When Meghan weds Harry, Britains relationship with race will change for ever

[Soph0571]

Almost two decades ago, during the heady first months of the new millennium, an unruly baroness named Kate Gavron made a shocking suggestion. Prince Charles, she said, should have married someone black. It would be, she imagined, a powerful symbol of the monarchy’s commitment to racial integration and multiculturalism.

Gavron’s comments were not well received at the time. As is so often the case with race and the royals, far more interesting than these remarks themselves, were the media reactions to them. Some suspected this was merely a clandestine attempt at “getting rid” of the monarchy, erasing their heritage through interracial marriages. Not so much revolution, as racial dilution.
----------------------------
But we live in times defined also by identity. In recent years, the question of what it means to be British has been weaponised and politicised in new ways. Markle is, on one side of her family, directly descended from the plantation slavery of America’s Deep South - a history with which all of Britain’s powerful families, including the royals, are inextricably linked. He may not have realised it at the time, but by condemning the press reaction to his relationships with Markle, Prince Harry was aligning himself with those still dealing with the fallout of that history, and its very real legacy today.

If Prince Harry had wanted to find a way to make his role more relevant in modern Britain, he could have done a lot worse. And so while neither the reaction to his engagement to Markle, nor the reaction to the reaction, could ever have been planned, if engagements are meant to bring people together, this one is doing just that.

Really pissing off the racists! LOL

[HipChick]

1. Disagree...the UK already has one the highest populations of bi-racial and interracial marriages..

[pnwmom]

7. The British monarchy has never had a biracial marriage. This will be a sea change. n/t

[HipChick]

12. This is not the first Royal person of color..

[cwydro]

8. Very true.

My parents were British, and we visited often during my childhood.

The first time I saw biracial children and inter-racial marriages was in England.

It wasn’t even remarkable. This was mid 60s.

[Hortensis]

57. Mid 60s, they were way ahead of a lot of people here.

So accurate to say, it's the royals who will change to more resemble the rest of their people in this era. I guess that just accepting it risks underestimating what a very big, symbolic thing it is for that little northern European state.

[Glorfindel]

2. Look at those two young people. How could you NOT be happy for them?

And if they choose to reproduce, their children will be ravishing. Three cheers, I say!

[adigal]

23. I'm not impressed...Harry is an unemployed, uneducated racist lazy spoiled playboy

Who, in his 20s, thought it was funny to wear a Nazi uniform. He also calls Muslims "ragheads." He is a jackass.

Meghan is an educated, smart woman who has made her own way in the world. Why in the hell is she marrying him???

Hmmmm....maybe the endless money, fame and status have something to do with it? Cause she is marrying WAY down!

[Pacifist Patriot]

28. Do you know nothing of his military service?

His philanthropic work? His social and political advocacy? Wow

[secondwind]

36. You really are down on Harry. Why?

[adigal]

50. Read my post upthread. Nt

[jl_theprofessor]

58. Okay there, Edgelord.

[VMA131Marine]

78. This wins the prize for the most ignorant post I've seen today

I think if you do a cost-benefit analysis on the UK Royal Family you'll find that Britain comes out ahead just on the increase in tourism they generate. Besides, I'd much rather have a hereditary monarchy than a succession of elected Trumps.

[VMA131Marine]

76. They are both in their thirties ...

Really not that young anymore ... not that there's anything wrong with that.

[Glorfindel]

77. Well, when you're my age, people in their 30's look very young indeed.

[VMA131Marine]

79. I'm 53, they still aren't young ....

[Glorfindel]

80. I'm 72. I'd LOVE to be 53 again, youngster.

n/t

[VMA131Marine]

82. Youth is overrated ...

[LanternWaste]

81. It's fun to pretend a relative is actually an absolute.

It's fun to pretend a relative is actually an absolute. We get to feel more clever about ourselves than reality may warrant.

Relative (adj) - dependent on external conditions for its nature

Absolute (adj) - viewed independently; not comparative or relative



They have two different meanings, and not in fact, synonyms. I certainly hop that assist you in making the same mistake again.!!!

[jodymarie aimee]

3. Can't we all just be people...

I don't like all this race talk...2 lovely young people... who gives a crap if she is 1/2 black....it IS 2017....

