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Thu Dec 7, 2017, 07:46 AM

There is only one argument in support of Franken

That the allegations are not credible. PERIOD. Any other argument does not work or is hypocritical.

I am hearing the same people who told Moore supporters that this is politics and not a court of law now say Franken deserves due process. If Franken wants due process he will get it, by the way.

I am hearing people say that Republicans get away with it. That's the worse argument yet; should we speed the degradation of politics along it's way?

I am hearing that the bigger progressive goals are too important to hold an individual responsible for harrassing behavior. Really? The end justify the means? If we don't hold to our principles, how are we better?

Almost everyone pointing out that the taking the moral high ground isn't helping us. Don't people understand that if we don't hold onto the very best we can, than those who don't will only drag us down more easily? I believe we are in the middle of a huge political backlash right now. Moore, Trump and company are the result of those who have held privilege acting out of fear of losing it. But the arc of progressivism is still climbing over the long haul. In fits and starts, sure. There will be backsliding, but how far back actually depends on how hard we hold on to those principles that move us upward.

So for me, the only argument I will only listen to is that the allegations are not credible. Everything else is hypocracy.

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Reply There is only one argument in support of Franken (Original post)
HopeAgain Thursday OP
NCTraveler Thursday #1
MoonRiver Thursday #2
NCTraveler Thursday #4
MoonRiver Thursday #6
InAbLuEsTaTe Thursday #45
BlueIdaho Thursday #102
Amaryllis Thursday #108
karynnj Thursday #103
Perseus Thursday #56
Dr Hobbitstein Thursday #63
Thor_MN Thursday #89
Dr Hobbitstein Thursday #91
Thor_MN Thursday #95
Dr Hobbitstein Thursday #97
Thor_MN Thursday #98
HopeAgain Thursday #11
MoonRiver Thursday #23
HopeAgain Thursday #28
hadEnuf Thursday #33
MoonRiver Thursday #38
hadEnuf Thursday #75
MoonRiver Thursday #90
Thor_MN Thursday #93
rainlillie Thursday #43
uponit7771 Thursday #46
Saviolo Thursday #62
notdarkyet Thursday #92
Jarqui Thursday #3
DemKittyNC Thursday #5
Demsrule86 Thursday #7
HopeAgain Thursday #14
Demsrule86 Thursday #17
HopeAgain Thursday #22
Demsrule86 Thursday #26
rainlillie Thursday #44
Demsrule86 Thursday #47
TCJ70 Thursday #8
oasis Thursday #9
n2doc Thursday #32
Va Lefty Thursday #42
Mme. Defarge Thursday #52
FarCenter Thursday #10
Demsrule86 Thursday #18
FarCenter Thursday #41
Rabrrrrrr Thursday #104
Jim__ Thursday #12
Bengus81 Thursday #16
YessirAtsaFact Thursday #13
HopeAgain Thursday #15
Demsrule86 Thursday #21
spooky3 Thursday #25
Duppers Thursday #29
HopeAgain Thursday #34
spooky3 Thursday #35
luvtheGWN Thursday #39
Duppers Thursday #27
whathehell Thursday #37
Bleacher Creature Thursday #19
ollie10 Thursday #20
Pacifist Patriot Thursday #24
HopeAgain Thursday #31
ollie10 Thursday #36
InAbLuEsTaTe Thursday #50
delisen Thursday #30
rainin Thursday #40
ancianita Thursday #48
R B Garr Thursday #49
HopeAgain Thursday #73
R B Garr Thursday #82
HopeAgain Thursday #99
R B Garr Thursday #100
SHRED Thursday #51
mn9driver Thursday #57
femmedem Thursday #53
IronLionZion Thursday #54
Bernardo de La Paz Thursday #55
Orsino Thursday #58
Moral Compass Thursday #59
HopeAgain Thursday #64
rock Thursday #60
fishwax Thursday #61
HopeAgain Thursday #67
fishwax Thursday #94
HopeAgain Thursday #96
PatrickforO Thursday #65
HopeAgain Thursday #71
Joe941 Thursday #66
Proud Liberal Dem Thursday #68
dansolo Thursday #87
KPN Thursday #69
Honeycombe8 Thursday #70
HopeAgain Thursday #72
Honeycombe8 Thursday #77
Ferrets are Cool Thursday #74
Kimchijeon Thursday #76
HopeAgain Thursday #78
LanternWaste Thursday #79
LAS14 Thursday #80
LAS14 Thursday #80
sagesnow Thursday #83
TalenaGor Thursday #84
califootman Thursday #106
wryter2000 Thursday #85
Blue_true Thursday #86
110liberal Thursday #88
guillaumeb Thursday #101
Rabrrrrrr Thursday #105
pnwmom Thursday #107

Response to HopeAgain (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 07:50 AM

1. K&R

Well stated.

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Response to HopeAgain (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 07:50 AM

2. How does the "moral high ground" include convicting a person without due process?

Franken is being railroaded into resigning. Period.

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Response to MoonRiver (Reply #2)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 07:53 AM

4. Who has been convicted?

There is no legal concept of due process in the court of public opinion.

This is one of the worst arguments. It hinges on a concept that canít be applied honestly.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #4)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 07:56 AM

6. Franken deserves his case to be reviewed by the ethics committee.

If they decide he's "guilty" of sexual harassment, then I agree he should resign. But not before this happens.

