Movement To Change The Name Of Columbus Day Gaining Momentum

[LiberalElite]

Source: CBS

SACRAMENTO (CBS13) – For most of the country, today is Columbus Day. But many communities are working to change that.

Demonstrators marched through the streets of Seattle Sunday, calling for the holiday to be abolished.

Read more: http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2015/10/12/movement-to-change-the-name-of-columbus-day-gaining-momentum/

[tclambert]

1. So are they gonna rename Columbus, Ohio, too?

They'd probably go for Woodyville or Hayesburg.

[NonMetro]

7. How about the District Of Columbia?

That stems from the name Columbus, too. Right now, of course, considering this Republican congress we have, District of Idiots Would probably work, but I don't think it would ever make it out of committee - might not even make it that far!

[tclambert]

15. District of Columbia is cool.

Just refer to this Columbia:

[YOHABLO]

17. What is interesting is that the city surrounding the cesspool of shite is very liberal.

Yeah, Cesspool of Shite would be a good name. So from D.C. to C.S.

[JackRiddler]

25. And what if they did?

What would be the damage to the world?

[Binkie The Clown]

2. I vote for Columbo Day.

[840high]

5. That's my man.

[edgineered]

13. His tactics -

Most times you learn more by not asking. When that fails switch to if you don't ask you'll never know.

[tclambert]

14. I have just one question about that . . .

Now where did I put that thing? It was in this pocket, or was it that pocket? Oh, it's here in my notebook. Let me see, you said you took the 8:45 train, but the trains weren't running that night. So, where were you? You were right here murdering someone, weren't you? And then Westley said, "As you wish." And now we get into a kissing part, so we'll skip that.

I think I got a little off track there at the end.

[oberliner]

3. It was meant as a day to honor Italian-Americans

It didn't become a US holiday until the 20th century and was promoted by Italian-American heritage groups.

[YOHABLO]

18. Then call it Italian-American Day. St. Patrick was a sainted priest.

Quite honestly do we really need this Holiday? Who benefits? Bankers and Federal Workers.

[CreekDog]

44. do you think America has too many holidays?

that the Americans that get this holiday need to work harder?

[JackRiddler]

23. I nominate Galileo.

A world-historic figure of equal stature, but for good reasons. And arguably modern scientific method is a bigger discovery than that of the American continents by European empires. At least it's an actual discovery.

There should be a Galileo Day and an Indigenous Peoples' Day. Let's have another holiday, yay!

[Blue_In_AK]

4. Alaska and Anchorage have declared today Indigenous People's Day.

I'm kind of proud of us.

[mpcamb]

9. I like that.

[wordpix]

52. my idea, too ---I would call it Native American Day

since some people don't know "indigenous." Teach how Native Americans, the buffalo and other species were destroyed by the white man.

[harun]

61. +1

[NonMetro]

6. Who Was Here First Is Not The Point.

Whether we like it or not, 1492 marks a turning point is the history of the world. And whether we like him or not, Columbus did make a discovery, even though he never realized himself how momentous it was. Because prior to that time, nobody on earth, including Native Americans or Europeans, or anyone else, knew either the extent nor the geography of this planet. And again, whether we like it or not, his discovery exponentially expanded human knowledge, and was the starting point for what would become the greatest civilazations this world has ever known, ours included.

Do we like the history, or how this all played out. No! But that's history, and nothing can change it. If people don't want to recognize or understand what happened, that's up to them. It's a free country, and whether we like it or not, that started with Columbus, too.

[mpcamb]

8. Amen. Leave it alone.

Good enough reason for a final calendar holiday when you might get away with a tee shirt here in the north.
I like the Italian-American aspect, too.
A lot of other people did the enslaving. CC just brought the world into a new phase. I don't see any harm in recognizing that.

[NonMetro]

10. Well, If We Want To Condemn Everyone Who Ever Owned Slaves,

There goes most of the Founders. And I'm not Italian, but I like the Italian aspect, too. It recognizes a great contribution from Southern Europe!

[Old Crow]

12. I'm not sure either of you are aware...

... of just how atrocious Columbus's behavior in the New World was. Until recently, I wasn't.

A few highlights:
1. Forcing of native girls into sexual slavery, with girls (according to Columbus's own notes) aged 9 or 10 fetching the highest prices.
2. Chopping off of the hands of natives 14 years old or older who failed to produce a tribute of about a thimbleful of gold dust every 90 days. Columbus made the punished natives wear their severed hands around their necks while they bled to death. Approximately 10,000 natives died from hand amputation.
3. Use of large hunting dogs to tear natives limb from limb as punishment for attempted escape. Chroniclers in letters and diaries described the routine feeding of native babies and infants to the dogs as food.

