Russian soldiers 'dying in large numbers' in Ukraine - Nato
Source: BBC
Nato's deputy chief says Russian leaders are less and less able to conceal the deaths of "large numbers" of Russian soldiers in eastern Ukraine.
Alexander Vershbow said Russia's involvement was becoming more unpopular with the Russian public as a result. Russian officials dismissed on Thursday a US claim that Moscow had sent "thousands and thousands" of troops to fight alongside separatists.
A foreign ministry spokesman said the figures were "plucked out of the air".
Ukraine and the West have long accused Russia of helping the rebels with weapons and soldiers. Independent experts echo that accusation but Moscow denies it, insisting that any Russians serving with the rebels are "volunteers".
Read more: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31747754
ya think?
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louis-t
(23,292 posts)
daleo
(21,317 posts)The ones coming back from Iraq, that is? About 4000, if memory serves.
Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)like the story implies the Russians are.
It just followed an 18 year policy of not allowing the press to photograph the coffins or photograph burials in Arlington Cemetery.
While President Obama reversed that policy, photographers still require permission from the family of the deceased before they can photograph the coffin.
Elmer S. E. Dump
(5,751 posts)But if they have family, they will figure it out sooner or later.
Wellstone ruled
(34,661 posts)watch for the widows and mothers march coming to a Kremlin near you.
7962
(11,841 posts)http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-are-we-at-war-ukraine/26555090.html
You'll notice these stories are several months apart too.
7962
(11,841 posts)
DavidDvorkin
(19,473 posts)
freshwest
(53,661 posts)7962
(11,841 posts)freshwest
(53,661 posts)That is from the current page. Before being edited, the September 2013 page read:[2]
A significant portion of Russians of conscript age try to avoid conscription, mostly because of specific code of violence which has developed in the army since 1967 called Dedovshchina and also poor conditions in Russian Army, which makes large number of conscript-age Russian youth worry about their health or even lives while in the army...
Just not going to a draft station – draft-dodging. This is a criminal offence, punishable by up to two years in prison, depending on the time spent dodging. Russian police and military draft boards often perform conscription through detention [1]. Quite often the would-be recruit would avoid signing the papers that require to pass the board instead. Without that, the "invitation" is considered undelivered, and not showing up is not illegal. In practice, that means living a decade off the grid. This is countered by knocking the doors at 5 AM and having the recruit sign before he would become fully conscious...
The Russian voencoms respond by using increasingly illegal means, referring to non-existent laws and acts, "losing" documents that jeopardize the chance of a conscript being deemed fit for duty, and continuous psychological pressure, with 2011 probably being the apex due to a low birthrate in 1993. Those that attempted a medical discharge and failed are often punished for their resistance by assigning them to the worst units and jobs possible, e.g. a conscript with a heart defect was forced to volunteer for contract frontline service because he almost died hulking around 50-kilo cauldrons several times every day, since his defect was 3 mm rather than 5. Voencoms are rumored (no other source is simply possible) to have established an unofficial bonus system for every conscript, especially if he was unfit for duty and yet conscripted...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Russia
Edit shows Russian internet scrubbers are working overtime to the main entry and there is a reference to RT. But what was there in 2013, is preserved in the links at the bottom of the page. Those who don't look at them will miss them. A lot more at the links:
CONSCRIPTION THROUGH DETENTION IN RUSSIA'S ARMED FORCES
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/russia/
Only 11 percent of Russian men enter mandatory military service: general
http://www.spacedaily.com/2002/021206145741.ooyw2y54.html
GRAPHIC PIC WARNING FOR BARE BEHINDS, ETC. OF MALE RECRUITS AT LINK:
Medical examination for new recruits in the Soviet Army - circa 1980s
http://www.ipernity.com/doc/57114/5919363
NSA? Meh-SA! Google never forgets! Your ass is not your own!
BTW: The Evil USA has NO Draft. USA! USA! USA!
America got rid of the Draft, which may be why some think all Russian soldiers are volunteers...
7962
(11,841 posts)they spend little time training, too. Russia has little problem viewing much of the army as cannon fodder; which is one reason their military is so large. Similar to China
happyslug
(14,779 posts)Thus the recruits, when they are drafted already had gone through the equivalent of basic training in High School. The one year service (use to be two years but to address the level of abuse, much of it from the second year soldiers on first year soldiers, the length of service was reduced to one year) is more to get the soldiers to act of one unit, for the next 20 years that will be their unit, that they would serve in if a general mobilization occurs. Training occurs after the one year of service but in small intervals only.
