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Thu Nov 23, 2017, 01:27 PM

Everyone Seems to Be in a Big Hurry to Write Off Sen. Franken. Why?

Who is he a threat to?

91 replies, 3670 views

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Reply Everyone Seems to Be in a Big Hurry to Write Off Sen. Franken. Why? (Original post)
dlk Nov 2017 OP
Kentonio Nov 2017 #1
Stinky The Clown Nov 2017 #2
Kentonio Nov 2017 #25
ollie10 Nov 2017 #28
Historic NY Nov 2017 #36
ollie10 Nov 2017 #37
krawhitham Nov 2017 #54
The Velveteen Ocelot Nov 2017 #62
Ms. Toad Nov 2017 #89
The Velveteen Ocelot Nov 2017 #90
Ms. Toad Nov 2017 #91
spooky3 Nov 2017 #68
kcr Nov 2017 #76
questionseverything Nov 2017 #79
dlk Nov 2017 #7
Kentonio Nov 2017 #24
Demsrule86 Nov 2017 #38
kcr Nov 2017 #45
Kentonio Nov 2017 #47
kcr Nov 2017 #48
Kentonio Nov 2017 #51
kcr Nov 2017 #57
Kentonio Nov 2017 #60
kcr Nov 2017 #64
Kentonio Nov 2017 #66
kcr Nov 2017 #70
kcr Nov 2017 #74
Kentonio Nov 2017 #82
BootinUp Nov 2017 #3
Big Blue Marble Nov 2017 #4
lunamagica Nov 2017 #5
loyalsister Nov 2017 #88
cwydro Nov 2017 #6
Horizens Nov 2017 #8
Brother Buzz Nov 2017 #9
Leith Nov 2017 #10
MFM008 Nov 2017 #11
4139 Nov 2017 #12
ornotna Nov 2017 #14
Demsrule86 Nov 2017 #39
ollie10 Nov 2017 #29
tazkcmo Nov 2017 #13
OregonBlue Nov 2017 #15
Ligyron Nov 2017 #30
LakeArenal Nov 2017 #50
moriah Nov 2017 #52
Demsrule86 Nov 2017 #40
Thor_MN Nov 2017 #16
dalton99a Nov 2017 #17
mythology Nov 2017 #18
pnwmom Nov 2017 #19
Demsrule86 Nov 2017 #41
OregonBlue Nov 2017 #86
chowder66 Nov 2017 #20
brooklynite Nov 2017 #21
riverwalker Nov 2017 #34
LakeArenal Nov 2017 #55
spooky3 Nov 2017 #69
questionseverything Nov 2017 #80
ProfessorGAC Nov 2017 #22
tenderfoot Nov 2017 #23
democratisphere Nov 2017 #26
unblock Nov 2017 #27
Demsrule86 Nov 2017 #43
unblock Nov 2017 #63
Demsrule86 Nov 2017 #87
LakeArenal Nov 2017 #56
unblock Nov 2017 #61
LakeArenal Nov 2017 #67
Thor_MN Nov 2017 #72
unblock Nov 2017 #75
bagelsforbreakfast Nov 2017 #31
delisen Nov 2017 #32
Maeve Nov 2017 #33
Historic NY Nov 2017 #35
DBoon Nov 2017 #42
mn9driver Nov 2017 #44
Post removed Nov 2017 #46
mn9driver Nov 2017 #49
Thekaspervote Nov 2017 #53
The Velveteen Ocelot Nov 2017 #58
Turbineguy Nov 2017 #59
LAS14 Nov 2017 #65
librechik Nov 2017 #71
Sen. Walter Sobchak Nov 2017 #73
Lil Missy Nov 2017 #77
DFW Nov 2017 #78
krawhitham Nov 2017 #81
alarimer Nov 2017 #83
CrispyQ Nov 2017 #84
pnwmom Nov 2017 #85

Response to dlk (Original post)

Thu Nov 23, 2017, 01:30 PM

1. I think most of us are just very sensitive of not abandoning our principles for partisan bias.

 

I'm still on the fence because the first 2 allegations seemed deeply questionable, but with the latest ones I'm starting to really worry.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #1)

Thu Nov 23, 2017, 01:33 PM

2. You mean the two anonymous, unsubstantiated second hand accusations?

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Response to Stinky The Clown (Reply #2)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 09:02 AM

25. That's the thing though, there were reports that one of the new sources told a journalist

 

Back when it apparently happened. If that's true, then it becomes really serious. I'm just really trying very hard to not be standing call the accusers liars and it then turn out that it was true all along. Protecting women from sexual assault or harassment has to be more important than any individual, but at the same time we have to protect our polticians from ratfucking by the GOP. It's just difficult.

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Response to Stinky The Clown (Reply #2)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 09:09 AM

28. Yup, the anonymous unsubstantiated ones.....

 

Democrats eat their own.

