Cologne attacks: Merkel proposes tougher migrant laws
Source: BBC World News
German Chancellor Angela Merkel has proposed changes to make it easier to deport asylum-seekers who commit crimes, after the New Year's Eve sex attacks on women in Cologne.
The attacks, which victims say were carried out by men of North African and Arab appearance, have called into question her open-door migrant policy. The police's handling of the events has also been sharply criticised.
Mrs Merkel, speaking after a meeting of her Christian Democrat party leadership in Mainz, proposed tightening the law on denying the right of asylum for those who have committed crimes.
Under the new plans, those on probation could be deported too.
Read more: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35271171
Way too little and way too late. Her open door policy is not only stupid but endangers Germans which should be her first priority.
The US has a much better approach of vetting and limiting asylum seekers.
For Merkel to open the doors wide for over a million people in such a small country is not in any way in the best interests of her nations people.
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EL34x4
(2,003 posts)Many of these refugees came over on falsified Syrian passports and will be less than forthcoming about where they are really from. Germany won't deport them if they don't know where to deport them to.
Elmergantry
(884 posts)You DONT let them come in to start with!! 
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)No young single men! How effing hard can that be? It's like she was begging for trouble from the start. If the situation was that bad, these men should have brought their families with them and if it wasn't bad enough for them to leave them behind then they should have stayed behind as well. How effing stupid can Merkel be? Is she really trying to destroy her own country?
lancer78
(1,495 posts)Germany has such a guilty conscience over the holocaust, that there is no way that merkel could have turned any refugee away.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)This is going to be her legacy and it will not be a good one.
christx30
(6,241 posts)in Damascus. If they lied about where they are from, whatever happens to them is their fault, but not Germany's problem.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)christx30
(6,241 posts)"How does Syria deal with illegal immigrants or unauthorized people in their country?" I don't know. Good question. Get me some popcorn and we can find out.
trillion
(1,859 posts)And why are you suggesting the entire lot of immigrants get shipped to Syria for what a few have done and a few that you don't even know the races of?
Do you even know that the immigrants are coming from 5 countries?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)trillion
(1,859 posts)to deport them if they are rapists.
The thing is, as the article state we don't know if they are immigrants.
Elmergantry
(884 posts)Trump has a point when he says the biggest govt problem is stupidty.
And anyone who dared voiced your points was labeled xenephoberacistbigotislmaphobe.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)The biggest problem with the human race is stupidity. The statement you made, "the biggest government problem is stupidity" is a handy Republican talking often used to use that stupidity of the human race to limit government.
Did you really fall for that?
Elmergantry
(884 posts)
pampango
(24,692 posts)Yes, we know that Donald does not like "political correctness" either. He is quite proud to be labeled a "xenephoberacistbigotislmaphobe" by 'politically correct' liberals.
Elmergantry
(884 posts)I said he has a point when comes to stupid politicians.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)I am getting pretty tired with the left's blind spot.
pampango
(24,692 posts)We may soon need a 'Liberals for Donald Trump group' here at DU.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)The ridiculous left wing bullshit has definitely pushed me to the right.
pampango
(24,692 posts)smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)but it is just getting too ridiculous. Common sense has completely flown out the window here.
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)Now she's not so much. Kinda weird.
trillion
(1,859 posts)Squinch
(50,949 posts)Which is a lot of double negatives to say, you're OK in my book!
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)
psychopomp
(4,668 posts)The echo chamber got smaller and tighter over the years, to the point where if you question any of the sacred cows you are vigorously attacked, defamed and drowned out.
DU is hardly relevant in 2016's Internet compared to when DU was just getting started; I just come in from time to time to check its pulse.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)be a bit more balanced. Of course you have your trolls, which is a pain, but I think if you spend all your time on DU you can get a very skewed view of what others in the world are thinking of things.
Joe Chi Minh
(15,229 posts)continue its blog, they would have to accommodate the neoliberal malefactors in some degree, but the extent to which they must indulge the Neoliberal trolls has got worse, as the country has sunk into a virtual police-state. They are now the first on any thread criticizing America's Frankenstein persona on the world stage, and they come on mob-handed.
