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H2O Man

(73,511 posts)
Thu Dec 7, 2017, 11:09 PM Dec 2017

Pleas Please Me

“The ends justify the means.”
Ovid's Heroides; 10 bc



The above quote is generally attributed to Machiavelli's “The Prince,” though the phrase is not found there. It has, however, been found in the actions of empires and mob families. And we witness that mindset in America today, in both the republican party and especially in the Trump administration.

Other historical figures have held that the means are ends. Perhaps most famously was Mahatma Gandhi. In our nation's past, the most outstanding example would be Martin Luther King. More recently, in the context of social-political conflicts, Michelle Obama noted that “when they go low, we go high.”

I believe that they were right. Sometimes, it's difficult for me to keep that Truth in mind, for two reasons. First, I'm imperfect, and second, the social-political reality is frequently frustrating. On a few recent nights, I've walked outside and looked up at the stars, and thought that while “no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should,” things seem pretty screwed up here on earth.

It's easy for me to identify republicans in general, and specimens like Roy Moore and Donald Trump as toxic. That's not only okay, it's accurate. Nothing wrong with that thinking. Much of what they do is beyond disgusting. And so it can, at times, be a struggle to not feel hatred for them.

I have been a registered member of the Democratic Party my entire adult life. Still, there have been individual democrats – on the local, state, and federal levels – that I didn't have much respect for. The overall numbers are relatively small, of course, but they have always existed. And when I've felt that they have betrayed democratic principles, it is easy to feel contempt for them.

Today, I read through a number of OP/threads from DU community members on the case of Senator Al Franken. There are, of course, a wide range of opinions. I feel no need to express my own, as it is of no more value than anyone's here. But I will say that in the larger context of what our nation is confronted with today, as individuals at the grass roots level, we should remember Ms. Obama's words: “When they go low, we go high.”

In my opinion, the most important issue facing the country is the Trump-Russian scandal. It is an ugly example of mobsters who believe that the ends justify the means. And that means they would do anything to access the power to enrich themselves, to the detriment of the nation. They are indeed the lowest of the low ever to inhabit the executive branch.

At the same time, we are seeing Mr. Mueller's team investigating the Trump mob. And while we all would prefer that this unfolded at a more rapid rate, the fact is that it actually has been going faster than previous investigations of executive crimes. Two indictments have been made public. Two guilty pleas, as well. More, the case is picking up steam, and by the end of February, forum members will be pleased.

Hence, as I stood outside tonight, looking up at the stars, I knew that much of the responsibility for how the effort to revive and heal our constitutional democracy is firmly on the shoulders of the grass roots. In a sense, that's no different than with the social issues regarding sexual harassment: it's a social dysfunction that is not going to be “cured” by politicians in Washington, DC. No, the legislative branch has long been infected by this disease. Far too long to deal with it on their own. It can best be dealt with by the grass roots, by socially conscious people who engage in the political system, especially at election time.

And this means that we all can benefit from asking ourselves if we really believe that the means are not distinct from the ends. If Michelle Obama's advice is something that we hold on to when things are tough. If we do, then we don't continue to serve up the rancid bacon of “refusing to forgive” and work with democrats who supported a different candidate in one of the previous presidential primaries. No, that type of nonsense is only found at the lowest potentials for the Democratic Party. And we need to go much higher.

We have urgent issues to be focusing on right now. And we have a lot of important elections coming up in 2018. I'm hoping to do my best. That includes attending a local committee breakfast on Saturday. It involves organizing for dealing with current issues. And it is all connected with preparing for 2018, which is almost here.

