A lesson I learned at nine applies to Al Franken

[mreilly]

... when I was 9 years old my third-grade class provided cupcakes on your birthday (this was way back in 1980). Birthday celebrants go to pick out a helper to hand out the cupcakes. Being chosen as a helper was a great honor (I don't even remember why).

There was a class bully, Mike. I told a friend named Ken that I was considering choosing Mike as the helper to get him to be friendlier towards me.

"Don't do it," Ken warned me. "He'll still be a complete dick. You'll waste your pick on an asshole like him."

Ken was in a different class so I had no reason to think he was just trying to get me to pick him, of course, given he wasn't on the ballot, so to speak.

The exact same principle applies with Al Franken if he resigns. Any Democrat who thinks the Republicans will respect that is an idiot. Any Democrat who thinks Republicans will figure: "Oh shit, I guess we have to be nicer now" is an imbecile. Any Democrat who thinks Republicans aren't going to jeer and snigger and crow: "Our guys are 100% PROVEN INNOCENT and that horrible serial rapist Al Franken represents the moral decay of his entire party!" isn't living in this reality.

The GOP will NOT feel they have to exhibit any shred of morality after this. Instead it will only embolden them to sink even lower and lower and lower. They're already trotting around screeching that all their guys have to do to prove themselves innocent is just not admit to anything, and it's a done deal.

And if you don't think Franken's resignation doesn't mean any Democrat who remotely threatens them at any time won't immediately be subjected to a flurry of false allegations intended to force them out of power, you haven't been paying attention.

You cannot exhibit morality in the presence of immoral people and expect that to have any positive impact on them. They will instead use your own morality as a club to beat you with.

Rather, Franken needs to welcome an investigation into his past, demand the same for Moore and Trump, and tie their fates to his - if they resign, so will he.

The worst thing he can do is say: "Here, I'll go first and you can follow my lead." They won't. And their asshole supporters won't fault them for not doing so - not a single one.

[uponit7771]

1. +1

[Stuart G]

2. Thank You for your post...k and r ...no text

[WhiskeyGrinder]

3. So did you pick Mike, or not?

[Bettie]

6. I wanted to know that too!

You can't start a story and not finish it!

[mreilly]

9. No, he wasn't picked...

... I trusted Ken's judgment that it would do nothing.

[Bettie]

16. Probably the wisest course of action

when I was in Kindergarten, I decided to befriend Joe, the kid who would get up at rest time and go around hitting everyone until the teacher caught him. It did not go well.

[Achilleaze]

4. + 1 - "tie their fates to his..."

[Kimchijeon]

5. You are so correct. This "morality display" is what they are hoping for

And would be a huge mistake if he caves to the foolish pressure to resign. He needs to say "no, lets go on with the investigation that I suggested in the first place, and we'll see where that takes us."

Gee, why the rush? Why no investigation, hmmm?

[Guilded Lilly]

7. Childhood lessons:When I was nine, my father died of a cancer that now, is quite

curable. I sadly remember very little about him, as he was on the road carving out a living during the week and only home on weekends...but one thing he would always say was “if you are going to kill someone, kill them with kindness.”
Good, high road words, right? I lived those words and raised my children on them.
I struggle with that now, to an extent. There are nuances. Serious nuances.

My mother used to say over and over, if you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all. Again, good, high road words. Until you realize that in some instances, by saying nothing enables disgusting lies and hideously foul behavior to flourish in people who have no morality or conscience. Again nuances.

Neither of these high road life lessons will work societally or mean enough unless you temper them with truth and accountability. Fairness Is the third lingering but essential factor.

Al Franken is facing a serious situation that, societally, MUST be addressed.

Long overdue and insidious, the gender-inbred disrespect of females is a real ongoing and deep seated societal problem. Sexual harassment of the vulnerable of any gender is a very serious problem. Exploitation and abuse of children is a heinous, monumental problem.

Don’t just address these problems with blanket high road morality. Find the truth behind the problem or actions. Take the time to investigate. When those truths come to light, demand accountability using those TRUTHS. And do so with fairness.

There IS a difference between someone who recognizes there is an unacceptable behavior they may have performed, seeks an open examination of that behavior, takes accountability when truth is discovered in a fair and level investigation and someone who defiantly ignores said behavior, denies any accountability and blames/vilifies the rest of the world with arrogance or ignorance.

