Pope condemns xenophobia against gypsies but says they must obey laws

[uawchild]

Last edited Mon Oct 26, 2015, 04:50 PM - Edit history (1)

Source: Reuters

Pope Francis condemned xenophobia and discrimination against Europe's gypsies on Monday but said they also must do their part by respecting the law and sending their children to school.

The pope made his comments at an audience for several thousand Roma, Sinti and other itinerant peoples that was marked by colorful flamenco-style dancing and traditional music of violins and Spanish guitar.

The pope, who has visited several camps of nomads on Rome's outskirts since his election in 2013, condemned the precarious conditions in which many of them live. "We no longer want to see family tragedies where children die of cold or in fires," he said.

In defending their right to keep their culture he said: "The time has come to uproot centuries-old prejudices, preconceptions and reciprocal diffidence that often are at the base of discrimination, racism and xenophobia." But he also said Christian gypsies had to do their part, "avoiding everything that is not worthy of this name: falsehood, fraud, swindles, fighting". He also mentioned drug trafficking, human trafficking and the abuse of gypsy children, many of whom beg on the streets of Europe's big cities.

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/26/us-pope-gypsies-idUSKCN0SK1H420151026

[jtuck004]

1. ""avoiding everything that is not worthy of this name: falsehood, fraud, swindles, fightin" < Tell

you what, pope old boy.

How about you get the Catholics to give all that stuff up first, kinda as a lesson in leadership, instead of telling people to sacrifice like your minions are not prepared to.

You seem a decent fella, but even you don't recognize your own hypocrisy.

[pnwmom]

5. He IS speaking to Catholics, at least in Italy.

http://www.livescience.com/44512-gypsy-culture.html

The Roma do not have an official faith and n the past, they typically disdained organized religion. Today, they often adopt the predominant religion of the country where they are living, according to FRUA, and describe themselves as "many stars scattered in the sight of God."

[Geronimoe]

2. "The time has come to uproot centuries-old prejudices, preconceptions......

and reciprocal diffidence that often are at the base of discrimination, racism and xenophobia."

The Church and its followers need to follow the Pope's advice.

[KamaAina]

3. Dear Reuters: They're called "Romani".

"Gypsies" is a slur. Would they call Italians "wops"?

[Igel]

8. It's a can of worms.

Some Sinti don't want to be called Roma. Romani are Roma. For them it's a bad exonym, rather like calling all Central Americans "Mexicans," a no-no.

Canada has the same problem. There are Inuit and Yup'ik. The official term for both, at least a while back, was Inuit. Meaning you have Yup'ik Inuit and Inuit Inuit.

Libya's Gaddhafi had the same gaffe: There were Arab Arabs and Arab Berbers. The Berber community hissed long and loud over that one.

If you reject exonyms, often there's no useful cover term. Then you're stuck--do you go with a traditional cover term or be PC-offensive?

I avoid Roma and Romani and above all "Gypsy" (which is one of those terms that's a slur because it was used by some to denigrate, therefore it must have been used by all only to denigrate), but have no solution.

I also have no way of referring to Yup'ik and Inuit with a useful cover term ("First Peoples" includes so much more, and "Arctic First Peoples" is confusing). It's also confusing because in some places, at least, the Inuit weren't the first people in parts of Greenland--the Danish were there earlier. But nobody wants to call Danes "First People." I still prefer Eskimo (or Esquimaux if I want to be confusing) for the US groups because the Canadian terminology is, put bluntly, offensive.

Don't want to get started with the vexed way of referring to different groups in the cis-Sahara region. Not even sure the Anglosphere had a way of referring to them.

[uawchild]

9. great post n/t

[JustAnotherGen]

28. It wouldn't apply in Italy

That slur - towards Italians. Only if they emigrate outside the laws of another country.

Regardless - the Pope's message to the Italian people to give up teir prejudice towards Romani/Travelers is a good one. He's asking the Romani in Italy to meet them half way. The social safety for children in Italy is insane . . . in a good way.

After watching soe disturbing video from S.C. High school - we would live there before here if something regarding family happens soon. I'd rather my child go to school with Romani children in Italy than be subject to police brutality in their classroom because they are black in America.

I say integrate th Romani children now. I would gladly pay an increase in our taxes there to make sure these kids have a shot at a decent life.

[uhnope]

10. no it's not

[KamaAina]

11. O rly?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people

The Romani are widely known among English-speaking people by the exonym "Gypsies" (or "Gipsies&quot . However, according to many Romani people and academics who study them, the word has been tainted by its use as a racial slur and a pejorative connoting illegality and irregularity.

[uhnope]

13. wiki lol. "According to many" does not equal "most" BTW

[Live and Learn]

27. Wow, how insensitive can one be?

It has been quite well known for many years that 'Gypsies' is considered a derogatory term. You do not get to decide what is considered derogatory for a particular group.