Given this nature, draftees do have safety checks, mostly through the knowledge that if they die, how they died will get back to their family as the rest of the unit is released back home. Since almost all of the men will be from the same area, they will be asked how the dead soldier died by family members of that dead soldier. This can NOT be avoided for all of the men of the unit came from and return to the same area the dead soldier was from. This informal communication system is well known and studied and why locally raised draftee armies are NOT sent overseas UNLESS they is massive support for such a movement. Thus I seriously doubt any DRAFTEES are being sent to the Ukraine. Some may be assigned to units that supports regular army units being sent to the Ukraine, but no draftees. This is supported by the stories I have read about this situation, the stories are that pressure is put on the draftees to enlist in the regular army and then being sent to the Ukraine. Thus they are being sent as Regular soldiers NOT draftees (and you can only become a Regular Soldier after serving your one year draftee service).
If Russia is sending in troops to Ukraine, it is NOT draftees. Draftees are all from the same region or town and thus it is hard to cover up a death of a draftee. Parents and other relatives talk and it is impossible to keep other members of the unit from being asked what happened to the Draftee who died.
On the other hand while on active duty, the push is to get the draftee to enlist in the regular forces, which are the forces sent overseas during peace time (and are the forces, if any forces are being sent, are the forces being sent into the Ukraine). The regular Russian army is more like the US Regular Army, enlisted on a NATIONAL Level and thus NOT tied in with any one city, town or area. If a soldier dies who was in the regular service that death would affect one family, whose contact with other members of the soldier's unit was based on the Soldier not the town the unit was raised in. If a family member wants to find out what happen that family member has to go through official channels, not ask the family of another soldier for the dead soldier family probably does NOT know any other member of his unit.
In the US Army the National Guard is formed on local level. As a member of a National Guard unit you do not only know your fellow soldiers, but their extended families. You meet them shopping, going to church or other social functions for you are from the same small area. Thus it is easy to find out who are the people who were around where your son died in combat. Personal Story. My Father was in a National Guard Unit during WWII. He had enlisted before the war and was mobilised into Federal Service. He served In the Normandy Campaign. He was wounded and sent back to the states to recover. While in the hospital he was visited by the parents of a fellow soldier who had been killed in combat. How did they find out which hospital he was in? His family had been asked by the dead soldier family for both men served in the same Locally raised National Guard Outfit. This informal communication system outdid the whole US Army approach of not telling families how soldiers died, but it only existed in the National Guard and then among members of the National Guard that stayed in that unit for the duration of the War. Once you had draftees in those units, draftees drafted on a national level, that informal communication system could not work. A family from New York City had little ability to locate and talk to a family from Texas about how their son died. On the other hand a family who lives a block away from another family often meet in the same places, same schools, same shops, same parks, same sidewalks, same churches etc. Thus it is HARD to cover up a screw up when it came to National Guard units (and one of the reason the Regular Army hated the National Guard) for the families back home will find out and talk about it among themselves. This is hard to do if you raise troops on a National Level where the only contact the families of the member of the unit have in common is that their sons are in the same unit.
Russia knows this and thus will avoid sending in draftee units for unlike the US Draft, which was to fill in the Regular Army, the Russian Draft is the formation of their equivalent of the National Guard. Russia does NOT Draft to fill in its Regular army units, instead it does what the US Army does, enlist on a Nation wide level so that if a soldier dies, the only connection his family has with the other members of his unit was him. Thus the informal Communication I described above system breaks down and it is much easier to cover up a screw up or an illegal use of such troops. Thus if Russian Troops are in the Ukraine it is REGULAR RUSSIAN ARMY and none of them are draftees (Pressure may have been used to get some of them to enlist, but it is still an enlistment NOT a draft).
Just a comment that the one year service is part of the Russian plan for mobilization if war occurs. Thus Russia is like Germany before WWI, the men are all in the Army, but on 11 months of leave each year (i.e. one month active service is done each year as a member of your local unit). Given the poor level of transportation of Russia, even today, such units are set up and manned locally. If you move, you also transfer to a new reserve unit (This happens in the US with the National Guard all the time). If such a draftee unit incur losses, it will hit one area extremely hard and the people of that area will demand answer and will get it for their are always survivors and they will talk to their neighbors will they get home.
On the other hand a Unit raised on a National Level, the US Draftee army of the 1940s till the early 1970s, the present day "US Volunteer Army", and the Regular Russia army can cover up deaths for such death will affect one family whose ability to talk to survivors of the unit are very limited by distance. Thus it is NOT draftees being sent into the Ukraine (if any are being sent) but Regular Russian Army volunteers.
