A sane voice, one of the few left- please listen.

[BeHereNow]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1017&pid=42840

By marmar, sinking in the din of insanity.


Bill Moyers Essay: Living Under the Gun
July 20, 2012

In a web-exclusive video essay, Bill Moyers says Friday’s deadly shooting in Colorado is yet another tragic indication that our society — and too many of our politicians — covet guns more than common sense or life itself. The National Rifle Association in particular, Bill says, “has turned the Second Amendment of the Constitution into a cruel and deadly hoax.”

I think what concerns me most about where DU has gone, in general, is that we used to THRIVE on voices
like Bill Moyers, Helen Thomas, David Hackworth. (RIP)

Now we can not seem to focus on anything resembling creative thinking for 5 minutes even.

BHN

[pipoman]

1. Too many refuse to

acknowledge the effects of eliminating public funding of mental health services.

[BeHereNow]

3. As someone who is touched personally by it on a daily basis, I acknowledge it.

And you are correct- the the demise of a civilization can be predicted by how
that society cares for those most in need.
Shining example, we are NOT.

BHN

[quaker bill]

12. I acknoweledge it and work with the homeless

a good portion of whom are in need of mental health services.

That aside, even when we had better funded mental health services, nuts still got guns and went on shooting rampages.

This is a very weak defense of RKBA.

[pipoman]

13. RKBA doesn't need a defense...it is a civil liberty..

the truth is the truth in this case. Work place killings and mass killings have been around a long time...forever...it wasn't until elimination of publicly funded mental health services for anyone who needed them that we have seen the frequency. The one common thread for these guys is family and acquaintances knew of a mental problem but couldn't get treatment for the person. This should be a right...that is, access to needed medical attention.

Raygun's war on drugs is a dismal failure, yet billions is spent on it every year. If that failure were acknowledged and drugs decriminalized in the way of Portugal and using that money would go a long way toward paying for mental health and addiction services for anyone who needs them.

Nuts will always kill people, drunks will always kill people, ATVs will always kill people, high school football...you get the idea. We know that freedom isn't always safe and it never will be.

[quaker bill]

18. It is a civil liberty, until it isn't.

Yes, people killed each other before guns were invented, and will continue to do so in the absence of firearms, should that ever happen.

Mental healthcare would be a good thing regardless of the presence or absence of guns. Even the best available services do not help the undiagnosed. If the way you end up making the diagnosis is by counting the corpses, the point is rather moot.

Bottom line, it will be a civil liberty until enough gun owners go off the reservation, shoot up enough workplaces and movie premiers to turn the politics. Then change will be sudden and swift.

It is a shame that the whole RKBA community is so rabid about the "civil liberty" that they do not police their own ranks and quit selling guns and ammo to fruitbats on their own. It would seem that acting in an assertive way to promote sane gun ownership would go quite some distance toward preserving the cherished civil liberty.

That being aside it is the action of gun owners, not anti-gun activists, that will determine the long term fate of RKBA. I hate to put my faith in fruitbats, but they surely are dependable.

[snappyturtle]

2. Great minds think alike!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002994214


It's a great message. Hope many will watch and give it serious thought before automatically asserting the right to bear arms.

[sabrina 1]

4. Moyers should be the norm in a civilized society. The fact that he stands out as a voice of sanity

shows how rare sane dialogue is in this society. We need thousands of voices like his before they have any effect on the kind of society we want to be.

I'm thinking that we ARE the society we want to be, mainly influenced by our fascination with and glorifying of all things violent. I wonder why that is since it benefits so few people?

[AndyTiedye]

6. What You Mean "We"?

I'm thinking that we ARE the society we want to be, mainly influenced by our fascination with and glorifying of all things violent. I wonder why that is since it benefits so few people?

It's what somebody wants.

What the rest of us want never makes it onto the Tee Vee.

[sabrina 1]

9. Then we don't want what we say we want badly enough do we?

People fight hard for what they really want, so it looks to me either 'we' do not want what 'we' say we want nearly as much as those who you say get their voices on TV.

Eg, how many people are willing to refuse to turn on the Tee Vee? That's not much of a sacrifice, it's not asking people to risk their lives or anything, yet each time the idea is raised we have people right here on DU who will tell you they simply can't do it.

So sorry, I stand by my comment. We get what we want and are willing to fight for. Apathy is not a course of action guaranteed to get desired results.

Not OPENLY supporting something while doing nothing to oppose it if it's wrong, has the same result as supporting it.

We will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.
- Martin Luther King Jr.

When the American people have had enough of the kind of society we are now living in, they will do something about it. So far, they seem quite satisfied judging by their words and actions.