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Response to MoonRiver (Reply #6)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 09:10 AM

45. Seems like the most reasonable way to take the charges seriously AND...

to determine the credibility of those charges.

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Response to MoonRiver (Reply #6)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 11:47 AM

102. Sen. Frankens Job Includes Rights...

That includes his right to have the Ethics Committee investigate claims and determine their credibility. The notion that he is to be tried ďin the court of public opinionĒ - whatever the fuck that is supposed to mean - is chilling in its implication for all of us.

If the Ethics Committee finds fault then he should go - but this is closer to mob rule (even if itís a mob of millionaire Senators) than anything Iím comfortable with.

If your job doesnít include protection of your rights - thatís a shame.

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Response to BlueIdaho (Reply #102)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 11:32 PM

108. What you said.

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Response to MoonRiver (Reply #6)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 11:48 AM

103. That is HIS decision to make -- no one can force him to resign without due process

Even if every other Senator advised him publicly or privately to resign, he does not have to. If he stays, there will be an ethics investigation.

If all charges were totally fictitious - with no part true, then he should say so and ask his peers to suspend their calls until both he and the accusers could be heard. What if his behavior was in a grey area - where he did not think it unacceptable, but at least some women who were around him feel they were mistreated? That seemed to be the underlying meme of his apology after the first accuser.

Oddly, we end up in a lower level version of the"Is this high crimes and misdemeanors" - that could be "is this behavior that is dysfunctional enough that he should not be allowed to continue being in the Senate seat that Minnesota put him in?" This is NOT the first time the Senate has had to consider this -- Senator Packwood was forced to resign in 1995. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/why-politicians-got-away-with-sexual-misconduct-for-so-long/2017/11/10/4bb1ecc6-c4d8-11e7-aae0-cb18a8c29c65_story.html?utm_term=.e6da68e898d9) Note that the allegations against Packwood were far more serious.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #4)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 09:35 AM

56. He is not being convicted in a court room

but he is being convicted by his peers in the democratic party who have asked for his resignation without what, many of us believe, is insufficient proof and accusations from anonymous people...no way to validate those accusations if they are coming from people who do not exist.

My take is that the anonymous accusers are Russian male trolls...

So technically, he is being convicted without due process. You are correct that he is not being convicted though legal means, but nonetheless if he is forced out then he has been found guilty by public opinion.

Conviction: declare (someone) to be guilty of a criminal offense by the verdict of a jury or the decision of a judge in a court of law.

By that definition you are 100% correct, but democratic politicians have placed themselves as jurors without proper legal process, terrible decision by democrats.

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Response to Perseus (Reply #56)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 09:52 AM

63. The people are anonymous to us.

They are NOT anonymous to the credible reporters who have reported on them.

There is a distinction.

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Response to Dr Hobbitstein (Reply #63)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 10:35 AM

89. Prove it. You are willing to subvert the votes of the people of Minnesota based on some reporters?

I don't think a few reporters outweigh our votes. I'm willing to bet that if one trolled a few low level reporters with a email claiming misconduct, they could get their false narrative published. In this day and age, confirming your sources is getting a second email from the same person.

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Response to Thor_MN (Reply #89)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 10:38 AM

91. Do I have to teach a fucking class on how journalism works?

Journalists from reputable publications donít report on anonymous claims, but they do keep their sources anonymous.

Deep Throat was anonymous. A very credible anonymous source (up until a few years ago, when he waa finally unmasked).

Franken ADMITTED he crossed a line. Are we forgetting this wilfully?

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Response to Dr Hobbitstein (Reply #91)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 10:50 AM

95. Welcome to 2017, oldtimer.

There is NO journalism anymore. I have had classes in journalism, taught by people far more knowledgeable that you. The practices that I learned have been long replaced by sensationalism, axing editors and the 60 minute news cycle, much less the 24 hour cycle. The journalism you think you knew is extinct. Anybody with an internet connection and a fucking Twitter account is now a "journalist". The mindless ruminations of talentless hacks are endless echoed into "news".

Franken said he did not remember it that way and that if she was offended he was sorry. Are we forgetting what we just had for breakfast, gramps?

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Response to Thor_MN (Reply #95)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 11:10 AM

97. Gramps? Im 37.

You obviously donít know how journalism works, and youíre willfully ignoring the facts, so there is no sense in continuing this conversation, as Iíd rather bang my head against a brick wall then try and remove someoneís confirmation bias.

Also, Twitter is not a legit news source, and ANYONE who thinks it is is a moron.

Politico is not Twitter, though. Neither are the other publications.

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Response to Dr Hobbitstein (Reply #97)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 11:14 AM

98. You talk like you are out of the 1940s. If you are 37, you are deluded, or have an agenda.

I know how journalism is supposed to work, and for the most part, it no longer does.

You have ignored every question I have asked and promoted false narratives.

Isn't it wonderful that this topic has got us all arguing amongst ourselves? Almost like it was a GOP designed action.

Enjoy your brick wall.

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Response to MoonRiver (Reply #2)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 08:03 AM

11. Does Moore deserve due process

before the Republicans should reject him on the sexual allegations?

