're that worried about it. Easy n/t

[moriah]

55. And it's a risk healthcare workers sadly have to take, for themselves and ...

... their patients.

Almost all state nursing boards have regulations about immunizations. A nurse practitioner I know who had measles as a child still didn't test out with high enough of an antibody titer and had to have a total of three doses of measles vaccine before her titers showed her officially immune.

And given that we've had measles outbreaks here because of churches that have a lot of homeschool anti-vaccine people having people come back from mission trips with it and spread it among the non-immune.... she's glad they didn't just go by her childhood history as she could have ended up with it as a 55 year old woman.

For influenza, the only obstacle that really can't be overcome is a prior history of Gullian-Barre Syndrome. There are recombinant vaccines that are vegan, and the CDC has a flowchart about how to handle varying degrees of egg allergies if the only shots available *are* egg-based...

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/egg-allergies.htm

[Thor_MN]

95. You are the one that does not get it. If you have a reaction, them you stop getting flu shots

and find a job that doesn't involve posing a risk to hospital patients.

Your seemingly major crisis solved.

[Nevernose]

37. Take a Benadryl before the shot

Problem solved.

[womanofthehills]

63. Problem is not solved -

A VERY VERY small percentage of people have a bad reaction to the flu shot. If you have a severe reaction, there is a Dept of Health Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. Some hospitals will let nurses opt out of the flu shot if they wear a mask.

In very rare cases, a vaccine can cause a serious problem, such as a severe allergic reaction. In these instances, the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP) may provide financial compensation to individuals who file a petition and are found to have been injured by a VICP-covered vaccine. Even in cases in which such a finding is not made, petitioners may receive compensation through a settlement.

https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation/index.html



For the vast number of vaccines that are given, only a tiny percentage of people are injured & compensated. Here is the compensation chart posted by the government Vaccine-Injury Compensation Program. However, the number is getting higher each year and one would hope it would be going in the other direction. In 2017, the program paid out $282,010,851.21 in award money according to their below report.

>

https://www.hrsa.gov/sites/default/files/hrsa/vaccine-compensation/VICPmonthlyreportNov2017.pdf

[Nevernose]

67. Thats med-mal payouts and means very little

Plus your own link says the side effect from influenza shots is severe allergic reaction. That’s easily dealt with beforehand, especially if the shot is administered in the hospital.

Some of the childhood vaccines have been linked to genetic diseases, and accusations have been made about the flu shot and GBS, but nothing conclusive.

If one is unable to safely perform one’s job duties, perhaps one should not be doing that job. There’s a reason narcoleptics and epileptics usually can’t get CDLs. It’s dangerous to other people.

[womanofthehills]

70. Actually, from what I've read the childhood vaccines are much safer than the flu shots

the childhood vaccines have been around so long they have been perfected while the flu shots are made up new each year and there are only a few months to test them.

If you look at the websites of the hundred or so law firms that the government has ok'ed to work with the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program, here is the list of vaccine injuries most of them have on their sites. These are the specific injuries that the government will cover. i don't think I can post individual law firm sites because that might be prohibited on here. I know Guillain-Barre Syndrome is only about 2% of all the shots given according to the gov site.

Vaccine Injury Coverage Includes:

Guillain-Barré Syndrome (GBS)
Transverse Myelitis
Acute Disseminated Encephalomyelitis (ADEM)
Anaphylaxis
Anaphylactic Shock
Encephalopathy
Brachial Neuritis

Chronic Arthritis
Thrombocytopenic Purpura (ITP)
Paralysis
Intussusception
SIRVA
Shoulder Injuries
and More

[Nevernose]

73. Im still willing to argue

Because I am, naturally and as always completely correct

My wife, however, says that I’m always jaded and cynical, especially to everyone involved in a medical malpractice lawsuit. More specifically, I’ve been informed that I am just exceptionally bitter and cranky tonight. She’s always right: that’s simultaneously the best and worst thing about marrying someone smarter than you.

I just keep looking at the news and thinking about how stupid people are trying to elect a pedophile so that he can help billionaires steal working people’s money, and even if you show proof of all of it they say “we have alternative facts.” Then I think about that psycho just down the street from me who decided to shoot 600 people with a machine gun, the panicked phone calls from friends and family who work in adjacent buildings, the calls from friends soaked in other people’s blood. Incindiary ammunition aimed at the jet fuel tanks.