I've probably spent more time on here lately inveighing against the racism of the police and judicial authorities against African Americans than any other topic, but I would have zero tolerance of rape, whether the perp was black, white or brindle. (I've got a touch of the 'tar brush' myself, so I fall under the latter category). So that piffle about racism and Islamophobia won't wash with me. I'm not an admirer of Islam, though I have to concede that I admire the manifest piety of our Moslem shop-keepers and the like.
I don't believe multiculturalism works, but rather, as the two sides grow closer numerically (not necessarily greatly, though high population-concentrations of the incomers makes trouble), race relations tend to deteriorate. It's not all one-sided, but I can't criticize Moslems for trying to keep their end up, even though I had one loosen the bonnet of my car. It's just human nature.
What I find incomprehensible and unforgivable is not so much cultural racism as racism against coloured folk who share our basic, or at least, vestigial, Christian culture. In other words in our country, the people of West Indian stock from the sixties, and, notably, the African Americans in the US - though some have become Muslims.
Had the national fabric not become so 'de facto' atheistic, there are propitious measures I believe could be taken, to foster eventual assimilation. One would be to mandate the teaching of at least two lessons a week be devoted to Christianity in Moslem and other schools of a foreign, religious nature, not to proselytize, but to teach about the history of the West and its now besieged, Christian culture. I might even proscribe the building of mosques, unless the architecture fitted in with our Western, Christian perception of church architecture. But now we must wait for 'the new heaven and the new earth', which may not be too far away.
Back more specifically on topic, if I were Angie Baby, I would deport the marauding louts, rapists, thieves, et al, penniless. Truth to tell, to me, rape is a capital offence, pace il Papa Francisco. But that seems an unrealistic position today.
In another connection, that Veterans today have some flaky-seeming articles is a boon. Without them the many real gems it provides might mean that ways would be found to close it down. They provide cover, imo. Also, Sputnik.com and New Eastern Outlook are top reads.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)strong social conservative, Smirky. That's not a little shift. It'd be more like squeezing an apple and having it turn into an orange.
Since our personalities and positions are often a complex mixture of genetic hard-wiring of personality and then life experiences/nurture, with positions on various points of the political spectrum, many people often only understand their true political natures when events help identify their feelings with one group or another, such as in this case the many who agree strongly that, "Trump has a point."
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)when I first came here. Maybe some of that is age - I have been here a while - but some of it is the stubbornness of liberals to be reasonable in discussing some of their pet issues. Conservatives are no better, I know that too.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)those you're agreeing with from here. A dose of a forum favored by Trump followers saying nations have to turn away immigrants because they're rapists, criminals, and disease carriers, grabbed and run with by others who excitedly amp it up to calling to the immigrants themselves diseases, cockroaches and other mob-hype villifications, might have you feeling almost liberal again - in comparison.
katsy
(4,246 posts)Or sexually assaulted under the bus for WHAT?
Because it's PC to bow to the koran? The koran that is interpreted to allow stonings and beheadings of gays/women/apostates?
I'm to the left of Ghandi, an atheist, a feminist and parent of a gay child... Fuck the koran, fuck islam and it's RIGHT WING regressive, archaic laws of allah.
I hate that RW culture almost as much as the gop. Doesn't make me any kind of phobe.
Yeah I don't think women need make ANY accommodation for Islamic sensibilities.
Smirkymonkey is correct. And supporting islam is not a left wing position. It's a slap on the face to women, atheists and gays for a start.
Well said.
I think alerters will zero in on your "fuck the Koran, fuck Islam" bit but honestly, there's nothing wrong with your post. Well said.
FarrenH
(768 posts)From Merkel or any other quarter. The OP is about harsher laws to make deportation easier which is probably the best solution
trillion
(1,859 posts)groppers even read the Koran because from the article they don't know who they are or if they are immigrants.
How nice of you to cast all of Islam into being what, ISIS? Beheadings, stonings? Sounds like the bible but that also has dismembering your daughter if she sleeps outside of marriage and sending her limbs to each corner of the country. Do you also believe Christians are still doing that? Why would you believe the whole religion of islam is?
If you hate RW culture why are you subscribing to their blanket statements and hate speech?
