Co-pilot 'tore up sick note' on the day he crashed jet - hid secret illness from company

[Surya Gayatri]

Source: Daily Mail

The Germanwings co-pilot who crashed his plane into a mountain killing himself and 149 people on board was receiving psychiatric counselling right up until the time of the crash, it emerged today.

Andreas Lubitz locked the pilot out the of the Airbus A320's cockpit before setting the plane's controls to descend into a rocky valley, French prosecutors revealed yesterday.



As well as having been signed off from training with depression in 2008, it was reported this morning that Lubitz had continued to receive mental health support up until this week's crash.

The 28-year-old was also in the middle of the 'relationship crisis' with his girlfriend in the weeks before the crash and may have been struggling to cope with a break-up, German newspaper Bild reported.

It was claimed this morning that the couple may have previously been engaged to be married next year.

New information about Lubitz's life emerged just hours after police investigating the disaster began a four-hour search of his flat, which he is said to have shared with a girlfriend. Officers found 'evidence of mental illness' but no suicide note, Der Spiegel reported.

It is understood detectives have found significant material on Lubitz's computer, which they are now carefully examining for any explanation for his terrible actions.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3013743/Germanwings-pilot-slipped-safety-net-devastating-consequences.html

[Bosonic]

1. Germanwings co-pilot 'hid illness from employers'

Germanwings co-pilot 'hid illness from employers'

German prosecutors say they have discovered evidence to suggest that Germanwings co-pilot Andreas Lubitz was hiding illness from his employers before the plane crash earlier this week.

All 150 people on board the flight were killed when it went down in the Alps, with Lubitz believed to have intentionally brought the aircraft down.

http://www.itv.com/news/story/2015-03-27/germanwings-co-pilot-hid-illness-from-employers/

[Surya Gayatri]

2. Wow! Chilling cartoon...his inner demons got the better

of him and 149 other people paid the price.

[Sunlei]

3. German News reports the facts. He probably was on medications as part of 'treatment'

Documents with medical contents were confiscated that point towards an existing illness and corresponding treatment by doctors.

The fact there are sick notes saying he was unable to work, among other things, that were found torn up, which were recent and even from the day of the crime, support the assumption based on the preliminary examination that the deceased hid his illness from his employer and his professional colleagues.

– German prosecutors office

[Surya Gayatri]

4. Lufthansa management must be in hyper-crisis mode right now...

Their liability as regards pilot assessment will clearly be an issue.

Aviation lawyers are saying they may face multi-million $ suits.

Germanwings may face multi-million dollar compensation claims over crash

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/27/germanwings-may-face-multi-million-dollar-compensation-claims-over-crash

[heaven05]

6. May face?

will is more like it.

[Surya Gayatri]

10. ^^^This!^^^

[Sunlei]

8. They should sue the "antidepression Drug" Corps.

If he was on medication as part of his 'secret treatment'

I think this airline and the German news will continue to report the facts.

[Surya Gayatri]

12. Yeah, god knows what potentially lethal cocktail the guy was on...

[Sunlei]

15. or off, some of those side effects happen when people stop taking the drug abruptly.

like stop a couple days before routine pre-flight drug test.

There have been more then one flight crew have psy. episodes that were on these medications. Same for some of the recent mass shooters.

[Surya Gayatri]

16. This info will be coming out shortly. And yes, stopping

the drug abruptly can often be more dangerous than taking it.

[Sunlei]

18. Anyway, it is the Drug Corps that should be sued and the Doctors who rx these drugs.

Better labeling of side effects & much more monitoring of patients for side effects.

[eggplant]

32. Oh, please.

Not all problems are caused by medication.

[Sunlei]

57. medication with known, very serious, side effects.

let's wait and see what medication the 'secret treatment' Doctor RXed and then we can list the side effects.

[eggplant]

80. You are making a gross generalization regarding the one incident in the OP

And it is inappropriate to do so. All medication can have side-effects, not merely those used in the mental health field. Ranting about Big Pharma isn't helpful here.

[eggplant]

92. Let's be clear here.

[jwirr]

42. And deciding to comit suicide would be a reason to stop taking them.

[Surya Gayatri]

45. Exactly...

[uppityperson]

69. That is a great and chilling graphic of depression. Thank you.

[heaven05]

7. Institutionalize all of them?

Everyone on medication or in counseling? Really????????