Hundreds of lives taken or wrecked. I know people who just went inside their house after the first round of funerals, waited a week, and then made their families hurt twice as bad because they couldn’t live with the survivors guilt. More than a thousand people killed in America since then and no one’s done shit. The gun nuts are so good at repeating the script the NRA has spent forty years perfecting, so good that they muddy up the issue just enough to make even small, sensible gun safety reforms impossible.

So I get depressed and wrapped up and anxious and soon I’m arguing with strangers about the proper way to apply a cost/problem analysis to the solution of things like influenza vaccines and gun violence.

Tl;dr. I’m in a weird mental space tonight. Very funky, but not P-Funk funky. Furious and helpless there's nothing I can do.

So: sorry i wasted your time.

[womanofthehills]

77. I know 2 people who were injured by vaccines so it made me do some research

If you like to argue, DU is your place . I get where you are coming from. I live outside of a small rural town and the hostility of the conservatives towards the liberals is growing like nothing I have even seen.

[Demsrule86]

101. Yes, you work in an industry with sick folks with compromised immune systems...get the shot or get

out.

[liberalhistorian]

106. Hell, yes! If they are health care workers

they are putting a lot of people in danger EVERY single day that they are on duty, ALL day. The flu is actually pretty dangerous for children, the elderly, the sick and those with compromised/weakened immune systems. Which is pretty much most patients. Even healthy people can die or have serious complications from the flu; I was one of them a few years ago. We tend to ascribe the word "flu" to any kind of sickness we feel or have, but that's completely inaccurate.

It is the height of selfishness for a medical worker to do this. There are times when the good of community MUST come before individuals, and this is one of them. Our extreme individualism has gone too far and is killing us.

[Horse with no Name]

115. you aren't forced

you have a choice of taking the shot or finding a new job.

[womanofthehills]

121. or in many hospitals, you can wear a mask

Many hospitals have religious and medical exemptions.

[Horse with no Name]

122. that option is going away due to the high rate of noncompliance

It is very difficult to wear a mask all day.
Pretty much the only options at our facility is a documented medical reason or a documented religious reason.

[Leith]

19. No... Just No

First of all, this is an employer, not the US government. A truck driver is required to have the correct license classification to have the job, for example. Would you consider it against a job applicant's rights to be fired for not keeping his or her license up to date? How about a pharmacist who refuses to dispense birth control or morning after pills to someone with a prescription?

Second, do you think it's a good idea for a hospital employee who has come down with the flu but is not yet showing symptoms (meaning: contagious) to tend to a patient who is fresh out of surgery? I sure as hell don't. One of the leading causes of death is infections that the victim got from being in the hospital.

The least that a civilized society can expect is for health care workers to keep themselves as healthy as possible - THAT IS JUST AND RIGHT.

[bluestarone]

21. should they force you?

[Hassin Bin Sober]

24. That's an interesting idea you have

I'm going to tell my employer they can't "force me" to come to work.

[Leith]

27. Force?

Nobody is being held down and made to endure a small needle jab.

There are requirements for many jobs, whether it's an advanced degree, ability to communicate, background check, certification, license, to name just a few.

This is nothing more than a requirement of being a health care worker. It is most likely in the contract: prevention against communicable diseases. And it's just good sense.

[Mariana]

31. They weren't forced.

They still haven't had the vaccine, so they weren't forced to get it, by definition.

[Skittles]

44. there are many jobs that don't require them to get a shot

perhaps they should work in those fields

[BoneyardDem]

107. Honestly...this is the most inane post on this thread

Your employers can force you to produce verification of claims you have made on a resume, for certain certifications and education. You might have to prove you can type 55WPM, you might have to prove that you are actually a State certified counselor. You might have to provide a valid social security card, CDL license, EMT certificate. Don't like the rules the employers established PRIOR to hire? Then move on. There is nothing outrageous or over the top in requiring a health care provider not be a source for illness, and sickness to a vunerable patient base.