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Response to HopeAgain (Reply #11)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 08:17 AM

23. Yes

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Response to MoonRiver (Reply #23)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 08:22 AM

28. Okay, then you are consistent

I don't personally agree because all we have is the public information available to us in most cases to decide if we support a politician. We have to parse out the evidence ourselves before we cast a vote or give an endorsement, but I admire your consistency.

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Response to MoonRiver (Reply #23)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 08:30 AM

33. Why?

Roy Moore is an extremist hack with a terrible track record running in a special election. Franken is a sitting senator with a proven track record.

They are not worth equal consideration.

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Response to hadEnuf (Reply #33)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 08:37 AM

38. I like to think we live by the rule of law, and not mob mentality.

In a nutshell, that's why.

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Response to MoonRiver (Reply #38)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 10:14 AM

75. Mob mentality is judging a 9 year senator with a proven track record by the same standards used for

Roy Moore, a private citizen candidate with a terrible track record.

Why should Franken be forced to resign his office without a review or investigation? Do Democrats not have respect for the office he holds? Franken should quit because "Roy Moore"? WTF? Roy Moore has not been elected to anything. Franken has been.

And as far as the rule of law goes, Franken hasn't been charged with ANYTHING. Neither has Moore. Yet we should throw Franken to the wolves?

Take the blinders off. This whole thing is complete bullshit.


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Response to hadEnuf (Reply #75)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 10:35 AM

90. Well, I totally agree, and don't know why you responded to me with that post.

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Response to hadEnuf (Reply #75)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 10:42 AM

93. Moore is running for an election - the voters become a jury.

Franken is being railroaded, by his own party, the right wing media and even people here declaring themselves prosecution, judge, jury and exectutioner.

Moore is headed towards a "trial", Franken is facing a mob.

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Response to HopeAgain (Reply #11)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 09:07 AM

43. That's beween Moore and The GOP.

The man was banned from a damn mall and admitted to dating underage girls after asking their mother's for permission.

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Response to HopeAgain (Reply #11)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 09:10 AM

46. OF COURSE !! Why is this a question ?! The issue is he's already lied twice and admitted to asking..

... mothers to date their daughter (cause he's fuckin stupid) which is way different than Franken's picture and him admitting to nothing else.

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Response to HopeAgain (Reply #11)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 09:46 AM

62. I think Republicans should reject him

Because he's a bad judge! He's been disbarred twice for violating the Constitution! How he can possibly run for Senate on his record absolutely baffles me!

The credible child molestation charges deserve their due process 100%, but how a guy who lost his job twice because even has a run at the Senate is just beyond my comprehension.

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Response to HopeAgain (Reply #11)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 10:41 AM

92. McConnell has said if he gets elected he will face an ethics investigation.

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Response to HopeAgain (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 07:52 AM

3. I will also listen to the argument that the allegations are credible

- even though I suspect they are not - to make sure my suspicions are not wrong

because I'd like this to be decided by the facts, evidence and the truth.

I think it's hypocritical to only listen to one side of the argument.

I do not fear hearing the other side because it is either wrong or true. I'd be disappointed if the other side of the argument turns out to be true but glad I didn't act against the truth and what was right.

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Response to HopeAgain (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 07:54 AM

5. ....

I will always vote a straight Dem ticket - unless they go completely bat-shit crazy but I refuse to give any more of my hard earned money to help support them ever again. They are not ALL working for us. Already their actions on calling for Senator Franken to resign shows they have either been bought out or are just too gutless or worse case scenario they are just completely stupid and too ignorant to see when a GOP funded propaganda stunt like this is targeting their own. Instead of fighting it just caving in thinking they are taking a high moral road.

See how far that will get them in 2018 if they keep eating their own.

We wouldn't be in this mess if they grew a backbone and stood up and defended their party and positions more. Instead we have Nazis in the White House and soon to be Pedo in the Senate. A Sexual Predator for a damn President and no where is anyone holding them accountable for their sex crimes! But yeah, sure, lets throw Franken under the bus. Why not?

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Response to HopeAgain (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 07:56 AM

7. That is nonsense...an unproven allegation made about a very effective senator...and Hannity and

Stone knew in advance...anonymous accusers too...sorry this is GOP bullshit...and I don't need a party to be perfect. I don't care about a Senator's private life one bit. Franken committed no criminal acts even if the accusers were telling the truth which they are not. We need to win... the GOP uses our values against us to win...until we fight back, they will win. This is the first of many to be accused...and we may not have a replacement until 20 because the GOP does not have to sit the replacement.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #7)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 08:08 AM

14. Groping women

Is just someone's private life? Really?

I am not saying I believe the allegations, but if they are true, and he has groped women without their consent, that is not "private life". Private requires consenting adults.

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Response to HopeAgain (Reply #14)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 08:14 AM

17. Unproven allegations...I have a problem with ruining someone's career over

GOP bullshit...and yeah some guys have been fired because on a date they tried to kiss the other person. I believe the allegations against Franken are GOP bullshit...in part designed to get the tax bill through...and maybe they don't seat a Senator until the next election. And yes in a social setting touching someone 's thigh is a personal life situation. There is no way we can should ever get involved.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #17)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 08:17 AM

22. I agree that we can question the sllegations

But I don't agree that touching someone inappropriately in a social setting is a "personal life" situation. That's putting the onus on the victim to deal quietly with a battery.