[Surya Gayatri]

11. No, of course not, but keep them away from professions

where they have the lives of hundreds in their hands. That, at least!!

[heaven05]

19. 100% percent agree

Last edited Fri Mar 27, 2015, 10:32 AM - Edit history (1)

and since the american police forces and private security forces seem to have a lot of people with difficulties like it is alleged this pilot had, them too.

[Surya Gayatri]

46. Could not agree more--same stringent regulations for

those who handle firearms as part of their job.

[progressoid]

41. Really? How would you do that?

Although fewer than 6 percent of American adults will have a severe mental illness in a given year, according to a 2005 study, many more—more than a quarter each year—will have some diagnosable mental disorder. That’s a lot of people. Almost 50 percent of Americans (46.4 percent to be exact) will have a diagnosable mental illness in their lifetimes, based on the previous edition, the DSM-IV.

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2013/04/diagnostic_and_statistical_manual_fifth_edition_why_will_half_the_u_s_population.html

[Surya Gayatri]

44. Just keep them the hell away from potentially deadly,

speedy forms of transport (and any other professions) where split second decisions and mental stability are the difference between life and death.

[progressoid]

47. So anyone with a mental illness can't get a driver's license.

What will happen is that millions of people who should be receiving help will not get it in fear of loosing their driving privileges.

Stupid stupid stupid.

[Surya Gayatri]

49. I have repeatedly spoken of 'forms of high-speed, MASS transit...'

No, sorry, stupid or not, a private citizen's driving licence can in no way be compared to a commercial pilot's licence or high-speed train driver's certification.

[Fred Sanders]

54. What about a commercial truckers license...or a ship Captain....crane operator, air force pilots....or....etc?

Why the "high speed" caveat?

[Surya Gayatri]

56. Where high-speed, instantaneous decisions are called for,

the need is greater. The higher the speed, the more people's lives directly at risk, the greater the need.

That said, yes, commercial trucking companies, high-risk public works concerns, etc. should be able to access the psych and physical health status of their employees.

[Sunlei]

60. no, label the medication as 'do not drive' & make sure the random drug screens check for use.

[progressoid]

71. What medication?

[jmowreader]

96. Are you planning to do routine 200-drug assays on every transportation worker?

There are so many prescription medicines - IN ADDITION TO ANTIDEPRESSANTS - that make you unsafe to handle heavy machinery. If you want to test for them all you can...but it's gonna cost you about $750 to test one worker one time, and you gotta pull several tubes of blood because some of that shit doesn't pass into urine.

[uppityperson]

70. I hope you rethink that after recognizing there are many different types and degrees of psych issues

Some of course should not be airline pilots. For most there is no reason to not have a job.

Downthread you write "commercial trucking companies, high-risk public works concerns, etc. should be able to access the psych and physical health status of their employees." Aside from the privacy concerns and rank ability to misuse this information, because of the stigma attached already it is too common for people to not seek help when the problem is small but wait for it to become a more serious issue.

[Surya Gayatri]

73. Delicate balance, admittedly, but when hundreds of people's lives are

in the balance, the right to know has to override the right to privacy.

Of course, there are as many permutations of mental issues as there are people.

But, as I said elsewhere, when I'm in one of my 'manic' or 'lowdown' phases, I wouldn't want me anywhere near the controls of a commercial aircraft, high-speed train, 18 wheeler or 20-storey tall crane.

And, I wouldn't want anybody with similar psych issues there either.

[uppityperson]

75. Depression, anxiety, bipolar. All different with some overlapping parts.

Here is a link with some info talking about the differences and similarities.

http://www.anxietycoach.com/anxiety-and-depression.html

[Surya Gayatri]

79. Thanks for the link--will bookmark for later reading...

[uppityperson]

72. If a person seeks help for a problem before it gets severe enough to impact anything, they should

be banned from professions where they have the ability to harm others?

Grocers. Truck drivers. Restaurant workers. Health care. Teachers. Taxi drivers. Factory workers. Etc etc etc etc etc.