[X_Digger]

112. They're not holding anyone down and injecting them by force.

It's a condition of employment, just like coming to work on time, or calling your supervisor when you're taking a sick day.

[Staph]

14. There's one good reason not to have a flu shot.

I'm a cancer survivor, currently undergoing chemo. I can't have a flu shot. I depend on the herd immunity of all of you other kind folks who get your shots regularly.

[MurrayDelph]

18. I haven't gone through chemo

but I am allergic to something in the flu shots (I became violently ill every time I was given one), so I am appreciative of those that get the shot, so I can also piggyback on the herd immunity.

(For the record, I am up-to-date on all my other vaccinations; it's only flu shots I have to avoid).

[TexasBushwhacker]

64. And it's patients like you that shouldn't be exposed

to health workers (or anyone) who has the flu. They put anyone with a compromised immune system at risk.

[lame54]

20. Aversion to flu shots and anti-vaxxers...

Are not the same thing

I don't get flu shots yet i am fully vaccinated

[GulfCoast66]

35. Wrong. The flu shot is a vaccine.

Just to a family of viruses that never stop evolving.

Your choice not to get one unless you want to work in a hospital. In which case not getting on will result in termination

[lame54]

48. Not the same thing...

The shots i got as a kid have prevented me from getting those specific diseases

Each year people get flu shots and still get flu
Each year people pass and don't get the flu

The consistency is not the same

Childhood vaccinations are a must
Flu shots - not so much

Not getting a flu shot does not make one an anti-vaxxer

[CreekDog]

59. Not getting the flu shot doesn't make one an anti-vaxxer, that's true

But saying stuff like you did does make one an anti-vaxxer.

But you think saying it about just one vaccine makes you special and informed.



Nah.

[womanofthehills]

65. Agreed - and "The flu vaccine may have a strange problem that US scientists can't fix"

But researchers are concerned about what appears to be a troubling trend: Repeated vaccinations against the flu might make the newest shot less effective than the last, Helen Branswell reports at Stat.

When researchers followed 328 households during the 2010-2011 flu season, they found — much to their surprise — that the only people who really seemed to benefit from immunization were the ones who hadn't gotten a flu shot the year before. These "unexpected findings ... require further study," the researchers wrote, in 2013.

A larger and more robust study, published last year in Clinical Infectious Diseases, added more evidence that the 2013 study was onto something important. Researchers followed more than 7,000 people for eight yearly flu seasons, and they learned people got the strongest protection against the flu only when they were vaccinated for the current season — and at no other time during the previous five years.

Considering that some vaccines require multiple doses to be effective, as Branswell notes, "the fact that repeated vaccination against flu might diminish rather than enhance the vaccine's protection is perplexing." But it's possible that "antibodies produced in year one may neutralize some of the vaccine in year two's shot before it can trigger a full immune response," she writes.

http://www.businessinsider.com/annual-flu-shots-may-lower-effectiveness-2015-11

[Mariana]

71. My measles vaccine didn't stop me from getting measles.

No vaccine is 100% effective.

[Laffy Kat]

78. Perhaps, but it could have kept you from dying from it.

That's the deal about the influenza vaccine. You may still get sick but you won't get as sick. It the difference of a few days of feeling achy and tired versus pneumonia.

[Mariana]

98. Don't get me wrong, I'm entirely pro-vaccine.

I'm trying to argue with the foolish implication that a vaccine that doesn't prevent 100% of recipients from contracting the disease isn't worth getting.

When an unvaccinated person brought measles to my town, I got sick, and so did one of my classmates (also vaccinated). Then herd immunity came into play, the virus had nowhere else to go, and our little epidemic ended with us two. That's a fantastic result, even though I had to be one of the exceptions that proves the rule that the vaccine works very well indeed.

[Thor_MN]

97. Influenza is not one disease - it is a grouping of diseases.

Therefore there are different shots, targeted at the viruses predicted to be active the next year. Sometimes the prediction is off and a different strain becomes the one that breaks out.

Mumps is mumps. Rubella is Rubella. Influenza A has around 144 different strains.

Now do you understand why the consistency is not the same?