People will lie. For all kinds of reasons. Perpetrators most certainly and even some victims. People will practice vile behavior or stupid behavior for all kinds of reasons. People will get away with anything and too much in the process while too little is done for the weaker or less powerful. Crappy people could succeed and stagnate and never improve. Better people will learn and grow. There is a difference.

Nothing about this very real and painful process will be easy or quick for any of us.

Until truth, accountability and fairness are parts of the solution- bad, even criminal behavior will flourish. High road mentality must be tempered with a demand for truth, accountability and fairness or it is just a stance without substance or solution.

In this specific instance, Al Franken has immediately requested and will co-operate with an ethics investigation seeking the truth. He has indicated he will take accountability for those discovered truths. Give that stance the fairness it deserves.

Or, in the process of demanding the high road without truth, accountability and fairness, the ignorant, hideous and arrogant WILL flourish.

[Wednesdays]

15. This needs its own thread. nt

[Egnever]

28. Well said

[geardaddy]

8. K & R

[Moral Compass]

10. You I agree with...

See my reply to Hopeagain.

You I agree with.

There is a strain of idealistic moral absolutism within the progressive wing of the Democratic Party that in its worst form produces a French Revolution Madame LaFarge urge to condemn any imperfections. Off with our heads!

Trump and Roger Stone and Hannity et all know this and have weaponized it.

I’m sure they are howling with laughter as they watch us turn on each other.

While we outdo ourselves trying to prove our moral purity by demanding the impure leave our presence the ratfuckers are free to grab all the reins of power and rewrite all rules so they can rule in perpetuity.

Schumer, Pelosi, Gillibrand are playing a dangerous game when everything is at stake.

[zentrum]

11. I think the Dems

....are trying to send a message to us. Their voters. Not the Republicans.

But it's not working with this Democrat and her family and friends.

Also, it's to mobilize women to vote Democratic in larger numbers. But as we lose our right due to a Republican dominated, predatory-in-all-ways, Congress---we will just be furious that the Dems "virtuously" got rid of a strong Democrat.

So just to repeat---this is aimed at other Dems, not the Repugs.

[pangaia]

25. "Also, it's to mobilize women to vote Democratic in larger numbers."

I read a very cogent article on just that topic somewhere, that Franken is being told to quit - "Looking toward 2018, 2020." etc...

Well, I don't agree with it as a tactic.

[zentrum]

27. Neither do I.

[mountain grammy]

33. I think the Dems have forgotten the 30+ years of smears and lies

Last edited Fri Dec 8, 2017, 10:12 AM - Edit history (1)

that helped keep the first woman president out of the white house, and now, yes NOW, are taking some kind of false "moral high groud," This wasn't necessary. Al Franken is NOT a predator and the next person who says that to me will hear that loud and clear.

This Democrat is not afraid to stand up for a senator that stands up for me!

[zentrum]

36. Please call Franken

…and let him know that. Well said.

Our Dem leaders are late and wrong on the case on this one.

[mountain grammy]

37. Thanks, I will again.

I've called twice, emailed and tweeted.. I also contacted every Democrat who called for his resignation and reminded them of Shirley Sherrod, ACORN, etc, etc, etc.

At this point, I feel my Democratic party is not a force against the evil that's taking over our country and I have to wonder why... Why?

[zentrum]

38. Me too. Feeling

...more unprotectd by them than ever at an absolute crisis time.

Thanks for your calls.

[Dave Starsky]

12. They're like the Klingon captain in Star Trek III

[Honeycombe8]

13. TRUE. Exhibit A: The serial molester President..who has full support of the Repub Party. nt

[Ilsa]

14. ITA. They will say that Franken didn't resign

over what we know, but that there is something much worse that we are hiding, like he rapes little boys' and girls' corpses or something completely unimaginable.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

17. Go first so other won't follow THEM. Don't resign. But Franken apologized FIRST.

Franken's very first statement was an apology and a call for the ethics committee to look into it.

I don't think Franken should resign, but if he does he should immediately re-offer. https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029936339


The two points of going first is not to get the bad guy to follow, but 1) To be principled and 2) So that others follow you and not the bad guy.

Franken has made mistakes in the past but he has been principled.

