Would the USA be better today if we had just let the South secede?

[Calculating]

Sometimes I feel like fighting to keep the South may have been a bad idea. I mean really, what have they ever brought our country? Ignorance, racism, anti-scientific thinking, etc. It's so bad that it's likely Moore will actually win Al. Tribal thinking absolutely dictates their way of life, and they would literally vote for Satan himself if it meant keeping a evil pro-choice liberal out of office.

[RainCaster]

1. Yes but...

... That's not who we are as a country.

[First Speaker]

2. No. The end of slavery was more than worth it...

...and a united America was the only thing that could have brought down the Axis Powers, or finally prevailed in the Cold War. I share your frustration, but I thank God secession failed...

[DFW]

81. A CSA could well have ended up an ally of the Axis powers

No, thanks!

[FarCenter]

3. Best case would have been to win the War of 1812 and lose the Civil War.

Northern half of the US plus Canada would make a great country.

[janx]

4. Hell no!

Ever been to N'awlins?

[irisblue]

51. Word

[melman]

5. 'what have they ever brought our country'

Blues and rock n roll for a start.

[Hekate]

12. Jazz and several good Democratic presidents, as well

[ret5hd]

14. and hominy.

[LeftInTX]

41. Eww!!!!

Don't need the South for that.....

[janx]

53. You don't like hominy?

It's just corn.

Have you tasted posole?

[LeftInTX]

71. Yes, it is one of the better foods with hominy

I think the other ingredients make it better

Hominy has a strange smell.

I can't explain it, but it is a bit pungent for a grain. Cooked hominy by itself is yuk. I also don't like grits unless they're smothered with butter and a bit of sweetener.

For some reason I prefer cornmeal.

[DrDan]

93. many fine authors

[GoCubsGo]

100. And, Stephen Colbert, Eartha Kitt, George Clooney, Ellen DeGeners, Oprah,

Morgan Freeman, Patton Oswalt, Julia Roberts, Jennifer Lawrence, Chris Rock, Azis Ansari, and a whole slew of others, a few who were/are world-changers

(Yes, I know Stephen was born in DC, but he grew up in SC.)

[DrDan]

101. Faulkner, Thomas Wolfe, Tennessee Williams, Eudora Welty, Harper Lee . . .

the OP really shows his lack of understanding and knowledge when he asks what the South has contributed

I can't shake the t-word when I read his OP and subsequent doubling-down

[GoCubsGo]

102. Well, having lived in the South for over 30 years,

I admit that I have often felt the same way as the OP. I still do, at times. I have to remind myself that any place that can produce the likes of a Stephen Colbert or a Jimmy Carter is not a place to write off. I have seen positive changes over the years I have lived here. Some parts of it are just changing faster than others.

[DrDan]

103. been here 34 years . . . no intention of leaving

Change is happening all over - some good, some bad. Who would have thought we could have lost Pa, Michigan, WI, Ohio.

I see problems with where I live . . . problems with elected leaders. That can . . . and will change. Probably slowly, but it will swing.

To bash the whole region is naïve and bigoted.

[sarisataka]

6. Let's ask

Southern POC

[janterry]

7. Not for black people

so - that's a big no, not better. Moreover, the importance of the USA (all of us) on the world stage during and after the 2 'world wars' can't be underestimated.

OTOH, I do think some parts of the country would be better off - if they were little countries. New England, for instance - would be doing just fine.

[TDale313]

65. The West Coast, too.

We in the Blue States are being seriously targeted in this tax bill, for example. Natural disasters? We’re on our own anyway. We were already paying more in Federal taxes than we get back. Frankly, supporting Dumbfuckistan is getting pretty old.

[SeaDoo77]

83. That's The Way I See It Too

If they wan't to be dumb as dirt racist conservative Satan worshiping fake Kristianz I don't need to fund their shi*hole trailer parks, and cherchuz.

[HoustonDave]

163. I see!

So you are a bigoted racist poo-flinger... change a few of those adjectives to their polar opposite and you, too, could lead your very own Klavern.

[Yupster]

8. It's an interesting question

Of the 600,000 people killed in the war, how many of them would have become great inventors, artists, business-men?

I am sure that the world would have been better off if the US would have stayed out of World War I though.

[demmiblue]

9. ...

[Hekate]

10. Not for enslaved black Americans it wouldn't.Just because morons begot morons who want to bring back

...the "good old days" when a white man was legally acknowledged to be superior to black men and all women of any color, doesn't mean it was not worth fighting to end slavery and hold the Union together.

The South, be it remembered, gave us several excellent Democratic presidents in the 20th century.

[dalton99a]

106. Well, the North is much better because it gave us a fantastic president out of NYC

the greatest, bestest, ever

[Hekate]

109. Point. And California gave us Richard Nixon. Pardon me while I barf

[dalton99a]

111. and the vile demented asshole Reagan

[Sophia4]

11. For white Northerners, it would have been better.

But not for African-Americans. Not for those who were then enslaved.

I would like to have a country without the Southern states, but slavery is a horror. Can't be allowed; shouldn't be allowed anywhere.

The Civil War was really about slavery.