Peace,
H2O Man

36 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Pleas Please Me (Original Post) H2O Man Dec 2017 OP
K&R...Thank You spanone Dec 2017 #1
Thanks! H2O Man Dec 2017 #4
I think junior is doing an exceptional job. I would recommend he stay the course...😎 spanone Dec 2017 #6
Absolutely! H2O Man Dec 2017 #12
(stay the course) 😂😆🤣 sprinkleeninow Dec 2017 #18
You have perfect pitch, my friend. Thanks for this - I needed it tonight. NRaleighLiberal Dec 2017 #2
Thank you. H2O Man Dec 2017 #5
I've been listening to a lot of music. And taking long walks. NRaleighLiberal Dec 2017 #7
Right. H2O Man Dec 2017 #13
Thank you coeur_de_lion Dec 2017 #3
Thanks! H2O Man Dec 2017 #8
The Beatles shanti Dec 2017 #27
Thanks. H2O Man Dec 2017 #35
I just watched coeur_de_lion Dec 2017 #36
"In my opinion, the most important issue facing the country panader0 Dec 2017 #9
Thanks! H2O Man Dec 2017 #14
With respect, there seems to be confusion, Mme. Defarge Dec 2017 #10
Yes, there is. H2O Man Dec 2017 #15
Thank you for your reply. Mme. Defarge Dec 2017 #17
Right. H2O Man Dec 2017 #24
I love you. This is good so thank you, again. nt babylonsister Dec 2017 #11
Thank you! H2O Man Dec 2017 #16
How nice I caught your OP after a not nice week of mine. sprinkleeninow Dec 2017 #19
Thank you. H2O Man Dec 2017 #21
That was a good read. Solly Mack Dec 2017 #20
Thank you. H2O Man Dec 2017 #22
Dang, Waterman. I'm just looking forward to the enjoyment of reading what you write. Solly Mack Dec 2017 #28
My own image is that of a resistance army Maeve Dec 2017 #23
Very good! H2O Man Dec 2017 #29
K&R. "End of February", eh? Sounds almost like you've got access to bullwinkle428 Dec 2017 #25
Thank you! H2O Man Dec 2017 #31
I Agree Me. Dec 2017 #26
Yes. H2O Man Dec 2017 #32
Virus/Virulent Is The Exact Word Me. Dec 2017 #34
Great post WaterMan malaise Dec 2017 #30
Thanks! H2O Man Dec 2017 #33

H2O Man

(73,511 posts)
4. Thanks!
Thu Dec 7, 2017, 11:31 PM
Dec 2017

What do you think of the mess that Donald Junior is in? If I get the time, I'm hoping to post an OP on that tomorrow.

H2O Man

(73,511 posts)
5. Thank you.
Thu Dec 7, 2017, 11:36 PM
Dec 2017

I keep going outside for little breaks tonight. And it's not just because my dog Sam thinks he deserves a treat every time we enter the house. I was just out there, thinking about two fascinating theories on cycles in American social-political issues. Especially the one with the 87-years between crises. I started an outline in my mind for an essay on what is to come between now and 2030. And, of course, the best long-term strategy for dealing with it.

NRaleighLiberal

(60,009 posts)
7. I've been listening to a lot of music. And taking long walks.
Thu Dec 7, 2017, 11:38 PM
Dec 2017

Today, my wife and I attended the funeral of a friend who passed away suddenly this week. Our dog is old and ailing and coming to the end of her life.

Taking breaks is essential - being reminded of how complex our lives are - as the politics swirl around us, the need to take breaks from it give us perspective...ideas - and hopefully, some energy to move ahead.

as an amateur astronomer, I take great comfort in the stars. It is good to be made to feel tiny and insignificant in the grand scheme of things!

H2O Man

(73,511 posts)
13. Right.
Fri Dec 8, 2017, 12:57 AM
Dec 2017

I am sorry about the loss of your friend. And it's hard to watch our dog(s) grow old. They are wonderful beings.

I've long been fascinated by the night sky. I've had a couple telescopes, have a few text books, and have enjoyed resources at the regional universities. And I was thinking of Potter's Box while writing the OP, and the issues of people's opinions of the universe, and its connection with their social-political philosophies. But my essays are too long to begin with, and so I will soon write a follow-up that connects with those topics.

H2O Man

(73,511 posts)
8. Thanks!
Thu Dec 7, 2017, 11:38 PM
Dec 2017

I'm glad that you enjoyed it. And I always recommend watching old films of The Beatles, especially John and George. Plus, listening to their music. I'm convinced that they were on to some things we need these days.

shanti

(21,675 posts)
27. The Beatles
Fri Dec 8, 2017, 01:44 PM
Dec 2017

ha! When I first saw your post, I thought it said, Please Please Me, and thought you were going to make a referral to them (and in a way, you did). There are a few documentaries on Netflix that have caught my attention recently too. Nostalgia, I guess...

Thanks for your always reasonable and thought-provoking posts, H2O Man. I always seek them out. It's difficult to find calm in this crazy world.

Peace to you and yours as well.

H2O Man

(73,511 posts)
35. Thanks.
Fri Dec 8, 2017, 04:10 PM
Dec 2017

I thought my choice of the title made reference to The Beatles/ Please Please Me on three different levels. Of course, that probably is only inside my head!