What do you hate about their culture if that isn't part of it?
katsy
(4,246 posts)in any western culture. We deal with criminal elements who murder rape and torture by secular laws.
How can it not be a culture clash when one segment of society adheres to archaic theocratic laws and the western nations with secular laws that protect diversity? You suggest reeducation camps for Muslims so they can fit into our culture or should women cover up and gays go back in the closet?
It is complex. The Cologne attacks killed the welcome culture. Merkel, bless her heart, is a good woman with the best intentions. She cannot see that borders protect German women from intolerant Muslim men.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)stone space
(6,498 posts)AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your alert
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On Sat Jan 9, 2016, 01:07 PM you sent an alert on the following post:
the stupidity is amazing isn't it
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=1308469
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This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
YOUR COMMENTS
Trump has no point.
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A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Sat Jan 9, 2016, 01:25 PM, and voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT ALONE.
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trillion
(1,859 posts)On Sun Jan 10, 2016, 09:50 AM you sent an alert on the following post:
+1000
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=1309107
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
YOUR COMMENTS
The article clearly states that they do not know if the perps are muslim or immigrants - just that they are black and brown. This person is attacking a whole religion and doesn't even know who did this crime. The black immigrants are mostly coming from Africa btw and 12% of the Syrian immigrants are Christians. There are imigrants coming from 4 countries so this persons racism is offensive. For all we know the perps are French or German citizens. Please see the article and you will see this person is jumping to conclusions the police can't even make.
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A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Sun Jan 10, 2016, 10:09 AM, and voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT ALONE.
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Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Such bigotry is unacceptable.
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Explanation: Engage the poster. He or she may have jumped to a conclusion, but I don't see anything in the post worthy of a hide.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: This poster, in the thread, has been painting with too broad a brush. The claim they're agreeing to - that 'raping an infidel is OK in Islam' - is clearly a lie (there may be psychopaths in ISIS who claim it, but we all know it's not a general feature of the religion as a whole), and no-one is being an apologist for it either. So I think they are trying to stir up religious hatred with their overall behavior in the thread.
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Thank you.
840high
(17,196 posts)I go read European press - this is exactly the feeling in Europe.
trillion
(1,859 posts)article clearly says they don't know who the attackers are - just brown and black people.
There are people coming there from 5 countries, not just Syria. And why blame everyone for something a few do?
The massive racism on this thread is making me re-think being here. I mean, I expect this from a trump rally.
Note the article says most of the black immigrants are from North African countries. I point out that they don't even know if these are immigrants who did it.
6chars
(3,967 posts)They seem to be mostly recently arrived young Muslim men.
trillion
(1,859 posts)Because so far it looks like it's going to xenophobia that you are pointing at?
Are you going to accuse these rapist in the article of being immigrants when the article states all they know is they are black and brown people? Are you going to suggest deporting ALL immigrants for the actions of a few?
If you are then I would call that xenophobia.
The German government should be responsible enough to know that taking in 1 million people will being in some bad apples. And they should be adult enough to handle that.
bdwker
(435 posts)trying to reverse a wrong with idiocy doesn't always work.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts) pampango
(24,692 posts)but toughen them as needed. Do not cater to right wing groups like Pegida and try to out-conservative the the far-right.
Do keep putting pressure on the rest of Europe, particularly on the RW governments that have refused, to take their share while liberal Scandinavian countries have taken more than their share. That was Germany's expectation, not that the burden would fall on them long term.
Police expect about 1,000 Pegida supporters and the local far-right group Pro NRW, as well as counter-demonstrators from the group “Cologne against Right-wingers”, local media said.
Shabani, the witness spoken to by the Guardian, said she had viewed the events from the cathedral steps, having gone to the city centre to experience her first German new year, eight months after arriving as a political asylum seeker from Iran. She said she had been astounded by the police’s nonchalance. “They seemed to just let it happen,” she said. “I watched as men fired large firecrackers horizontally into the crowd and they police just stood at the side of the square with their hands on their hips”.