Battery: The non-consensual touching of another in a socially impermissible manner.

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Response to HopeAgain (Reply #22)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 08:20 AM

26. but it is...and it is up the people involved to handle it.

What we going to try people for an attempted kiss? Hell we can't even get rape victims justice.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #7)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 09:09 AM

44. Great points, it's as if some people have forgotten how lowdown

and rotten the folks on the other side are. If Roger Stone is involved..It's nothing more than bullshit!

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Response to rainlillie (Reply #44)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 09:16 AM

47. It is bullshit.

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Response to HopeAgain (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 07:57 AM

8. Ill make that argument...

...Iím not a fan of #BelieveAllWomenInstantlyWithNoCriticalThought. It opens a very dangerous door in my opinion.

When the first accuser was previewed by Roger Stone, is a frequent guest on Hannity, pushed birther garbage, and engaged in similar sexually charged conduct on the same USO tour it casts a pretty large shadow over whatever else comes out.

The anonymous accusers? No dice. Face the person youíre accusing or donít. This stuff is serious and it needs to be taken seriously. No one should be able to anonymously ruin somebodyís life with accusations like this.

The rest of it is people claiming he did touched them wrong, in large groups of people, in front of family members, with cameras focused on him. None of the pictures show the extreme fear and dread the accusers say they felt. I compare it to the Taylor Swift picture and the difference is entirely evident.

The article yesterday from Tiny Dupuy suggesting that him taking a picture with her with his hand on her waist was groping really bothers me. Thatís standard hand placement in a picture. Thatís an expansion of the definition of groping to a really extreme degree.

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Response to TCJ70 (Reply #8)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 08:00 AM

9. +100,000

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Response to TCJ70 (Reply #8)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 08:28 AM

32. agree n/t

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Response to TCJ70 (Reply #8)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 09:03 AM

42. Agree 100%

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Response to TCJ70 (Reply #8)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 09:26 AM

52. Also, this only serves to trivialize abuse and

infantalize women.

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Response to HopeAgain (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 08:02 AM

10. There has to be more here. The Senate is a club. Franken must not have made friends with the club.

It would appear that the other Democratic senators have weak or non-existent friendships with Franken. Otherwise they wouldn't be so quick to throw him under the bus.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #10)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 08:16 AM

18. Nope...the Senate Democratic leaders are making a huge mistake for purity...I have

no idea why they think this is a good idea.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #18)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 08:48 AM

41. Politicians? Purity? No, they must despise Franken for other reasons. Maybe his ex-comedian persona.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #41)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 02:10 PM

104. I wouldn't be surprised if they dislike him also because

he works across the aisle.

But probably not that - if they dislike him, it's most probably because Franken actually does his homework, reads the bills, asks poignant and important questions, and debates in a very scholarly and intelligent way.

Much as the dems are our only hope to get the country out of the shithole that the GOP have brought us to since Reagan's time, one has to admit that a lot of them are also ignorant lazy coward shitbags with, maybe, a lot of desire to not hurt the country; but not a lot of desire to actually help it, either.

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Response to HopeAgain (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 08:07 AM

12. Which allegations are not credible.

Leeann Tweeden may have had some imaginary line that Al Franken crossed. But watch the videos from that USO tour. She does not accuse Franken of doing anything more to her than multiple other people were doing, and she was participating. If Al Franken crossed some imaginary line she had, there is no way he could have known that in advance, and lots of activity to imply that he wasn't crossing any line. He has apologized if he did cross such a line. There are plenty of reasons to doubt the truthfulness of her allegations.

Franken has already denied the allegations of the accuser that said in 2006 he chased her around demanding a kiss.

As for him "groping" some women years ago when they took a photo together, I doubt he can claim that he never touched a woman in a way she found offensive but she never told him that at the time.

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Response to Jim__ (Reply #12)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 08:13 AM

16. From Tweedens My Space page all those years ago. She didn't have a problem POSTING this...

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Response to HopeAgain (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 08:07 AM

13. What about due process?

This whole thing looks like a smear job by the GOP.

Why the rush to judgment?

Why not wait for an ethics investigation?

If the charges stand up, then talk about resignation.

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Response to YessirAtsaFact (Reply #13)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 08:10 AM

15. He is entitled to it

If he wants it. But be careful with that argument because Moore has not gotten due process and we are attacking the Republicans for not condemning him.

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Response to HopeAgain (Reply #15)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 08:17 AM

21. No we are not...there is no due process one can attain for Moore...and the voters will decide.

Moore will be seated and Franken kicked out...and then the tax bill sales through...

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Response to HopeAgain (Reply #15)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 08:19 AM

25. When did Moore ask for due process, and when

He did, where is the evidence that Dems denied it to him?

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Response to spooky3 (Reply #25)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 08:24 AM

29. Exactly. (I'm being most redundant this morning.)

But you're so on the mark.

👍

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Response to spooky3 (Reply #25)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 08:31 AM

34. Franken can get due process

and judging from the opinions on here, he should not resign and should go through the ethics process. I am not saying that the Senators who have asked him to resign are right. I am not saying they are correctly holding onto the moral high ground. I am saying let's not debase our arguments because Republicans are worse.

