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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsAmazing thread about #45's Narcissistic Personality Disorder
Explains some things that I didn't realize about NPD -- and The Donald -- and actually gives me a little optimism about the possible denouement.
THREAD: The Hoarse Whisperer @HoarseWisperer
I understand narcissistic personality disorder like the back of my hand. Trump is as familiar as an old movie, so let me share some intel.1/
6:35 PM - 9 Jul 2017
Link to tweet
- People with narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) seem erratic but they're actually ultra-predictable. They are simple machines. 2/
- There are only two driving impulses: 1) Avoid shame;and 2) Collect adoration and esteem. That's it. There is no other priority or concern 3/
- Trump will do anything humanly possible to try to avoid being publicly shamed/diminished in others' eyes.It's an impulse he can't control 4/
- Take Russia/Putin. If Trump were to acknowledge Russia interfered, he'd be admitting he was less worthy of the presidency. 5/
- Donald Trump would literally sell out his entire family and the country as well to avoid acknowledging that he didn't deserve the office 6/
- He is pathologically incapable of doing anything which admits to the world his worst internal fear: he's unworthy of being seen as special7/
- Now, he has no choice on how he has to play this. He HAS to actually make Putin look worthy of partnership. He has to make the shameful...8/
- ...thing, look unshameful somehow. He has to make shameful hacking and potential collusion somehow seem smart or purposeful or dignified. 9/
- It cannot be done. It makes no logical sense. It will fall apart and as it does, Trump's behavior and lying will get more outlandish. 10/
- But make no mistake, Donald Trump is clinically incapable of doing anything other than what he is doing: trying to avoid the shame of... 11/
- ...being discovered to be illegitimate and unworthy of public respect.
He has an uncontrollable compulsion to avoid that awful truth. 12/
- No matter how absurd each new action or lie sounds, he'll throw even his own family under the bus until there is no way out... 13/
- ...and then he will first explode on everyone and everything around him when he realizes there is no escape... 14/
- It will be the crazy tweetstorm to end all tweetstorms... and then he'll either a) implode in a miserable ball of self-loathing and flee 15/
- ...or concoct some attempt at a face-saving exit. Claiming he's too good for the job or that he's protesting the "deep state"... 16/
- It'll be transparent bullshit that none but the most loco Trumpers believe but he will take it to the grave swearing it's true. 17/
- The key thing to remember in watching Trump is that there are literally only two things going on in his mind at all times. 18/
- 1) Fight to the death to avoid being seen as shameful or underserving of public adoration... 19/
- 2/ Doing whatever it takes to make the people right in front of him think he's powerful, important and special. That's it. 20/
- Auntie-Social Media @Dotard_Tweets
I thought as much| question: b/c he's older & can't tolerate stress, jet-lag, is it likely when he crashes he'll commit act of violence?
- I would think not. Left to their own devices, when the walls truly close in, NPDs tend to fall inward, shut down and flee. 1/
- The wild card w/Trump is his susceptibility to manipulation. As long as the adults in the military keep Bannon, et al, in check, we'll be ok
- My biggest fear early on was that Bannon, et al, would successfully isolate him and keep him away from other sources of info. His media 1/
- ...obsession is our best friend. As long as he gets negative feedback from cable news, the worst actors won't be able to manipulate him well
= new reply since forum marked as read
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enough
(13,256 posts)Not sure what diagnosis explains them.
RandomAccess
(5,210 posts)Doubt that's in the DSM, but -- true nonetheless. 
BigmanPigman
(51,584 posts)They will lie, cheat, whatever, knowing it is wrong yet they continue to do so as long as they benefit. My psychologist told me that 20 years ago. He also said that most politicians are sociopaths.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)RandomAccess
(5,210 posts)How about Greedy, Self-Serving Politician Disorder - GSPD
sofa king
(10,857 posts)I don't think that's made it into the DSM quite yet, but that simple little word covers most of what they're about, doesn't it?
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)Incredible how self destructive he could be as he tried to avoid that shame at all costs. He would make huge obvious errors rather than admit to a minor fault. And he might well suddenly give up in a face-saving deal to avoid penalties and make a profit. Just as my former colleague did.
Or he might blow up the world. But if the generals around him have his number, they know how to stop him. It's actually pretty easy - just say, "you don't want to be the guy who blew up the world by mistake."
sofa king
(10,857 posts)I think that the "walls closing in" tactic was already tried on Trump during the election season, specifically in early August. Here's a post from about when I thought I saw it happening:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=1539853
That was the time to do it, and as I've been pointing out here since W was running off and hiding at Camp David every couple of weeks, self-esteem crashes are easy to create in narcissists, exactly because they are so predictable.
