Six tips for men about "Compliments"

[TygrBright]

Our culture is based on, and shaped by, patriarchal, misogynistic institutions, traditions, and norms. They're baked into everything, so completely that even those of us most constantly and negatively affected by them aren't always aware of how pervasively they've shaped everything about human interaction.

And yes, the laws have changed, but culture takes a LONG time to catch up with laws. And culture still shapes attitudes and expectations of all kinds of human interactions.

And it's complicated. There are layers and layers of stuff. So this is a necessary caveat here: I'm gonna oversimplify a bit, and I know I'm oversimplifying. Yeah, there are exceptions, and #notallmen, #notallwomen, #notallsituations, #notallwhatever applies.

That said:

Patriarchy assigns full human status, with all its implications of agency, control, dominance, etc., to people with a Y chromosome. Men. People without that chromosome (women) are by definition 'different' from that full human status. Things like agency, control, etc. have only been assigned to women in the context of their relationship to men. Value is assigned to women in the context of their existing or potential relationship to men.

Yes, women notice dreamboat eyes and nice buns, too. Finding people attractive physiologically isn't gender-specific, all humans are affected by it. But women are acculturated to regard men as fully human, powerful, potentially dangerous, multi-faceted beings whose opinion of us and actions in regard to us carries weight and importance. ALL men. Yes, even the pimply git behind the counter at the convenience store. Maybe he's not got the same potential significance as the guy in the three-piece suit behind the fancy desk, but he's a man all the same.

And for millennia, our survival and success has depended on how well we read those cues, assigned the right levels of importance to various men, and engaged in the right kind of interactions in every situation. And that included hyper-awareness of protecting and enhancing our own value based on their assessments of us. We have always had to walk the line between 'desirable' and 'available', and calculate the costs of being sexy enough to attract (i.e., be 'valuable') without DEvaluing ourselves as too available to maintain higher status.

Which is how we KNOW that men "complimenting" us on our appearance, particularly in public contexts, and particularly where those "compliments" are based on the value of specific body parts presumed to be sexually attractive, are not actually "complimenting" us in any real sense at all. They are objectifying us, attempting to define us as more "available" to them by the nature of our "sexiness." To lower our status by reaffirming that our appearance and sexual attributes are what matter about us. To cement our status as less-human than the males making the "compliments."

So here's a simple guide to "complimenting" female human beings, guys:

1. If you're in public, in a workspace, gym, public transit vehicle, restaurant, etc., and you have no personal acquaintance with or knowledge of a woman in proximity to you or providing some kind of professional service to you, DON'T COMPLIMENT HER APPEARANCE AT ALL. Compliments on her professional competence or expertise are fine, as long as they don't reference physical characteristics ("She moves pretty fast with those trays for someone with short legs"- no, no, no. Grow the fuck UP.)

2. If you're in public, workspace, etc., with women you have personal acquaintance with, in any degree of intimacy, keep compliments on her appearance to general observations without either implicit or explicit relation to sexual attractiveness. As in "you look great," or "nice color jacket" or "new haircut looks good" etc. (An exception to this would be if you have a close relationship and have specifically discussed it with each other that this particular woman welcomes more detailed commentary on her appearance for some reason.)

3. If you're NOT in public, with a woman you have little or no personal acquaintance with, do not reference her appearance at all, in any way. It's scary. You may not intend that, you might want to "flirt" with her, but don't. Just... DON'T. Being alone with, or in a very private context with, a strange guy is one of those situations where women feel at risk no matter how nice and unthreatening the guy in question appears.

4. If you're NOT in public, with a woman you know as a close acquaintance or even a friend, see rule 2. Generic observations on appearance. And-- and this is important!-- if she says "thank you!" SHE IS NOT flirting with you or inviting you to up your game to flirtation. She's being polite. Move on. Get to know her better in other ways. Eventually you might get an explicit invitation to flirt. Or you might not. You're not entitled, either way.

5. If you're NOT in public, with a woman who's a fairly close friend, and you feel just compelled to comment on her appearance (maybe for a reason that has nothing to do with the whole 'sexy' thing- you're just really delighted by her new hairdo, or noticed that she's lost weight, or whatever) ask her whether comments about appearance bother her, first. It may seem awkward, but it'll get you points, I promise. "umm... Would it make you uncomfortable if I say something nice about how you look? I know some people don't like that even when it's positive."

6. If you're NOT in public, with a woman you're intimate with, go to town. THAT'S when she wants to hear that watching her walk across the room gives you URGES.

So there ya go, guys.