We say we have to prove we "are better than the other side"

Then we wail as the "other side" gets away with murder

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Response to ollie10 (Reply #28)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 10:20 AM

36. Roger Stone is sitting back laughing.

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Response to Historic NY (Reply #36)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 11:01 AM

37. Yes he is....

 

....at those in the Democratic Party who would rather eat their own to even notice that Roger Stone knew about this set up before the rest of us did.....

That, and the fact that the first accuser was/is deathly afraid of an investigation....speaks volumes

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Response to Stinky The Clown (Reply #2)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 12:13 PM

54. Well 2 of the 4 posted on facebook to thier friends about it AT THE TIME it happened

Do you think these women were part of the GOP's master plan to get Moore elected, 7 years ago?

Look I love Al, I thought he had a great shot at being President in 2020. He is who I wanted most to run

THAT SAID he needs to GO


He needs to resign, PERIOD. We need to draw a line in the sand and we can do that with AL without any real political cost. His Dem Gov will appoint a DEM. A Dem can when a special election next year. And if the Senate ethics committee clears AL he can rerun again in 3 years as a vindicated man

We need to be a party that stands for something, not a party of all words and no action.

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Response to krawhitham (Reply #54)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 12:30 PM

62. So let's throw one of our most effective progressive Senators under the bus

because he allegedly patted a couple of anonymous women's rear ends seven years ago. Franken poses for photos and selfies with thousands of people at the state fair every year (I've seen the huge crowds that gather when he turns up there). If he were engaged in a regular pattern of butt-touching there would be a lot more than two complaints. More importantly, two incidents of alleged butt-patting along with juvenile behavior at a raunchy USO show (for which he has apologized) is not comparable in any respect with the repeated, predatory and illegal conduct of Roy Moore, Harvey Weinstein, Charlie Rose and especially Donald Trump. The symbolic beheading of one of our best politicians for far less serious conduct would be just stupid. It's just as weapons-grade stupid as schools' zero-tolerance policies that cause the expulsion of small children who run around the playground with a stick as a pretend gun, because we can't have weapons in school and we can't even think about weapons in school, because what would people think?

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #62)

Sat Nov 25, 2017, 04:58 PM

89. While I agree he should not resign,

This comment, "If he were engaged in a regular pattern of butt-touching there would be a lot more than two complaints," is pretty much what was said before there were two complaints - as a way of dismissing Tweeden.

Because of the internet, the timeline between first complaint and jumping to the conclusion it is a Republican plot because, of course, there would be more if it was real - compared to the time it takes a woman to decide it is worth the risk of ridicule, character assassination, etc. that everyone - including DU - is putting accusers of liberal icons through.

If you decided years ago that it was better to just let things slide, you now have to overcome not only that decision - but the grief that you know you are going to take for not reporting immediately. I'm frankly surprised that two more women showed up this quickly - and I'm pretty sure there will b emore.

That said, I agree with your assessment about zero-tolerance policies. He has acknowledged crossing the line, sincerely apologized, and my sense is that this is a real wake-up call - that things he was doing that he believed were welcome are not necessarily welcome. Especially on this end of the spectrum of nonconsensual touching, I'm willing to give someone who has sincerely apologized and seems to now understand how serious this is, a second chance.

Which brings me to my final point: Please do not minimize the seriousness of "patt{ing} a couple of anonymous women's rear ends." I have been the recipient of such behavior - from someone I considered a friend in nearly identical circumstances. This occurred more than 27 years ago. I vividly remember the horror at feeling his hand fondling my buttocks - in a situation in which it would have been extremely awkward to respond as i would to the aggression of a stranger (we were in public, in the midst of a smaller group of mutual friends). Before I could decide whether to "make a scene" or to just get away from the situation as quickly as I could, it was over. I avoided any contact with him for 18 months - so it effectively ended a friendship with someone with whom I shared leadership in an organization.

After 18 months, he acknowledged that he must have done something to offend me - and asked if we could have a conversation because avoiding each other while we were sharing leadership was not an effective leadership strategy. In the mean time, I told my spouse and one other person about the incident - and wrestled with whether to inform the other leaders of the organization. It is not the most traumatic sexual offense in my life - I've been raped. But it was still not a trivial incident - and while the extended personal interactions would not have been an issue for these women, the question of whether to inform others because of his leadership role would have been.

Which, I guess brings me back full circle. The person who fondled my butt without consent and I are friends again, and it is unfathomable to me that he would ever engage in that conduct again - now that he has the full picture of its impact on me. Franken's apology has the same tone. I believe in second chances for people who are truly remorseful.

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #89)

Sat Nov 25, 2017, 05:26 PM

90. I don't think butt-patting should be ignored, but I am disturbed

that it is being equated in some quarters with the sexually predatory, criminal acts of the likes of Moore, Weinstein, Trump and others who have been outed lately. On a continuum of unacceptable behavior it's nowhere close to child molestation or rape. The GOP are engaging in whataboutism, saying in effect, "See? One of your guys is a harasser, too! So why are you picking on Roy Moore?" I do not want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, nor will I allow any comparison between Franken and Roy Moore.