All flu shots ARE vaccines. Being against them makes one against vaccines. Maybe there should be a term for those who only object to the flu vaccines, but in general, a lack of knowledge is what lumps them together with the people that object to all vaccines

Regardless of your thought process on flu shots, getting one is a requirement for working in a hospital setting. There are terms when you agree to do a job. If you are averse to the terms, you do not take the job. If you violate the terms, you lose your job, It's that simple.

[Beakybird]

26. I didn't get the flu shot

And then I got the Egyptian flu from my mummy.

[MarvinGardens]

28. There should be exceptions to those who have medically documented adverse reactions to the flu shot.

But I agree, no exceptions for just being anti-vax.

[Tess49]

50. The hospital I worked at allowed emplyess to wear a mask while at work, if the employee

had medical or religious reasons for not taking it. That's several months of wearing a mask. No thanks. I always took the shot.

[womanofthehills]

66. Univ of New Mexico Hospital has exceptions

for medical or religious reasons.

[Aristus]

30. Good riddance.

Get your vaccines or get out...

[madinmaryland]

38. My wife and her mother are highly allergic to the vaccine. As a doctor you should fucking know

better.

[Sentath]

56. Then they don't qualify to work there

And likely should avoid public facing positions.

[cwydro]

84. Lots of authoritarian types here - I find it curious.

[Kentonio]

86. If its a choice between a hard rule or lots of people unnecessarily dying..

Then yes, its better to be a little authoritarian sometimes. Medicine isn't an arena where personal choice and personal fads are ok. If people don't get their kids vaccinated, there's a chance that choice could condemn another child or vulnerable adult to an agonizing death or lifelong disability. With the flu jab, avoiding it could ensure an old person catches the illness that otherwise wouldn't and ends up dying.

This stuff isn't a game, real lives are at risk.

[cwydro]

89. I doubt anyone much cares what anyone else orders others to do on a message board.

I certainly don’t.

But lots seem to enjoy ordering people about -what words we can or cannot use, what subjects we should be posting about, how we should feel about stories in the news, etc. and on and on.

[Kentonio]

99. There's a difference between giving orders and expressing a strong opinion.

On an issue where a bad choice could literally lead to the deaths of others, it hardly seems unreasonable for people to do the latter.

[Demsrule86]

102. There some vaccines that are for that express purpose...but with all due respect. Your wife and

daughter to not have the right to put the health of sick people in the hospital with compromised immune systems at risk...sometimes you need to get a different job.

[Aristus]

125. I do know better. I also know that vaccine allergy is relatively rare, and that exceptions based on

them are perfectly appropriate.

If someone is just an anti-vaxxer, I kick 'em out. Deliberately making oneself a vector for disease transmission is unconscionable.

[womanofthehills]

123. Why - many hospitals will let employees wear masks

[Aristus]

128. That's the hospital's choice.

If payouts for lawsuits grow large enough, they'll change their tune.

Anyway, I can't control what hospitals do. I can control what goes on in my clinic. I already had two patients today refuse the flu vaccine for reasons other than allergy or they already had it. I told them they would probably feel happier and more comfortable with another primary care provider. They changed their tune pretty quickly. My patients are among the most vulnerable in our society. I'm not going to allow someone to expose them to a preventable disease if I can help it.

[egduj]

34. Maybe all 69 were allergic to eggs.

[madinmaryland]

39. My wife and her mother are highly allergic to the vaccine. That's why they don't take it.

[Leith]

40. Are They Health Care Workers?

If not, they are not part of the issue.

If they are, they have a good excuse.

[moriah]

46. There's been an egg-free recombinant vaccine out for 3 years...

Called Flublok.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/qa_flublok-vaccine.htm

Doesn't have a long shelf life so it's unlikely to be using harmful preservatives either.

[womanofthehills]

75. Flublok is interesting - no eggs, formaldehyde, thimerosal, latex, antiobiotics, no ..

flu virus either. So are they basically hinting that these are the ingredients of the other flu vaccines on the market. So instead of eggs, it looks like we have worms.