[guillaumeb]

6. Did the GOP care about President Obama being 1/2 black?

In GOP America, it is always 1850.

[pnwmom]

9. Did you say the same thing when Barack Obama was elected?

Millions of people were especially inspired BECAUSE he was black.

[HipChick]

13. Race is uniquely an American driven issue

UK folks pretty much don't give a damn...they are just looking forward to getting out a Union Jack and street parties..

[pnwmom]

15. Yeah, right.

[HipChick]

16. I guess you have no experience of living in the UK then..

[pnwmom]

20. I spent a summer that, that's all. But it was enough to know that they have racists, too. n/t

[HipChick]

21. Everywhere in the world has racists..

but UK is not as focused on race like the US is..

[pnwmom]

24. "Theresa May vows to tackle racism after a report reveals shocking extent of discrimination."

Let me know when the UK elects an African-British Prime Minister. Or when they decide to repeal their racism-driven Brexit.

And by the way, in the UK, they refer to Indians as "blacks." I'm sure you'll say there is no racism involved in their attitudes to Indians, either. And you'll be wrong.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-racism-review-government-race-audit-inequality-a7991316.html

Theresa May will admit Britain has a long way to go to achieve racial equality after a major review laid bare significant divisions in the way black and ethnic minority people are treated.

The Prime Minister will also warn business leaders, government, police and other institutions that they have "nowhere to hide" and must ensure that race is never a barrier to people achieving their goals.

The data, published on Tuesday, will offer an unprecedented insight into how people from different backgrounds face a postcode lottery of outcomes, as the unemployment rate for ethnic minorities is nearly double that of white British adults, with a larger gap in the North of 13.6 per cent, compared to 9 per cent in the South.

[HipChick]

32. Armchair gathering does not equal

Last edited Mon Nov 27, 2017, 10:43 PM - Edit history (2)

living there...Indians, (but actually mostly Pakistani's) are certainly not referred to as black..
BTW, your 'African' is wrong...majority of "Black" in UK are from the West Indies - they would not call themselves African either...

[pnwmom]

40. Many do refer to Indians as blacks. Now I wonder whether you really did live there. That's a tell.

"Black British"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_British

Historically, the term has most commonly been used to refer to Black people of New Commonwealth origin, of both West African and South Asian descent. For example, Southall Black Sisters was established in 1979 "to meet the needs of black (Asian and Afro-Caribbean) women."[7] ("Asian" in the British context usually refers to people of South Asian ancestry).[8][9] "Black" was used in this inclusive political sense[10] to mean "non-white British." In the 1970s, a time of rising activism against racial discrimination, the main communities so described were from the British West Indies and the Indian subcontinent, but solidarity against racism sometimes extended the term at that time to the Irish population of Britain as well.[11][12]

[HipChick]

41. Who are "Many"? I suggest you stop googling, and ask a British born Indian person

if they call themselves that...the answer will be NO...they might be hard, as it's obvious you have not met any

Is this a "Many" people say thing?

[pnwmom]

42. People of Indian descent don't call THEMSELVES that. But WHITE British people sometimes do,

as you would know if you really did spend significant time in Britain.

I had an argument with a reporter from The Guardian on this very subject. We were discussing racial divisions, and she referred to blacks in India. I told her that we only used the word "blacks" in the US to mean African Americans, and she insisted that Indians are blacks, too.

[HipChick]

43. That's a single reporter from The Guardian....the MAJORITY of ANGLO-SAXON's

would not use that term to refer to Indians or actually Pakistani's, since that is the more the majority there than Indians...
One person's limited view does not represent the whole..I suggest you argue and take up your case with a British born Indian, since you are so insistent on being right...have them educate you

[pnwmom]

49. You're changing the goalposts now. I never said the majority of British people would do that.

I have simply been saying that racism is a significant problem in the UK, which you began by denying -- saying that race was an "American driven issue."

And I specifically said Indian-British would NOT say that they are black -- in the title line of the post you just answered -- so there is no reason for me to take up that case with them.

[HipChick]

63. I don't think you have a clue...

And it's Anglo-British.. not Indian-British...