Six hot tips on the "compliments" thing.

helpfully,
Bright

[Iggo]

1. Like I said...

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=9930260

[TygrBright]

2. Yep. n/t

[Achilleaze]

3. Thank you

[Glorfindel]

4. Thank you, TygrBright.

A much-needed reminder, I'm sure.

[bobbieinok]

5. Seems like basic politeness rules. Or how to interact with REAL people (assumes women real people)

[TygrBright]

8. Yep. Nutshell version: "Would you compliment a guy that way?"

But additional context... and repetition... can be useful learning tools.

diffidently,
Bright

[Basic LA]

12. That's a great rule!

And easy to remember!

[Phentex]

13. It seems basic but apparently it isn't...

one of the most disheartening aspects of all of these discussions are when people start saying things like "Well is THIS harassment? is THAT harassment?" and they clearly do not understand what is and isn't basic politeness. I agree that there are degrees of harassment but it's scary to see how many people do not understand some of the more basic levels of civility that ALL people of any gender should grasp.

[RandomAccess]

23. Complete baloney:

"let's-not-tell-the-men-too-much-about-how-women-really-think-feel-and-act".

Women who don't share how they "really-thin-feel-and-act" have simply been trained that men don't give a damn and don't want all that girly talk anyway. And aren't into sharing like that so don't want to be shared with like that. Ask some questions, sincerely, and make sure you're trustworthy and she knows it (won't share her secrets, won't ridicule, won't treat them dismissively otherwise, etc.), then stand back because once she understands you are genuinely interested and safe, you'll get more details than you ever wanted.

I'd say no wonder women are still a great mystery to you.

[steve2470]

28. No need to be rude

1- I probably exaggerated about the great mystery part.
2- I am non-intrusive about questions to an extreme. My default is to allow people to volunteer.

With that, please avoid me as much as humanly possible on this site. Thank you kindly.

Toodles.

[RandomAccess]

34. Allowing people to volunteer

mostly conveys a message of not caring a whit. I've gotten rid of "friends" who wanted to tell me all about their lives but never had the curiosity or interest or sheer simple COURTESY to ask me about mine. Relationships should be reciprocal, which doesn't mean even-Steven, just that there's give and take on both sides.

I'm sorry you felt I was rude. It's a discussion forum. As for avoiding you, that's a job for the Ignore option.

[MineralMan]

7. Good advice.

Compliments on appearance are out of place, except when made to someone with whom you have a relationship. And even then, they're much better kept general in nature, unless you're actively involved in intimate relations. That's always been what I've believed.

With strangers, even general appearance compliments are not proper. They're personal, and if you don't have a personal relationship with that person, why are you offering any opinion at all about appearance?

Compliments that have nothing to do with appearance, gender, sex or anything else may or may not be appropriate. You could say, "I though you brought up some really good ideas in the meeting," is fine if you're talking with a colleague. "I really like your outfit," however, is not OK in the same situation.

[TygrBright]

10. Yep, good capsule summary.

When you do know someone, regardless of the gender thing, the relationship may relax to the point of "I like your new haircut, looks good on you."

And to some extent, because of how we're socialized, women collude in the "comment on how I look" thing because our looks have been so important to our success in human interaction that it becomes a way of establishing even non-sexual intimacy. We do it among ourselves all the time. "Dayum, woman, that jacket is GREAT on you!" from a female colleague we're friendly with will bring a big grin to our faces. Then the innocent male colleague, wanting to build friendship/intimacy, sees that and thinks "Okay, I'll tell her how much I like those new shoes she was showing off to Edna in the break room" and things get awkward...

We have a long way to go.

We can get there if we work together.

appreciatively,
Bright

[MineralMan]

14. For me, personal comments of any kind require some sort

of personal relationship. A business relationship doesn't permit personal comments, I think, on its own. Generally, the closer the relationship is, the more leeway in all sorts of comments.

I don't think it's all that difficult to manage, really. I know lots of people, but not that many in a way that would allow me to make any more than general comments. I might tell my wife's 22 year old niece, with whom I'm friendly that she looks nice if she's all dressed up for some occasion, but that's it. We often talk about how her life is going, but only in general terms. We're not close enough friends for any personal comments.

I'm friendly with people, but never flirty. That's not appropriate. That's not to say I can't be flirty, but only when flirting was initiated by the other person who I know very well, and only on a surface level.

I remember a flirting relationship I once had with a woman who was a member of a woodwind quintet I was in. Our friendly relationship gradually became flirty, and there's no question that we found each other attractive. At one point, we talked about it, and then scaled it back. It was fun, but not really appropriate to the situation. We remained good friends for years, and nothing untoward ever occurred between us. But we finally had to talk about it and deal with it. That's the only time I remember when a friendship started moving in that direction and then ended up returning to just a friendship.