Of the 31 people identified, nine were Algerian, eight Moroccan, five Iranian, four Syrian and two German, plus an Iraqi, a Serb and a US citizen.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/08/cologne-violence-suspects-include-asylum-seekers
Interesting that there are only 4 Syrians and 1 Iraqi were among the 31. One wonders how the rest of the 18 'asylum seekers' hope to be successful if most are from Algeria and Morocco.
christx30
(6,241 posts)harden the position of the rest of Europe.
"After what happened to you, are you kidding me!?"
All the pressure in the world isn't going to get them to budge at this point. Those countries want to protect their citizens. I wouldn't expect anything less.
pampango
(24,692 posts)Those governments have acted like Trump says he will act.
christx30
(6,241 posts)mobs of people sexually assaulting women during festivals. There's no way they are going to risk their people like Merkel's "Come on in!" has.
Germany wouldn't be so much pressuring them, as begging them to ignore reality.
pampango
(24,692 posts)not so much. 
I doubt Germany will 'beg' a RW government like Hungary's to do anything. Thankfully, they did not have to 'beg' a progressive country like Sweden to take its share of refugees and then some. That is the difference between progressive and conservative governments when it comes to this and many other issues.
Perhaps Germany expected that Hungary meant to follow EU rules when it joined the organization. Too late they realize they realize that RW'ers believe that "rules are for chumps". "We'll take the benefits of being members of the EU but don't come to us about sharing in the responsibility of a multi-national organization.
christx30
(6,241 posts)beholden to the voters that put them into office. If the voters don't want it to happen, it shouldn't happen.
And as far as Sweden, well, it looks like that's working out just well for them.
Just Google Sweden rape crisis
Ace Rothstein
(3,161 posts)It seems like a beautiful country. Everyone I know who has been to Budapest has loved it.
JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,339 posts)But, I'm not a young male mid-east broke hungry undocumented Islamic immigrant of military age.
I'm sure I'd be more welcomed, especially by those involved in catering to tourists.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)I really would like to go back again someday.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)
FLPanhandle
(7,107 posts)You start with the safest and toughest rules in order to protect your own citizens, then you loosen them if all is going well.
Merkel's entire approach was backwards. Obama's approach is correct. Start small with tight controls and vetting, then look to increase the numbers if all goes well.
pampango
(24,692 posts)Sweden is "guilty" of acting from the heart with respect to accepting refugees and is toughening policies now.
Countries run by the likes of Trump, Orban and other RW, wall-building conservatives act (or don't act) out of fear so they rarely have to toughen rules later on.
FLPanhandle
(7,107 posts)Instead of acting with hearts or fear, it makes sense to act with our brains.
I think the US is following the intelligent approach. Limited numbers of refugees each vetted closely.
pampango
(24,692 posts)Conservatives do seem to look at them as drug dealers and rapists, welfare moochers and job-stealers.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)to bear the brunt of the mistake. Guess what, to the other 50% of the population, it matters. So you can go fuck your faux PC bullshit when you are not going to be the one paying the price for allowing unregulated immigration in this country.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts) EL34x4
(2,003 posts)They were elected in the first place to keep out refugees.
pampango
(24,692 posts)to accepting refugees. The most generous countries have, of course, been the most liberal countries.
mwrguy
(3,245 posts)Any country that won't take their share gets sanctions.
They are breaking EU law.
branford
(4,462 posts)Countries do not have to accept refugees, no less migrants, from any other safe country. The EU has tried to implement mandatory refugee sharing. It has been a political disaster, and is threatening the entire EU project.
Germany created it own mess, and other countries are not eager to emulate Germany's problems. Recently, even very liberal, "pro-refugee" countries like Sweden and Denmark have vastly hardened their attitudes in response to serious problems, limited resources, and most importantly, the demands of the democratic voters.
Just because you believe refugee sharing is right, doesn't make it the law of the EU. If anything, EU law and policy is trending against migrants because of increasing problems.
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)And about 75% of the migrants are men.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)However it seems like this became a free for all for economic migrants from all over the muslim world and it is hurting the plight of the actual refugees. It's really tragic.