[Calculating]

15. Wasn't slavery gonna die off anyway though?

Might have taken a while longer, but eventually automation and mechanized manufacturing were gonna make the practice uneconomical. While it's good that we ended slavery, I'm thinking about the big picture throughout the history of our nation. We've basically been stuck with a group of states who are still disgruntled to this day and still screw us over in national elections. Nixon, Reagan, GWB, and now Trump were mostly the result of ignorant/bigoted southern states. Think about it, southern states lead the nation in racism, poverty, ignorance, religious intolerance, poor education, poor health, etc. When you have some total idiots in your group who WANT to leave, it might be best to just let them go sometimes.

[Sophia4]

17. They sure gobble up California tax money. Leaches, they are.

[cwydro]

50. Hey Sophia, it is spelled leeches.

Not leaches.

I’m from the south and know how to spell.

Bless your heart.

[Sophia4]

57. I went to high school in the South.

Leaching (chemistry), the process of extracting substances from a solid by dissolving them in a liquid

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaching

noun (leech)
1.
any bloodsucking or carnivorous aquatic or terrestrial worm of the class Hirudinea, certain freshwater species of which were formerly much used in medicine for bloodletting.
2.
a person who clings to another for personal gain, especially without giving anything in return, and usually with the implication or effect of exhausting the other's resources; parasite.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/leech

Both apply. The Southern states, especially with this new tax bill, are extracting the substance of money from solid wage-earners in states like California.

Or if you prefer, the Southern states are clinging to Californians and others in prosperous states for personal gain, giving nothing in return. They are parasitic.

Either spelling describes the parasitic conduct I intended.

I like leach because it reminds me of bleach and the Southern love of people and things who are white.

As I said, I went to high school in the South. Worst schools in the country. Believe me.

[Sophia4]

68. The bitterness is due to the backwardness of the Southerners I knew.

I was there pre-60s, pre-integration.

Little did they know that my great-great-grandfather had fought for the Union in the Civil War.

I did not date until I was out of high school (I was a couple of years younger than other students in my high school class).

My experience made me bitter about the racism, the ignorance and the pride in that racism and ignorance that was a daily part of life in the South. I was so happy to return to the North for college, graduate school and real life beyond the limited view from the South.

If Alabama elects Roy Moore, all of America will find out what I am talking about in this post.

Bunch of ignorant, prejudiced folk -- Southerners.

I do wish our Union did not have to put up with them.

Eudora Welty, Mark Twain, William Faulkner and Tennessee Williams excepted, of course.

[DrDan]

113. I live in the South - have for the past 34 years

For years I would travel north to New Jersey monthly. I also traveled quite often to Denver, New York, Pittsburgh, Kansas City and many other cities in the North.

It would never enter my mind to group folks from these states homogeneously and assume there are no differences among them. I would never denigrate them simply because they live in and are associated with their particular state or region. It is their choice to live there and I respect it. My choice is to live south.

So my question is . . . what drives folks like yourself to insult and offend southerners.

ok - so I understand your point about racism. So why not bash the southern racists? or better yet, racists in general.

But no . . . you lash out at all Southerners.

"Bunch of ignorant, prejudiced folk -- Southerners.
I do wish our Union did not have to put up with them."

It is disturbing to find this attitude so prevalent on this supposedly liberal/progressive site.

Oh well . . .

[Sophia4]

116. Having lived among them.

There are nice Southerners, but they are few and far between.

Watch what happens in Alabama with this blowhard, Roy Moore.

And look at what happened to Don Siegelman.

It isn't just racism. It's sick social values. That's why Conservatives do so well there.

Again, I agree, there are some very good Southerners. But they are a minority with little power. And the lack of power or even voice of Southerners who care about the poor and the weak speaks loudly about the corruption and crudeness of the South.

Please do read the book, Strangers in Their Own Land.

It tells the story of the South. How the people are tricked into living in an unhealthy environment. It's ugly.

[DrDan]

119. wow

"nice Southerners . . . few and far between"
"lived among them" . . . . "them"
"sick social values"
"corruption and crudeness of the South"

"ugly" . . . . exactly how I would describe your words

[Sophia4]

121. The South almost entirely votes Republican.

The Republican Party is ugly. And energetically embraced by the South.

Enough said.

Sorry for the small minority of people with decent values who live there.

One of my memories: my high school American history class in which we never got passed the discussion of the "War Between the States."

And then there were the discussions of states' rights in government class.

I have quite a few really depressing stories like that.

Never got beyond plant reproduction in my biology class.

I'm sure things have improved somewhat by now, but the Republicans and the ignorant are still pretty much in charge. If somehow Roy Moore loses in Alabama, I'll believe that change is happening.

The news from the Virginia elections last month gave me some hope. But it's been a long time since I lived there, and the adoration of the rebel flag, the Civil War loser statues, etc. cause me to believe that it is the same old, same old.

And the sense of social class divisions that perhaps arose from the economy and culture so deeply dependent on slavery and the racism of slavery seems to still dominate in the South from what I read about it.

[ClarendonDem]

140. The mountain states and midwest almost entirely vote Republican too

They are at least as Republican-oriented as the south.

[Sophia4]

141. Wasn't always that way. The South is the center of the conservative

movement. The Midwest has joined in since industry there was moved to the South and overseas. The Midwest is reacting to job losses. The South is just . . . .you fill in the blank. You probably know it better than I. Any derogatory adjective will do.

[ClarendonDem]

143. So you think Idaho

Or Utah, or North Dakota, or Nebraska are less conservative than any southern state? You understand that California was a bastion of conservatism for decades until the 90s?