If Al Franken had touched my butt during a State Fair photograph I'm not sure what I'd have done - probably pulled away a bit without saying anything because I'd have been too surprised to react. I would have thought less of him, for sure, although I'd have still voted for him (his opponent was a particularly loathsome GOPer who was being advised at the time by Karl Rove). Which brings me to another thought: At the time of the alleged butt-touching Franken was running for the Senate in a very close and very contentious race. The GOP threw everything but the kitchen sink at him in some really vicious attack ads, centered mainly around the raunchy jokes he wrote for SNL and other comedy routines. (Curiously, the incident with Leeann Tweeden did not appear at that time) After two recounts he won the election by only 312 votes, but even before the election was held everybody knew it would be very, very close. So, under those circumstances why in the world would Franken risk upsetting or alienating a single voter by touching her inappropriately? If he really did what's being claimed, did he even get that it was not appropriate?

Maybe it's something like what happened with your friend. I'm no spring chicken and I, like most women, have also experienced sexual harassment in various forms, including unwanted and unexpected groping by people I knew. My experience has been that in some cases the guy just did not get that what he was doing was offensive and intrusive - he regarded it as just harmless flirting, not as an act of sexual predation coupled with an intent to do anything more. I believe many men, especially those who came of age in the '60s and '70s, do not yet understand that sexual harassment is more than just a boss who gets a woman to have sex with him in order to get a raise, or the guy who corners a co-worker in the copy room and sticks his hand up her skirt. Your friend took 18 months to figure out that you were disgusted and upset by his butt-grabbing; he probably intended it as merely harmless flirting.

And there's the real point: What men intend by a particular act is likely to be very different from what women feel about it. Some of them use sexual aggression as a power trip; some others might think women find them sexy when they send dick pics or walk into a room with their bathrobe open. I do believe the current discussion will result in enlightenment for at least some men. And I'm very sure Al Franken will never touch another butt at the State Fair.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #90)

Sat Nov 25, 2017, 05:44 PM

91. Well said.

Ironically, I talked with my daughter for the first time about the incident with my friend (which occurred before she was born). My daughter looked at me like I had just suggested the earth was flat or that the moon was made of blue cheese when I explained to her that I am convinced that he did not know his behavior was offensive. That surprised me a bit, because I know she takes sexual interaction much more casually than I do.

My concern is that (at least on DU) all the energy is going into trying to prove it didn't happen (attacks on Tweeden, attacks on the delayed reporting of the new accusers, attacks on the fact that one of the recent accusers is smilng in the photo). The focus is on: It didn't happen (because the unspoken corollary is that if it did, we ndeed to dump him). I don't believe the corollary.

What we need to focus on is the nature of the offense, and on Franken's response - both of which distinguish these incidents from Moore. We're all a work in progress. His behavior was relatively minor, and his response indicates a light bulb going on. Moore, on the other hand, is still in the current DU mode of denying it happened.

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Response to krawhitham (Reply #54)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 01:07 PM

68. Only one posted a photo of herself and Franken on Facebook, IIRC.

And she added the comment about "molesting" LATER than when she posted the photo.

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Response to spooky3 (Reply #68)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 01:33 PM

76. And, unless I'm mistaken, I don't think the actual FB post was ever found, was it?

I remember at the time the story broke no one could find it.

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Response to krawhitham (Reply #54)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 02:17 PM

79. franken had the nerve to actually count the votes in his senate race

it took 8 months for that win

another dem is not the same

honestly I don't know if you are well meaning or just naïve but you are wrong

the repubs will stop at nothing and if dems are gonna crumble at every nameless accusers we might as well throw in the towel now

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=9860272

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #1)

Thu Nov 23, 2017, 01:41 PM

7. It's Important to Make Sure That Sensitivity Isn't Being Manipulated by Skilled Operatives

Sexual harassment and assault are very serious issues without a doubt and need to be taken seriously. However, it's important to also keep in mind the opposition's tactics and willingness to assassinate someone's character in order to take out a strong opponent. I'm saying let's not rush to judgment and get more of the facts before throwing Franken under the bus.

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Response to dlk (Reply #7)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 08:58 AM

24. Sure, I totally agree. The early ones smelled of ratfucking to me

 

which is why I'm trying to be so careful.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #1)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 11:02 AM

38. Oh you mean the ones that are anonymous? Yeah we should allow the GOP to cook up more

anonymous accusation against Dems...and then pile on. You have to want to believe this in order to believe it.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #1)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 11:51 AM

45. See I think the second two are even more sketchy.

They're anonymous and go out of their way to show just how liberal they are. I really don't get it. To me, the ones who still think Franken is guilty come across as just really wanting him to be and I wonder about them.

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Response to kcr (Reply #45)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 11:57 AM

47. I don't want him to be guilty. Him being guilty would be horrible for us as a party.

 

Franken is a great voice for us, and appears to be a genuinely lovely guy.

What I'm desperate to avoid though is taking that at face value, entering into a full blooded defense and then something coming out that proves that we were wrong and that he actually did those things. Because then not only will our full blooded defense be used by repugs as attacks, but more importantly we'll have called a bunch of victims of sexual assault liars because their attacker was one of our own.