I often think about many years ago, when a Clan Mother suggested to me that when the world is spinning rapidly out of control, it is important to step aside to regain that inner calm. I haven't mastered that ability, by any means. But I keep on trying.

coeur_de_lion

(3,676 posts)
36. I just watched
Sat Dec 9, 2017, 10:30 PM
Dec 2017

The movie Ron Howard did about the Beatles' touring years. Loved it. And you're right they were onto something.

H2O Man

(73,511 posts)
14. Thanks!
Fri Dec 8, 2017, 12:59 AM
Dec 2017

It's getting more and more interesting daily. There will be an increase in the rate of "leaks" to journalists -- though not from Team Mueller -- for the next eight weeks.

Mme. Defarge

(8,014 posts)
10. With respect, there seems to be confusion,
Thu Dec 7, 2017, 11:53 PM
Dec 2017

even controversy, within the Democratic Party over the meaning of “going high”.

H2O Man

(73,511 posts)
15. Yes, there is.
Fri Dec 8, 2017, 01:07 AM
Dec 2017

No question about that. But if we start, for example, with the basic concepts we associate with FDR's programs -- with those basic values, as applied within the changing circumstances over the decades -- then we should be capable of identifying the best ways to enact that social contract. There will, of course, be differences of opinion on how exactly. As noted in an above response, we might consider using the model of Potter's Box to better understand some of those differences. More, we might focus on how previous attempts failed to fully institutionalize the goals FDR set. In doing so, we reach a better place to identify the difference between the potential high- and low potentials within the party. And that might not be perfect, but it beats the alternative.

Mme. Defarge

(8,014 posts)
17. Thank you for your reply.
Fri Dec 8, 2017, 01:29 AM
Dec 2017

Over the last couple of days I have felt pretty despondent, finding little reason for hope. But if you say we’ll be pleased, that’s something.

H2O Man

(73,511 posts)
24. Right.
Fri Dec 8, 2017, 12:27 PM
Dec 2017

The past few days have been awful. No question about it. No matter how one thinks about Senator Franken or Representative Conyers, there has been damage done to the Democratic Party. And, at the same time, shitheads like Trump and Moore add insult to injury. Add the tax plan, and no rational person could help but feel dismayed.

Yet, it will be our collective response to the current outrages that will define our future. It's a sad feature in this nation's history that it's only when enough people recognize that it's actually as bad as you and I know it is now, today, before society reaches that tipping point where meaningful, positive change can take root. And we are there, in the context of being able to impact the 2018 elections. But that will merely be the starting line for the effort to make serious institutionalized changes. It will be difficult, no doubt, but not nearly as difficult as if we fail to harness our energies.

sprinkleeninow

(20,218 posts)
19. How nice I caught your OP after a not nice week of mine.
Fri Dec 8, 2017, 02:03 AM
Dec 2017

Toss in Al's decision for added distress.

You are a sage with your words of wisdom and encouragement. 😍

I appreciate this before hitting the sack.

A pleasant and restful night to you my brother in
humanity.

~sprink

💓?💪🗽

H2O Man

(73,511 posts)
21. Thank you.
Fri Dec 8, 2017, 12:02 PM
Dec 2017

Rubin "Hurricane" Carter used to tell me that all roads to wisdom must first pass through valleys of doubt. (The first time he told me that was in 1974.) We are experiencing a hard time now, no question about that. And there need to be changes, in order for the nation to get back on track. But if we invest our combined energies correctly, those changes will take place.

Solly Mack

(90,758 posts)
20. That was a good read.
Fri Dec 8, 2017, 02:30 AM
Dec 2017

I saw your reply about the Potter Box & individual social-political philosophies - I'm looking forward to that essay.

H2O Man

(73,511 posts)
22. Thank you.
Fri Dec 8, 2017, 12:13 PM
Dec 2017

I'm pleased that you -- and hopefully others -- are familiar with Potter's Box ......in large part because my interpretation isn't "first hand" .....I didn't have an opportunity to learn directly from him. But I am a student of Daniel Sheehan, who was a student of Potter. And Sheehan taught about the box along with those cycles. So if I err in my presenting some of those ideas, I'll appreciate if you correct me.

There are various psychological and sociological models that I find helpful in understanding the world of politics. In my opinion, the DU community could benefit from considering them. There are plenty of insightful people here, and we might have beneficial discussions that help each of us to become more effective at the grass roots level.