[Sophia4]

144. They are all conservative, but not slave states, not racist.

Not nearly as ultra-right conservative as states like Alabama, Mississippi.

The Western states have few people, low populations. Their conservatism is more that of isolated individuals in hostile climates.

[quickesst]

75. "Both apply"

Dead wrong. Having been gone from the south for so long, I thought you would have been a genius by now



leach
lēCH/Submit
verb
(with reference to a soluble chemical or mineral) drain away from soil, ash, or similar material by the action of percolating liquid, especially rainwater.
"the nutrient is quickly leached away"
synonyms: drain, filter, percolate, seep, filtrate, strain
"the chemicals leach into our drinking water"
subject (soil, ash, etc.) to a leaching process.

[Sophia4]

78. leachers -- things that leach, people that drain, filter, etc. people

who leach what is valuable from the environment.

Have you read the book, Strangers in Their Own Land.

It's about the way that the people of Southern Louisiana accept the leaching of chemicals into their water and damage to their environment caused by corporations.

It's really a must-read if you want to know the truth about the South.

[Sophia4]

107. States like Alabama and Louisiana would love to leach the wealth from

California.

That's what those Southern states do. Take from economically powerful states and then elect backwards, ignorant representatives and senators to the US legislature

It's a crying shame, and the inevitable result of backward Southern education.

If a Steve Jobs lived in Alabama, he would never develop a strong company. The Southern culture doesn't allow for that kind of creativity. It is hellbent on maintaining the status quo. Even the creative use of a word, even if that creativity could be interpreted as a mistake, is to be squelched by the South.

I recall the repressive culture very clearly.

The only southern city that anything good comes from is Atlanta as far as I can tell.

[quickesst]

122. Look...

.... I understand your argument but the north is not quite the Garden of Eden you seem to think it is. The south is starting to trend Democratic. It is a long process and I won't be alive to see it completed, but to see it happening is enough for me. You keep insisting that you know the South, but the South you see, from what I can tell, is a south of the 1950's. It's 2017. What bothers me the most is the readiness of some people to write off millions of Democrats, and POC, who are as a majority, are Democrats, as collateral damage in their quest for the northern Utopia they crave so much. You mentioned it, but more in a "too bad for them" sort of way. For the record, I was born in the south, I live in the south, I'll die in the south and I love being here. I may have to suffer my share of fools, prejudice, and ignorance, but the one thing I don't have to suffer is having to look up to see the bottom of someone's nose. Well worth it.

[Sophia4]

125. Actually, I now live in California lived in Europe for years.

I'm happy to hear you say that the South is beginning to wise up, but it has been 50 some years since I lived there, and far too many Southerners still defend the Confederate flag and the statues of the military honchos who led them to defeat in the Civil War. My ancestors fought and died for the Union and against slavery in the Civil War. And too many Southerners, in their hearts, are still fighting that war.

It has been only 70 some years since WWII, but having lived in Germany and Austria, I can tell you that the Germans and Austrians have left their NAZI pasts behind to a far, far greater extent than Southerners have left their antebellum, slavery culture behind.

It's very sad.

I'm glad to see that very slow progress is being made. The South is holding the entire country back. And the Midwest and some Northern states are falling into the same conservative trap.

[quickesst]

142. Okay fair enough

I suppose we can go back and forth like this for quite some time but getting getting back to the original issue of whether the South should have been allowed to secede from the Union, I would say no because of two possibilities. First possibility is that we might have ended up with an ally of a nation that was an adversary. Secondly if secession would have succeeded, there would have been a good possibility that the Civil War would have eventually taken place anyway, only with more advanced and destructive weapons at hand. It is what it is and what we need to do is to make sure that the Democratic trend continues even if it is long after we are gone. Too many good people down here to write them off. Carry the burden. It will pay off for future generations in the end . Thanks for the conversation.

[madinmaryland]

132. Fucking Nazi!!! Grammar Nazi, that is...

[Jim Lane]

85. That's far from clear

Why should mechanized manufacturing undermine slavery? Today in the United States, an employer pays the worker a wage, out of which the worker pays for the necessities of life and (sometimes) has some left over. Take those same jobs and fill them with slaves, under a legal system that protects slavery. Now the employer (who has become a slaveowner) incurs the expenses of the necessities of life, but has no need to provide more, and of course can provide a much cheaper standard of living in such aspects as the quality of the food, clothing, and shelter.

It's hard for me to conceive of slavery persisting into the 21st century. The problem is that it's also hard to conceive how to get from there (independent CSA as of 1861, with slavery a bedrock of its society and laws) to here. An abolitionist movement in the CSA would have been up against formidable economic and political odds.

[janterry]

90. Apartheid

The white southerners would have held on for as long as they could (and in the example of Apartheid - well, long was very long indeed).

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

161. why don't you look up how long apartheid actually lasted

Apartheid was a monumental failure and doomed from it's inception.

[DrDan]

92. is your intent to divide DUers with these offensive broad-brush posts?

A little introspection into your insecurities might be warranted.

[Hekate]

110. It would have lost its economic viability, but left the social and legal construct in place. Go Away

[delisen]

13. You mean like the people in Wisconsin who voted Trump?

Lots of satan voters in the north too.

But- in hindsight, maybe there were things that could have been done after the war and on up through the 1900s.