I'm certainly not in the 'throw him under the bus' group, and I don't want him to resign at the moment, but I think being careful is still very much the correct position until we know more. If its true that one of the anomymous women told a journalist at the time about the incident, then that changes things.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #47)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 12:01 PM

48. Then look at it logically.

Let's say you're right. We defended him because it looked like a sketchy RW hit job when the whole time he was guilty. So what? We look embarrassing, big deal. But let's say I'm right and it is indeed a RW hit job but we go with your way to avoid embarrassment. The damage is much worse because his reputation is damaged and he may even be forced to step down.

Which way makes more sense?

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Response to kcr (Reply #48)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 12:09 PM

51. Before the latest two allegations came out

 

I was defending him in a number of places, pointing out the apparent flaws in the accusations while trying to make clear that I wasn't accusing the supposed victims of lying, but pointing out there were enough question marks to warrant a proper inquiry. The latest one with the feminist choir member though really knocked me back. It was HuffPo reporting it, and they talked to a number of her friends from the time who corroborate. Just can't see HP running a smear or not doing dillegent background checks before reporting.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #51)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 12:19 PM

57. A feminist choir member. Wow.

So, they were right wingers come forward with their sketchy and ill-timed stories prompted by Roger Stone so we're not sure we believe that - all of a sudden, holy crap! Feminist choir members! But we don't know why they are... Come on.

I mean, other women don't go out of their way to do this when they come forward to tell their stories. "I was on my way to my Feminist Macrame Club, driving my Subaru and sipping my latte when Barack Obama molested me! And I did vote for him, both times, just so you know!"

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Response to kcr (Reply #57)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 12:25 PM

60. If it was a right wing news source, then I'd be just as disbelieving as you

 

This is the Huffington Post though. I'm assuming they must have researched back and found out whether this was a real thing, whether the accuser was indeed a member, and questioned other members to hear if they had heard the story at the time. That's what they appear to have done, but of course if they didn't then I'll lose a lot of belief in them as a news organization and not trust their reporting in future.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #60)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 12:33 PM

64. Huffpo isn't journalism. It's an internet content farm passing itself off as journalism.

And apparently, it's done a damn good job, sadly.

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Response to kcr (Reply #64)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 12:36 PM

66. Well, we'll see I guess.

 

I genuinely hope you're completely correct about the whole thing.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #66)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 01:15 PM

70. Well, if I'm wrong, then it's bad. But, I have the same info everyone else has.

I will still maintain that I took the right path. It's like even though people win the lottery, it's still generally a bad idea to buy tickets. It looks and smells like a hit job, and that won't change if it turns out he was guilty. It's always the right decision to go with what the evidence says. The odds are in my favor.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #66)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 01:31 PM

74. I wanted to add that I do see your POV as well.

And I don't think everyone who has it just has an agenda to attack Franken. It absolutely is reasonable to be cautious, here. I do get that.

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Response to kcr (Reply #74)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 02:49 PM

82. Thanks very much for that.

 

I know some people are suspicious of the motives of anyone seeming to not be completely behind him, and I do understand why. I just keep thinking about women in the past who have not been believed and I'm left not knowing where to stand on things.

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Response to dlk (Original post)

Thu Nov 23, 2017, 01:34 PM

3. He's going to take down the whole party!!! DO SOMETHING! /SARCASM

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Response to dlk (Original post)

Thu Nov 23, 2017, 01:36 PM

4. Strange that so many will fight to justify Clinton' behavior

and deny his accusers, but already to dump Franken. He is one of our very best senators.
We do need all the facts here. Who are these women? And do they have an agenda.

Franken has made some powerful enemies coming after sessions. I am disgusted by
this behavior if true. I am not sure that it is enough for him to resign if true.

Richard Painter, former Bush ethics lawyer, tweeted this this morning. Every liberal
should read it:


"Al Franken: The Obvious Setup and Liberals Took the Bait"

https://democracyguardian.com/al-franken-the-obvious-setup-and-liberals-took-the-bait-5f3515d379a0

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Response to Big Blue Marble (Reply #4)

Thu Nov 23, 2017, 01:40 PM

5. Who has done that?

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Response to Big Blue Marble (Reply #4)

Sat Nov 25, 2017, 02:59 PM

88. This is a moment where he could really do some good


The defense and hysteria coming from supporters is the bait Dems took. It is to Moore's and Trump's advantage for Dems to step up and say it's okay to protect powerful men at all costs, when we happen to like them.
Al Franken has been handling it well. I don't think he should resign but taking responsibility and accepting some consequences is reasonable.

The big questions that the Me Too movement raised is who were the aggressors? Are those who support the woman who are coming forward going to step up and say they have participated. The numbers tell us that these are not just RW men. Nice guys have sexually abused women. It has been institutionally accepted as a nuisance women are obligated to tolerate, and for men a playful way of enforcing male superiority. Careless and casual sexist behaviors have been a part of a social norm that has finally been challenged.