[AndyTiedye]

21. I Don't Think Any of Us Know How

We have been trying things that used to work, like mass protests, but they don't work like they used to.
This is almost entirely due to the lack of the kind of media coverage that such demonstrations used to get.

Boycotts become increasingly difficult as ownership becomes concentrated in fewer and fewer hands,
making it more and more difficult to avoid products by certain parties (the Koch brothers come to mind).

A lot of things may make us feel good, but nobody else notices, like…

how many people are willing to refuse to turn on the Tee Vee?

How could we determine the answer to this question?
Certainly not from the Neilsen Ratings.

It does not matter one whit whether or not you or I watch the Tee Vee
because we are not "Neilsen Families", so nobody knows whether we are watching or not.
"Neilsen Families" are selected from the most TV-addicted households they can find.
Those are the only viewers that matter.

In fact I practically never watch the Tee Vee, but my not watching makes absolutely no difference to them whatsoever.

[cbrer]

10. I agree with you strongly

We have exactly the society we want. Part of it has to be that the govt. has to glorify violence to maintain a willing military.

Another part may be the influence of the games we play.

Still another part may be a reaction to the moral code that is built into American marketing. Glorifying and rewarding "take overs", greed, and the desire for personal gain, over a quality society.

[pipoman]

14. The term "civilized society"

always makes me snicker...in order to have a "civilized society", all members of the society must act civilized...We don't live in a "civilized society", it is a utopian fantasy.

[sabrina 1]

15. .There are civilized societies where people like Moyers are the norm.

Not sure what you mean when you say 'civilized society' makes you snicker. It does not mean that all members of society 'must' act civilized. A civilized society understands that there will always be people who will not or cannot act civilized but they are generally marginalized.

But when a society looks up to its members who do not act civilized, such as the Bush administration eg, and applauds and rewards their uncivilized acts, something has gone wrong. And when a consistent half of the country sees nothing wrong with slaughter and torture in their name, something really is wrong.

Norway is a civilized society, just as an example. Doesn't mean they don't have uncivilized members in their society, they just don't revere and/or elect them to positions of power.

[pipoman]

16. It is hard to marginalize an uncivilized member

of society when that person is invading your home, victimizing you or someone you love, or shooting up the movie theater you are attending. Most of the US society are quite civilized. It is the tiny fraction who isn't who makes Moyer's proclamation that it is a civil liberty which makes the US uncivil simply wrong. No, it is disparity of wealth, inability of the poor to access needed health care (and in this case mental health services), no access to addiction services without a Mercedes full of cash, and many other socioeconomic disparities which make some people uncivilized..Simplistic, utopian thinking would lead one to proclaim the NRA the boogie man in this and all shooting incidents.

[sabrina 1]

20. Well, I agree with you regarding our Healthcare system, and do believe it plays a very large role

in many of the tragic events such as this one. As someone who has a family member who we all knew was capable of violence but could not get help for him until he actually attacked someone. Even then, he was placed in a hospital but had to be released after six weeks with no other help available, until the next time.

Civilized societies, and that was my point which you are making, do not tolerate violence-prone mentally ill people loose in society with free access to deadly weapons and no availability of treatment.

It is a deadly combination as we have seen all too often.

So long as the people refuse to demand Health Care for the mentally ill that is adequate and makes it easy for them to acquire weapons, there will be more tragic events like this. And each time people will ask how it happens, and then move on and forget about it until the next time. Until we say 'enough'.

[Fumesucker]

5. That was before we got a Democratic president..

It's easy to act like a bunch of filthy hippies when you don't have responsibility for governing.

Now we have to listen to the Very Serious People, we have to be pragmatic, moderate and centrist in word, thought and deed.

[flyguyjake]

7. Tea Party

No I think it was before the Tea Party took the Republican party to the extreme. The Tea Party has done more harm than good within the party buy making the Republicans look out of touch and like a bunch of conservative freaks. Hello what happened to any bipartisan effort? Have we lost our way? Have we lost our ability to work together? I think so! We have a two (three) party system for a reason. It's called checks and balance. Together we can accomplish anything, but on our current path we don't stand a chance.

[Doctor_J]

8. You're deep in denial

The Tea Party has done more harm than good within the party buy making the Republicans look out of touch and like a bunch of conservative freaks.

they're going to take the Senate, gain in the House, and maybe win the white house.

[snappyturtle]

11. I hope you're way off on this prediction. nt

[xchrom]

17. I'm w/ you, Fume.

[sendero]

19. I'm usually with Moyers 100%..

... but he has the cart before the horse here. Our problem isn't that guns made us a sick society, the problem is we are a sick society that has guns.

I also wonder in what universe mere laws would make people give up their guns. Didn't work with alcohol, didn't work with drugs, and most of the explosives Holmes had are already illegal.

Sorry, there are some problems for which there is no legislative solution, period.