Considering that Christopher Columbus never set foot in North America--only Central America and Cuba--I see no compelling reason for the United States to dedicate one day a year to the memory of this psychopath. Heck, even if he had set foot on the North American continent, I wouldn't want him honored.

[Skittles]

20. they most certainly are not

no indeed

[passiveporcupine]

21. If what you say is true, I couldn't agree more

Where did you find out about this? How can we get it changed so it's not taught in schools the way I learned it?

[Old Crow]

27. I've been reading up on Columbus over the past few years.

Below are a few links with more information.

I'm not sure how the school curricula can be altered regarding Columbus, but I'm open to ideas. Perhaps getting some more accurate historical accounts onto high school reading lists would be the way to start. The first link below is an excerpt from Ward Churchill's Indians are Us: Culture and Genocide in Native North America (Common Courage Press, 1994).

http://www.mit.edu/~thistle/v9/9.11/1columbus.html

http://www.americanindiansource.com/columbusday.html

http://usuncut.com/world/7-myths-and-atrocities-of-christopher-columbus-that-will-make-you-cringe/

[Psephos]

29. Ward Churchill????

Please read some neutral sources based on evidence and not the rantings of a proven con man.

History must be read without the filter of an ideological agenda. Otherwise, it's only propaganda.

From my own experience, those with strong political convictions generally only read works by historians who assert the same ideology. It's painfully obvious that won't produce objective understanding...but due to selection bias, those who fall prey to this practice respond with anger and ridicule as they pretend otherwise.

[Old Crow]

33. Point taken.

I don't like Churchill's constant comparisons of Columbus to the Nazis myself. That said, I don't think you're going to find any history that's free of an ideological agenda, whether the subject is Christopher Columbus (whose behavior was whitewashed since the time of Washington Irving's bio) or Thomas Jefferson.

Fortunately, in the case of Columbus, we have his diaries and letters and the memoirs of some of his associates, all of which can be consulted without intermediaries (although, admittedly, I've only read them in translation). Those primary sources do an excellent job of recording the horrific treatment the Tainos, Arawaks, and other indigenous people experienced under Columbus.

If you're looking for a secondary source more reputable than Ward, try The Conquest of Paradise by Patrick Sale (Plume, 1991).

[Psephos]

34. I will look for the Patrick Sale book. Thank you for the suggestion. n/t

[Old Crow]

35. My pleasure. (N/T)

[passiveporcupine]

31. thanks, I'll check out your links when I can keep my eyes open

Time for bed now.

[frizzled]

37. The point stands: all the founding fathers are evil by any reasonable standard

Let's declare year zero, tear down the monuments, and start over.

[Old Crow]

38. Can't agree with you.

"All the founding fathers are evil by any reasonable standard"?

Washington owned slaves and freed all of them in his will. Franklin owned two slaves, joined an abolitionist movement founded by the Quakers, and freed both of them. Jefferson's history with slavery is, of course, a lot more complex.

But to suggest that any of these three did anything comparable to the brutal campaign of genocide waged by Christopher Columbus on the indigenous Americans is way off the mark.

The chief complaint I have with your last post here is that you seem to be suggesting that since no one is blameless, everyone's equally guilty. That couldn't be farther from the truth.

[frizzled]

39. They don't all need to be equally evil to be all evil.

nt

[Old Crow]

40. Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

For my part, I really admire Washington, Franklin, and particularly Jefferson, while still cognizant of their flaws.

I can't say the same for Columbus. Captain John Smith I admire, certainly. He interacted with Native American tribes that were far more hostile than those Columbus encountered, but never treated them with inhuman cruelty. Plus, Columbus's navigational and cartography skills couldn't hold a candle to Smith's. Smith's maps of the Chesapeake Bay, for example, were so accurate that they were used well into the 1800s. Columbus, by contrast, died thinking Japan was somewhere north of Cuba.

[NonMetro]

43. Sure. But what pressures was Columbus under?

What if he had returned to Spain with nothing to show the Spanish monarch's for their investment? And what do we call it when we, the heirs of hundreds of years of historical research and scholarship, act all superior and retroactively apply modern norms and standards to those who lived hundreds of years ago, completely denigrating them and their memory, even to the point of denying that they achieved anything at all? Are we so superior in our knowledge that no one in the future is ever going to come along and prove us wrong? Do we know everything about everything, and there is no possibility we could be wrong ourselves?

In the meanwhile, there are people in this world today still cutting off hands and feet, and mutilating the vagina's of young girls, not to mention beheading people, among other gruesome and horrible things. All happening today. What are we doing about it? And many native Americans, along with tens of millions of other Americans are today - right now! - are suffering from poverty and degradation. What are we superior judges of those who went before doing about that?