I would like to see a coalition of men admit to thoughtlessly being part of it and now gaining awareness of the problems with past behaviors. An admission of retroactive wrongness is not a personal indictment. On the political stage, a person could take responsibility and reveal a healthy self examination, rather than joining the choir who search for a public narrative to discredit accusors to defend whoever they support.

Choose the former and refuse to accept any excuses would put the Trump and Moore supporters to shame. Especially if it was an effort led by someone like Bill Clinton, Al Franken, and John Conyers.

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Response to dlk (Original post)

Thu Nov 23, 2017, 01:40 PM

6. Nah, not everyone, just a very specific few.

Pretty obvious who is on this nonsense.

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Response to dlk (Original post)

Thu Nov 23, 2017, 01:43 PM

8. Back up the Trolley

 

Any resignations begin trump.

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Response to dlk (Original post)

Thu Nov 23, 2017, 01:50 PM

9. I don't know, but the Russian trolls are gleeful

"I love it when a plan comes together, Tovarisch"

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Response to dlk (Original post)

Thu Nov 23, 2017, 01:51 PM

10. It's Obviously the rethug Smear Machine in High Gear

They've been doing it for decades: slamming Democrats and liberals for things that they themselves are much more egregiously guilty of. When they tried to paint him as a serial groper with the posed pictures of him and Ariana Huffington, their ridiculous attempts couldn't be more obvious if it was in neon lights.

We should keep track of who is throwing Senator Franken to the wolves. Those turncoats will never be worth listening to again.

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Response to dlk (Original post)

Thu Nov 23, 2017, 01:52 PM

11. thanks for your concern


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Response to dlk (Original post)

Thu Nov 23, 2017, 02:17 PM

12. It appears he singlehandly rescued Roy Moore...

and he may ‘rescue’ the republican house and senate in 2018


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Response to 4139 (Reply #12)

Thu Nov 23, 2017, 02:22 PM

14. Well alright then

What nonsense.

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Response to ornotna (Reply #14)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 11:04 AM

39. It is true those who pile on Franken risk the next two elections and help the Gop.

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Response to 4139 (Reply #12)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 09:12 AM

29. Who is this "he"?

 

This is a set up.

Brought to us by the R & R crowd....Russkies and Republicans

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Response to dlk (Original post)

Thu Nov 23, 2017, 02:21 PM

13. Not everyone.

Not a majority. Not half. Some. Maybe even a handful. Possibly a few. Everyone? Breath...

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Response to dlk (Original post)

Thu Nov 23, 2017, 02:37 PM

15. Al has called for hearings and that's good enough for me. I don't believe these women because

he seems to be a person who is respectful of everyone, not just women. I'll wait until they actually talk with the accusers before I make any decisions. I hope he doesn't have a pension for occasionally patting women's bums but if he does, I still don't consider it on par with forcing himself on 14 year old girls or sending porn shots of his thing and threatening the woman he sent them to.

If it turns out he's a bum patter, I think he should get some sort of talking to and have to get some counseling but I still don't see it as serious enough to make him quit the Senate.

I'm 68 years old. I am a women's libber from way back. I can't tell you how many times in my life I've been sexually assaulted in one way or another. Some were much more serious than that and I can't say I would have wanted a guy who patted my bum to lose his job if everything else about him was to the good. Fire away.

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Response to OregonBlue (Reply #15)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 09:22 AM

30. THIS right here

". I still don't consider it on par with forcing himself on 14 year old girls or sending porn shots of his thing and threatening the woman he sent them to.."

The false equivalency needs to stop.

At some point women are going to be disbelieved when actual sexual assaults take place.

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Response to Ligyron (Reply #30)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 12:08 PM

50. If women are not believed...

then the Gops get two with one stone.. Franken and Moore and Trump off the hook..

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Response to Ligyron (Reply #30)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 12:10 PM

52. On the Barton thing, *she* was recording the phone call...

... and depending on when in 2015 it happened, she'd already committed crimes by distributing the pictures she had to a select few. If she'd been his staffer, it wouldn't be revenge porn but prima facie evidence of sexual harassment. But she wasn't, and nothing about the relationship was non-con.

Therefore, while I am *very* interested in the date of the conversation, because she was the one recording I looked at the quotes as him being unvarnished.

If the worst he was threatening to tell them was all the dirt on him and that she was in the process of spreading it, then it's a far cry from "witness intimidation". He didn't say it'd be "bad for her" beyond having any potential crime she committed investigated -- he said it'd be bad for HIM, but he'd do it if he had to.

And for all we know, the threat she was making could have been as simple as "If you don't continue this relationship with me/stop seeing other women, I'll distribute the photos". Even that seemingly "innocent" threat meets the definition of blackmail.

Flip the genders around. I would certainly tell anyone I was dumb enough to give nudes to, if they were communicating or threatening to communicate those nudes to others, that I'd be making a contemporaneous police report to have my side on the record that I'd said they were taken with an expectation of privacy and that I didn't agree to their distribution.

And I don't think I'd be breaking laws or intimidating anyone into anything.