If I sought mental health help after being raped, I should lose my job and not even be able to work at McDonalds?

If I am on anti-depressants, succesfully, for years, I should be banned from working in my profession?

I understand the desire to make sense of this tragedy, but what you propose unfairly targets many people as well as increases stigma while decreasing the likelihood people will get help when it is needed.

Please rethink this.

[Surya Gayatri]

77. I'm saying that, in professions and positions where instant reactions and split-second

decisions are daily on-the-job realities, the requirement for full disclosure must be very stringent.

Frequent and thorough psych evaluations, including CCTV monitoring (the need for in-cockpit CCTV monitoring is being discussed as we speak),

Unscheduled, random testing for use of psychotropic substances,

Threat of immediate dismissal if employee willfully hides a medical/mental condition from his employer.

Sorry, but the lives and safety of the greater number must override the right to privacy of the individual.

[uppityperson]

81. So me, taking ssri for years, successfully, should be randomly tested and banned from working

as a nurse.

This inspired me to write an OP. And with that, I think I am done with DU for today.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026423534

[Surya Gayatri]

82. No, not if you've been thoroughly assessed by a mental health expert,

your employer is aware of your status, and you are not put in charge of life-threatening, split second situations in an operating room, for example, if your meds can in any way affect your reactions and judgment.

Here's another thread I posted to balance out the discussion a bit:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026422941

Don’t blame depression for the Germanwings tragedy

[uppityperson]

83. What other health issues are you including in this? Why should I be barred from the operating room?

Why should I have to disclose this to my employer?

Should I need to disclose my cholesterol levels because I might have a heart attack? Should I be mandated telling them I took aspirin for a headache and might suddenly vomit blood or have a bleed in my brain? Will diabetics be mandated informing their employers and being barred from their work because they might have low blood sugar and be unable to function?

What other health conditions should employers know of, what treatments by physicians, what mandated thorough health expert examinations?

Why should I be barred from the OR? What other places should I not be able to work due to having some sort of not-perfect health, physical or mental?

[Surya Gayatri]

85. Did you read the rest of the sentence?

'if meds can in any way affect ones reactions and judgment,' a person should not be in charge of any situation requiring life-threatening, split-second decisions.

And that call would ideally be left to the docs and mental health experts.

[Yo_Mama]

103. Nice post, great points.

A lot of people function very well with some form of mental illness. Surely it should be a case-by-case determination!

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a higher standard for a pilot than for many other professions, but a descriptive word doesn't say much about the objective condition of the person being treated. Many people with depression symptoms function very well on modern treatments, and they may in fact be far more competent than another person who has no mental illness diagnosis!

Nor do we even know this man's real condition. Okay, he had depression, but he had had that before. It's entirely possible that something else was going wrong with him at this time.

Hell, you can go right off your head on some antivirals! Are we going to start locking everyone up under quarantine for ten days who has taken Tamiflu?

I knew a woman who abruptly developed severe delusions. I reported it to her doctor. He thought it over for several weeks and then sent her from some tests. Brain lesions, spinal column lesions, confirmed poor conductivity in the peripheral nerves. MS. Treatment promptly resolved the lesions and she has been fine ever since - she's a very bright and competent woman.

I think we're jumping the shark here!

[Surya Gayatri]

9. And in the case of a profession where the

subject has hundreds of lives in his hands--inexcusable.

Lawyers are mobilizing as we speak. The ultimate viability of 'Germanwings' is being questioned.

Obviously a major breakdown in the 'fit to fly' assessment process.

[Sunlei]

13. That would be 'crazy' to lock depressed persons away. They would get worse, not better!

IMO the anti-depressant drugs are handed out like candy. Those drugs have major side effects.

[uppityperson]

67. All medicines have major side effects and can be misused. Anti-depressants have saved the lives

of many people and to claim they do not is incredibly insensitive to a huge number of people.

Neither aspirin (with its serious side effects of hemorrhage and kidney failure) nor anti-depressants should be "handed out like candy" but the stigma against properly used medicine and the people who it helps is incredible.

[Kelvin Mace]

14. People who require

Treatment or medication are "crazy and should be locked up"?

"Stigmatizing" is precisely why people avoid treatment and keep things secret, which causes problems like this.