[pnwmom]

64. British people of Indian descent aren't "Anglo-British." Anglo-Saxons are Anglo-British.

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057/9781137008756_4

Abstract
The empirical investigation of nationalism from the perspective of the theory of multiple modernities starts with the Anglo-British case. Any investigation of nationalism and modernity needs to consider this because England is widely seen to constitute a context in which modernity emerged and also because it is acknowledged that English nationalism was one of the first to emerge in the world. In short, the English case is arguably an archetypical one in the study of both modernity and nationalism, and as such it is a suitable subject of investigation in this volume. However, discussing the English case is no straightforward task and the purpose of this chapter is to examine the Anglo-British case, a rather inelegant formulation. This is because, as we shall see later, English nationalism is entangled with British nationalism, or more precisely the idea of England with that of Britain, or being English with being British.

[Denzil_DC]

48. I believe the choice to include people of broadly Indian descent among the group "blacks"

was a political one made by some activists quite a while ago who were seeking to build a united front against racism.

It's not a term I as a white Brit ever recall hearing applied to people of Indian descent in everyday usage at all. I'm also not sure how many British people of Indian descent would apply it to themselves.

In my experience, if they refer to a heritage, it'll either be pointedly to their place of birth in the UK (a neat reply to any arsehole who tells them to "go home" ), or a more specific, geographically and geopolitically correct region or country in Asia where their forebears originated - Pakistan, Bangladesh etc.

I won't mention some of the terms we're still having trouble training some in our country not to use about people of Indian descent etc., but "black" would be polite in comparison.

Racism's a big deal in the UK, somewhat worse now than it's been for years with the tensions arising from Brexit. It hasn't led to such mass outbursts of deadly violence as it has in the USA, for various reasons, but it's all too prevalent, even in our larger multicultural cities.

[HipChick]

52. Thanks for the confirmation Denzil_DC...Certainly not used as an everyday usage

and yes, don't even want to use the the other names that are used...as a Brit, there are some that will never stop using 'those' names, especially those from an older generation that grew up with the National Front
There is more cross-cultural socialization in the UK, Racism certainly exists but there is not the degree of labeling that seems to prevail as it does on this board, and in the minds of some DU'ers here....

[cwydro]

70. My dad grew up in London, and my relatives all live in England.

None of them refer to Indians or Pakistanis as “black” either.

I have heard some of the other terms used however, but never black. My dad grew up in cockney London, and he would use a certain word for Indians (I’m sure you know of which I speak). But mom finally trained him out of it lol. He evolved.

[HipChick]

83. @cwydro I know of what you speak...It took me years to train both my parents out of it..

[HipChick]

44. Still googling? No substitue for living there...guess you missed the whole British riots

Indians do not identify as black..

Even Indians from the West Indies do not identify as black..

[pnwmom]

65. Can't you read? I explicitly said several times that people of Indian descent in Britain

do NOT identify as black.

But SOME white people do put them in that category.

[HipChick]

84. I can read, but it seems like you do not comprehend...

Several other British DU'ers have posted what you are claiming, is codswallop...

[Myrddin]

51. Born, raised, and still a citizen of

..UK

An interesting dialogue. You both have some fair points but, on balance, I see more reality in HipChick's understanding.

In rural, small village, areas of UK there is an alarming degree of intolerance, but that extends to white Brits who are "not from 'round these parts" as well as a particular dislike for POC.

Brits have a knack for finding a reason to discriminate against others eg North-South, English-Wesh, Lancashire-Yorkshire. Usually, it's with a healthy dose of humour, sometimes it's more serious.

However, in larger towns/cities the majority don't view day-to-day life in a racially discriminating context. Are there exceptions; sure, but not a prevalence in general society.

For clarification, POCs in the UK: Black, generally refers to those of Afro-Caribbean descent, Asian, generally refers to those of the Indian sub-continent. The only other 'major', and established, ethnic minority is the Chinese, who are simply Chinese, not normally referred to as Asian. Any other nationalities are also referred to by their nationality, not their continental region.

[HipChick]

53. Exactly..you languaged it better than I could..I went up "North' once..

for work, locals at the pub, would never let me forget where I came from.. but anyone outside their hamlet was classified as a definite outsider, regardless of color...and no matter what my real name was, they would only refer to me as Vera Duckworth..

