Colorado Shootings: Latest Evidence That America Is Poisoned by the NRA's Dark Gun Culture

[ananda]

Bill Moyers at his eloquent finest.

http://www.alternet.org/news/156408/colorado_shootings%3A_latest_evidence_that_america_is_poisoned_by_the_nra%27s_dark_gun_culture?page=1

"The gunman in Colorado waited only for his opportunity. So there you have it – the arsenal of democracy has been transformed into the arsenal of death. And the NRA? The NRA is the enabler of death -- paranoid, delusional and as venomous as a scorpion. With the weak-kneed acquiescence of our politicians, the National Rifle Association has turned the Second Amendment of the Constitution into a cruel and deadly hoax."

[yellerpup]

1. Bill Moyers frames this brilliantly.

Nice find.

[malaise]

2. Here's the video

http://billmoyers.com/segment/bill-moyers-essay-living-under-the-gun/

[truth2power]

18. Something interesting in the comments section of that video..

From the TV footage it is clear that he was wearing a ballistic MICH helmet (not the cheap plastic version available to Airsoft types even on Amazon, but the actual ballistic helmet). Go to the site of any supplier of them and try to buy it yourself. You can't. You have to prove LE or military affiliation. A MICH ballistic helmet is not readily or easily available (much easier to get an AR or AK). Every once in a while one comes up on Ebay, but it is rare. And yet he had one.

If the poster's assertion is true, how did Holmes acquire that helmet? Not that it would be impossible, but difficult, at best. I know nothing about these things, but I just wonder.

[malaise]

21. I did wonder

Guess we'll know when they get into that computer in the apartment

[onehandle]

3. It's time to ban support of the NRA at DU. nt

[Hoyt]

22. Gun culture in the cess pool claim that expansion of guns is "progressive" and they even go as far

at times to compare their gun plight to the Civil Rights Movement. It's pretty crazy there.

[rl6214]

37. Yet you spend so much time in that "cess pool"

In fact 74% of your total posts are in that "cess pool"

[Hoyt]

38. Still keeping tabs on me while fondling your guns.

Stop stalking me for a moment - keeping a record of what I do and post- and go alert on this post too.

[Hoyt]

43. Thanks. It's sad that society has to put up with this, not to mention their polluting DU.

[rl6214]

67. "The best thing we can do is work toward getting that cesspool closed down"

Can't beat em, ban em eh? Very progressive understanding point of view you've got there. I've never put anyone on ignore, you guys are too funny to miss your posts. Your false outrage and your 1% attitude.

[permatex]

51. Why don't you answer the question Hoyt

If you hate us so much, then don't go the there.
Seems pretty simple to me.

[rl6214]

66. Keeping tabs? Nope, just curious.

"Stop stalking me for a moment"

Don't flatter yourself.


"go alert on this post too."

I don't alert on your posts, they're too funny

[gopiscrap]

28. Agree!!!

[Patiod]

30. I disagree

I'm a Quaker, and one of the people who enjoys arguing with the trolls that come running out of the gungeon after every shooting.

But there are also a lot of Good DU Citizens who enjoy guns and gun sports and talking about guns there in the gungeon.

Let's not throw those Good DU gun-babies out with the gun troll bathwater.

[friendly_iconoclast]

35. So why do *you* choose to wade in that "cess pool" on a regular basis?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=284331

Favorite group: Gun Control & RKBA, 48 posts in the last 90 days (4% of total posts)

[Chorophyll]

7. +2 nt

[barbtries]

8. i'd like to see that.

support of the NRA is not consistent with liberal values.

[hack89]

45. Can we still support the RKBA and gun ownership in general?

or are we expected to toe the gun control line?

[barbtries]

47. it's up to the mods.

at this point as far as i know you can be a cheerleader for the NRA and a card carrying member. in my opinion that is simply not compatible with liberalism.
none of this is my decision so i don't know why you're asking me what you can or cannot do.

[hack89]

49. Because I am curious where you draw the line

for many here gun ownership of any kind is not compatible with liberalism. "Cheerleader for the NRA" is a broad and ambiguous term - what constitutes cheer leading in your mind?

[barbtries]

60. the fact that i wish

no one had a gun does not change the fact that many many MANY people do. i understand that. where i draw the line is that there will not be a gun in my house. i once had a boyfriend who found out how serious i was about that edict when he thought he could stash his guns in my closet. the relationship could have ended then and there. kinda wish it had, but that's another story. there also came a time when i was thankful for my policy because he became extremely abusive. he threatened to kill me. it wasn't going to be easy though and i came out of it all alive.

i think anyone who believes that the NRA gives a rat's ass about the constitution is a cheerleader. they are all about the money and nothing but the money. and clearly their rhetoric proves (to my mind) that they could not care less about the constant gun violence and the mass murders, often committed with weapons that have nothing to do with any legitimate sporting event. they're in the business of preying on people's fears and whipping up hysteria and it is BULLSHIT. my opinion.

