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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forumsi'm still confused!! Can he or can't he pardon himself????
if he does what would be the process?? Who would oppose it? Where would the fight take place? Courts? congress?
Irish_Dem
(46,880 posts)We have a corrupt congress.
Renew Deal
(81,852 posts)MineralMan
(146,284 posts)odious. I think it's an area where common sense will illuminate the law.
bluestarone
(16,900 posts)common sense would take hold for sure
shraby
(21,946 posts)Court and pardon; disband congress and pardon; tear up the whole constitution and pardon.
He could do anything he wanted to and pardon, so it is not feasible that he would be allowed to pardon himself.
bluestarone
(16,900 posts)and that is really the truth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
brooklynite
(94,489 posts)Pardoning is the removal of criminal liability for an action. Trump CAN'T "disband congress" and "do away with the Supreme Court" because nobody will let him.
shraby
(21,946 posts)Kentonio
(4,377 posts)You'd imagine they'd rule against it, but these days who knows.
H2O Man
(73,528 posts)DetlefK
(16,423 posts)By extension, a President cannot pardon himself for a crime.
bluestarone
(16,900 posts)God i just can't see this any other way!!!!!!!!!!!!!
onenote
(42,685 posts)DetlefK
(16,423 posts)If you're looking for legal advice don't look in an internet-forum.
onenote
(42,685 posts)In fact, there is nothing in the Constitution or any court decision that would support the contention that a president can't pardon someone involved in criminal activity that also might involve the President.
shanny
(6,709 posts)That is, a president cannot pardon himself because that would involve acting as judge in his own case...or something like that. It has never been tested obviously.*
*a whole lot of things have never been tested, and many more have simply been assumed. I think if we survive this, with an intact government, we will see a lot of normally-expected behaviors made into legal requirements.
unblock
(52,183 posts)a president absolutely can pardon other people for crimes involving the president or the office of president.
self-pardon is an open question, but pardoning other people, even if co-conspirators, i don't think there's any doubt on that.
clearly a president who does such things should be impeached, and perhaps the founders thought that would be enough deterrent, but i can't even think of any constitutional argument preventing the president from pardoning anyone else for any federal crime.
Siwsan
(26,257 posts)If the Constitution allows for "presidential" omnipotence, we need to do some fast patch work and/or write some new amendments.
Maraya1969
(22,474 posts)MaupitiBlue
(18 posts)The short answer is yes. The Constitution places no limits on the president's power to pardon for (federal?) crimes. He can pardon his spouse, neighbor, foreigners, turkeys, and even himself for whatever reason he wants.
Presumably the pardon power's breadth follows from the notion that we always want the criminal justice system to be biased towards exoneration and freedom. The presidential pardon is everyone's last chance at justice and mercy.
MineralMan
(146,284 posts)in the case of impeachment. That's clear. He might be able to pardon himself from criminal charges, but not against impeachment. Since impeachment is the only means of removing a President, aside from the 25th Amendment, which is even more difficult, he can't skate on the impeachment process.
bluestarone
(16,900 posts)we're fucked there right?
MineralMan
(146,284 posts)We CAN change the balance in Congress, but it will require that we all work together to elect Democrats. I hope we have learned that lesson from 2016.
unblock
(52,183 posts)(1) prosecutor (mueller or someone else) indicts him on a federal crime
(2) donnie pardons himself (conceivably he could do this before indictment, or after trial, but i'm guessing it happens in this order, if at all.
(3) trial court rules on whether the pardon applies.
(4) whoever loses appeals to a federal court of appeals
(5) federal court of appeals rules
(6) whoever loses appeals to the u.s. supreme court
(7) supreme court rules.