6chars
(3,967 posts)was it just a matter of cultural confusion that can be addressed by education of native Europeans and immigrants?
was it a large gathering of people who spontaneously decided to misbehave that can be addressed by increased policing?
i have a fear it was something worse, and i will state this at the risk of great condemnation on DU. The attacks in Cologne utilized fairly sophisticated tactics - a large number of willing participants converging on one place (a central train station/town square - in this case a symbolic one), at that place breaking into gangs of about 30 who would then isolate and encircle victims before assaulting them. Focused attacks on law enforcement to get them to back off while the assaults continued. Things like firecrackers thrown at people in the crowd in order to cause chaos, and knives brought for more force where necessary. Simultaneous with the attack in Cologne were smaller attacks using similar tactics at central train stations in a number of other European cities. It strains credulity to think it is just coincidence that just because it was New Year's eve, people who had not done this before would all decide to do the same thing in the same way in distributed locations. it seems coordinated in a way that facebook type apps can facilitate, in terms of when and where and a general what, with some more focused suggestions on technique disseminated through videos or online magazines or word of about the how. who would do such a thing? ISIS has bragged that they were going to infiltrate the migrant population with many thousands of their own (out of the hundreds of thousands or millions total). so my fear is that the miscreants who participated in these attacks were ISIS members carrying out a decentralized strategy in conjunction with ISIS sympathizers they recruit from the immigrant population. I would be very interested to see what the connections of those participating in the attacks are, and in particular to look at their social media activity. if this conspiracy theory is correct, the response would have be something a little different than deporting the handful of perpetrators who will ultimately be convicted and sentenced to jail time for these actions. instead, the attacks would have to be viewed as and dealt with as international terrorism.
flame away!!!
Joe Chi Minh
(15,229 posts)article, so don't know who they blamed. I'll see if I can find it.
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2016/01/06/cologne-muslim-assaults-now-cited-as-false-flag/
Though I'm a Christian Zionist and like the Jewish people, generally, I very much respect the respondent Dan's posts, currently near the bottom of the page.
6chars
(3,967 posts)but if you look at why an ISIS would want to do something like this, it could be both to terrorize Europeans in general, and to make them crack down on innocent immigrants in order to radicalize -- they do shit like that in Iraq and Syria all the time.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)That is not a reputable source.
Baitball Blogger
(46,700 posts)just how inappropriate the linked source is.
On Sat Jan 9, 2016, 11:01 AM an alert was sent on the following post:
I think Veterans today identifed it as a false-flag. I didn't read the
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=1308514
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
Veterans Today is an extreme right wing conspiracy theory site (claimed Sandy Hook was a false flag). Pushing their false flag nonsense here should be hidden on-sight.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Jan 9, 2016, 11:21 AM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: I was 50/50 on this one (I don't like hiding a post just because I don't agree with it). However, after I read the "respondent Dan's" post at the link, this garbage should absolutely be hidden.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Sometimes it's good to remind everyone how crazy conspiracy theorists can be. I vote to let this one stand because it's not that bad or insulting.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: It doesn't sound like it's a source that belongs on DU. https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2011/01/06/buyer-beware-veterans-today-and-its-anti-israel-agenda
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
6chars
(3,967 posts)I went there to see what the response to my post was talking about and was pretty surprised. Agree it doesn't seem appropriate for DU. Thanks for sharing this info.
melman
(7,681 posts)there is no shortage here of people that think like 'Dan'. That's why no hide.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)Their stated intention was always to destroy Europe and I am afraid they have finally lit the match.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)condemn them all
Democat
(11,617 posts)In fact, it only punishes those 18 that you mention, and any others who commit crimes.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and deprting them does little good in the long term, what will they do once returned to Syria? Putting them into the criminl justice system in Germany makes a bit more sense IMO
christx30
(6,241 posts)criminal immigrants. Try them, imprison them. When their sentences are complete, send them back to their country of origin. Show everyone that people that want to build a good life for themselves are welcomed. People that want to cause trouble or hurt people will not be tolerated.
B2G
(9,766 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)B2G
(9,766 posts)Because I believe the victims.
Igel
(35,300 posts)Not "condemn" but "be cautious."
If you can't determine who's a potential problem, what do you do? Say, "Well, there might be a few bad apples and let's expose some to unnecessary risks" or do you say, "Well, there might be a few bad apples and we'll punish their peer group by denying them a privilege"?