[Surya Gayatri]

17. Exactly...there is speculation that he may have been driven

Last edited Fri Mar 27, 2015, 11:15 AM - Edit history (1)

over the edge at the prospect of having his licence revoked if his illness was discovered.

[Fred Sanders]

23. There is indeed no shortage of speculation.

[Surya Gayatri]

24. But, increasingly based on facts from the field. Thankfully.

We will soon know what noxious cocktail of mind-altering drugs he was on, or worse, just off.

[bklyncowgirl]

22. On the other hand people with severe depression should not be flying airplanes

Assignment to other duties would be the humane and responsible thing to do.

[Kelvin Mace]

26. Sure, as long as they get comprehensive

And supportive treatment. Which we don't do.

[alarimer]

20. Now I guess we'll see even more stigmatizing of people with mental illness.

We may never know the "why", but I am certain this cannot help the stigma that people with depression feel.

Now there are calls for eliminating them from this profession. How would that work? Someone admits to a problem and they are immediately removed from their job, possibly the only thing they have that they enjoy, assuming they do enjoy it. Which given the mergers (in the US at least) and the pay cuts and the retirement cuts, etc., is a tall order.

I don't think "someone with depression" = "mass murderer" and it makes me ill to think we are going down this road yet again.

[mopinko]

29. yup.

and meds that keep many of us functioning will be blasted by people who know nothing.

[Dont call me Shirley]

30. ...

[eggplant]

33. By some people in this very thread.

Ignorance sucks.

[mopinko]

35. happens every time.

and it makes me sick to see it here.

[Surya Gayatri]

31. As someone upthread suggested, transfer them temporarily

to some ground job.

No one with this dubious psych profile should be allowed anywhere near a cockpit, steering wheel or driver's cab where the lives and safety of hundreds are in the balance.

Letting someone this unstable fly commercially is tantamount to permitting a heart patient to be at the controls.

[mopinko]

34. and how do you intend to ascertain this information?

medical records, especially psyche records, are confidential. they are protected by law.
so, how do you propose to evaluate this?

answer- you cant. at least not in civilized society.
and not without adding to the burden of the stigma that those w flawed brains already feel.

yours is a pipe dream.

[Surya Gayatri]

36. Well, this pipedream is about to get very real for

the Lufthansa management.

I'm sure they are tightening up their 'reporting' requirements as we speak, psych records or not.

Penalty: immediate dismissal for withholding pertinent medical info (including psych status) from management.

[mopinko]

37. stupid. just stupid.

sorry. not gonna happen. and it shouldnt.

you seem to think there is some kind of bright line here, but there isnt. millions do their jobs, and do them well, in spite of their handicaps. but they dont crash planes or kill a lot of people. so you dont know anything about them.

you plan would hurt a lot of innocent people.

[Surya Gayatri]

38. If you are taking a mind-altering, pschotropic drug, you should not

be in charge of a commerical airliner.

One would think that's a given.

Obviously, there are thousands of jobs that people under psych treatment can do, just not flying a multi-ton airliner or driving a high-speed train, for example.

As for not knowing anything about 'them', I happen to be one of 'them'.

I have been under psych treatment at various times in my life--and I wouldn't have wanted somebody like me anywhere near the controls of a plane I was flying in.

[mopinko]

40. sounds like his shrink told him that.

dont blame the patient, blame the shrink.
shrinks have a duty to report patients that are at risk of endangering others. sounds like his should have.

destroying people's privacy and livelihood in unlikely to bring about the solution that you so simplemindedly are pushing here.

and i would like to remind you that this community has many, many members who have mental illnesses. you are calling them all potential murderers. please stop it.

[Surya Gayatri]

48. I am calling no-one a 'potential murderer'...and I agree that his shrink bears responsibilty, also..

May I remind you of what I, a member of this forum, said earlier:

"I have been under psych treatment at various times in my life (and am so at the moment)--and I wouldn't have wanted somebody like me anywhere near the controls of a plane I was flying in."

I'm sure his shrink is being questioned by German authorities as we speak.

[mopinko]

53. and would you want to have to share this w your employer?

be required by law to report this?
would you be okay w being fired for this? because you very well might be.

most depressed people wouldnt even take this job on. most depressed people are painfully aware of their faults.