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Response to HopeAgain (Reply #34)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 08:32 AM

35. So youre not able to answer my question.

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Response to spooky3 (Reply #25)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 08:38 AM

39. Precisely! Franken is the ONLY one who has asked

for an Ethics Committee investigation. He knows perfectly well that when all the evidence is presented, he will be cleared. Not only that, he may well be able to sue Tweeden for slander.

From all I can see from watching and listening to Franken, my take is that he is naturally affectionate with people -- both male and female. I have a friend who he reminds me of, about the same height (5'6", who always greets me with a hug and sometimes even pats my bum. That IS NOT groping. A cousin says she encountered him when taking her class on a trip to Washington, and she claims he gave her a "creepy massage". What she really meant was that he casually rubbed her back when the group photo was taken. I'm betting Franken would be horrified to know that an affectionate gesture on his part was mistaken for a "creepy massage". Herding a big class of youngsters in a strange place deserved a casual back rub, I suspect he was thinking.

Overtures of a sexual nature (either verbal or physical) are out of place in today's society, so I suggest that any male over the age of 55 need to adjust their behaviour. On the other hand, we females do ourselves no favours when we make mountains out of molehills (such as has happened in our own Canadian Parliament where a female MP had the figurative vapours and made a huge fuss over sexually explicit joke made by a male MP -- hey, get a grip, lady!).

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Response to YessirAtsaFact (Reply #13)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 08:22 AM

27. EXACTLY!!

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Response to YessirAtsaFact (Reply #13)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 08:35 AM

37. Yes, he suggested an investigation, why not let him have it?

What's the rush to get a good senator to resign?

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Response to HopeAgain (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 08:16 AM

19. K&R. NT

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Response to HopeAgain (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 08:17 AM

20. Do you really want more reasons?

1) Yes, the accusations are not credible.

The two non-anonymous accusations are shot full of holes.

Then there are the anonymous ones which may or may not be women....may or may not be democrats, aides, etc.....Roger Stone himself could be one of these anonymous accusers!!! There is simply NO credibility to anonymous accusations.

2) Beyond even that, even if you assume all the accusations are accurate, what he is accused of is not sexual assault. Goofy, yes. Rude, yes. Embarrassing, yes. But what needs to be understood is that not all untoward behavior towards a woman rises to the level of sexual assault, harrassment, etc. Franken's alleged behavior is a far cry from that.

3) This has all the trappings of a set-up planned by the right wing hate machine. The two non-anonymous "victims" are Trumpers. And, of course, if you were waging a hit job on a US Senator you would get additional women to "come forward".....may be hard to get genuine ones, so just trot out some anonymous "victims" who may or may not even be women.....

4) This entire thing was going to go to the Senate investigation. Franken was all in on that from day one. The lynch mob is preventing us from investigating the entire truth.

5) Isn't it interesting that the first accuser did not think it a good idea to have a Senate investigation? Why would she fear this?

6) The voters of Minnesota, both D and R, are having their votes taken away from them. They elected Franken. If the Senate investigation finds real dirt...then we should follow the process and remove Franken from office if he is indeed guilty of harrassment.
But this "kangaroo court" trying to force Franken to resign on what could be trumped up charges.....disenfranchises millions of Minnesota voters

7) due process is under attack here. What reason is there to prevent the Senate investigation from doing its job?

8) There is a danger her to women. If it looks like men are getting railroaded for political motivations and lynched when they did minor things......this is going to have a negative impact on society. Hiring? If the job is between a male and a female applicant who are both in the running I predict a lot of women are going to be passed by for fear they may be more likely to raise a sexual harrassment suit in the future. Is that fair, or just, or right? No. Of course not. But do you you really believe this won't happen?

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Response to ollie10 (Reply #20)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 08:19 AM

24. Reason 8 chills me to the bone.

And I fear you are absolutely correct.

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Response to ollie10 (Reply #20)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 08:27 AM

31. I would put all your arguments except 7

under the umbrella of the allegations that he committed sexual assault as being not credible. Franken should go through the ethics process if you are correct.

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Response to HopeAgain (Reply #31)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 08:34 AM

36. I support a Senate investigation

The Lynch Mob Senators apparently want to railroad Franken and prevent the investigation from happening.

It is very sad thing for the Senate and our party.

Franken wants an investigation. His first accuser does not. Some of his no doubt politically motivated Senate colleagues do not want an investigation.

The Senators have nothing to lose by letting this go to the investigation. Oh....change that.....some of them would lose an opportunity to score poltical points towards potential presidential campaigns.....

That's what this is all about. Politics. And the ambitions Gillibrand and others have to be president. This scores some points for her, even if it means caving to the Republicans, even if this means ignoring due process and even if it means making a joke of a senate investigation. Just lead the lynch mob and she will score some points. Disgusting.

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Response to ollie10 (Reply #20)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 09:18 AM

50. Well said.

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Response to HopeAgain (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 08:24 AM

30. Due Process is the moral high ground


It is that which distinguishes us from the mob.

The votes of citizens should not be easily cast aside by the representatives of the people. That is not progressivism. The US Senate is not the ancient House of Lords.

Consider this: After the humiliation of Anita Hill, a group of Democrats were successful in driving Robert Packwoood, Democratic leader out of Congress for his chronic sexual harassment.
Was it effective in ending sexual harassment ? No, but it gave many of us a fleeting sense of accomplishment and a false sense of power.