As for the rest of the country, being anti-slavery did not translate into being pro equality or non-racist.

[Sophia4]

79. I have never seen, in the North, the kinds of shot-gun houses, the dire poverty

of African-Americans that I saw in the South when I lived there in the 1950s.

Most Southerners did not see that. I saw it because of my father's work.

[standingtall]

16. OH,WI,PA and MI

all went for Trump in the last election. The Midwest is trending right while the south is inching it's way towards Democrats So no.
What about the west Montana,Utah,Wyoming,North Dakota,South Dakota etc?

[magicarpet]

29. Stolen elections are not won.......OH,WI,PA and MI.....

..... were "won" (?) by tr-dump because of Cross Check Voter Suppression by Kris Kobach

snip/Palast:

Crosscheck in action:  

Trump victory margin in Michigan:                    13,107
Michigan Crosscheck purge list:                       449,922

Trump victory margin in Arizona:                       85,257
Arizona Crosscheck purge list:                           270,824

Trump victory margin in North Carolina:        177,008
North Carolina Crosscheck purge list:              589,349

end Snip/Palast

http://www.gregpalast.com/rolling-stone-expose-gops-secret-plan-steal-vote/



----------------------------


snip

Crosscheck/Brennan Center Justice - NY Uni - School of Law.

One of Kobach’s farthest reaching projects is a multi-state program he runs through his office: the Interstate Voter Registration Crosscheck (IVRC), a database meant to identify people who may be registered in multiple states. On its face, IVRC serves the reasonable goal of helping states keep their voter rolls up to date. But in practice, Kobach’s leadership has led IVRC to be more useful as a tool for justifying voting restrictions than as a way to accurately maintain registration.

snip

And with Kobach at the helm, IVRC has produced problematic results. Its methods lead to false positives — like in Pennsylvania, where the system reported more than 300,000 potential double voters.[72] In that case, Kobach reportedly conceded there were issues.[73] The system also has been found to over-represent minority voters. A Rolling Stone investigation asked a database expert to review IVRC records from certain states. He found the system flagged one in six Latinos, one in seven Asian Americans, and one in nine African Americans as potential double registrants in the states examined.[74]

https://www.brennancenter.org/blog/uncovering-kris-kobach’s-anti-voting-history

[magicarpet]

35. This is why this Kris Kobach Fascist Pig......

...... is trying to get his hands on the voter registration info from all 50 states.

More voter suppression on a massive scale for tr-dump before his second term election 2020.

-------

snip

The chair of President Trump's Election Integrity Commission has penned a letter to all 50 states requesting their full voter-roll data, including the name, address, date of birth, party affiliation, last four Social Security number digits and voting history back to 2006 of potentially every voter in the state.

link

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/06/29/trumps-voter-fraud-commission-wants-to-know-the-voting-history-party-id-and-address-of-every-voter-in-america/

------------------------

He wants to compile his fraudulent Crosscheck list for all American voters to suppress even more voters so tr-dump can win re-election come 2020.

And also so this voter registration info can be added to the Mercer - Cambridge Analytic Data Base to mine, analyze, then micro target voters with bogus news stories in the hopes to again sway voters. Then share the data info with the Russians so they and their covert Intel army of bots can toss the 2020 election for tr-dump again.

[ClarendonDem]

37. No

There's no evidence that supports the claim Trump won because of voter fraud. And the link doesn't support that argument.

[Merlot]

46. There's a difference between "voter fraud" and voter suppression

voter fraud doesn't really exist, for one thing.

voter suppression is very real and effects the outcome of elections.

[magicarpet]

60. There is election fraud too....

..... This is where the administrators of the election do something unscrupulous to rig an election for their preferred candidate that forces the other candidate to lose. They try to make the election look legitimate but an audit, if it can be done, would likely prove otherwise.

As you say, voter fraud is another example of election tampering. This is perpetrated when the voter by one means or the other casts a ballot or multiple ballots but lacked the legal right do do so.

Voter fraud is very rare. But voter fraud has become a hot button issue with Republicans because if they falsely contend voter fraud is rampant, this give them license to formulate voter suppression efforts under the guise they are instituting voter fraud protections.

But in reality they are ramping up voter suppression and schemes of voter disenfranchisement because that is their real goal - there was no voter fraud occurring initially.

They use voter fraud as a convenient excuse to block voters from the opposing political party and deny them the ability to cast their ballot in very conniving and unscrupulous methods.

[tirebiter]

18. The concept that slavery would've ended anyway is at best speculative.

Arizona and New Mexico are/were below the Mason Dixon line and there were plans to make them slave states. Hell, the slave owners were herding their "property" into Texas near the end of the war of northern aggression and it wasn't really ended until 1867 there. Juneteenth. Further there were plans to take more of Mexico and beyond to expand room for legal slavery. Southern white people were too lazy to give it up.

[dixiegrrrrl]

19. Your question needs defining...

what do you mean by "the South"???

do you mean the original succession states?

Do you mean all anti-war, antislavery people in the South?

Lots of babies tossed out with that bathwater.

Lazy thinking says "the South is not worth putting up with"

Intelligent thinking asks..."how can we help the Dems and other groups who are NOT Republicans.?"

the problem is not the South. It is the people who now control those states. THAT can be changed.