[Surya Gayatri]

55. Well, I certainly wouldn't want to wait until I snapped and took 150 souls

down with me.

What kind of question is that? If I had a job where I was in charge of the lives of hundreds of people, I would expect that it was incumbent upon my employer to do due diligence, and insist on knowing my fitness to fly--through legal restrictions and labor law, if necessary.

[progressoid]

43. +1

[Ms. Toad]

39. Germanwings actually had a procedure

'We have at Lufthansa, a reporting system where crew can report – without being punished – their own problems, or they can report about the problems of others without any kind of punishment. All the safety nets we are all so proud of here have not worked in this case.’

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3013743/Germanwings-pilot-slipped-safety-net-devastating-consequences.html#ixzz3Vb2FOSPP
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

It obviously isn't foolproof - but there is a procedure.

[Surya Gayatri]

50. Which is likely to be revised and tightened up in the wake of all of this...

[cbdo2007]

87. What if it is their first incident? Soem people you just can't reach.

[Surya Gayatri]

89. That would depend on the gravity and scope of the incident, surely?

[cbdo2007]

90. No, I saying what if flying a plane into a mountain is their first incident....

many people commit suicide without prior warning except to their loved ones, and haven't received ANY "treatment" for their mental illness.

[Surya Gayatri]

91. So true, how many times do we hear, 'but there were no signs...'

My own nephew committed suicide at 24 with absolutely no prior indications. Took a shotgun and put it in his mouth after an evening partying with friends.

There were signs and priors here, though. All the more reason for stringent psych profiling and reporting for those who hold the fate of hundreds in their hands.

[uppityperson]

68. Reading down the replies to here, they are here and it is incredible.

[smirkymonkey]

95. +1000

[Fred Sanders]

21. So begins the corporate defence against lawsuits...the lawyers imprint is all over this.

[Surya Gayatri]

25. Lufthansa's lawyers are certainly working 24-hour days...

That said, the facts are beginning to emerge from both German and French public prosecutors' offices, which we would hope are not directly corruptible by Lufthansa & Cie.

The guy was manifestly mentally unstable, which begs the question--what was he doing in the cockpit?

[duhneece]

27. Sad that when I saw his pic, I'm glad he's not from Mid-East

Now that is a sad state of affairs...in so many ways.

[Surya Gayatri]

28. Yeah, sad commentary. What a messed up world...

[Liberalagogo]

52. So when is Pat Robertson

going to start blaming this crash on heterosexuals instead of Muslims and gays?

[hunter]

58. Shit, I hate these threads.

The "lock 'em all up" or "blame the drugs" response are exactly why so many people hide their illnesses, especially in absurdly competitive professions like airline pilot, brain surgeon, etc.. They've invested so much in getting into these professions that I imagine the threat of losing their license is much worse than death, possibly provoking extreme anger at the entire "system" and all humanity. But that's just speculation on my part, almost as bad as the responses I'm complaining about.

I do have some personal experience with these issues. I take some fairly powerful meds with unpleasant side effects to deal with depression and OCD, among other things, but the alternative of no-meds is much worse, as anyone who has ever lived with my unmedicated self would attest. My natural off-my-meds state is feral, invisible, a dumpster diving homeless person. In that state others are a much greater danger to me than I am to them.

It's also easy for me to picture a society where mental illness isn't a big deal, a society where a person who is having an especially bad day can simply chill out and miss work with no serious consequences.

My mom is probably bipolar, but she's from a time people didn't talk about those things. She and her mom were always able to force themselves through the workday, and my grandma took great pride that "she never missed a day at work," and was extremely critical of those who did, but sometimes when my mom or grandma were home from work all holy hell would break loose. That's how I acquired some of my invisibility skills, which later served me well during my own bad times.

[Surya Gayatri]

61. I also have a borderline bi-polar component. I wouldn't

want me anywhere near the controls of an airliner or an operating room when I'm in one of my nearly 'manic' or 'lowdown' phases.

[hunter]

65. A complicating factor, at least with me...

... is that the ability to judge my own mental state is frequently the first thing to fly out the window, even very basic things..