There was a better way then and there is a better way now.



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Response to HopeAgain (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 08:40 AM

40. How about another argument?

A picture of a man NOT touching a woman's breast is not the same as taking an underage girl back to your home, offering her alcohol, undressing, touching her breasts, and guiding her to touch Moore's penis.

How about, touching someones rear-end while taking a picture (taken by the husband) in full view of fair-goers and the husband is not the same as attacking an underage girl and throwing her out of the car, leaving her alone in the parking lot at night (add on the threat).

How about, Bannon laid out his strategy a couple of days ago when he accused the democrats of weaponizing the sexual assault allegations, which we are clearly not doing, but they are. He gave away his strategy for all to here. Only his base believe his version of the story. We should understand it as a confession.

Franken deserves a hearing PERIOD. If we turn a circular firing squad on one of our strongest members, we are only encouraging them to continue to take us out one by one.

Democrats should be for due process. His accusers should name themselves. The accusations should be considered individually, not by a number.

And TRUMP MUST RESIGN IF FRANKEN DOES!

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Response to HopeAgain (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 09:16 AM

48. We're not in a backlash because moral high ground isn't right. Our problem is to make sure it WINS.

To paraphrase boston bean's ideas:

Endorsing false equivalency is not taking a moral high ground.

Forcing any punishment to fit some "crime" is.

This party of "we" know the obvious difference between leaving a trail of emotional embarrassment and leaving a legally actionable legal trail of psychic and physical damage.

If no woman makes this distinction, no man -- whether in comedy or in politics -- will survive this bar.

Men and women who make these distinctions will not have to forgive the wrong of a child molester and/or send him to congress.

Women and men who make these distinctions will not have to forgive an obnoxious senator and/or drive him out of congress.

Please understand that this senator is not exchangeable like a car part. He is needed to keep these distinctions clear before Congress and America -- early, often and loudly.

Overall, when we make the above distinctions, we see that this senator is not the problem. He is the solution. We don't need to allow ourselves to be played by confounders who don't play by legal rules.

Any Democratic senator who faces anonymous accusers must first forgive him/herself, then allow any ethics investigation to present the sources of these accusations and their evidence. Evidence that wouldn't be laughed out of a courtroom.

Remember that the accused are not the ones who have to prove anything. Accusers do. We have to make them. We have to stand by those who have to fight confounders and law breakers.

We cannot stand for echoing false equivalencies in the name of some misguided "higher ground."

When voters see that, they won't trust us and we won't WIN.

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Response to HopeAgain (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 09:17 AM

49. There we go again! Comparing Moore to Franken.

This is exactly what they wanted! We saw Mooreís accusers on TV make statements of serious poaching of young girls. Franken has some anonymous women saying he squeezed their waist in a picture. Wow, now Franken has to go and Moore gets in. Hook. Line. Sinker.

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Response to R B Garr (Reply #49)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 10:12 AM

73. I am comparing arguments, not people

You are reacting emotionally, not rationally.

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Response to HopeAgain (Reply #73)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 10:22 AM

82. Any way you look at it, the arguments are not

equal so you are buying a line for no reason. Thatís certainly not rational. You are doing their bidding for them. Mooreís accusers on television describing how a grown man abused them is not equal to an anonymous woman saying he touched her waist during a picture (none of which we see in the photos).

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Response to R B Garr (Reply #82)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 11:31 AM

99. So the only time Franken should resign is if he committed

statutory rape? My point was merely that we have to make political decisions sometimes without a trial or due process. I feel a call for Moore to resign is supported from known facts. I am not saying that with Franken.

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Response to HopeAgain (Reply #99)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 11:36 AM

100. Well, I just saw Corey Lewandowski on MSNBC say that Franken was

caught on video abusing women. Is that true? No. Then he said that Moore doesn't have anything like video evidence against him, so it's all false.

That is the reality of how these things are framed for public consumption, and it works, so they keep doing it. Franken was a distraction for Moore, and now Franken is leaving and Moore is in. Mission accomplished.

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Response to HopeAgain (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 09:21 AM

51. Without an Ethics Committee investigation

Our party is vulnerable.

A zero tolerance policy based on anonymous accusations alone is dangerous.

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Response to SHRED (Reply #51)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 09:37 AM

57. Exactly. In a decent political world, taking the high road would pressure Republicans to do the same

In the real world, it does not work that way. We will eat our own and feel superior. Republicans will elect whoever the hell they want, no matter what theyíve done, and laugh all the way to the ballot box for the next generation.

Running Franken out of town on a superior morality Democratic rail, based on anonymous and unverified allegations, is a recipe for causing a shit ton of informed liberals to keep their wallets closed and not bother to vote next year.

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Response to HopeAgain (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 09:29 AM

53. I don't think it is hypocritical to talk about the degree of offense.

I think that even if guilty, censure is more appropriate than resignation for what he's accused of. I would say the same about any Republican as well.

I would feel differently if we were talking about a greater degree of assault, of underage women or of women over whom he wielded power.

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Response to HopeAgain (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 09:33 AM

54. The allegations should be investigated

we the public don't need to know the details. Law enforcement can interview the victims and keep their identity secret.

The allegations don't sound credible.

