Maybe if he had just been able to get a satisfying job

[Duer 157099]

Maybe that's all it would have taken to prevent him from going off the deep end.

We sometimes overlook the most obvious and basic solutions.

[Iggy]

1. NOPE.. I think eventually we'll

find this guy is an attention whore like many of the other young male perps of mass
murder the past few years.

these guys fit a pattern, a profile that is readily visible

[Duer 157099]

3. From everything I've read about him, attention whore doesn't come to mind

although clearly this one act defies that.

He was a quiet loner who snapped. We need to understand why he snapped, and what we as a society can do to minimize the chances that other young men like him do the same.

Gainful, meaningful employment is one of those things. And nobody can argue that we have a problem in that area.

[Iggy]

9. Agreed to a point

yes, our mental health care is severely lacking in this area. we do need to do more.

My point is we're not going to stop people from "snapping". but what we (law enforcement)
can do is track/monitor people who are losing it, and prevent them from loading up their
cars with 4-5 weapons, hundreds of rounds of ammo, tear gas grenades, etc, driving to
a public place and committing mass murder.

I believe this is doable-- problem is law enforcement is not even trying to make an effort.

the police/bomb squads, etc. are very good at being REactive to a problem; they are not very
good at being proactive in stopping it in the first place. this is unacceptable

[bvar22]

44. Law Enforcement is not the solution.

This is a Social/Cultural/Developmental Problem.

I don't have a workable answer to the insanity now occurring in the USA,
but the root of our problem lies in the dehumanizing cultural worship of money and Status over everything else.

[ananda]

45. Agree

The problem is endemic societally and culturally, with deep roots.
Greed and status certainly sit at the heart of this problem, and
that of course plays into the reason so many young people are
jobless, and into the ability of the NRA to buy legislators, which
of course also plays into consumerism and profits for gunsellers...
which also plays into the way rightwingers do not wish to pay
taxes, which means less money for social programs and mental
healthcare which might have been able to help people with
violence and revenge issues.

We are a mess.

[Corgigal]

2. I think you're on to something

but add a touch of entitlement and narcissism.

[nanabugg]

54. Then he would have been a crazy, sorry creep with a job. nt

[HopeHoops]

4. "Do you want fries with that order?"

[Duer 157099]

5. And therein lies the crux of the matter

I said meaningful employment, something that justified his college years, his education.

We are a society of fast food workers. Who can be satisfied with that?

[HopeHoops]

8. Well, there are always the later years to look forward to - "Welcome to WalMart."

[Bicoastal]

11. BULLSHIT. If graduates can't mentally handle taking a crappy job post-college,

...then we truly are a nation of spoiled brats.

[Duer 157099]

13. From what I read, he wasn't even ABLE to get a job at McDonalds!

Probably "overqualified" or something.

Maybe it is more complex than just being a spoiled brat.

Our society is fucked up, can you really dispute that?

[Bicoastal]

19. Yes, we're fucked up. But this massacre is not as simple as a class inequality or economy thing...

First of all, I don't buy for a second that Holmes couldn't get A job. He just couldn't get a GOOD job, with benefits or vacation time or anything like that. How do I know that? Because I'm a fairly recent graduate myself, and I know what the job market is like. And YES--I had to take terrible jobs for awhile, and hated every second of it.

Second of all, his parents weren't poor--they lived in a San Diego, and were financially secure enough to support him into Grad school. However damaged his ego was, he was never in danger of starving or living on the streets.

And third of all--we've had massacres like these in good economic times AND in bad--over the last 30 years. Meanwhile, Japan has gone through tough times too, and has a similar economy to ours. No massacres.

We're fucked up, but this problem goes beyond mere financial problems. The inner torment of troubled young men goes far deeper than that.

[Duer 157099]

23. I agree

There is something deeply wrong and we need to figure it out. What worries me is when people take the attitude of "he was crazy" and then move on because that seems to be a satisfactory explanation, and that banning costumes at theaters is really what we need to focus on.

[Bicoastal]

28. The weird thing is...

...immigrants have deeply unenviable lives. They arrive here with nothing, live in awful unsanitary apartments in terrible unsafe neighborhoods, work awful demeaning jobs that leave them exhausted, and grow old and unhealthy before their time.