[GusBob]

20. I have never ever seen an OP like this on DU like never before

:roll eyes:

[ClarendonDem]

21. This is a silly question

Which states do you want to give away - Florida, Virginia, North Carolina? Should we keep West Virginia, a solid Republican state that broke off from Virginia because the citizens supported the Union? What about Wisconsin, a Union state that voted for Trump?

I honestly think this type of question is designed to divide DU members and Americans more generally.

[ProudLib72]

22. No!

And furthermore, there should have been a list of southern concessions a mile long, but Grant was in a hurry and wanted quick reconciliation. I'm not sure what Lincoln thought of Grant's deal, and I wonder what he might have done if he had lived.

Number one concession should have been: NO GODDAMNED CONFEDERATE STATUES!!!!

[magicarpet]

39. Correct - ProudLib72......

Allowing these treasonous Confederate Army soldiers and generals to be placed on a pedestal as heroes was a major mistake.

The Daughters of the Confederacy should have been told to shut the fuck up and sit down. No you can not perpetuate racial divisions, discord, and discrimination with your bogus hero statues. Those men were not heroes but treasonous murderers. What they did we should not be celebrating or memorializing. They should be shamed for what they did, what they fought for, and how many were killed for the unjust cause to preserve slavery.

This issue should have been put to rest long ago but these modern day KkK Fascist white supremacists now have the audacity to call this act of treason a "preservation of their heritage" issue.

Bullshit - it was raw racism then, it is raw racism now, and when ever they gather for their "heritage" confabs they march under the Confederate and Nazi flags where Nazi slogans and Nazi salutes are more common than not.

Alt-Right (Wingers) - get real - they are fucking Nazis and Fascists - PERIOD.

If that is their "heritage" - it is our obligation to humiliate them every chance we get, certainly not to honor them.

[gladium et scutum]

123. Grant was following Lincoln's direction

At their last meeting, Grant asked Lincoln how he should handle the Confederate Army if it surrendered. Lincoln's response was "go easy on them". Grant did as Lincoln wanted him to do.

[ProudLib72]

124. I get the point of reconciliation

Last edited Mon Dec 4, 2017, 08:04 PM - Edit history (1)

But you know there would have been a difference between the way Lincoln would have handled reconciliation and the way Johnson did handle it.

Yes, I made the mistake in my original post of making it sound like the Appomattox terms of surrender was the one and only document that determined reconciliation. I know it wasn't as simple as that. I just like to think of it as the starting point in a list of failures. Maybe you will be able to tell me the answer to this: Did Johnson use that treaty as precedent to go easy on the southern states? He managed to do some nasty things before being impeached.

[gladium et scutum]

127. Appomattox was not a treaty

General Lee surrendered the Army of Northern Virginia to General Grant on General Grants terms. Nothing more. It had no political implications or significance. The terms Grant offered Lee would be the same terms that General Sherman offered General Johnson when he surrendered his Army. President Johnson's dealing with the defeated Confederacy were a wholly separate issue.

[ProudLib72]

146. I edited that

Yes, wrong word. I am sticking with my belief that Johnson's brand of reconstruction exacerbated the problem.

[gladium et scutum]

148. You are correct in that respect

I believe Lincoln's approach would have produced better outcome for our nation.

[cry baby]

23. Broad-brush much?

There are plenty of good liberals in all the southern states. We fight with all we have. We try to open eyes and sometimes we succeed.

There are also plenty of common sense, moderate conservatives that are willing to listen and have civil conversations.

There is ignorance and racism and religious extremism fucking everywhere.

South bashing sucks.

[nolabear]

24. DAMN Im sick of this stuff!

It’s the oldest part of the country, the most European, Caribbean, Mexican, African American, Asian part, the richest in music, food, literature and culture that the rest of the country gets to lay claim to. The Native Americans in the south made life possible for the European settlers before they were sent off to die on reservations. The rivers carried the trade and economic goods. The ports were for the first hundred and fifty years the most active.

I could go on but I’m just bloody tired of the whole two dimensional bullshit view thatvmistakes the loud and the stupid for the entirety. It’s lazy, smug thinking that separates people from looking at the beams in their own eyes.

[janx]

42. Music, food, literature, culture--

So true! My N'awlins comment was too sparse.

Our Southern writers are among the best this country has to offer. The music of the South, as some of pointed out here, has led to some of the greatest music on our planet. The food--oh my God.

I have canoed in a bayou, with alligator bubbles coming up from below. I have experienced Faulkner bookstore readings as a writer in New Orleans. I've dived a wreck off the coast of Florida. The music--Southern music that came from African American culture and Caribbean culture--has led to our free blues and rock and roll, picked up by other countries.

You are right. It is lazy, two-dimensional bullshit that leads to this way of thinking.

[Tipperary]

56. This is one of the ugliest threads I have seen on this site. What a shame.

Thank you for your post because you said it much better than I could. What idiotic ignorant thinking. I wonder what perfect area of the country the op lives in? Some of the other posts in this thread have amazed me, I had no idea there was this much prejudice amongst duers.

I think this op’s name fits him to a T

[DrDan]

94. the t-word comes to mind . . .

[Tipperary]

97. It certainly does. Reading over this thread, I can see several who want to divide.

Do you think they are aware how obvious they are?

[DrDan]

99. it can be ugly here at times. Folks who claim to be liberal/progressive making these statements are

baffling. Long ago, bashing people from different regions of the country was not allowed here. Not sure why that changed. It is nothing more than blatant bigotry.