[uhnope]

36. sorry--you're just plain wrong

Check this--Roma rights groups use the term all the time https://www.google.com/search?q=antigypsyism&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

[RobinA]

47. Are We Allowed

to use "gypsy" as a non-proper noun? As in, "I consider myself a bit of a gypsy when it comes to my career path for the last 35 years." Serious question, because at 57 years old I've been through so many name changes going in and out of favor it's getting hard to keep up with the nuances. I use "gypsy" as above and I rather prefer the description as I think it captures how I feel about my journey, but I can avoid saying it out loud if I need to and the situation arises.

[pipoman]

4. They disregard laws, lie, cheat, and steal in the US too.

[meow2u3]

12. You must be referring to either billionaires

or white fascists who call themselves conservative.

[uhnope]

14. who?

[pipoman]

15. Roma Gypsies

[uhnope]

16. you have a problem with Roma Gypsies in general?

[pipoman]

17. I have had on a few occasions, yes

[uhnope]

19. in general

[pipoman]

20. I have never met a Roma Gypsy family....and I've met a few....

Who didn't lie, cheat, and steal for a living...if there are any who don't lie, cheat, and steal to earn a living....well, then they are not liars, cheaters, or thieves....

[uhnope]

21. please, you don't mean to be a bigot, right?

Substitute "black" or "jew" into your hedging and you sound like David Duke

[progree]

39. Ditto. And dittos to your #32 and #35

[uhnope]

41. thx. you might want to

do an alert on post #23. please.

Imagine if someone wrote this:

"I had my wallet stolen by some blacks in Chicago... Never have anything to do with them since. If that makes me a bigot, so be it."

The racism would be crystal clear. But this person gets to write the same thing about Roma?
from post #23

I had my wallet stolen by a group of gypsies in Spain. Never have anything to do with them since. If that makes me a bigot, so be it.

[progree]

43. #23 was already alerted on (not by me). See #42 for results.

I was Juror #5. It's how I came across this mind-blowing jaw-dropping thread. [font color = red] edited to add the rest of this paragraph and the next:[/font]. Not that I wouldn't have alerted on it. I would have.

There are unfortunately still plenty of hide-worthy posts left in this thread, but I guess I'll just let the jury results in #42 speak for all the other similar posts rather than hoping for a better jury on this issue.

How about,

[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#CEF6FE;"]"I had my wallet stolen by some woman in Minneapolis. Never have anything to do with them since. If that makes me a bigot, so be it."

[demosincebirth]

23. I agree with you. I had my wallet stolen by a group of gypsies in Spain. I lost credit cards and

250 bucks. Never have anything to do with them since. If that makes me a bigot, so be it.

[uhnope]

32. This does make you a bigot. Self delete this rank racism pls

It's really stupid of you. It's like if you got something stolen by any other race or nationality and decided all of them were the same. Racism 101

[demosincebirth]

33. Oh, those self righteous persons who think they know all about life and the "cultures" of other

people who are willing to resort to name calling when they know nothing about the subject matter. Their only retort is what they know best...name calling. Tsk, Tsk, Tsk.

[uhnope]

35. yeah I do know way more than you on this one

Both my rationality and my experience make me know you are wrong and clueless, and yet you are proud of your bigotry. It's disgusting, really. Imagine what you would think if anyone said that about black people, Jews, etc. You'd (hopefully) think they were a bigoted idiot. If that doesn't get thru yr head--how about whatever race/ethnicity you belong to---imagine someone saying this about you because of your race/ethnicity/religion. Get it?

[demosincebirth]

38. Sensible discussion would be impossible with you. It would be like discussing politics with

one of the crazies on the far right. You know nothing about Romas.

[uhnope]

40. lol. You had yr wallet stolen so you think you know something about the Roma.

Please tell us more about what you know about Roma. Please.

[progree]

42. Jury results on #23

23. I agree with you. I had my wallet stolen by a group of gypsies in Spain. I lost credit cards and
250 bucks. Never have anything to do with them since. If that makes me a bigot, so be it.

[hr]
On Tue Oct 27, 2015, 04:21 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

I agree with you. I had my wallet stolen by a group of gypsies in Spain. I lost credit cards and
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=1243758

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

yet more rank racist anti-gypsyism. This person was given a chance to moderate the bigotry and instead doubled-down on it. Substitute Jews, Blacks or Mexicans, for example, into this sentence. Disgusting. It seems like Roma/Gypsies are the last group that even some progressives feel free to be openly racist about.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Oct 27, 2015, 04:33 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Let's just ban all personal feelings and negative personal feelings from DU.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: What if I posted, "I had my wallet stolen by a bunch of blacks in Chicago. NEVER HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THEM SINCE."
So that explains my vote. HIDE

Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

[leftyladyfrommo]

6. It's a real problem in Europe and here,too.

The Rom are a lot like the Old Order Amish and ultra orthodox Jews in some ways. They have their own culture that goes back probably 1500 years. Originally they migrated out of India where they were an untouchable class that were mainly musicians and entertainers.

Now they have their own culture, their own legal system, their own language. They view outsiders as polluted so they stay to themselves and don't mix well with other groups. Because they view outsiders as contaminated they don't see anything wrong with using them to make a living. Some families do that illegally. Many times the women are fortune tellers or tarot readers. Or they run other scams. Many can't read or write.