Pretty fascinating (science marches on) -

Flublok uses cells taken from the ovaries of fall armyworms in the pupal stage to crank out its active ingredient — a piece of the flu virus's outer coat. Conventional vaccines use the whole virus.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2013/01/18/169695011/a-worms-ovary-cells-become-a-flu-vaccine-machine

[CreekDog]

43. i understand that people think ignorant things

what i don't get is why they think they are convincing in any way.

(referring to a few comments in the thread that... :eyes )

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

72. I don't get the flu shot.

I'm 69 years old and in excellent health, and more to the point, I got the flu a bunch of times in my childhood. So I'm pretty confident in my immunity. I'm sure it's at least as good as the variable and uncertain immunity of the flu shot.

About 8 years ago during a particularly hysterical "EVERYONE MUST GET THE FLU SHOT IMMEDIATELY!!" outbreaks, I was working in a hospital. I politely declined the flu shot pointing out that I was in the category of people who needed to be last on the list (I was over 60), since the vaccine supply was limited.

Periodically here on DU during these annual EVERYONE MUST GET THE FLU SHOT diatribes, I get accused of being a non-symptomatic carrier of flu. Ummm, that's simply not a thing. There is simply no evidence at all of non-symptomatic carriers of flu. Luckily for everyone's peace of mind, I am no longer in the workforce at all.

Oh, and my job at the hospital did not involve direct patient contact.

[CreekDog]

74. Why would you think the flu you got 50-70 years ago confers immunity now when flu viruses mutate?

The fact that you think that nonsense means your opinion is nonsense and ignorant.

Oh and just because it's very convincing in your head doesn't mean it's based on facts. It just means you convinced yourself that your own thoughts are true.

Imagine that, you had a thought and you BRAVELY came to the conclusion that YOU WERE RIGHT! GROUNDBREAKING! GENIUS.

Without any knowledge or science involved.

[womanofthehills]

80. Lifelong protection against severe influenza - Childhood flu and you

The first influenza attack that a child suffers can affect the way that their lifelong immunity to the virus builds up. A wide range of influenza A virus subtypes infect humans. Subtype H5 belongs to HA group 1 (which also includes H1 and H2 subtypes), and subtype H7 belongs to HA group 2 (which also includes the H3 subtype). Gostic et al. found that birth-year cohorts that experienced first infections with seasonal H3 subtype viruses were less susceptible to the potentially fatal avian influenza H7N9 virus (see the Perspective by Viboud and Epstein). Conversely, older individuals who were exposed to H1 or H2 subtype viruses as youngsters were less susceptible to avian H5N1-bearing viruses. A mathematical model of the protective effect of this imprinting could potentially prove useful to predict the age distribution and severity of future pandemics.

Science, this issue p. 722; see also p. 706

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/354/6313/722

[HockeyMom]

88. Same here

I was a very sickly kid, and young adult. Mom used to say that every February I was going to get sick. True. Since we are both the same age, you too probably got the flu as a kid during the 1957 Pandemic. Did you get the flu during the 2009 Pandemic? I was working at an Elementary School then, which starting looking more like a Senior Center than a school. Kids were out sick. The younger teachers were out sick, but those of us over 50 weren't. Why? We had lived through that 1957 Pandemic and got immunity from that. Other posters can look that up. The CDC has admitted it. Mutates? Apparently not enough from 1957 to 2009. Immunity, not asymptomatic carriers.

I just don't catch the flu from people around me with. One February I came up from Florida to see my Daughter and Grandson. They all had the flu. My Grandson got his flu shot, still got it, and gave it to his parents. Ran myself ragged taking care of all of them. Never caught it myself. Was I the asymptomatic carrier to them? From 1,000 miles away? Geesch. My husband got the flu last June which went into pneumonia, despite getting both a flu shot and two pneumonia shots. To quote his doctor, "They don't always work". Did I give him pneumonia too?

Office Workers at Hospitals were fired also. Don't become a Health Care Worker? Patients themselves can refuse flu shot, or any other vaccines, but Office Workers can't?