Same with ageism. Many seem blind to their own bigotry with respect that as well.

[Hoyt]

25. If we are speculating, I wish we had lost Revolutionary War, we'd have England's health system. n/t.

[Sneederbunk]

26. We should be cultivating southern Democrats, not insulting them.

[d_r]

27. what if

Hitler makes A bomb before we do?

[dawg]

28. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

[GulfCoast66]

30. This shit again...

You must be tired of the Hillary/Bernie shit stirring and going for the hate the south Shit stirring.

Al the while pretending that Wisconsin, Indiana, Ohio, Iowa, Kansas and Pennsylvania are bastions of Blue.

Well bless your heart. Nice try.

[cwydro]

52. I know, right?

And it looks like a hit and run OP as well.

Trashing thread.

[Crunchy Frog]

31. Yes.

[jalan48]

32. They would have joined back up with England. All that aristocratic privilege.

[moondust]

33. One might imagine

that if Lincoln had known 150+ years ago that much of the Confederacy would continue clinging to Confederate symbols, monuments, bigotry, and rebellious attitudes toward the federal government for 150+ years he might have opted to let them go. Eventually the Union states and the rest of the civilized world might have been able to "modernize" the Confederacy similar to the way the world dealt with the apartheid regime in South Africa: economic divestment, boycotts, etc. Of course leaving the Confederacy intact would have also risked it spreading farther north and especially farther west to territories that were then "open" to slavery. Tough call.

https://www.learner.org/series/biographyofamerica/prog10/maps/index.html

[denbot]

34. Fuck no!

They needed, and deserved that asskicking!

[Alea]

115. Yep, them Southern Democrats were totally out of hand n/t

[denbot]

130. It wasnt them being democrats, it was the amoral inhumanity.

But that’s not how the Nazi/KKK bunch like to portray it, which is something I am absolutely certain you are quite familiar with.

[Alea]

133. Sorry I triggered you

My post is sarcasm for the absurdity of the OP and the reply I replied to.

I'm from the South, and I'm sick of the hate for the South being displayed and supported on DU recently.

[denbot]

139. Im currently in the South, Midway GA.

When I was a young man I was stationed in VA on a ship that was manned by at least 60% southerners. Coming from So Cal, with my ancestry Native American, to that southern “culture”, and seeing how that ”heritage” influenced how they reacted to interpersonal situations based on first, what was your skin color, secondly by what region of the country you came from, and lastly just how much distain you were willing to display to your own shipmates. And no, not all southern males behaves as such, but over half of them did act like racist assholes.

As a trucker I’m around much the same types of people. For a while I thought things were getting better, the the last two years has proven that a false hope.

Why don’t you tell me that’s not how the MAJORITY of southern rural males act anymore?

BTW Honest observations are not bashing.

[Alea]

150. Sir, it is changing.

Growing up here, and in school, I rarely saw racism. Rarely heard the "n" word. I joined the Army at 17 and served 8 years. I experienced some racism but on a whole, very little. They just don't put up with it. While deployed I never saw it. At least not in any of the units I was with. When I got out last year I started college and most of the people I know are not racist, and are quick to call out racist statements as such. I'm not saying it doesn't exist but it certainly isn't the way it use to be as my parents describe it. Maybe it's older people and old idealism in the South, and maybe it's aging out. Hopefully.

One thing that worries me with the moore/jones election is that most of the voters will be older. Most of the people I associate with at school are not voting. I've tried to convince them to go vote but they just don't seem to be interested. Unless the young people go vote I think moore will win : (

[denbot]

154. That was both my hope and understanding.

An exception I almost wrote into my last reply was to add education to the exception. Nearly all of my friends and acquaintances have at least some college in their background. Of those people overt racism is all but nil.

Unfortunately the people I’m often interacting with are quite different face to face, and stunningly hateful while hiding behind a CB microphone.

You might well be correct in feeling that there are many around here that still see the south as the bastion of racial hatred, and ignorance. I imagine that too will be slow to change.

If it’s any consolation, to be from California is to be a lighting rod for redneck ire, a badge I wear proudly.

Alea, please accept my apology for my hamhanded response, and check out our DU Veteran’s forum should you ever feel the urge.
Peace,
denbot.

[Alea]

158. Thanks denbot. I took no offense to anything you said.

I was probably a little curt with my first statement to you in fact. I'm new here, sort of new to politics, and still trying to find my way. I've been called a russian bot, troll, comrade, and all the names people use when a new member with a low post count gets called if they don't echo with the chamber appropriately, and sometimes I don't react well to it. I have to keep in mind the suspicions people here may have of new members, and sometimes rightfully so.

You mentioned CB radio in your truck and the hateful things people say on it. My Dad has always had a base station radio and use to keep one in his vehicles. As I was growing up I could always hear it in the background at our house and heard the most vile disgusting talk coming out of that thing. Most of the people he talked to were normal people, but there were some that were just plain scary, and definitely racist. I can imagine what you hear driving on the roads every day. In our area very few people talk on the radio anymore. He has a few old steady friends that chat early in the morning but I guess all the idiots and trouble makers went to twitter to harass people.

[LonePirate]

36. Every political problem in the country today traces its roots back to Confederate political ideology

The Civil War was necessary. I'm just not sure it is over.