I guess we can always hope people in the future aren't as harsh in their judgment of us as we are in our judgment of those who lived hundreds of years ago!

[Old Crow]

53. I can't agree with anything in your post.

To be blunt, you're making a lot of excuses for genocidal behavior that was considered sadistically cruel even at the time.

To address your points:

1. Columbus's pressures were of his own making. He is the one who proposed the voyage to Ferdinand and Isabella, and from the beginning, the motive was always his own fame and enrichment. Furthermore, the Spanish Monarchy was not pressuring him to succeed. They regarded his voyages as relatively small investments that might, or might not, pay off. The only consequence Columbus ever faced for under-performing was a withdrawal of funding.

2. This is absolutely not a case of modern-day people inappropriately applying modern-day standards on a historical figure. Columbus was judged by the people of his own day--his associates--to be inhumanly cruel to the native population. He was eventually arrested by a royal representative for barbarity and sent back to Spain in chains where the monarchs pardoned him--he had been delivering slaves and some gold, after all--but stripped him of all titles and governing powers, judging him unfit to lead.

3. Aside from those two points, the majority of your post consists of the excuses I often hear from those unable or unwilling to re-evaluate a historical icon, namely: (1) It's possible that we don't know everything, so no one should judge and (2) Bad things still happen today, so no one should judge. As far as #1 goes, we know a great deal about Columbus from his own journals and letters and the writings of his contemporaries. It's in a letter he wrote, for instance, that Columbus remarks that 9- and 10-year-old indigenous girls are commanding the highest prices in the sex-slave trade. Regarding #2, if we don't evaluate past behavior, and praise what is praiseworthy and condemn what is execrable, how can we hope to improve?

[NonMetro]

54. Instead of starting out by accusing me of making excuses, why not just

Start out by addressing the points? You presented a formidable rebuttal, and wound up with an interesting question. Touché!

[Old Crow]

59. Well, thanks.

By way of concluding amicably, it appears you are open to re-evaluating Christopher Columbus, something many people are unable or unwilling to do. So kudos for that.

[JackRiddler]

58. I wonder what judgement the people he killed would pass on him?

IN the meantime, there are people in this world today still bombing hospitals and spending their national surpluses on war, and selling the arms with which war is fought, and going to war to defend kingdoms that mutilate genitals, among other gruesome and horrible things. What are "we" doing about it? Financing it with our taxes, of course. But this is very much in the spirit of Cristoforo Colon, it is true.

[Drahthaardogs]

60. As I have noted in other threads

Columbus Day in America has always been about celebrating Italian immigrants. It is an important day for a group who suffered under the white elite.

I would have no issue changing the name, but it has always been and should always be a holiday about Italian Americans.

I support a native day, but not changing an Italian holiday to accommodate it.

[JackRiddler]

24. Screw the "founders," but don't defame them.

If you go by the Federalists' convention that wrote the constitution, the majority weren't slave owners. (25 out of 55).

[CreekDog]

45. Wait a minute? You're saying it's okay for the Founders to have owned slaves?

because they were the Founders?

[Throd]

11. Screw that. It's more fun to be self-righteous with the benefit of 500 years of hindsight.

He was the first one to bring the two worlds together. After that, it was empires doing what they do and the people of the Americas got the short end of the deal.

[CreekDog]

46. you're saying it's self righteous to advocate to change the name of a holiday?

but you, you're not self righteous for taking the opposite position.

self righteous is a term to describe people who advocate for things that you disagree with.

[LanternWaste]

47. Though much more fun to act with an intractable dogma

"It's more fun to be self-righteous with the benefit of 500 years of hindsight...."

Though much more fun to act with an intractable dogma despite new-found and relevant knowledge.

[YOHABLO]

19. And like everyone on here, you are entitled to your opinion, no matter how ignorant.

[Psephos]

30. Why put the phrase "no matter how ignorant" in your reply?

It reveals that your premise is only a ruse to deliver an insult. It does not advance conversation or sway the person you targeted.

Humans can be so ugly to each other.

[harun]

62. OP is extremely ignorant of the facts, that's why.

[JackRiddler]

26. That's an argument for "Encounter Day"

but not for Colon (his actual name, as he identified himself).

And prior to that day educated Europeans (and Asians) knew the world was a sphere of about 24,000 miles diameter. Colon's contribution was to con the Spanish monarchs on the false idea that it was much smaller, so that he would be able to reach China from the Azores. Lucky for him there were continents he didn't know about in between Europe and Asia - inhabited ones, that he ran into. Otherwise his crews would have mutinied, since their supplies were running out and they wanted to turn back. He began the process of nearly depopulating these continents through disease, forced labor, massacres, plunder and displacement. Not that the disease was his fault. These are just the facts, sorry.