[pnwmom]

66. A couple years ago I thought Americans were less racist than I've learned they are.

And I would have thought that by now, after the nationalist Brexit vote, British people were beginning to understand how much latent racism they're still dealing with.

[Pacifist Patriot]

30. I have spent a great deal of time in the UK.

And in towns and villages, not just cities. The racism can be quite shocking once you detect it. They are struggling with the issue indeed. The insidious impact of colonialism is still felt.

[HipChick]

34. Raised and born there....like most rural places

Towns and villages are insular, whereas cities are more cosmopolitan...I have actually seen a lot of racism against Polish and other Eastern Europeans in the smaller towns and villages...nothing to do with skin color, but against different way of life..and the perception of entitlement to government subsidies

[defacto7]

56. Some of my favorite memories are when I lived

in Great Britain. I don’t mean to crash the post but I feel compelled to comment. I lived just outside Lewes, East Sussex in a cottage on the downs for summer's when I was working in the area. The cottage was owned by a "white witch" and we had the most wonderful talks in her garden. I also had a flat on Drury Lane in London for a time while working there. I was always amazed how so many cultures could blend so well. It was definitely different from my US experience.

I also lived in Bologna Italy for a time. They had a custom of calling Italians from the south of Italy blacks basically because of the darker hair and skin as opposed to the Northern Italians who tended to be lighter with a higher rate of blue eyes. Nothing discriminatory about those distinctions at all. Just a recognition and appreciation for their differences.

Cheers

[pnwmom]

67. The "custom" of fair skinned northern Italians calling those in the south "blacks"

is not discriminatory?

Yeah, right.

I noticed in England that some there also referred to the Irish as black. They ones that do don't use the term out of fondness. When they use it to refer to white people, it's always a way to suggest their own superiority.

[defacto7]

75. I appreciate many of your posts..

But sometimes it's pretty clear you haven't a clue. Sorry, but not all human experience, nationality or culture can be measured against your own as if your interperatation is absolute. I hope you find healing and peace.

Be well.

[VMA131Marine]

85. That's so not true

Racism is actually a huge problem in Europe too. Crowds hurling racial insults at non-white football (soccer) players during games are all too common and glaring examples of that.

[uponit7771]

11. Nothing wrong with race talk

[DangerousUrNot]

31. What is wrong with acknowledging race?

I think the problem is seeing another race as inferior. With all of the racial tension in our country now, I think it’s a good thing to acknowledge a high profile interracial couple. It’s beautiful.

[bdamomma]

33. nt

+1

[jl_theprofessor]

60. Only a white person

could say this with a straight face.

People of color aren't trying to be discriminated against for not being white. White people are the ones that keep making it an issue by the way they continue to disenfranchise and imprison minorities. So yeah, it's worth pointing out that she's half black because we continue to look for positive public images and ways to change the culture in a society where people of color still get imprisoned more, still get biased judicial outcomes, still get discriminated in housing, and on and on. When white people stop doing everything in their power to make the lives of PoC miserable, then we won't have a reason to bring up race anymore.

[Denzil_DC]

4. Ugh.

It's a forlorn hope, but I wish people - and more particularly the media - would just leave them alone, rather than projecting great expectations and significance on their every move.

Especially given the revolting hypocrisy around the treatment of Harry's mum, who veered from the youthful "People's Princess," to bitter, vengeful, controversial royal wife whose image and antics sold vast numbers of copies of the scandalsheets, to the flower-strewn hyped-up funeral for she who became all of a sudden again "The People's Princess", attended by many of those who eagerly lapped up the tales of her misery, once the paparazzi had hounded her to her grave.

I'm a Brit, and not a royalist. Most of the folks who pay attention to the royals on DU are far more royalist than the friends and neighbors I speak to every day.

I'm not going to threadcrap every time this comes up on DU, but I'm indifferent.

If it can help promote social change, I'm all for it, but different rules always apply to the rich and privileged.

[dhol82]

27. True. nt

[MFM008]

5. Hurrah!!!

Be happy Harry and Meghan.

[madaboutharry]

10. They do look beautiful together.

[JI7]

14. It's probably pissing off bigots inn the US more than in the UK

[HipChick]

17. Exactly..

People could not give a shit about race in the UK...
An inter-racial couple will still get stared at in 2017 in the US
They would not even get a second look in the UK, way too common..