Yet, the vast, vast, VAST majority of these massacres are perpetrated by middle-class white kids from the suburbs. I'm not saying that coming from some money is a cure for all ills, but their problems are different than the problems of the people most affected by a shaky economy.

[malaise]

31. I don't know too many PhD students who aren't employed

as Teaching Assistants, Research Assistants or Tutors. Something else was wrong here.

[Edweird]

6. Well, if you look at other places with terrorist problems you might find some similarities.

We need to bring our country into the first world with higher living standards, controlled immigration and universal health care as part of a substantial safety net. You can be sure the number of people coming unglued will fall. That would have to start with running the DLC/3rd way/new 'dems' out of our party on a rail and returning to the party of FDR.

[Bicoastal]

7. NO.

Someone who would have done this in bad times wouldn't have been a boy scout in good times.

If that's all it takes to make an "ordinary" person snap, than hundreds of thousands of college graduates would be snapping every day--including myself when I was 24. This doesn't fit into any sort of societal pattern I can see, and I dislike the implication that anyone is to blame here besides the shooter himself.

[Gregorian]

10. It's a lot of things.

Life sucks now. For example, I'm old enough to know what real carrots and tomatoes tasted like. No stupid little stickers on every apple, that have to be peeled off, not to mention how fast everything is now. And the little thought in the back of people's minds that the planet is heating up.

Life is cheap now. Fast, cheap, and ugly.

But never mind me. I'm just being negative here. But I bet things aren't going to get better if we keep growing.

Edit- but now that I typed this, I realize that I haven't gone on any sprees, and won't. But I still think that the ugly world we've created is partially to blame for the things like this.

[SoCalDem]

12. Hindsight is always 20-20..If Hitler had been

accepted into art school, and had been a renowned painter.....

[Motown_Johnny]

15. So if I ever get a time machine

I should travel back and kill Van Gogh?

[SoCalDem]

37. No, but would you PLEASE buy some Hitler landscapes

and introduce the artist to all your wealthy friends..

[Motown_Johnny]

46. I think I would rather give his father a vasectomy

and no, that isn't something I would be into.

[Motown_Johnny]

14. He was studying for his PhD. and had enough money to buy

all those weapons and over 6000 rounds of ammo plus the gas mask and body armor.


I think you are on the wrong track here.

[Duer 157099]

16. Money isn't always a substitute for a satisfying job/career

especially if that money came from daddy and mommy and wasn't guaranteed to last forever.

[Motown_Johnny]

18. but he was in school and studying for a PhD.

I know he was having issues and might have been in the process of dropping out but I would have to believe that being privileged enough to be able to pursue that form of education would have to be fulfilling.


Of course, I could be wrong.


Then again, not everyone unhappy with their job buys 6300 rounds of ammo and then tries to use as much as possible in a crowded theater.

[Duer 157099]

20. The picture I got was that after college

he could not get a job, not even at McDonalds, and so his parents told him to go to grad school, or something like that. It sounds like he may not have wanted to do that and was finally coming to terms with it.

I want to understand what he was thinking, I'm not satisfied with just dismissing these events as the work of some nutjob and then going along my merry way. I want to understand and so I ask questions. Some people think it is looking for excuses but it is trying to understand and I will be unapologetic for that, always.

[Motown_Johnny]

26. I can respect that

but trying to rationalize the irrational may not work out to well.

Good luck to you.

[dionysus]

17. or he was severely mentally ill

[Duer 157099]

21. which brings up the question of whether he was medicated

just as important as being unmedicated is whether he was actually medicated, and on what?

These are important questions.

[gregoire]

29. which is why the violent people demanding his death are in the wrong

Their solution to violence is more violence.

[Skidmore]

22. That is a bit simplistic.

[Duer 157099]

25. Maybe.

[Mimosa]

24. Hfojvt explained the 'cause' best

On a previous topic which asked whether 'testosterone poisoning' played a role in this latest atrocity, DUer Hfojvt explained how certain males may snap. He placed this mass killing into the larger context .

Well worth reading:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=991774

[Duer 157099]

27. Yes, that is a great post

it describes exactly what I see happening.