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

103. I'm pretty sure I got the 1957 flu also known as the Asian flu.

I think I got the flu several times thereafter, but probably not in at least 50 years. I was likewise somewhat sickly as a child. The third of six children, and until I was seven we lived in a housing project for low income people. Lots of other kids. Back then I of course got measles, mumps, rubella, and probably chicken pox. I say probably to that last one because my mom told me that I was just a baby, less than a year old when my sister, only 18 months older, got it. She said the sister got the worst case she'd ever seen, though that perhaps that's what smallpox might have looked like. Sister had scars well into adulthood. Anyway, mom took me off to the family doctor and I was given a shot of gamma globulin, a relatively common thing back then, as an immune system booster. Apparently I got the symptoms but never broke out with the poxes.

It was the 2009 pandemic that the hospital was wanting employees to get the shot or sign a waiver, and as I recall people above some age were specifically requested by the CDC not to get the shot, so long as they were otherwise in good health, as the vaccine was in short supply.

What is largely understood by most people is that in the 1918 flu epidemic, the reason that older adults very rarely got it, was because some fifty years earlier there had been a flu epidemic of the same kind of flu, and so they were almost to a person immune.

Another thing that isn't taken into consideration is that today the single best public health measure is vastly more common than it was a hundred years ago. Handwashing. With soap. A hundred years ago a lot of people didn't even have running water in their homes. Handwashing was less commonly practiced.

The up side of your family all getting the flu earlier this year is that now they've got a stronger immunity to future flu events.

The John Berry book The Great Influenza is one I cannot recommend strongly enough. It's about the 1918 epidemic and includes good information on the state of medicine in this country at that time. The one thing people should know about that epidemic was that our government, against the direct and specific advice of medical experts, kept on putting young men drafted as soldiers into overcrowded camps with primitive sanitation facilities, and then loaded them onto overcrowded boats to go off to fight The Great War. THAT'S how and why that epidemic spread so far and became so deadly.

[Laffy Kat]

76. At the HMO I work for..

They HIGHLY recommend flu shots but there is an out if you don't want to: you have to sign a refusal and wear a mask while treating all patients. Some employees chose to do that.

[secondwind]

79. I have a niece in Miami with two beautiful little girls, ages five and two. She is a rabid anti-vax.

[secondwind]

81. I have a niece in Miami with two beautiful little girls, ages five and two. She is a rabid anti-vax.

[Vinca]

87. A health care worker must get a flu shot for the safety of their patients.

If you're anti-vax you should be in another profession that doesn't include human contact.

[HockeyMom]

104. A Billing Clerk is now a Health Care Worker?

Who are their patients? Their computers? Tell me what occupation doesn't include human contact of some sort. Even people who work in a office environment have contact with other office workers.

[Vinca]

105. Then I guess they should opt to get the vaccination.

Do billing clerks use the hospital cafeteria? Do they occasionally walk the halls going to and from their offices? I used to be an anti-flu vaccine person, too. Then I got it and was so ill and had such a high temperature I started to worry about dying . . . when I was lucid. And I was a healthy person at the time. Imagine how a flu outbreak would affect a hospital full of sick people.

[HockeyMom]

109. Do Hospital VISTORS use cafeterias?

Do they walk the halls? Sit in lobbies and waiting rooms? There are far more visitors in hospitals and nursing homes than employees. Would you demand every visitor show proof of their flu shot? Sorry, you cannot visit your loved one in the hospital unless you can prove you have had your flu shot? Does that apply to ER AND Intensive Care Family Members? Sorry you cannot see your Loved One who has had a Heart Attack unless you show your flu shot vaccination record? Deny that and hospitals will have major law suits; employees nothing in comparison.

My elderly, retired husband gets his flu shot every year. One year he was given a card which said this is your PROOF of your vaccination. Carry it on your PERSON at all times. His reaction? Be happy I even got a vaccination. Don't ask me to carry around proof of it for the "Flu Police". The card went into the trash. Is this the kind of society you want?

My husband is a Republican. I am a Democrat. He gets all his Senior vaccinations. I don't. Yet we both agree that this should be a matter of personal choice. Neither of us has the right to force this on each other as a married couple. Imagine that? Something both Republicans and Democrats agree on. lol

[Vinca]

110. Okay, okay, okay. Chill. If you want to die of the flu it's your choice.

I only hope you and others would be considerate of your fellow human beings. Most don't want your germs and Mother Nature doesn't distinguish between Republicans and Democrats.