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Response to OregonBlue (Reply #15)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 11:04 AM

40. I agree with you.

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Response to dlk (Original post)

Thu Nov 23, 2017, 02:42 PM

16. If by everyone, you mean 3 or 4 very vocal people desperate to score points,

 

then you might have a point.

Who is he a threat to? Right wing blowhards.

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Response to dlk (Original post)

Thu Nov 23, 2017, 02:44 PM

17. False assumption.

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Response to dlk (Original post)

Thu Nov 23, 2017, 02:49 PM

18. Women, you know the people he has sexually harassed

 

Or do they not count?

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Response to mythology (Reply #18)

Thu Nov 23, 2017, 02:53 PM

19. No, I literally don't. The second two are ANONYMOUS, so we don't know them.

And the first two turned out to not be credible.

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Response to mythology (Reply #18)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 11:06 AM

41. As far as I am concerned...there are no such women...I feel the first two or liars.

The second two are anonymous...and no one should go down because of unfounded and unproven accusations.

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Response to mythology (Reply #18)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 05:10 PM

86. I am a woman. I am 68 and I can guarantee I've known my share of sexual harassment in my life.

Last edited Fri Nov 24, 2017, 06:52 PM - Edit history (1)

I was actually considered quite pretty when I was young and have done some modeling and commercials, etc. I was hit on a lot. I remember the 60's and 70's and 80's. To me there are varying degrees. The overly friendly guy who has patted my butt on occasion is nothing compared to the 34 year old that would have tried to rape me when I was 14 or the guy who actually grabbed my pussy.

Maybe Al did these things but it occurs to me that if he is that kind of guy he would always be that kind of guy. So far, none of the women he has worked with, either on SNL or since he took office, has said that he has been anything but respectful of them. In fact, he seems to be a man who is generally respectful of everyone including women.

Sorry, but it's been my experience that men who are predators are always predators and they don't just take breaks. I don't believe these women for one moment.

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Response to dlk (Original post)

Thu Nov 23, 2017, 04:09 PM

20. I don't see how principles would be compromised by acknowledging the differences.

Franken has willfully apologized and asked for an investigation. He has 2 accusers that no one can vet at this time but an investigation may allow that. I say when it comes to Franken we have to allow for an investigation to be conducted. And that would be the best thing to do at this time.

His actions aren't as severe as the other accusations against all the others being called out. That does not mean that if these allegations against him are true that he hasn't done anything wrong. If he has done these things then his behavior may have changed or may have the ability to change more so than a child predator or aggressive sexual harasser/abuser. This all remains to be fully understood.

His apology was accepted by one woman who questionably was exhibiting similar behavior during the USO shows. If things were fair, she would apologize to everyone who has read about this for her behavior and any confusion it has caused and to say she can see why people might take issue with her accusations. That isn't happening. And that may be why she accepted his apology.

It's truly hard to say if he grabbed these other women's buttocks. That's going to be nearly impossible or impossible to prove. If it is proven he should be given the opportunity to apologize and be forgiven by those women if they chose to forgive him, though he certainly can't apologize if he doesn't know who has been offended as with the latest 2 accusers. Even if this was proven I would want to know his side of things and the details to gauge the full extent of what is going on to make an informed decision on whether I think he should resign or not. Not that my thoughts on it count for anything.

If Franken was accused of assaulting a child, he would need to resign. Full Stop!
If Franken was accused of pushing women against walls aggressively to get a kiss or reaching up skirts, he would need to resign. Full Stop.

If Moore or Trump, aggressively kept asking or demanding to rehearse a kiss, and the accuser went ahead with it, I would think the very same thing I thought when I heard about Franken. Ewww.

If those two (Moore or Trump) only grabbed buttocks, again I would think ewww as I have thought about G.HW Bush. It doesn't rise to the level of criminality but it does show the depths of inappropriate behavior women have to deal with on TOP of the more severe harassment and abuse. It would bother me (but not forever) especially if they worked tirelessly on advocating for women and women's rights....and if they had numerous other women sending out public support for them.

There have been women who falsely accuse and I have kept this in mind on every one of these breaking stories. Some are more credible than others including some of the men coming forward in the other cases. That doesn't mean I don't believe them but in a few cases (full disclosure: I haven't read everything on everyone in every case) it just means I don't believe them yet or that there isn't enough there for me to side on it one way or the other - on those specific allegations.

By far, for me....Al Franken's accusers are the hardest ones to believe out of the gate. The first one (Leeann) has really made it difficult for me to buy into the others because of her inappropriate behavior with others during the USO show.... but I'm not discounting them nor am I all in on believing them. Again, there just isn't enough "there" there at this time.

I think since Franken has called on the investigation into this we should let it play out and keep an eye on that. That is unless something comes out that takes this to the next level whether that be the accusers being debunked or something more serious has occurred that Franken did. We should instead focus on the tax plan, net neutrality and the more criminal acts. And when a new accusation comes out against anyone we should maybe take a little more time to allow more information to come out to inform opinions.

Franken's situation is not quite the same as the others so far. It's being handled in a more appropriate way by way of an investigation and an apology from the get go. As this is run through the mill then opinions can and will change accordingly.