[hack89]

61. I routinely defend the RKBA here without ever invoking the NRA

I support US gun laws as they presently exist. For that I am routinely attacked as a RW NRA apologist. Do you understand why pro-gun Democrats such as my self get tired of constant attempts to pin the label "NRA cheerleader" on us so our views can be ignored?

I do not support the NRA. I support the 2A. I support the RKBA. I am a Democrat.

[barbtries]

62. did you read Jason Alexander's essay about this?

he did overstate the number of gun deaths (though 1 is too many and there are thousands annually in the US), but other than that i believe he made a number of very good points.
we read the 2nd amendment differently. it's not all cut and dried. and it befuddles me that you would be supportive of the laws that allowed James Holmes to acquire all that firepower legally. there should be a trigger at least so that when someone is amassing an arsenal such as his, it doesn't fly under the radar.
i believe you are a democrat, but trust me on this issue you and i are poles apart and sadly i do not see that changing.

[hack89]

63. There are so many other things out there to be scared of

a semi-automated rifle is not one of them. Rifles and shotguns of every type are responsible for about 300 deaths a year - if you had the power to change 20 things in America with the only criteria being that you had to save the most lives, an assault weapon ban would not be on the list.

I have owned and shot rifles for 30 years without ever hurting a soul. My wife and children shoot with me and they have never shot anyone. I am not the problem here.

[barbtries]

65. you didn't respond to one thing i said.

did you read it?

[hack89]

69. Yes

I was just pointing out that if you plan to live your life in fear there are bigger things to be scared of.

I read Alexander's screed - he is clueless about US history.

[barbtries]

70. i am not scared

and i am not armed.

[hack89]

71. Good - that makes two of us. Peace. tn

[raouldukelives]

10. Yes, as well as Wall St.

Nothing but terror coming from either one these days. Putting profits over people is not a liberal value in any sense.

[ananda]

11. Good point.

I shudder to think of the number of lives harmed or lost due to
Wall Street values.

[_ed_]

16. AMEN

NRA members are the useful idiots of the corporate gun manufacturers.

[gopiscrap]

27. I agree!!!

[aikoaiko]

32. No ban is necessary - your scintillating discussion of gun control is winning the day

[aikoaiko]

44. Please don't confuse reasonable debate on gun control with your posts.

I respect people who thoughtfully discuss the issues, but I do find posts like yours and the like those of the person to whom I responded laughable in their obsessive hatred for all things guns.

Everyday the GC&RKBA forum is open and full of vibrant discussion is a repudiation of your stance.

[aikoaiko]

50. No, the reasonable debate includes people who wish to restrict gun possession as well as..

...those who wish to maintain or expand gun possession. And then there are the posters who just like shit in any thread on guns. I find them contemptible and laughable.

I also find laughable people like you who think closing down discussion of these issues in the guns forum is somehow advancing your cause. Its a good example of why unreasonable gun restrictionists such as yourself fail to address people like James Holmes in a meaningful way.

There is nothing laughable about the tragedy in Aurora or any other unjustified shooting. You don't get to own that tragedy. Neither the pro-rkba not the anti-rkba people want murders to happen. We merely disagree on how to prevent or reduce their frequency.

[permatex]

53. Arguing with him is like arguing with a wall

nothing penetrates his mindless rants. As far as he is concerned, we are evil tools of the NRA who helped encourage this massacre.

[aikoaiko]

57. bupkus is his name afterall.

And his is living up to it.

I know there is a lot of focus on the pro-rkba trolls who roll through, the anti-rkba trolls are just as disruptive to DU.

There are people who come to discuss the issues and then there are the trolls.

[permatex]

58. Right on cue

Post #55
He is soooooooooo.....................predictable.

[Initech]

34. Oh would I love to tell the NRA where they can stick it.

The weapons that were used in Colorado no civilian should be able to obtain legally.

[Reasonable_Argument]

41. I don't support the NRA

due to their almost blind allegiance to the republican party but, I'm staunchly pro gun. So how does that fit into your scenario?

[rurallib]

4. Thanks so much for bringing this to our attention

[myrna minx]

5. Thank you for posting.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. Thanks.

[samsingh]

12. he is completely right

[tooeyeten]

13. meantime back in Washington

The GOP was threatened with "tracking" if they voted to acquiesce on legally requiring revearling the identities of individuals funding units like Freedom Works, etc.

[QUALITYCONTRoll]

14. ID we don't need no stinking ID

?
some want us to get ID's to vote...but many will fight against ID's to buy guns

[gejohnston]

15. You already need IDs to buy guns

and a background check.

[DrDan]

20. for private sales also???? . . . . 40% of all gun sales

[obamanut2012]

52. You do in my state, or you will be going to prison

[secondvariety]

23. Maybe from a dealer you do,

but I can buy them all day from private parties and the only thing I have to show them is cash.