[luvtheGWN]

18. Well, we already know that Franken is wicked smart, so

I shall be very disappointed if he does not use this opportunity in the Senate to reiterate his call for the Ethics Committee to investigate. I also firmly believe he should NOT resign. Curses on his Democratic colleagues for not seeing the downside of a resignation. Then again, would-be Senators and Reps do not have to take an IQ test. If only they did.......

[rainin]

19. YES!!! Welcome an investigation and demand an investigation of Moore and Trump!! YES!! n/t

[ChoppinBroccoli]

20. I Agree With What You're Saying, But..........

While I agree that this won't cause the Republicans to soften their stance one bit (in fact, I agree with you that they will use it as a victory and a talking point), I think this move is being made in order to appeal to the great mass of "undecided" voters who are constantly being told that both parties are the same. I would guess that the Democratic leadership thinks this is an opportunity to seize the high ground and point out, "Look how WE deal with it when one of OUR'S is a bad guy!"

I don't know that it will work, or that it's even necessarily all that smart. I love Al Franken and think we NEED him in the Senate. At least until an investigation proves he did something wrong. Personally, I believe that Al's insistence that there be an investigation into HIMSELF sends the exact same message.

So, while I agree with you, I also see the logic of it. Like most here, I don't like it, because it robs us of one of the few Democrats we have that will actually slug it out with the other side. We have so few fighters anymore that it really hurts to lose one.

I kind of like the way Hillary suggested handling it (if it really was a suggestion rather than just a shot at the Republicans) in her tweet this morning. She said that Al Franken should step down just as soon as Roy Moore and Donald Trump do. If I were Al Franken, I think that's what I would say in the press conference. I will comply with the recommendations of the investigative body, just as long as Trump agrees to do the same.

[sagesnow]

21. Hear This:

"Rather, Franken needs to welcome an investigation into his past, demand the same for Moore and Trump, and tie their fates to his - if they resign, so will he."

Seems the perfect solution.

[trueblue2007]

22. I agree with you. I'm sick over this witch hunt against Al Franken

like in Salem, they piled on rocks. many innocent people were killed in Salem. False allegations made against those men and women.

Al Franken should go through an investigation. anonymous slander against him needs to be investigated.
not just no name yelling saying he did this.... he did that.

he hasn't even been able to defend himself.

[Mme. Defarge]

23. Nailed it!

K&R!!!

[calimary]

24. Your fifth and sixth paragraphs should be engraved on a stone tablet

and replicas made, to install in EVERY Democratic headquarters from coast to coast.

[earthside]

26. What happens when the next male Democratic Senator is accused?

Is the standard now forced resignation?

Or is Franken being sacrificed for Sen. Gillibrand's ambition and for some vague 'moral high ground' stance for fearful Democrats?

Indeed, as the OP points out, this won't make Trumpians any more circumspect or reflective about the serious issue of sexual harassment; they will see it as an opening to demand the 'Franken standard' of Zero Tolerance for all those accused tomorrow or next week or next month.

If there is some due process and Franken is 'guilty', then why is a vote of censure by the Senate Democratic caucus not appropriate? Is Senate mob rule deciding that expulsion is the only acceptable punishment?

[Beartracks]

29. What Repubs will think is...

... "Thanks!" and "That was too easy! Let's do it again."

Shooting fish in a barrel is even easier if you can get the fish to pull the triggers.

=======

[Beartracks]

30. What good is it to jettison your fighters to prevent distractions from... fighting??

[questionseverything]

31. trump and moore have done criminal acts

nothing franken is accused of comes close to that

[milestogo]

32. When I was 9 nobody that age used the words "dick" and "asshole".

[tblue37]

34. K&R and thanks! nt

[Oneironaut]

35. The Democrats Ned Starked themselves. I was a fool.

I was one of those who wanted Al Franken to resign - an opinion I regret now. In retrospect, it was foolish. I was wrong.

While I still maintain that we don’t need Al Franken to function as a party (his resignation is hardly the doomsday even the internet thinks it is), we lost a good Senator. We need all the allies we can get against Trump.

I believe his accusers, but I do not think what he did warranted a resignation. The DNC was spineless to gang up on him and force him out. This was absolutely a trial by media, and I got sucked into it. For that, I am sorry.