But it isn't true that all of the families engage in illegal things. They have been known for their excellent metal work and their wonderful ability with horses. Some families are entertainers and work in circuses or carnivals. Or they are musicians.

They have many faces. And it's a very complicated problem. It was made a lot worse in Europe when laws were passed that didn't allow the Roma, also called Travelers, to travel any more. When that happened they lost their ability to support themselves and they were pretty much forced to prey on the outsiders around them to make a living. And that has caused a lot of hard feelings against them.

[uhnope]

18. here?

[leftyladyfrommo]

24. Not like in Europe.

Last edited Tue Oct 27, 2015, 11:06 AM - Edit history (2)

But the Rom are here in pretty large numbers (it's estimated that there are 1 million Roma in the Us) and they like it here because they get left alone and are not persecuted. But they run tarot and fortune telling shops.

The shops are set up so they are far enough apart so they don't take each other's business. A lot of people lose a lot of money in those places. And they get busted every so often.

Their fortune tellers are really good. The girls start learning the business from a young age. It's all a very sophisticated business.

They do other stuff like run carnivals and entertainment types of jobs. Whatever works to make money. Some of the Rom families are really wealthy and others struggle to just get by.

And they are infamous for running scams of all kinds. And that gets them into trouble. But if you understand their culture it all makes sense. They just refuse to assimilate because they see all outsiders as polluted and contaminated. They don't want their children to go to schools full of contaminated outsiders.

I've spent a lot of time studying these people because they are just so interesting.

[independentpiney]

30. I used Romani truckers on one of my job sites

They were from 3 separate paving/sealing companies run by related families, who all lived in the same mobile home park. Two of the three companies had christian related names and biblical sayings on the backs of their trucks. From what I understand quite a few Romani in the U.S. are in the paving/ sealing business because of the ease of scamming homeowners and small businesses. My dealings with them was similar to other independent truckers, other than all of them being reliable and another thing that stood out and that not having studied their culture, I don't know whether it was cultural or just unique to their extended family. And that's that the wives seemed to be very much in charge. The trucks were insured in their names dba as the company's, and they did all of the scheduling and other things that I normally dealt with the husband on with family operated businesses. I was really curious about it at the time but didn't feel asking would be appropriate.

[leftyladyfrommo]

31. That's interesting.

They are really interesting people. But you really have to understand their culture or they don't make sense.

They run a whole bunch of different scams. I was just reading about all the different scams they run in Paris. They are very clever. Some of the scams I have read about were pretty terrible. One that I read about was young women who preyed on old men who had money and it was really awful what they did to get ahold of the money. I don't get the feeling that they all operate like that at all.


It's not all illegal stuff but they do seem to dance around the law quite a bit. And that causes problems for them. No one likes to be scammed.

[Nihil]

45. Don't know about the "here" you mention but yes, it *is* a real problem in Europe ...

... and yet another one that the self-proclaimed "progressives" like to
display their ignorance about (usually from several thousand miles away).

As you say, they have many faces and it is a very complicated problem.

There is no black or white in this, just hundreds of shades of grey and
*that* is what irritates me when some jerk gets on a pseudo-high horse
and pretends that people with different opinions are 100% wrong whilst
his (or her) own personal view is 100% right.

Sigh.

[closeupready]

7. Ironic that the leader of an organization whose officials committed crimes against children

of a sexual nature for hundreds of years, and probably since its founding, lectures a persecuted, poor and powerless minority about obeying the law.

[Cassiopeia]

26. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones..... nt

[Nihil]

29. Yeah, good luck with getting *that* to happen ...

> ... but says they must obey laws

> ... must do their part by respecting the law and sending their children to school

> ... "avoiding everything that is not worthy of this name: falsehood, fraud, swindles, fighting"



Looks like the "xenophobia" will be here to stay then as there isn't a cat's chance in his Hell
that the other side of the "bargain" will happen.

[uhnope]

37. um...WTF? Sounds like a totally racist post by you

[Nihil]

44. um... WTF? Sounds like you know exactly how a racist posts ... what a surprise ...

What's up? Did you get bored trolling the Russia threads or something?

Looks like you've been pretty busy with the alert button in response to your
black & white view of the world around here too.

If in doubt, post "innocuous" questions and hit that alert button ...
anything to avoid the facts of the discussion when you don't like them.

[uhnope]

50. so please hit me with the "facts of the discussion" that I avoid. go for it

amaze me with the truth I can't handle about gypsies.

[closeupready]

51. Delete "Sounds like" and you're 100% correct.

[leftyladyfrommo]

46. If the Pope can help more power to him.

The Rom don't let outsiders in and they don't mix with outsiders so change comes hard.

But some of them really are living in awful circumstances and really need help.

They can't really work regular jobs because they are uneducated and most can't read or write. So they run their age old scams in order to survive. It's the 9nly way they know.

Difficult problem to solve. If the kids could at least go to school things might begin to change. And maybe the Pope can help with that.

[RobinA]

49. Thank You

for bringing some actual information to what started out to be yet another bash-the-perceived-racist DU thread. Denying that Roma running scams is part of their culture stops any further understanding of what is actually going on with them, because it willfully ignores something central. You can't even begin to understand a culture with blinders on.