[Hoyt]

24. Come on GE. You know a lot of guns get sold privately (back alleys) without checks or anything.

[ananda]

33. QFT

some want us to get ID's to vote...but many will fight against ID's to buy guns

-------

The righties make it easier to buy weapons and explosives than to vote.

We live in an upsidedown world. Remember that quote by Lady Macduff in
the play Macbeth?

I am in this earthly world; where to do harm
Is often laudable, to do good sometime
Accounted dangerous folly.

(IV.ii.75-7)

[_ed_]

17. NRA Members are selfish fools

NRA members are the useful idiots of the corporate gun manufacturers.

[Ccarmona]

19. 12 More People Died

early Friday morning, than have died all year from smoking marijuana. However, the US Attorney in California thinks that she must close down the Medical marijuana clinics in Oakland because that's the threat to society. What a bunch of crap and mis-placed priorities we have in this country.

[aikoaiko]

25. Blaming the NRA is missing the point.

Last edited Tue Jul 24, 2012, 12:50 AM - Edit history (1)

I can only assume that Bill is engaging in election year posturing because he is not making a good argument.

He tries to connect rhetoric from the 2007 NRA convention with the VATech shooting, but there is no evidence that Cho was connected to the NRA in anyway.

He tries to connect the NRA's stance on the arms treaty to the shooting in Aurora, but they have nothing to do with one another.

He says there are a lot of guns in the US and many are complying with legal requirements to carry them which includes criminal background checks, but compliance with the law is a good thing, no?

Toys are regulated more than guns? I don't even know how he can make that point, but it is unsupported by any facts.

Then he goes on to say that violence is our alter ego and we'll move on from this tragedy. He's probably right about that.

No one is saying that people should own any weapon they want without regulation. This is a great strawman. Most gun owners and NRA support some form of gun control laws.

Here is the part that is most shameful: he brings up the specter of terrorism to prop up his argument.

The thing that Bill Moyers and others don't understand is that before 1968, you could buy any legal firearm and ammo via the mail without background checks. You could file the paperwork and own any domestic or imported fully automatic firearm which, in general, didn't cost more than twice a semi-automatic version. Prior to 1968, the NRA was very reasonable.

It was the "guns are evil crowd" that brought about drastic and punitive laws that inflamed gun owners and empowered the NRA in order to fight back. Not that I think that all the gun laws since 1968 are bad, but many were clear attempts to punish people who we now call in the gun culture but would never even think about committing a crime with their guns.

For the record, as a gun owner, Democrat, and NRA member, I reject the nonsensical, hyperbolic, and even false rhetoric coming out of the NRA these days, but I seek to change the NRA from within.

[Mojorabbit]

29. Great post. nt

[friendly_iconoclast]

36. Feh. Moyers has been trying for decades to make up for being a hatchet man for LBJ.

Granted, he publicly renounced the war in 1967- but that does not erase the past.

[Hoyt]

39. Back in 1968 people weren't as calloused and ready to shoot people.

Today you've got your Tbaggers and libertarians who are ready to kill poor people for just about any half-assed reasons , and even some liberals are attracted to guns for dubious reasons.

[hack89]

46. Murder rate in 1968 = 6.9 per 100,000. Murder rate in 2010 = 4.8

As you were saying.

[permatex]

54. I don't think Hoyt has ever gotten anything correct

regarding RKBA or firearms.
I hope one day he will actually do some research before posting.

[MisterP]

26. Moyers > racists fearing some inevitable Helter Skelter and insane Navy washout who never saw combat

[locks]

31. NRA's hold

Thanks for posting Moyers. In Colorado, we know that reforming gun laws is the third rail in politics, especially in the West. We also know that Obama was right when he said bitter and frustrated citizens cling to their guns and religion. in the National Review today David Gelernter writes "A whole generation has been reared, in many parts of society, without the moral compass of biblical religion." Texan Repub Louie Gohmert immediately said "there is a connection between this incident and ongoing attacks on Judeo-Christian beliefs." The biblical religion they refer to is not religion that tells us God hates violence, turn your swords into ploughshares, nor the peacemaking Jesus taught which would make us sons of God. It is the "American religion" that God and the Constitution demand violence and war. As long as our citizens hear and see these lies 24/7 there is little hope for reasonable discussion about gun laws or of breaking the NRA's sad hold on our citizens and their representatives.

[vanlandingham]

56. WE NEED AN ASSAULT WEAPONS BAN NOW

If assault weapons were banned less would be available and many criminals would not have access. BUT THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE IN AURORA – the kid was not a criminal until he gained access to his assault weapon.

Americans have the right to feel safe without the requirement of arming themselves just as Americans have the right to bear arms.

[permatex]

59. Correction

He was not a criminal when he gained access to his AR-15 semi auto rifle, he became a criminal as soon as he started to build his bombs in his apartment.

[AlinPA]

64. And his thousands of rounds of ammunition. He knew he was going to shoot a lot of people.