[NonMetro]

42. Columbus knew the world was round, too, and so did those who sailed with him

And so did the Greeks 2,500 years ago. As to the size of it, as I recall, Aristotle fairly accurately calculated the circumference, and he even calculated the position of the international date line. This whole business about the sailors fearing they were going to fall off the end of the earth because it was flat was a myth invented later on. But Columbus did not know the circumference, and that's why he thought he was off the coast of India.

Then, let us from our 21st century vantage point, with hundreds of years of historical research and scholarship at our fingertips, pass judgment on this 15th century mariner. Let us apply our own standards retroactively. Let us recount every awful thing we now know and then pretend that the "discovery" in 1492 meant nothing at all, that it wasn't the starting point for the rise of some of the greatest civilizations the world has ever known. is that what we should tell our kids?

[JackRiddler]

55. You have already passed judgement.

First of all, your argument that the day was important is a red herring. We all agree it was very important. It should be taught, studied and commemorated. Some of us think it should not be commemorated in the name of the failed conquistador Colon, however.

Merely in the fact that you primarily wish to identify the would-be conquistador as a mariner means you have already delivered a judgment, one in his favor. I suppose we can also call Alexander and Genghis horsemen. You seem to be attached, not to a credible history, but to the modern-day, nationalist narrative (of Spain and a number of N. and S. American countries) that exonerates a mass murderer.

It is certain that people of his time did condemn him - the only problem is you're not willing to hear their voices, since they are the ones who didn't matter to him, the indigenous peoples he "discovered." He understood what he was doing at the time very bloody well, demanding that his missions deliver more forced labor, slaves, and gold. It was the moral standard of the Spanish empire to which this Italian voluntarily chose to attach himself. Not everyone at the time would have acted as he did. (It's interesting seeing on behalf of which arguments people choose to invoke the objection of anachronism.)

It was Eratosthenes, a mathematician in Ptolemaic Egypt, who first estimated the earth's circumference. No one is judging Colon by the standards of today to point out that more than 1600 years later, he was wrong about the circumference. This is why people at the time thought he was crazy, because he was trying to sell the Spanish crown on the idea that the earth was much smaller than thought by the consensus of those who had an opinion. Quite possibly because he was a con man, since the crown would not have spent on the mission if he had not persuaded them of his smaller earth theory. He got lucky.

So yes, commemorate. October 12 should be an Indigenous Peoples Day, and for their part I can only wish Italian-Americans would choose to celebrate a holiday commemorating Galileo - someone who was far more important in constituting the modern-day civilization than Colon. Someone furthermore who displayed moral courage, not just a desire to make himself famous, rich and powerful.

[YOHABLO]

16. Columbus and his men were murdering sadist. Change the name to Howard Zinn day >

make every history teacher and their students read his book A People's History of the United States!

I like that: Zinn Day!

[valerief]

22. Change the name but don't take away the damn holiday. nt

[prairierose]

28. In South Dakota, this day became Native American Day...

in 1989. We still have a holiday but it has a different emphasis.

[world wide wally]

32. I always thought that "Discovery Day" would be a good one

[clamshells]

36. I'm getting tired of this nonsense

With all this bad Jackson bad Jefferson bad whoever I was expecting them to get around to taking George Washington off the $1 bill, but thankfully that stupidity seems to have petered out.

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming, ignoring the people who are such idiots you'd need several dozen of them to add up to Jefferson's abilities.

[BumRushDaShow]

41. "you'd need several dozen of them to add up to Jefferson's abilities"

and sexual prowess.



http://www.encyclopediavirginia.org/Hemings_Sally_1773-1835



http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jefferson/

[mhatrw]

48. It should be renamed "Colonial Genocide Day."

Last edited Wed Oct 14, 2015, 12:21 AM - Edit history (1)

We should celebrate with 98% off sales on anything indigenous.

[itcfish]

49. Say Whatever You Want

But we would not be the country we are without Columbus and those who followed him. Yes many died because of him, but let's not blame the genocide of the North American Natives on Columbus. From Mexico to the south, has a great thriving indiginous population. You don't want to celebrate Columbus fine, it's understandable, be he is not the only villain in this story and by no means the worse of the lot.

[JackRiddler]

56. What country are "we"?

Why do you feel this country that is "us" must identify with "not the only villain in this story"? Because he was "by no means the worst of the lot"? Is that our standard?

AMERICA - BY NO MEANS THE WORST OF THE LOT!

[Comrade Grumpy]

50. Beats having to deal with real world issues. n/t

[brooklynite]

51. I would say "gaining momentum" is a stretch...

[JackRiddler]

57. Several cities have already declared it.

That's light-years ahead of just a few years ago, when it would have been completely unthinkable.