[GulfCoast66]

43. Oh bullshit!

Slavery predates the US not to mention the confederacy.

So 10 of the 11 confed states voted for Trump. How many ‘Union’ states did?

But I guess we all need scapegoats to blame. Like all those midwestern and mountain state trump voters are not as bad cause their ancestors did not defend slavery?

[LonePirate]

48. Slavery is not a modern US problem but go ahead and take offense any way.

[janx]

64. Good point. n/t

[blueinredohio]

38. No because I was born in Virginia (Appalachians) where there are no jobs to

speak of and abject poverty.If the south would have seceded my parents couldn't have moved to Ohio where there were jobs and unions. I for one am grateful it ended the way it did.

[WinkyDink]

40. Well, I'm a Democrat from PA, so my answer might be a tad biased.

[janx]

55. Why? n/t

[WinkyDink]

86. Gee, hmm....Because I wouldn't live anywhere below the Mason-Dixon Line?

[ClarendonDem]

104. Good thing PA was so enlightened

That it didn’t vote for Trump. Wait, what, it did, and my southern state of Virginia went for HRC? Who would’ve thought.

[struggle4progress]

44. The last black America elected to Congress in the nineteenth century

was George Henry White of NC; and after he left Congress, almost three decades passed until another black, Oscar De Priest, was elected to the US House from IL

"The South" is no political monolith; and stereotypes don't help us think clearly. Hispanic lesbian Guadalupe Valdez has been thrice elected sheriff of Dallas county in TX; that has historically been a conservative area, but maybe if we stop spouting lazy generalities and do the hard ground-game work, the facts will turn differently than we might expect

[Tipperary]

58. I think of stereotyping as a right wing go-to. I find it sad to see here.

I did not expect the kind of ugliness and prejudice I am reading in this thread. It makes me wonder at the intention of the op.

[krispos42]

45. If they wanted to secede, or currently want to...

...introduce a bill into Congress and let the debate begin. Ask permission to leave the Union. At this point, the other 39 states just might say "yes".

[oberliner]

47. What an awful post

I'm speechless.

[janx]

54. Agreed.

It comes from ignorance.

[cwydro]

49. Ah, a good old south-bashing thread.

It’s been awhile.

[Cary]

59. A little off point but the thing that confounds me the most:

People who grew up as Reform Jews in a 95% Jewish neighborhood now identifying as neo-confederate.

[gordianot]

62. My opinion of those who would allow secession matches those who want to secede.

When reality sets in secession is not an option.

My answer is NO.

[mcar]

63. This again?

When did PA, WI and MI become part of the South?

[DBoon]

66. No

Which side do you think that racist militaristic society would have taken in WWII?

Imagine the CSA supporting the Nazis, or even just being neutral (like Falangist Spain)?

Imagine the Luftwaffe having planes in Virginia in 1940, as part of a neutrality agreement?

[nini]

67. So do we have to move Idaho, North Dakota etc.. down there

[gopiscrap]

69. YES!!!!!!!

[world wide wally]

70. Lincoln was just too benevolent to them after we kicked their asses

[Caliman73]

73. Lincoln was dead before the war ended.

While his plans for reconciliation were likely too lenient, we will never know because he was not the President when the war ended. His vice president Andrew Johnson became president. Johnson was pretty horrible on Reconstruction, likely worse than Lincoln would have been.

[Hekate]

72. What is it you are Calculating with your hit and run, pot stirring OP?

It's stereotyping and divisive and generally not helpful. We all have those days of frustration and anger, but they pass and reason returns.

[elehhhhna]

96. Russian

[Hekate]

108. Name it. It stinks.

[Caliman73]

74. I am with the majority. The answer is not No, but Hell No.

You can argue that not enough was done to give Black people their rights and reform the South after the war, but to think that allowing a sizable portion of territory to just go, then having an adversary on along most of your southern border, would have made the United States a substantially weaker country. Not to mention that while the North had abolished slavery before the South, there were still enormous problems with racism, discrimination, and racial inequality, so the problems while likely deeper in the South, were not isolated to the South.

[MattP]

77. The mistake was having a racist pig as Lincoln's VP

Andrew Johnson srill the worst but Trump is closing fast

[gladium et scutum]

147. You mean the President

that signed the 13th & 14th Amendments to the Constitution of the United States, That President?

[MattP]

162. Presidents don't sign amendments and he campaignd against them

Do you know why he was impeached

[gladium et scutum]

164. Thank, did not know that,

If I remember correctly Johnson opposed the Congress in their radical reconstruction policies after the war. Particularly his attempt to remove Edwin Stanton as Secretary of War.

[former9thward]

149. No, segregationist Woodrow Wilson, was the worst.

[JI7]

80. no, especially not the black people who lived there.

[MarcA]

82. The important question is not what about then but what about Now.

When a consistent Majority differs significantly socially and politically
from another, it is not about bashing one or the other but just the
realization that they would perhaps be better off separated. Of course, if
actions are not taken reasonably then States would start dividing and
on and on until it ends up being a Balkanized situation. I was thinking
more along the lines of the Velvet Revolution in the breakup of
Czechoslovakia into the Czech Republic and Slovakia. That of course
was a much smaller sample.

[MFM008]

84. I was born in VA.

There are good people in the south that loathe maggot as much as we do.
I support them as they support us.