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Response to dlk (Original post)

Thu Nov 23, 2017, 04:10 PM

21. Who was he a threat to when the alleged "set-up" occurred?

Other than the fact that he says things liberals like, he doesn't stand out as a Senator to "target"

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #21)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 10:12 AM

34. Stone was Atwaters apprentice

They keep opposition files on all Democrats. The night Coleman conceded to Franken, the photo was saved/accessed, that’s a fact. By who, we don’t know yet, someone thought it would be useful and sat on it. What are the odds of the photo saved/accessed/ sent? On that very night?

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #21)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 12:17 PM

55. I guess you aren't paying attention...

Al Franken is a rising star. "says things liberals like". What the heck does that mean? Do you mean he supports Democrats and the Party platform?

He's a target because he is wildly popular in Minnesota and the rest of the Nation. He's being set up just like any popular Democrat is by a corrupt republican party.

The majority here are standing with Al. We probably won't be convinced of any of these week accusations. You aren't even supposed to post negatives posts about Democrats here.

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Response to LakeArenal (Reply #55)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 01:10 PM

69. He also made mincemeat of Trump's attorney general in hearings.

GOPers don't like it when they are shown to be liars, incompetents, and idiots, especially if it could lead to removal from office and/or prison terms.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #21)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 02:27 PM

80. so democratic gov seigleman had his election stolen

then the bama gop sent him to prison

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=9860272

franken on the other hand had the nerve to actually count the votes in his first election

which neither the gop or SOME dnc insiders seem to want

<rolls eyes>

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Response to dlk (Original post)

Thu Nov 23, 2017, 04:25 PM

22. Because People Are Sheep! (eom)

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Response to dlk (Original post)

Thu Nov 23, 2017, 04:26 PM

23. Jeff Sessons

And they went after Franken the day after.

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Response to dlk (Original post)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 09:05 AM

26. Not here!

All true Democrats should stand with Al Franken.

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Response to dlk (Original post)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 09:07 AM

27. He won in a real squeaker. It's a seat republicans can win.

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Response to unblock (Reply #27)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 11:12 AM

43. Those here and elsewhere who claim to be progressive are doing he heavy lifting for the GOP...the

accusations are laughable. We could lose that seat...and that is why Franken is targeted...the first two didn't work so they went to the anonymous accusers...you have to want to believe this shit and basically hate Democrats...some don't get that either a Democrat wins or a Republicans wins....so by weakening the Dem...you cause everything you supposedly hate.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #43)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 12:33 PM

63. Indeed, the gall of republicans

Defending a child molester the the senate, a pussy grabber in the White House, and a criminal assaulter in the house.

But a possible butt pat, oh *that's* unacceptable!

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Response to unblock (Reply #63)

Sat Nov 25, 2017, 01:28 PM

87. Exactly right...perfect! I for one maintain that some are piling on because deep down in their

black hearts, they hate Democrats and refuse to accept the fact that third parties are shit and will never win squat, there will be no progressive revolution (AkA last year) and groups like our revolution, democracy for America and even Move On are doing the GOP's work for them when they attack Democrats. All Democrats will never agree on a perfect Democratic candidate so vote for the candidate with the 'D' next to his name and stop allowing the GOP to win by joining in on right wing attacks on our Democratic elected and candidates...or race facts...you are probably some sort of righty if you can tolerate GOP faults but not faults in Democrats...this is the generic 'you' not you unblock.

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Response to unblock (Reply #27)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 12:19 PM

56. Keep depending on past elections....

That was then, this is now... Step into the present....

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Response to LakeArenal (Reply #56)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 12:29 PM

61. Franken has done a great job strengthening his grip on his seat

And Donnie has certainly helped as well

That's why republicans needed to smear him to have a chance

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Response to unblock (Reply #61)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 12:47 PM

67. Exactly

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Response to unblock (Reply #27)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 01:24 PM

72. You are thinking of 2008. 2014 was a different story.

 

Franken barely beat the incumbent Norm Coleman, who won only when Paul Wellstone was killed in 2002 right before the elections.

His opponent in 2014, who I had to google to remember his name, got less than 43% of the vote. 2020, if Franken chooses to run, and this republican hit job proves to be what I believe it is, will result in whatever loser the Repubs scrape up going down in an even bigger loss.

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Response to Thor_MN (Reply #72)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 01:31 PM

75. Ah, you're right. It would be more effective if he was up in 2018.

I think think the anti-trump wave in 2020 will be a big help for all democrats, which will more than offset any scandal effect for Franken.

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Response to dlk (Original post)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 09:52 AM

31. They are after headlines like this: (yahoo) "Franken's rising political star obscured by accusations

 

"Franken's rising political star obscured by accusations"

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Response to dlk (Original post)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 09:54 AM

32. Rush to Judgement

plus some would like to see their preferred candidate appointed to Franken's seat by the Democratic governor of the state-and arenso eager a name of someone to be appointed has already been suggested.

Add in a few posts by those most interested in sowing division.