Solly Mack

(90,758 posts)
28. Dang, Waterman. I'm just looking forward to the enjoyment of reading what you write.
Fri Dec 8, 2017, 02:13 PM
Dec 2017

And that to myself. Not expanding the range of microcosmic dithers. I have a hard enough time deciding on dinner.

It always seemed to me that people had their own versions of Potter's box even if they don't know the name - as they imposed its quadrants with their own labels. But even that tells us a lot about people and gives us direction.

Still, I'm left with what to have for dinner tonight.



Maeve

(42,271 posts)
23. My own image is that of a resistance army
Fri Dec 8, 2017, 12:18 PM
Dec 2017

(Possibly because I'm re-reading the 5th Harry Potter, and am a fan of Tolkein as well, but I digress)

An effective army does not quit when a soldier falls, nor even when a general is lost, but focuses on the goal and ultimate victory. There will be sacrifices along the way, that is a given. And we don't win by becoming what we fight--we hold to our standards or we lose the war no matter how many battles we win.
You are right, the Mueller investigation is going quickly by historic standards. Hold onto the hope. The damage that is being done by the mis-administration will be difficult to repair, but no one worth listening to ever said life is easy. It's always harder to build than to destroy, but that's the challenge we must face.
It will be worth it in the end.

H2O Man

(73,511 posts)
29. Very good!
Fri Dec 8, 2017, 03:44 PM
Dec 2017

I like that. It provides an important perspective. And while I intend no comment on the charges against Senator Franken, I think that his speech yesterday suggested that he believes he is "taking one for the team."

I'm also reminded of Jesse Jackson's call, when he was in the presidential primaries years ago, to "keep hope alive." Like every human being, Jesse was imperfect. But he served as an important voice during some difficult days for democrats, and he accomplished a lot of good.

Thank you!

bullwinkle428

(20,628 posts)
25. K&R. "End of February", eh? Sounds almost like you've got access to
Fri Dec 8, 2017, 12:29 PM
Dec 2017

some inside information!

This is the kind of post that keeps me coming back to DU year after year as a donating member...thank you for expressing so eloquently some of the thoughts that have been running through my head over the last 24 hours.

H2O Man

(73,511 posts)
31. Thank you!
Fri Dec 8, 2017, 03:51 PM
Dec 2017

Mr. Mueller runs a tight ship, so to speak. His team is tighter-lipped than, say, Patrick's was during the Plame investigation grand jury. But I suspect that some of the people near the congressional committee investigations (which have some contact with Team Mueller) will continue to provide interesting information in upcoming weeks. That might be in part a response to the moderate republicans' reaction to the rabid republicans' effort to end those investigations. I think the moderate republicans are becoming increasingly aware of the nature of the Trump-Russian mob, and are afraid of confronting it. Whimper-pups.. Mr. Mueller's team isn't intimidated.

Me.

(35,454 posts)
26. I Agree
Fri Dec 8, 2017, 12:44 PM
Dec 2017

And yet there are some today wishing she never said those words. As for forgiveness, I can to those who support the party and put aside criticism of it. It is a tricky time, I'm shocked to the core that the country has been overrun by monsters and villains and right now we seem helpless to stop the constant harm, that which is being done every day.

On a different note: I miss him too

H2O Man

(73,511 posts)
32. Yes.
Fri Dec 8, 2017, 03:59 PM
Dec 2017

So much of the damage is being done "below the surface," and much of the public is not aware of its extent. But Trump & Co are like a severe virus that is spreading throughout the executive branch, while also infecting the other two branches. It is a mutant form of class warfare, in which the Trump-Russian mob is preparing for an anticipated global crisis. (I'll expand upon that soon.)

It's a strange time. There are a lot of risks. Yet there are an equal number of opportunities, ones that may not continue to be available to us in the future, if we continue on the current path.

H2O Man

(73,511 posts)
33. Thanks!
Fri Dec 8, 2017, 04:04 PM
Dec 2017

I had been "quiet" for a few days, trying to make sense of the madness engulfing DC. But because by my very nature, I have a big mouth, remaining quiet for very long is virtually impossible!

My daughters returned from Ireland last week. They had, among many other things, looked for rural cottages for me to retire to. They think I've done my part in the struggle for social justice, and should live out my remaining time in peace and quiet. But this mouth makes "quiet" a rather unrealistic goal. (grin)

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