[Hekate]

88. My best friend has deep, deep Southern roots...

We both grew up fairly poor haoles on O'ahu, met at University of Hawai'i and formed an unbreakable bond. Ultimately I ended up in SoCal and she ended up in Virginia, working in DC, retiring to Florida. I never understood why she went back to the South until I read Jim Webb's "Born Fighting," at which point I realized the depths of my lifelong personal ignorance.

Yes, MFM008, there are good people there, and one of them I love like a sister. I loathe stereotyping -- and as much as I sometimes slip up in the heat of the moment, I try to bring myself back to clarity. The OP is stupid and divisive.

[Stand and Fight]

87. Disgusting question and insensitive as hell to boot. n/t

[democratisphere]

89. The USA should have been divided into at least 4-6 individual countries long ago.

The size of the USA is too much to handle under one government. The population is too large and the people have extremely different beliefs, values and ideas.

[ClarendonDem]

137. No

Are you a Russian plant?

[DrDan]

91. you do know there are some us living in the south because we like it

and we support Dems with money, hours of work, and with votes.

We do not need nor appreciate these posts. They do nothing to improve our situation.

(and tribalism works on both sides. There was plenty of support here for Weiner as his peccadillos were exposes (so to speak))

Your post is offensive.

[elehhhhna]

95. Fuck that. Just stop.

[Orrex]

98. These ignorant threads bashing the south always offend me

In targeting the south as a mythical cesspit of racism and backwards thinking, such posts completely disregard my own humble state of Pennsylvania.

I resent being excluded in that fashion, even from the most boneheaded and divisive of OPs.

[Dr. Strange]

105. Amen.

I don't understand the push to stereotype on the basis of regional occupancy when there are so many better options: like Dallas Cowboys fans, people who tell the Brazilian joke, or people who don't appreciate the music of Rush or the awesomeness of the Dune series.

Come on, people, we can do better!

[OriginalGeek]

117. You might be my favorite Pennsylvanian

and that includes when my little brother lived there.

[cynatnite]

112. The ignorance is on you for thinking the entire South is to blame...

SMH

[Blue_Tires]

114. No, and please stop asking...

I'm seeing this same post every couple of months like clockwork...

[kwassa]

118. The blues would be foreign music. Rock, too.

[Raine1967]

120. It's a bad question becuase asking it in and of itself

says there is a question about the idea of a United States of America to begin with.

I do not like these discussions. It presumes that people who disagree should be tossed out. It also presumes supremacy.

[Eliot Rosewater]

126. Anyone who thinks this issue of racism and tribalism and stupidity by voters is

a Southern issue, is mistaken.

[Spider Jerusalem]

128. Better off if the US had lost the Revolution, honestly

slavery would have ended sooner, there would've been a lot less ethnic cleansing, the Civil War wouldn't have happened, and independence would've happened eventually anyway (see Canada), and the US (or whatever it was called) would have a parliamentary government.

[denbot]

155. Hey what happened to your old avatar?

I always thought it was particularly cool.

[Spider Jerusalem]

156. Vanished along with Photobucket hosting!

[denbot]

157. Ouch

I have tons of photos there, sympathies.

[guillaumeb]

129. There is no "the South".

There are voters. Uninformed voters, racist voters, pedophile enabling voters are not limited to "the South".

[Binkie The Clown]

131. Ask Chuck Thompson, he wrote the book on the subject

[bronxiteforever]

134. Its the land of e pluribus unum, at least that is what the Wizard said.

[DangerousUrNot]

135. Disregarding slavery

The south has a lot of resources and ports to make it easier to trade internationally.
I want to think we’d be better but honestly I don’t know. I think we’d be much better off socially without them.

[GaryCnf]

136. What also would have worked

Would have been to follow the suggestion of Professor Jonathan David Farley

[ecstatic]

138. No. The "greatness" of the USA is based on it's journey and promise.

Anyone who thinks taking out key ideas and policies (such as immigration) would have led to the same result is wrong.

That being said, TODAY it might be time to let red states secede. I don't see how the current gap can be corrected. Many GOPers are simply irredeemable.

[NurseJackie]

145. It's unclear to me why ANYONE would think that permitting SLAVERY to continue...

... would be preferable to dealing with the problems we have today.

[tapermaker]

151. We would be better off if

We paid all Repub.pedos to fly down there now and then nuked them all .The only good repub pedo is a dead Repub. pedo.

[dawg day]

152. Well, our African American citizens might think it was worth it

The Union had no way of enforcing abolition without the war, so while secession might be a good thing, it would have to be only after abolition and free immigration of the freed Americans.

[Kablooie]

153. Disneyworld would be in a different country. So no. It wouldn't be worth it.

[ms liberty]

159. I've seen this post way too many times here at DU in the last 14+ years

Your concern is noted by this native resident of a historically purple southern state. Please refer to the archives for the numerous arguments for and against this subject, because it has all been said before in the service of dividing Americans. I'm sure some our our current crop of posters will be happy to oblige you in that divisiveness on both viewpoints.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

160. Western expansion would have put us in constant conflict with the CSA

They would have struggled immensely with perpetual border wars to the north and south. Even if the Civil War never happened another war would have.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

165. "what have they ever brought our country? Ignorance, racism, anti-scientific thinking, etc."

Nice stereotyping. Good luck winning any more elections with that attitude.