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Response to HopeAgain (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 09:35 AM

55. Whatever happened to the idea that the Ethics Committee would look at it?

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Response to HopeAgain (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 09:37 AM

58. Yeah.

When there are multiple accusers, and Franken himself has already admitted to inappropriateness, I find the stories mostly convincing.

If he is as bad as has been said, I don't expect his address today to admit to everything...but because he is a man, I suspect that he is incapable of judging exactly how intimidated his targets may have been. And that last is not up to him.

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Response to HopeAgain (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 09:39 AM

59. Completely disagree

This is a classic Republican ratfucking operation that is using idealistic moral absolutism as expressed above as a weapon.

The accusations against Franken, to me, donít rise to the level of sexual harassment even if they are true. And I have grave doubts about their truth.

The timing is incredibly coincidental and the accusations vague and hidden behind anonymity and a complete lack of corroboration.


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Response to Moral Compass (Reply #59)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 09:55 AM

64. So how do you disagree with me?

I think that all goes the the credibility of the allegations. Are they believable? If true is it a case of sexual assault?

I am just tired of so many saying "we should not take the moral high ground."

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Response to HopeAgain (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 09:42 AM

60. Nice black and white view you got there

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Response to HopeAgain (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 09:45 AM

61. your position would be correct if the situations were equivalent, but they are not

I think, therefore, there is another good argument in support of Franken: that the situations are not at all equivalent.

There are differences in the processes for addressing each situation. Franken is a sitting senator who has requested an ethics investigation into his behavior. It is perfectly appropriate for him to continue with that process. If he chooses not to resign, that process will play out accordingly. Moore has not yet been elected. It is perfectly appropriate for people to suggest that voters should take these allegations seriously and consider them in making their decision. Since he's chosen not to step aside, that process will play out accordingly.

There are differences in the severity of the charges. Franken is accused of a pattern of boorish behavior, including some allegations which would potentially rise to the level of sexual assault. Moore is accused of a pattern of predatory behavior, including allegations of sexual assault and sexual assault of a minor. Suggesting that the behavior Moore is accused of is more severe than the behavior that Franken is accused of does not excuse Franken's behavior and is not hypocritical.

There are differences in how the two men have responded.

There are differences in the quality of evidence against the two men.

I see no reason they should be treated as equivalent.

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Response to fishwax (Reply #61)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 09:58 AM

67. I didn't say they were equivalent

I said We should focus on the allegations not lower our standards.

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Response to HopeAgain (Reply #67)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 10:48 AM

94. you said "everything (other than the charges aren't credible) is hypocrisy"

But pointing out that the cases aren't equivalent and therefore needn't be treated equivalently isn't hypocrisy, in my opinion. Treating Franken and Moore, and treating support for Franken and Moore, differently isn't hypocrisy at all.

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Response to fishwax (Reply #94)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 11:03 AM

96. Maybe I do assume that groping women without their

consent is serious enough to disqualify one from being Senator. I'm not saying he did, but maybe I did make that assumption. I never said it was the same as statutory rape.

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Response to HopeAgain (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 09:56 AM

65. I hear what you're saying, so I'm sure you'll agree that the calls for Franken to resign

are premature at best, with two allegations proven spurious at best and five ANONYMOUS ones.

This is straight out of Karl Rove's playbook. Throw some shit and see what sticks. And, hey, if it doesn't stick, you've at least kept them busy fighting off the false allegations and they haven't had time to do their job or get their message out. That's how the GOP hate-machine works. You know this.

So, yeah, if...and it is an awfully fucking big IF...Franken is guilty of egregious sexual harassment, then he should resign. But we don't know that yet, do we? And where are the voices of those Dems spinelessly and prematurely calling for him to resign raised against Trump, who is the groper-in-chief and who is squatting treasonously and illegally in the WH? Where are their voices raised against the pedophile Roy Moore?

Crickets, eh?

Let's let the investigation happen and show us the accusations aren't credible before we call on Franken to resign.

Because I'm not going to forget this in the upcoming primary battles, or when I get asked to donate. I'm a donor for many Democrats, and this 'controversy' is clearly a right-wing frame up. If this distracts us from being able to fight off the tax scam, then the GOP will have just what they want, won't they? I will not support spineless, ill-advised and premature calls for Franken's resignation, NOR will I support those spineless, ill-advised and premature (rush to pander) politicians who make them. Harris, Gillibrand and others are clearly pandering for the female vote, but women aren't that blind. They, like me, want to see Franken get a fair shake.

This will backfire big time on on these people.

You know the Dems I REALLY respect? The 58 House members who VOTED FOR THE ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT. These are the only people in the party with guts, it seems.

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Response to PatrickforO (Reply #65)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 10:09 AM

71. NO, I don't agree with the calls to resign

based upon what I have seen. I don't know if all of the Senators know something more. All I am saying is I believe in the moral high ground, but I also believe we should make sure we are on it before we act.

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Response to HopeAgain (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 09:57 AM

66. Too bad Franken's apology added cred to the allegations, huh?

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Response to HopeAgain (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 09:58 AM

68. I disagree

I think that we can agree that the allegations are credible and worthy of concern without also saying that we think he needs to resign. There is a palpable difference between what Franken has been accused of doing and what Moore has been alleged to have done (with a lot more substantiating evidence) and Franken has made some apologies and voluntarily agreed to submit himself to an ethics investigations. The two cases are simply not the same. In our desire to confront this problem, do we now remove consideration of severity from consideration and treat everything as equally bad, wrong, worthy of resignation, etc?