But Trump didn't fold. I don't think he's ever going to fold. In his own mind, Donald Trump is the world. The rest of us are insignificant to his own importance and he'll happily take us all with him.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)But in that case, he thought he still had an out, and he was right. This time, maybe not so much. If he starts throwing his family under the bus to save himself, that will be the tipoff. Narcissists often do that. They can be extremely desctructive to their own families, when the family awakens that sense of shame the narcissist tries so hard to avoid.
On edit: The tweet author and I have experience with NPD where the narcissist does not have potentially unlimited power. In those few cases in history, we are indeed at a very dangerous time.
sofa king
(10,857 posts)I wonder if there is a group psychology version of NPD, and if so, does it describe the Republican Party?
GreenEyedLefty
(2,073 posts)marylandblue
(12,344 posts)Not an actual disorder, but definitely people vulnerable to Trump's message.
paleotn
(17,911 posts)but there's another school of thought...proposed by others who've studied him....that says when things get tough, he has a habit of declaring victory, throwing in the towel and leaving. Much of his bankruptcy history supports that. Problem is, even if he resigns, the investigation won't go away. Then again, I'm not sure he fully understands that. And apparently he's getting some rather shitty legal advice. The latest is....his attorneys want Mueller to give back the emails. What the hell for!!? That horse is long gone and the damage is irreparable.
The only thing I do know for sure is...I'm getting sick and tired of the "you shall live in interesting times" curse.
sofa king
(10,857 posts)Trump requires ever-increasing amounts of public adulation and approval. He knows that the second he steps down, all of that is over, and it might me more important to him than his own life, and obviously anyone else's as well (because anyone else doesn't matter).
George W. Bush is also a narcissist, also stupid, also totally incompetent, also drove the nation straight into the dirt in less than a year, also was on the hook for high crimes from before he started (remember the meetings with oil company execs during his own transition, which were successfully covered up without punishment).
Bush the Dumber spent two years on vacation as President, probably because he was having emotional breakdowns every few weeks and running off to Camp David where his "fluffers" would reinflate his self-esteem. That's probably just what's going on with Orange Julius Caesar right now.
But the most important thing to notice in that comparison is that George W. Bush not only survived as a foolish narcissist President. He was fucking re-elected and got away with absolutely everything.
That's the course of our future, unless we can change it.
RobinA
(9,888 posts)willingly fold. However, he could short circuit. Personally, I think his weak spot and what will get him if anything does is his inability to handle stress. I’ve been calling for a psychotic break since before he took office, which we won’t know about because they will hide him, but we may be able to intuit when (if) we suddenly stop hearing from him for a period of time or hear from him ONLY scripted. When the moronic tweets and comments stop, that’s the tell he’s around the bend.
lindysalsagal
(20,666 posts)I doubt we'll ever get the rat f%^$%@ behind bars.
Orrex
(63,200 posts)I would like him to crumble in a heap, pissing and shitting all over himself while the cameras roll. I want him to flail for his aides while drool courses from his inarticulate jaw.
I want his toupee to be torn from his head as he tumbles past the podium, his snow-white cranium gleaming for all to see in stark contrast with his sprayed on face.
And I will laugh every day that he lingers in that hellish living death, requiring flunkies to feed him and wipe his ass and change his catheter. I will be deaf to the cries of those who call for sympathy and compassion, because he deserves neither sympathy nor compassion.
vlyons
(10,252 posts)I want him to face justice, because justice is a virtue. I want him convicted of money laundering, obstruction of justice and/or sexual predation. Even if it must happen after he leaves office or gets convicted in New York state court. I want to see him marched off in handcuffs. I want to see him on 60 minutes wearing an orange jumpsuit, weilding a mop, or peeling potatoes in prison.
If I supported the death penalty, which I don't, I would stand him before a firing squad for treason. Ditto for his arrogant little snit son-in-law and Don Jr. His day is coming. Karma is just like gravity. It never stops working.
Orrex
(63,200 posts)
PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,841 posts)and especially thank you for taking the time to put it in an easily read format.
RandomAccess
(5,210 posts)
nolabear
(41,959 posts)A person who suffers from NPD (though suffers isn’t the right word because everything stated is an attempt NOT to suffer) sees absolutely everyone else not as a human but as a function of one’s self. The shock and rage felt by someone faced with the actual existence and self motivation of another is similar to what you’d feel if your leg suddenly told you it was going on strike and wasn’t going to work any more.
That’s what ALL those people who think they’re the exception and he won’t throw them away like used toilet paper don’t get. No one is the exception. The closest might be his children because having been raised by him and having some of the same characteristics, they know what to do to stay in his orbit. Up to a point. If I was Jared I’d be crapping my pants right now.