A big problem is there is no clear agreed-upon roadmap or process to follow when
there is an accusation.

In Al Franken's case, however, there is a form of due process available and so I think the best course action is to let the the Ethics committee investigate.



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Response to dlk (Original post)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 10:00 AM

33. He's a threat to Jeff Sessions, among others

As to the accusations, they are little more than jay-walking in the big picture; compared to what tRump has CONFESSED to, they are nothing. But we do have to prove just how pure we can be, don't we...and the cons are laughing their heads off at the liberal snowflakes eating their own while Roy Moore just denies and fights for a chnce to be a fraction of the legislative person Franken is.

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Response to dlk (Original post)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 10:18 AM

35. Jeff Sessions.

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Response to dlk (Original post)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 11:10 AM

42. Everyone?

I didn't think Russian bots were really people

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Response to dlk (Original post)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 11:48 AM

44. Franken is one of the two or three most informed, aggressive and effective Democratic Senators

Anyone who thinks Governor Dayton can appoint a replacement even half as effective as Franken, does not live in the real world. Franken is one of the Democratic Party’s great strengths. The right wing propaganda machine will continue to do everything it can to destroy him.

Sometimes I get pretty fed up with the circular firing squad that makes regular appearances here.

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Response to mn9driver (Reply #44)


Response to Post removed (Reply #46)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 12:01 PM

49. Your belief is mistaken.

But your reply is unsurprising and well predicted by my previous post.

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Response to dlk (Original post)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 12:12 PM

53. Let them come forward and swear under oath

Not to sure but what the story would change

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Response to dlk (Original post)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 12:20 PM

58. Because we liberals like to polish our own halos

and are therefore willing to sacrifice some of our best people on the altar of Better Than The Other Side. Some people are so invested in the concept that women always tell the truth about sexual misconduct that they'll naively assume no ratfucking could possibly occur in connection with such incidents and that nobody could possibly have an agenda. Afraid of seeming unconcerned about or complicit in the sexual abuse of women (which nobody doubts is real and pervasive), there are some liberals who would rather throw one of our most effective senators under the Big Liberal Bus of Righteousness than consider the possibility that the claims, especially those made anonymously, might not be accurate and might be motivated by something other than fair outrage about harassment.

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Response to dlk (Original post)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 12:20 PM

59. Once we write off Franken,

they can move on to other targets.

Cheating at elections and gerrymandering is no longer going to be enough. The right needs more help from us. And we need to help them by fielding do-nothing candidates who if elected (somehow), will not ask embarrassing questions.

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Response to dlk (Original post)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 12:35 PM

65. I wish I could articulate a principle, but I just know...

... that I'd rather have Franken in congress and put up with his occasional jerkdom. I know I think Charlie Rose should be kicked off the air. I'm not sure what I would think if I were a right wing Republican faced with 40 year old charges with Moore. Has anything surfaced since then?

I guess it just has to come down to case by case.

I do know that I don't think anything associated with sex should trump all other considerations.

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Response to dlk (Original post)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 01:17 PM

71. Partisan Republicans (implicated as Russian lapdogs) are in charge.

And I don't know what any of us can do about it. They aren't done yet. And NOBODY is doing anything about this quasi invasion.The payoff to Repubs who sold their honor ($800B yanked from Medicaid, end to Obamacare and Fetus as Person) is just too rich for them to say no.

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Response to dlk (Original post)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 01:28 PM

73. Placing orthodoxy before observable reality isn't a uniquely Republican trait

 

Although it is largely a global phenomenon.

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Response to dlk (Original post)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 01:37 PM

77. Everyone???

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Response to dlk (Original post)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 01:39 PM

78. I'm not. End of story.

Remember the so-called "Obama Scandals" of 5 or 6 years ago? Probably not, as they were a figment of the right wing's imagination. They got some traction for a few weeks, and then evaporated as so much steam. Not even Fox Noise bothered to resurrect them. They took their shot, they missed, they moved on.

I predict that once the Alabama Senate election is done, so will be posts like these.

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Response to dlk (Original post)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 02:46 PM

81. How many need to come forward before we believe them? Clearly four is not enough for "Progressives"

Does it take 9, 14, 16? Or do we only believe accusations against GOP politicians

Just trying to understand the rules

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Response to dlk (Original post)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 02:52 PM

83. Whatever punishment is meted out has to fit the crime.

I don't think at this point, even if verified, what Franken did justifies expulsion or resignation. (Even if the resignation might happen because he becomes a distraction, which is a whole other thing).

I think censure of some kind might be appropriate, depending on the results of the ethics investigation. I would think any accusation would hold more water if it came in the form of testimony under oath.

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Response to dlk (Original post)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 03:37 PM

84. We have to show the right that we go high when they go low,

even if it means throwing one of our best over the cliff, based on specious claims.

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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #84)

Fri Nov 24, 2017, 03:48 PM

85. That's the idea but it's stupid. The R will not follow any example we set

and it lumps possible mistakes on the orders of Franken's along with truly venal acts like child molestation.

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