That people act mystified when this happens is what actually mystifies me.

[dkf]

35. That is a great post.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

30. Doubt it.

The world is full of people with an unsatisfying job or no job, and they don't go out and shoot a bunch of people. This guy was very disturbed in some way - we will eventually find out more about his mental condition - and while his problems with employment and his recent troubles in school might have been the immediate triggering circumstance, the underlying cause of his rampage is a whole lot deeper. Even if he'd had a good job, something would have set him off eventually. Dude's fucked up.

[obamanut2012]

32. People don;t do something like this becaise of a bad job

If so, probably 75% of adult Americans would do this. My God.

Also, he was in grad school until a few weeks ago.

[kestrel91316]

33. I doubt it. Employment didn't help my mom. She was still looney tunes.

The one thing that did seem to help her was hitting her 60s. That, and anti-psychotic meds around age 70.

[pnwmom]

34. Paranoid schizophrenia doesn't work that way. n/t

[dkf]

36. Is there any evidence.

[pnwmom]

40. Nope. Just my armchair diagnosis. Time will tell. n/t

[RagAss]

48. Amen. Folks just don't get it....

It's like saying a good job would prevent cancer.

[HipChick]

38. he would have gotten a great job

and then prob gone into the workplace and shot anyone he thinks slighted him...

[freshwest]

41. My first thought as well. But we won't know his story until the trial.

[flamingdem]

39. I think it added to his cynicism

and then when school overwhelmed him, if it did, he figured there wasn't much future for him.. who knows but at that age people think short term.

edit: my spelling is deteriorating

[barbtries]

42. he was a student in a PhD program.

i doubt it will prove to be that simple at all.

[bluedigger]

43. It doesn't seem like he needed one really.

Hell, I could, and have, lived for several months on what he spent on weapons, ammo, and other fucked up gear like bulletproof vests and gas masks. I think he was a trustifarian who's expectations weren't meeting his sense of entitlement.

[Sirveri]

47. I think it had less to do with employment than with purpose.

People NEED purpose. They need to feel useful and contributing. My friend from high school just had his brother kill himself because of that. No purpose, no future, depression issues. Employment can help, but only if that's what a person wants to do with their life, if their job gives them a sense of purpose.

[soccer1]

49. I doubt that.

[Chorophyll]

50. Lots and lots and LOTS of people don't have satisfying jobs.

Yeah, this is a problem. But most of those people don't shoot up movie theaters over it.

[nanabugg]

55. I retired from a non- satisfying jobs after 40 years. Glad I didn't have a gun. nt

[Lex]

51. Jesus Christ, if this had to do with not being able to get a good job there'd be a mass shooting

every 10 seconds.

[Skittles]

52. CORRECT

[WillowTree]

53. No one knows yet what drove him to this. Why not let it play out and then we'll all see?

Too many armchair shrinks in this world.

[Canuckistanian]

56. He was a graduate student

With a few years of intense study in front of him. His main concern should have been his doctorate.

But sadly, it wasn't.

[sendero]

57. IMHO...

... it is a lot more likely that getting laid would have stopped this rather than getting a job.

[Marrah_G]

58. That sort of mental illness can't be fixed with a job

But jobs would probably help alot of people with less serious emotional issues.

[soccer1]

59. And maybe....

he couldn't or wouldn't be able to get a good job because of mental health problems. Who knows?

[stevenleser]

60. I don't think our society is good at identifying people at fairly obvious trouble points and if we

did, I am not sure we have the proper mental health infrastructure to help them.

To my way of thinking, anyone who flames out of college or grad school should have someone check up on them a month later and perhaps 4-5 months later. I would imagine that if you have any mental health issues, something like failing out of college is going to exacerbate that.

I think the same thing about people who are fired or layed off, people who are let out of prison, people who divorce, etc.

All of these stresspoints are situations that could cause people to break. I am not saying we could catch all people who are about to become violent but I think we could stop a lot of them. Seung-Hui Cho is another example. This person was an obvious disaster waiting to happen.

[gollygee]

61. People have a right to not hire someone who creeps them out

And I think that might have been the issue here.

Not everyone is going to get a job, and that doesn't make it OK for them to shoot a bunch of people.