Side note: The Chinese Army is larger then the Russia Army, but it is also an all Volunteer force. Like Russia military training is part of the Chinese High School Curriculum but when a Chinese male graduate High School he does NOT have to serve in the Chinese Army. One can enlist in the Chinese Army but no one is drafted into the Chinese Army. On the other hand the population has some training in warfare, but are NOT formed into actual units like the Russians and their Universal Military Service system. Thus if Russia and Chine went to war today, China will have the larger army today. Russia would then mobilize their reserves and after a few weeks have more men then China. If the Russians do not win within one year, China would have "Call up" its population and again have the larger army. Right now China and Russia are close allies but I did the above to show the difference between these two armies from HOW their are organized, Decades again Russia was technologically superior, but that is no longer the case but I wanted to show how the Armies are formed and organized for war NOT their actual technological ability to actual fight. This is part of the concept of the "Art of War" not the "Science of War".
7962
(11,841 posts)Assuming that the conscripts are not the ones being sent to Ukraine, and there is no question Russia has sent in troops, then things must be worse for them than I thought. Because if the ones being sent are the better trained forces, it would seem that there wouldnt be so many dead russians coming back. Just as if they were all special forces, the best of the best. But they are still prevailing because there are more russians and rebels than competent Ukrainian forces to push them back. Ukraine was defeating the rebels early last year, then Russia started sending in thousands of troops to gain the upper hand. Its estimated that a couple thousand of them have already been killed. And as you say, families are being told nothing.
So my initial assumption was that the less trained were being sent in to bolster the rebel numbers. If your analysis is correct, the russian army may be even less trained than I first thought
Elmer S. E. Dump
(5,751 posts)Doesn't that pretty much identify them as GOP trolls? Shouldn't they be served some fresh, hot pizza? 
7962
(11,841 posts)Just look around, they're not hard to find. EVERYTHING bad that happens in Venezuela is the US/CIA fault, the Ukraine war was birthed by the CIA, and Muslims are peaceful except for the CIA-created ISIS, AQ, etc.
elias49
(4,259 posts)I hope you do as well!
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)I think it's more horrible that the Russians are lying about it and forcing the families of these young dead men to lie as well.
elias49
(4,259 posts)are coming from all sides.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Russia has fueled this war. Not just instigated it, not just wanted it, but poured men and weapons into it. You're kidding yourself ig you're gonna take the "everyone is equally at fault" approach.
Sometimes the U.S. is at fault (see: Iraq War)
Sometimes we're not.
elias49
(4,259 posts)think harder.
That said, Russia should back off, too, but I don't expect that any time soon.
Xolodno
(6,390 posts)They seem at times giddy about it and if your not or try to engage them rationally...you get called part of the Putin fan club, Putinista, etc. Name call to skirt the attention from them.
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)There are no dead Russians, they are all back home and are peaceful. They never hurt anyone.
on point
(2,506 posts)only the number was plucked from the air implying there ARE Russian soldiers, we just didn't get the number right
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,173 posts)
FLPanhandle
(7,107 posts)There were no official Chinese troops fighting, they were just "volunteers".
I'm surprised Putin hasn't played that card yet.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)VICE covered this in their latest series (part 1 in OP)
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)
NickB79
(19,233 posts)You know how many 2 liters of Mountain Dew you could stuff down a 120mm smoothbore? You could drive for DAYS, man!
FrodosPet
(5,169 posts)"Dew me, Sergei!"
"OK Ivan. The bottle is two miles away imbedded 5 feet deep into a hillside. It's gonna be a while"
7962
(11,841 posts)
R B Garr
(16,950 posts)Look at all the pretty Russian planes lost in the skies.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/19/world/uk-russia-aircraft-intercepted/
mwrguy
(3,245 posts)My grandfather volunteered to fight the fascists in Spain.
So did George Orwell.
EX500rider
(10,839 posts)
PersonNumber503602
(1,134 posts)I wonder if this will turn out to be worth it for Russia. Obviously Russia is suffering economic and diplomatic consequences, and according to this they are losing more than few lives. I notice a lot of distrust toward Russia by its neighbors, which seems to just be pushing them closer to the US/West/NATO. Much like how the US invading Iraq had blow back, I wonder if the gain that Russia may achieve from this is worth the blow back from it.
uhnope
(6,419 posts)unbiased.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)DUers have consistently told me that the Russian Army is only in Ukraine as an "advisory partner" to the "rebels" who have done 100% of the fighting themselves...