[HockeyMom]

111. If I do not have the flu

I cannot give it to anyone else. Same as I cannot catch or infect others with measles, mumps, or chicken pox, without being vaccinated for them since having those diseases gives lifetime immunity.

Given that I haven't had the flu in 20 or 30 years (as with other poster my age), there must be something else going on? Let science investigate why not. They won't because that won't sell mass flu shots.

[Vinca]

117. You can be asymptomatic, have the virus and then become ill.

If you visit your sick aunt in the meantime, she could be a goner. Oh, well. That's the price of being related to an anti-vax person. I guess it goes without saying you haven't had the pneumonia vaccinations recommended for older people. Good luck.

[HockeyMom]

120. Yep

Since I am asymptomatic to the flu and pneumonia I gave both those to my husband, who got his flu shot and pneumonia vax. I must have also given him shingles too because I didn't get My shingles vax. I will leave you with a quote from his doctor concerning all 3 vaccinations."They aren't 100% effective"

[Vinca]

124. And I'll leave you with a hope you stay well.

Shingles, by the way, cannot be passed from person to person. It's a dormant virus in your body that was planted there if you had chickenpox.

[HockeyMom]

129. Your statement shows how much you know about Shingles

Shingles is not contagious. It is only contagious while the rash is oozing and then only for people who haven't had chicken pox who touch the rash. For those who have had chicken pox, touching the rash won't given them shingles, OR chicken pox AGAIN.

BTW, my "anti-vaxxer" 32 your old SIL, 38 year old daughter. and her 34 year old GF, all had Shingles because at their age "woo" doctors never recommended the vax for them, and insurance won't pay for young adults to get it. DEMAND IT!

At least do your research and know what you are talking about and what is and isn't contagious, and what your CDC recommends. You cannot make your case if you do not know what your are talking about. Take that from an "anti-vaxxter" Old Lady who should be dead already from all these deadly diseases.

[Vinca]

130. It seems we're both correct.

https://www.medicinenet.com/is_shingles_contagious/article.htm

My physician told me, when I had it, that it wasn't contagious and cases other than originating in people who had chickenpox as a child were very rare.

[Lee-Lee]

90. If you dont want to get the shot dont take a job in health care

It’s that simple. Some things come with the job.

If your scared of the flu shot or have a bad reaction to it you shouldn’t seek a job in health care.

If you are scared of heights you shouldn’t take a job as a roofer.

If guns scare you then you shouldn’t take a job in law enforcement.

If you hate kids you shouldn’t take a job in teaching.

If you are scared of swimming you shouldn’t take a job as a lifeguard.

It’s not that hard a concept. People acting like these folks are victims of an evil employer or being forced to do something don’t have a grasp of basic concepts like minimum job qualifications- if they job requires you get a flu shot, you get a flu shot.

[steve2470]

119. totally agree

Even if you're not a front-line medical professional, your flu virus can infect others. You're in the same hospital or same building. You should get the vaccine. I had to get tested for Hepatitis C despite the fact I was 99.9999999% sure I did not have it (I did not). It sucked but it was part of the job and was based on a rational reason.

[dembotoz]

93. If u work in healthcare u need to protect the vulnerable

U just do....
Or make a job change

[Iggo]

96. Bye!

[Tatiana]

100. I didn't get the flu shot and probably won't in the near future.

I received it around 4 years ago due to being in the "at-risk" population and had a reaction so horrendous, I would have preferred getting the actual flu.

I haven't gotten it since then. If you have the flu, you stay home.

However, if this was specified as a condition of employment, then I would think the company has the right to fire the individuals.

[Horse with no Name]

113. They have in the past allowed the employees to wear masks the entire flu season

they have found that there is a large non-compliance with this.

Get shot or get out.

As a healthcare worker, I find this reasonable. I don't want to catch the flu from a coworker and I don't want them spreading it to the patients.

Hospital employers are notorious for firing employees when they are sick so many are fearful of calling in and come to work when they are ill.

[ebbie15644]

126. Good

As someone who is in and out of the hospital, the last thing I need is to get the flu from someone that is supposed to be taking care of me

[Lunabell]

127. Good.

The flu can be deadly to some. I agree with this decision.