What do you mean you "forgot to eat?" is a question I've been asked many times, especially before modern meds.

I've had jobs that involve a certain life-or-death attention to detail, but only those that are compatible with my OCD.

[Surya Gayatri]

66. Wow, know this scenario SO well...

I seem more or less normal to myself, but have a sneaking suspicion that others won't find me so.

Major incentive to conceal the truth, both from myself and others.

[Doc Holliday]

59. I'm gratified

(for the sake of the sane people) that the co-pilot's actual problem has come to light. I was really getting tired of hearing AM wingnut radio go on and on about this story yesterday, with their emphasis being on his 'religious affiliation' rather than any discussion about his mental health. (Although a case could be made that any religious zealot has mental problems galore....)

[Surya Gayatri]

63. Let's just hope this tragedy leads to a tightening up of what the French

call the internal 'garde-fou' (safeguard) procedures.

[magical thyme]

62. the clinic denies co-pilot was treated for depression

"They would not confirm details due to privacy laws, but denied that he had received treatment there for depression."

http://www.itv.com/news/story/2015-03-27/germanwings-co-pilot-hid-illness-from-employers/

[Surya Gayatri]

64. Details will soon emerge on reason for 'sick notes' that he is

alleged to have torn up or hidden from his employer.

[TeeYiYi]

74. Maybe his mom wrote 'em.

TYY

[cbdo2007]

88. Many clinics do not treat anyone for depression....like a PCP office wouldn't give

"treatment" for depression, though they may write prescriptions. Do we know what type of clinic it is?

[riderinthestorm]

94. This clinic is going to have to disclose his illness. It's inevitable

every airline on the planet deserves to know what illness it was that caused a 27 yr old in the prime of his life to calmly (judging by his calm breathing) slam a plane with 149 people in it, into a mountain.

No way should that be kept confidential. The guy's dead. Why the need to keep this a secret when there's valuable info here that can be useful in the future?

Compounding the tragedy would be that some other pilot with a similar dx (and/or drug regime or lack thereof) does this again.

[magical thyme]

98. they'll share it with the investigators/authorities

who can then share it with the media when they choose to. At this point it is evidence in a crime as well as info that is protected by law. They have no reason to blab it to the media, and every reason not to.

[gwheezie]

76. I read a report he was dx with diabetes

Since we're speculating. Maybe insulin made him do it.

[Surya Gayatri]

78. Have not heard that...diabetic coma?

[gwheezie]

84. I should have noted sarcasm

I have no idea. Just speculating the clinic said he wasn't being treated for depression. There are many illnesses that could effect behavior and cognition that have nothing to do with mental illness. There are many non psych meds that can make you psychotic. Until there is accurate reporting its all speculation.

[Surya Gayatri]

86. The pile of undisclosed sicknotes at his home would tend to

argue that he was under treatment or assessment for a condition that he did not wish his employer to know about.

[gwheezie]

93. Correct

Could be any one of a number of ailments.

[magical thyme]

99. pointless to speculate.

And no, diabetic coma would have been accompanied by kussmaul respiration while his body tried to blow off CO2. Iow, they would have heard abnormal breathing on the recording.

[jmowreader]

97. Let's really go off on a tangent

Type 1 diabetes is a "disqualifying medical condition" - one that can, and usually will, end your career in aviation - for pilots in the US. It's probably the same in Germany.

His friends have said flying airliners was all he ever wanted to do with his life, and when he got the Germanwings job he was just so happy.

Now follow along: We don't know what the doctors' notes said because Germany has had serious privacy laws for a very long time. If his diabetes was getting worse he could have been grounded at his next physical. Maybe he just decided to go out in a blaze of glory.

[Surya Gayatri]

100. He did decide to do just that...

See here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141051549

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026426967

Germanwings co-pilot Andreas Lubitz ‘wanted to make everyone remember him’

'I'm planning a heinous act that will be remembered forever'...

[jmowreader]

101. Now we have to figure out why

[Surya Gayatri]

102. Yes, for the sake of 'white knuckle' flyers the world over...

and even just those who are vaguely apprehensive.

Unfortunately, some super-sensitive souls feel that just evoking his mental health status is a stigmatization of mental health sufferers everywhere, including those on this forum.