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Response to Proud Liberal Dem (Reply #68)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 10:29 AM

87. No, we can't agree that the allegations are credible

The non-anonymous allegations all have pictures that seems to contradict their own allegations. Tweeden claims that she couldn't ever be near him again, yet she attended a function IN HIS HONOR a few years later. And why does every single picture that was taken after the alleged groping incidents show the "victim" smiling and leaning in close to him? I would like to know if there is a single woman who would sit and pose for a picture with someone AFTER they supposedly groped them for 5-10 seconds, which is what one of the allegations says. And don't get me started with the anonymous allegations. For something this serious, the accusers need to come forward.

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Response to HopeAgain (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 10:03 AM

69. We've been speeding the degradation of politics along for a long time.

It's called positive reinforcement. They shove our faces in shit and we fold because we're better than them. It works for them. They do it again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again ....

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Response to HopeAgain (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 10:09 AM

70. Not true. FIRST is..claimants must NOT be anonymous, & claims can be seen & heard by public.

If one asks ME to judge an allegation, I must have what we had in Moore's case: A NAMED claimant; a public statement of the claims made.

That's before anything else can happen. Before deciding whether allegations are credible.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #70)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 10:10 AM

72. An anonymous allegation is not credible

I don't know why people keep twisting my point.

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Response to HopeAgain (Reply #72)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 10:15 AM

77. Exactly. "Anonymous" doesn't warrant serious consideration. nt

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Response to HopeAgain (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 10:14 AM

74. You have that right...and the right to be wrong

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Response to HopeAgain (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 10:14 AM

76. EXACTLY why this is so frustrating

The allegations are not credible, and that's why so many are beyond furious. The simplest of investigating would show that beyond a doubt (it sure seems like horseshit to most hearing about it)

For the lynch mob to squeal and march around trying to demand him to resign, makes them look like complete fools. Why drum out someone over what appears to be an obvious hack job? Like, how stupid are you?? Meanwhile far more credible cases of real assault and actual crimes are being ignored? I agree, it's hypocritical.

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Response to Kimchijeon (Reply #76)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 10:16 AM

78. Perfect argument and you did not have to cede any moral position

That is exactly what I am trying to say

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Response to HopeAgain (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 10:20 AM

79. If one denies the difference of degrees and applies the hobgoblin of little minds

"Everything else is hypocracy (sic)..."

If one denies the relevant differences of degrees and applies only a foolish consistency, it could certainly be perceived as duplicity and sanctimony.

However, if one allows for difference of degrees, and forgoes the rhetorical pretense of a rigid dogma, then its stands to reason we're forced to entertain additional possibilities... but as you won't listen or allow that, oh well...

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Response to HopeAgain (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 10:21 AM

80. Zero tolerance is zero common sense (from another post). nt

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Response to HopeAgain (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 10:21 AM

80. Zero tolerance is zero common sense (from another post). nt

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Response to HopeAgain (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 10:25 AM

83. At this point I agree...

The allegations are not credible and Franken deserves due process.

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Response to HopeAgain (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 10:27 AM

84. Franken should resign as soon as Moore and Trump do, not before...

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Response to TalenaGor (Reply #84)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 02:23 PM

106. It should not be dependent on Moore and Trump...

...it should be dependent on Franken receiving due process. And then give Moore and Trump due process to determine if they should resign, I'm fine with that.

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Response to HopeAgain (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 10:28 AM

85. The allegations are not credible

Heís being railroaded

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Response to HopeAgain (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 10:29 AM

86. If we don't adhere to our principles when it hurts, then what are we?

BTW, I agree with the basis of your OP.

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Response to HopeAgain (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 10:33 AM

88. Franken

A part of our constitution is that we all are entitled to "due process" what the 30 plus senators are saying is that they do not believe in due process. It's ok because I "trust" an anonymous source. Even a murderer is entitled to due process.

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Response to HopeAgain (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 11:44 AM

101. Due process.

One either believes in it, or one believes in mob rule and the court of public opinion.

My vote is for due process.

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Response to HopeAgain (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 02:23 PM

105. They're railroading Franken for the same reason that nothing got done during Obama's first year

Because too many of our dems in congress are fucking cowards.

When they had the majority in Obama's first year, they were afraid to pass anything because it might make the Republicans feel sad.

Now that one of their own is accused, however completely bullshit it looks, they're afraid and so they throw him under the bus without an actual investigation, when what they should do is 1) demand and investigation, and 2) demand that they will not force Franken to resign unless the investigation proves positive and/or not until the GOP forces sex assaulter Donald out of office.

If Franken's "assaults" are enough to take a Senator down, then Donald's scare-quote-free assaults absolutely make him unfit for office.

Take a stand, dems, and give Franken the investigation he deserves.

It's this kind of cowardly bullshit that pisses me off about dems (and sometimes my fellow progressives in general). Grow some goddamn spine, you fucks.

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Response to HopeAgain (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 02:50 PM

107. No there is at least one other strong argument. Anyone should have the right

to face their accusers. All the women who made these claims anonymously have deprived him of that right in their cases.

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