I know I learned something from that. Flirting is dangerous stuff, or can be.

[lapislzi]

18. I'm a woman, and I might comment to a woman colleague about something appearance-generic

Like, "oh, I see you bought those cute flats you were telling me about. Nice!" I *think* those are harmless compliments. I would hope someone would tell me if they were unwelcome.

However, to the woman whose hair becomes blonder and blonder every month, I would never remark on that. I have seen some whoppers--major plastic surgery or other no-go areas that are just plain kryptonite for either gender. They are an elephant in the room that goes ignored unto eternity. You ARE required to inform a woman colleague if her skirt is all caught up in her panty hose (or other wardrobe malfunction has occurred) when leaving the rest room, however.

I have never spoken to a man about his appearance except to tell him his shoe was untied.

You have to learn to read situations.

[MineralMan]

20. Yes. Being aware and thoughtful is always a good idea.

On the other hand, I was in the supermarket checkout line the other day, and the 20-something woman at the cash register, who is always friendly and talkative said, "You have a magnificent beard." I was not offended, but laughed and said, "Thanks. I grew it myself."

However, I guarantee that I will not make any appearance comments to her, nor flirt with her. It would be unseemly for a 72 year old man to do that.

[doc03]

30. It is inappropriate to tell a women that you know as a friend that you like her hair or some other

compliment without being guilty of sexual harassment? Damn

[ProfessorGAC]

9. Just So You Know

Good piece, so here's my replies>
1. Never Have
2. Never Have
3. Never Would
4. Never been in that situation
5. Never going to be in that situation
6. Been married to same woman for 37+ years.

[Pacifist Patriot]

11. Excellent

I just sent that to my three teenage boys.

[TygrBright]

15. I am deeply honored. Thanks for telling me. n/t

[crazycatlady]

16. May I add another tip for men (or women) not about appearance

Do not touch people who are not your significant other.

I have a friend who is always putting her hands on my shoulders from behind me and it drives me NUTS. I don't even like it when my mom hugs me. If I'm not intending on getting into bed with someone, I don't want touch beyond a handshake.

[MineralMan]

17. That doesn't really work as a universal rule, though.

Some people are huggers and some people loathe hugging. My answer is to let others initiate hugs. I have hugging friends and non-hugging friends, and I know which are which. If I have not already hugged someone more than once, though, it's going to be up to that person to initiate a hug. That's true for both men and women.

Personally, I enjoy hugging with friends who also enjoy hugging.

I would not hug you, regardless of whether I was a friend or not, because you dislike hugging and would never initiate a hug.

I will, however hug anyone I know who offers a hug.

[lapislzi]

19. I hung a "free hugs" sign on my office door

That way, people who want hugs can have them whenever they like. Non-huggers can walk on by. Fortunately, no one has ever abused the privilege and touched me in a way that made me uncomfortable. If that happened, that person would be told in no uncertain terms that that kind of touching is not welcome.

*Disclaimer: our office was directly affected by the Sandy Hook tragedy, so we are a particularly huggy bunch.

[MineralMan]

21. Yup. Some people are avid huggers.

I never mind that, but always let them initiate the hug. Personally, I like hugging just fine. When someone does initiate a hug, I know that person thinks of me as a friend.

[Duppers]

35. Wow!

I love HUGS, as long as hands stay in the right zones. I've never been hugged inappropriately but a few times in my long 71 yrs and those did not traumatize me.

As you probably love showing affection to kitties by touching (I love them too), that's the mutual way I feel about people I like. And like a lot of other DUers here who liberally use the hug icon, that's the way I respond in real life.

You sound like my fundamentalist mother's family who equate most all human touch with sexuality, especially between adults. I'm sorry you feel this way.

[crazycatlady]

37. Personal space is very important to me

Some people are just not touchy feely people. I'm one of them. I also don't like standing or sitting too close to someone and avoid it if possible. TOday at the supermarket, there was a woman who was standing WAY too close to me while in the checkout line (to the point where I knew she had garlic in her lunch) and bumped me with her shopping cart 3 times. If she gave me my space, my ankles would be better.

This Thanksgiving, the Girl Scouts put out a memo saying telling girls that they don't have an obligation to hug anyone they wish not to. I applaud it.

(Note-- things are different for a SO).

[Stuart G]

22. Thank You for the outstanding post..and the time you took to write it..

[RandomAccess]

24. Extraordinary intro material --

Feminism 101 stuff, and really important.

Excellent guidelines too.

Obviously, I heartily approve!

[pnwmom]

25. A wonderful list. And one more addition:

Don't compliment someone on their weight loss.