(8) charges are dismissed or trial proceeds based on the supreme court's decision.
donnie's argument would be that the constitution places no limitation on the power of pardon, so he should be allowed to pardon himself.
the government's (meaning the prosecutor's side, not donnie) position would be that the very concept of a "pardon" necessarily, by definition, involves two separate people, therefore one cannot pardon oneself. personally, i don't see any other constitutional argument for saying there's no self-pardon under the constitution as written.
i think it's obvious that the founders never meant for a tyrant to be able to pardon himself, but they didn't draft it in a way that would clearly prevent it. it would be an interesting case. unfortunately, it will likely stink of partisan politics rather than actual statesmanship and legitimate constitutional interpretation.
a separate question is, would all this take place while donnie is president?
the supreme court also has never decided if a sitting president can be indicted and tried for a criminal offense.
personally, i think now that they have decided that a civil case can proceed against a sitting president (jones v. clinton), i can't see why a criminal case couldn't proceed.
that said, i would think if there's a sentence involving restricting movement (imprisonment or house arrest, e.g.) *that* would have to wait until after the president is out of office.
bluestarone
(16,900 posts)Sessions? (as prosecutor?) just wondering
unblock
(52,183 posts)but yes, it could be rosenstein or sessions.
in theory, anyway.
bench scientist
(1,107 posts)Jones v. Clinton had no bearing on a criminal case brought against a sitting President.
The process for filing a civil suit, versus bringing a criminal indictment, the burdens of proof, the rules by which a civil trial is conducted versus a criminal trial are conducted are vastly different.
The principle reason being what is at stake in both trials. A loss in a civil case may result in a financial penalty paid perhaps an injunction to refrain from an activity or an injunction compelling an activity.
A loss in a criminal case results in the loss of an individuals liberty-imprisonment.
This is why the burdens in criminal cases are always higher than in a civil case.
Bringing criminal charges against a sitting President remains an open question.
unblock
(52,183 posts)nevertheless, the jones precedent would undoubtedly be used as part of the argument that is should be possible to indict and try a sitting president. it won't automatically decide the case, but it would certainly be a consideration.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)and thats that.
that's another scenario i guess
PragmaticDem
(320 posts)GallopingGhost
(2,404 posts)Nixon's lawyers put out tentative feelers on this topic. The difference is Trump is thirty times worse than Nixon. He has no regard for the rule of law (unless it's his), our Constitution, our Republic, any of it.
He would (will) absolutely try to pardon himself. That's going to set off outrage and a constitutional crisis the likes of which this country has never seen.
Gothmog
(145,086 posts)I doubt that Trump can legally pardon himself. The fact that we are having to ask the question is so very very sad https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2017/05/24/could-trump-issue-himself-a-pardon/?utm_term=.5aac3e6356f6
The constitutional language governing pardons reads, The President shall have Power to Grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment. That vagueness is part of the reason the boundaries of the authority would need to be interpreted by the courts in unusual cases, like the one at hand.
That said, Kalts got an opinion about what the Supreme Court would do if Trump (or any president) tried to give himself a pardon: Theyd throw it out.
Kalts reasons are similarly rooted in interpretations of the language of the Constitution and the intent of its authors.
For example, a pardon is inherently something that you get from someone else, he argued. Thats not explicit in the constitutional language, but, then, other boundaries we understand for pardons arent either, such as our understanding that there need not be a criminal charge before a pardon. (The most famous example of this kind of pardon was offered by President Gerald Ford to his predecessor, Richard Nixon.)
P.S. Ruckman, professor of political science at Northern Illinois University and author of the blog Pardon Power agreed with this idea in an email. Supreme Court jurisprudence has always assumed a dichotomy the granter and the recipient, he said the implication being that one person cant play both roles.
Whats more, presidents are supposed to be limited, Kalt said. The president has all of this power, but he has a limited term. If he was able to pardon himself, that would project his power well past his term.
Sneederbunk
(14,289 posts)Xolodno
(6,390 posts)...with that being said, obviously Nixon didn't think so and made a deal with Ford. Granted, he was on his way out anyway...but knew enough that self pardoning could blow up in his face once it went to the courts. Better to strike deal rather than take the risk.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)maybe it will.
redstatebluegirl
(12,265 posts)They will protect each other.
bluestarone
(16,900 posts)the congress and courts needs to FIX this somehow. (assuming of course if they want to)
elleng
(130,861 posts)tammywammy
(26,582 posts)No president has ever pardoned themselves, so there's no ruling on if its constitutional or not.
Kimchijeon
(1,606 posts)Shitbag & crew are helping distract us while they keep robbing us blind. ☹ Longer that piece o garbage stays, the better for corporate goodie grabs.