[JI7]

18. Depends on the area. And I'm sure there are bigots in the UK who hate this

But i think overall it's worse in the US.

when the gymnast gabby douglas won the gold there were some disputing it. What stood out was the ones missy insisting she did not deserve it were those in the US.

even the people from the country of the girl that lost to douglas were saying douglas won it fairly and deserved it.

[HipChick]

22. Overall it is worst in the US...

[bdamomma]

35. I agree hipchick geez let them be happy

we need to focus on our own country.

[HipChick]

37. Agree...they found love, despite the differences in their background

that is to be celebrated....

[bdamomma]

39. Diversity is a beautiful thing

unfortunately some people don't get it huh?

[jl_theprofessor]

61. I'm not sure you've spent enough time in the UK

if you think race isn't an issue. Brexit? The report that just came out last month documenting the massive spike in hate crimes.

White people have to stop thinking this is just an American issue.

[Tarheel_Dem]

19. Harry's used to it, but I sure hope Meghan & family can withstand the glaring media spotlight, and..

the hatred & jealousy that will naturally flow from that.

[renate]

25. isn't there a coal miner in Kate's ancestry?

And now a descendant of plantation slaves is going to join the royal family. Neither Kate's ancestors nor Meghan's would ever, ever, ever, ever, ever have dreamed they'd have an HRH among their descendants. In George's case, a coal miner's descendant is going to be the King of England.

I think that's super cool.

[Bucky]

26. This reminds me of that time we elected Obama and ended racism in America

Truly are golden hour

Which is about the length of time the Universal Brotherhood lasted

[Bradshaw3]

29. Sad commentary on our times for two reasons

One, that racial divisions are still so meaningful and, two, that people still give a shit about "royals" who are only elevated to such heights because their long-ago ancestors were trumpian in their ruthless acquisition of power and wealth. The world would be better off without these leeches - getting rid of them, now that would be a story.

[jalan48]

46. As we devolve into a world ruled by a few oligarchs, and the subsequent obscene income inequality

associated with such a political and economic set-up, it's comforting to pretend that racial balance in the make believe world of the Royal Monarchy has real meaning.

[FarCenter]

47. High-ranking British men have been having relationships with dark-skinned women for centuries

[Egnever]

54. Right?

[HipChick]

62. Prince Charles had a fling with Sheila Ferguson, singer of the group The Three Degrees

Supposedly she rejected his amorous advances at first, but they kept in contact - An inter-racial relationship that spanned the years..

[Denzil_DC]

55. Some reactions from the Daily Mail comments:

(@TechnicallyRon is a comedy/satire writer, and one of his occasional party pieces is to take comments from under Mail articles and paste them as if they were the headlines to the story.)

Link to tweet

TechnicallyRon
✔
@TechnicallyRon

I have no idea what is happening in the Daily Mail comments, they've gone full bananas, so here's the article with the comments as headlines

None of which should upset anyone on what set out to be a celebratory thread - we in the UK don't take these shiftless frothing arsehole losers seriously, so you shouldn't. They'll be on to the next outrage in no time. The replies to the tweet are probably more representative as a range of reactions.

(Plus - nobody tell them - Ms. Markle looks like she could be Kate Middleton's long-lost other sister.)

[HipChick]

59. Lol! I keep waiting for them to close down the comments section...

[Denzil_DC]

72. On reading the replies to that tweet (recommended if you haven't already),

it sounds like they were rather slow to open up the article to comments.

They probably had to make sure their moderators (yes, these are moderated comments!) were sufficiently well strapped down and spiked with valium first.

[HipChick]

73. Ironically, many of the folks commenting are US bigots..

Figures...

[Denzil_DC]

74. That's been happening with UK newspaper comments sections for much more than a decade.

Even the Guardian's been prey to it. Online ratfuckery is nothing new!

[redgreenandblue]

68. She is black?

Wot? Must have my monitor settings adjusted poorly....

[WinkyDink]

69. Her mother is.

[FarCenter]

71. Probably about 25% sub-Saharan African genes

He mother was fairly light-skinned. These days, with ancestry.com and 23andMe.com, there is no reason to guess.