Why? Because that means you're paying attention. That means you noticed she was overweight before.

And if you're close to the woman, she might think you're trying to give her positive reinforcement -- i.e., that you WANTED her to lose weight. Instead of loving her exactly as she was.

Just pretend that you didn't notice and she just looks wonderful, just like she always did.

[bagelsforbreakfast]

26. CLIFF notes edition - Don't.... To many crazies to take a chance.

[spooky3]

27. Here is another tip I have seen:

If you wouldn’t make a comment to The Rock, don’t make it to your female coworker. So,

“That suit is beautiful” is fine.

“Wow, you look hot today” or “you’d look so much better if you’d lose 15 lbs” are not.

[doc03]

29. So I was at the gym a while back and a lady I barely knew said

that shirt looks great it matches your blue eyes. Should I turn her in to the gym manager for sexual harassment?
Another lady I know had just got a new bike rack on her car, I commented that I really liked her rack. She joked
and said Don said he likes my rack to a couple others that were there. Just saying it is not always the man that is
guilty. Sometimes women will make those little remarks giving a guy the green light
to say or do something even jokingly and they get in trouble.

[treestar]

39. The first one was just about clothing

How it could be harassment I don't know. Also coming from a woman, you don't see it as harassment, since you are valued for more than your looks and clothes - I think that was what the OP said.

The second one is just funning and the girl obviously knows you. Just a double entendre joke.

[doc03]

41. From the op I read if you would comment on how a women's clothing looks

or how it matches her beautiful blue eyes it would be sexual harassment unless she was your wife or partner as in #6.
There are times where a women would make a double entendre joke and a guy can get accused of sexual harassment
when he responds in that fashion. I was being sarcastic about both I wasn't offended but according to the op if I would have said the same to a women it would be considered harassment. I have ask a couple friends if they would be offended if a guy said he liked their
hair or something and they said of course not and things are getting ridiculous anymore.

[wasupaloopa]

31. I don't get why some folks here set themselves

up as the minister of good manners or what ever and need to tell the rest of us how to act!

Keep your nose where it belongs.

Most of us men know how to act properly.

In the early 80's I lived in Los Angeles.

I was hit on by quite a few women. We did what we felt was right and if we offended we apologized. It cuts both ways.

We didn't need a list of how we should act.

It was mutual respect after that we read the signals

[doc03]

32. Gee how do you ever get to #6 if you obey all the first #5 to the letter?

Seems like anything you do will or could be held against you.

[treestar]

38. By talking about other things

Getting to know anyone takes time and conversation. I would bet the men most successful with women do that. The woman knows it is not just her looks alone if he later asks her out. And then he has a knowledge that she is likely to accept.

That's how basing it on her looks can lead to moving in on her too quickly.

[Egnever]

33. I think unknowingly you have pointed out why this has never and probably will never change.

"Being alone with, or in a very private context with, a strange guy is one of those situations where women feel at risk no matter how nice and unthreatening the guy in question appears."

I don't say this because I find that fear irrational simply problematic.

The situation when reversed does not usually default to fear. On the other hand if putting your hand on someones waist during a hug becomes sexual assault that may in fact change.

When half of the population approaches the other out of fear there is no equality and never really can be. Each side will do what it can to protect themselves and in doing so will cause ripples of discrimination.

We have a ton of work to do and I have serious doubts we are even close to coming to any sort of solution.

It seems to me at this point that the me too movement is dangerously close to completely over stepping. If we are now going to take women's word in every situation at face value we are practically guaranteeing a return to even more work place discrimination. Who in their right mind would when given the choice between equally qualified candidates choose the woman when the woman comes with the possibility of lawsuits over hugs with no ability to even explore what happened. It would be foolish to do so.

At the same time how do we make the situation safe for the side that feels constantly under threat.

This is not an easy nut to crack by any stretch of the imagination.

I absolutely agree that cat calling or even just complimenting strangers can be creepy it can also be perfectly innocent and heartfelt and differentiating between them is often one of personal perception. I don't do it simply because of the potential for it to be seen as creepy not because I don't think that is a great hat or dress or whatever. That in my opinion is a sad state for society to be in.

[MindPilot]

36. Best advice for men: Don't even think about it.

Avoid all interactions with females unless they initiate; and even then be very, very careful what you do and say because you may be getting set up. What's consensual tonight, could very well be charges tomorrow morning.

If you are a man with anything to lose, like a career or a bank account, be extra very careful.

[Fla Dem]

40. The best advice is treat women how you'd want men to treat your mom, sister, wife and daughter(s).

Unless you're ok with a man not in a relationship with them sexually touching or propositioning your mom, sister, wife and daughter(s).