RandomAccess
(5,210 posts)Do you happen to know what causes NPD? Or any theories about it?
nolabear
(41,959 posts)Sometimes it just happens. But early development as a relational human being who sees others as important, friendly, safe, etc. has a lot to do with the way parents and infants attach to one another. Having someone predictably be there when you need them and having yourself reflected back as a loved and important entity makes you more inclined to think of yourself as a part of something bigger and others as an equally important part. You relate. You develop empathy because you had empathy.
If that goes awry people find other ways to survive emotionally and physically. NPD is one of them.
RandomAccess
(5,210 posts)
dixiegrrrrl
(60,010 posts)If he is driven to "whatever it takes to make the people right in front of him think he's powerful, important and special."
he isn't gonna gonna hire smart people, and is/did get rid of people who do not fall for his shit.
He is by now quite capable of knowing who is and who is not likely to put up with his crap.
If there was any doubt of NPD/O, that time when he had all his Cabinet members go round the table and praise him, AND had it filmed, was evidence enough.
vlyons
(10,252 posts)Donald Trump epitomizes how the ego generates the deep darkness of delusion, which is the source of all suffering. Whatever we think expands and enhances our ego is what we crave and are attached to. Whatever attacks or diminishes the ego, is what we are averse to.
Ironically, Buddhists believe that the ego, or self, is empty. It is a construct of the mind, but has no independent, self existence. Look for the self wherever you will, but you won't find it. I could say a lot about emptiness, but it would be pointless here. It took me many years to understand the profundity of this teaching. The irony is that recognizing the nature of ego, of self, makes it very very easy to work for the benefit of others, which is what gov service is supposed to be about. Gov service is not supposed to be a get-rich-quick scheme for liars, thieves, and hypocrites.
Gee, and we wonder why some people hate the gov.
kcr
(15,315 posts)It's common to hear some people say the government should be run like a business. Trump is a good example of why this is a bad idea, for the reasons you say. Governments and businesses have different goals. A businessman has been trained to focus on achieving profits, which is a self-oriented goal. It's all about personal enrichment. Regarding the true nature of self, or rather the lack of it, it's such a hard one to fully grasp, but it makes sense that it would help one focus outside of themselves.
vlyons
(10,252 posts)Most countries rate themselves by GNP, gross national product. But Bhutan, a deeply Buddhist country, is a little different. It literally rates itself on gross national happiness. There is a Dept of Happiness and an annual poll of everyone, asking their degree of happiness. We get so habitually used to seeing things a certain way that it never occurs to us to open our minds to other possibilities. It is the self, the ego, that locks us into habits of being. But when we understand that ego is empty, not an independent self-existent entity, then we have enormous freedom to see infinite different possibilities. And so it is with Trump. He is not a happy man. How much energy he must waste maintaining his habit of defending himself against all criticism and habitually craving approval. Shame on us for electing him to office. He belongs in a Psych Ward, because he is a malignant narcissist.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)up front and center and in the news. Sooner or later, he will do himself in and I can't wait to watch him self-destruct.
Irish_Dem
(46,909 posts)Narcissists and sociopaths can become violent when challenged with their criminal behavior and
are facing consequences. Trump has a history of angry acting out, and is petty, mean and vindictive.
I would not be so quick to say that an aggressive reaction is impossible.
In addition to the personality disorders we are looking at possible dementia, amphetamine (diet pills)
addiction and possible delusional (psychotic) disorder. Not a great combination, and makes for an unpredictable
outcome.
RandomAccess
(5,210 posts)Irish_Dem
(46,909 posts)Sophia4
(3,515 posts)Is there any evidence for that suspicion?
Irish_Dem
(46,909 posts)Which can produce some of the symptoms he displays,
the acting out, manic behavior, grandiosity and paranoia.
He also doesn't appear to sleep much, and has early morning
awakening.
Amphetamine use/abuse has to be ruled in or out.
Sophia4
(3,515 posts)Irish_Dem
(46,909 posts)yardwork
(61,588 posts)Trump is showing signs that he's unable to hold himself together anymore. For example, look at his clothes. He looks disheveled.
What happens when a severe NPD starts to fall apart?
George Custer is a historical example.
RandomAccess
(5,210 posts)a different example. Custer took everyone WITH him -- he "decompensated" a whole regiment while he was at it!
yardwork
(61,588 posts)
mgardener
(1,816 posts)I'd use the word inadequate.
I don't think he feels shame at all.
safeinOhio
(32,671 posts)and you can watch that 1957 movie. Lonesome Rhodes trump.
VOX
(22,976 posts)It’s the one big, discordant note in 45’s need for adulation — most Americans either can’t stand this asshole, or are quickly learning to deplore him.
So he’s settling for the “Love” of that uninformed/alt-right fringe 33% (give or take a point or two). He’s a fucking black belt in underachievement.
bdamomma
(63,836 posts)nt