The problem is compounded by a tendency to take immigration from anywhere we empathize with to anywhere we don't empathize with to be a fundamental human right, and to falsely generation from the subgroup we strongly empathize with to the entire group.
Category errors all over the place, and we call it "thinking."
They're all Syrian refugees. But a lot of those IDed are not from Syria.
We have to not condemn them because we don't want to offend Islam. But by giving citizenship, not only do we not even both noting ethnicity and culture but we slight religious affiliation. So one of those IDed is "American"--but what does that mean? Military? Af-Am? Swedish-American? Jewish American? First gen Libyan-American Muslim? 2nd gen Lebanese-Armenian Orthodox Xian American?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and I never mentioned "offending Islam" but that it got mentioned does IMO opinion denote a mind set here which was my point
pampango
(24,692 posts)http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/08/cologne-violence-suspects-include-asylum-seekers
qwlauren35
(6,147 posts)If there were 200 assaults, and about 10 men per assault, we're not talking about 18 people.
It is very, very sad to realize that most of the perpetrators will not be caught. And some 200 women have been assaulted, just because they wanted to go out and celebrate the New Year.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)but your comment is truly appreciated, more over 10 men per rape
truebrit71
(20,805 posts)....just WTF has happened to this place...
The level of xenophobic ignorance that is stated, and then allowed to stand by ignorant juries, is simply staggering to behold....
coyote
(1,561 posts)Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Fwiw, Germany has a serious labor shortage, and most of the Syrian refugees are skilled very desirable workers, many highly skilled. Merkel's mistake was underestimating the strength of the reaction, by far most of the xenophobic averynxiety and anger from the right of course.
MowCowWhoHow III
(2,103 posts)BERLIN — For Germany’s economy, the influx of up to 1.1 million refugees last year should be a godsend.
With Europe’s lowest birthrate and a rapidly aging population, Germany could lose its standing as one of the world’s leading economies. Refugees could fill the gap.
There’s just one problem: most lack the skills German companies need.
“Let’s not delude ourselves,” said Ludger Wößmann, director of Munich-based Ifo Center for the Economics of Education. “From everything we know so far, it seems that the majority of refugees would first need extensive training and even then it’s far from certain that it would work out.”
Even as Germany’s economy has thrived in recent years, industry has warned of a looming Fachkräftemangel, or skilled worker shortage. Without significant immigration, the working-age population will likely decrease from roughly 49 million in 2013 to somewhere between 34 and 38 million in 2060, according to a government estimate published in July.
http://www.politico.eu/article/refugees-wont-plug-german-labor-gap-asylum-employment-skills-gap/
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)Surely there must be something that they can do.
Dems to Win
(2,161 posts)The world needs to decrease its human population in order to allow us to live on this planet without destroying it. Every society, every country, needs to deal with this issue.
That means we need to figure out how to accommodate a shrinking population without freaking out about 'the economy.'
If I were German, I'd be very unhappy at these actions being taken to 'rescue the economy.' Do humans work for 'the economy'? Or should our economic system work for humans?
FLPanhandle
(7,107 posts)It's amazing to me how some so called progressives are quick to toss the safety of women under the bus in order to look tolerant or help an economy.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)Check out any other message board, even those of traditionally left wing publications, and you will find that most people agree with us and that the DU opinion is of a very small minority.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)did that assumption come from?
Dems to Win
(2,161 posts)"We want our safety back. We are against all violence against women," said protest organiser Martina Schumeckers, 57, a musician.
"I am standing here for all mothers, daughters, granddaughters, grandmothers, for them all to be able to move around safely especially in our Cologne," she told AFP.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)discuss fears generated by some incidents that occurred thousands of miles away. DU can't have many Muslims since they are less than 1% of all Americans, but they should not be subjected to offensive comments here of all places. Donald Trump would applaud and welcome, ConservativeCave is probably nose-deep in this, but the Democratic Party welcomes people of all religions, races and ethnicities. Just not all behaviors.
Dems to Win
(2,161 posts)Hortensis
(58,785 posts)That IS all I can do. You're right about that. Oh, I could try alerting, but I don't do that. I both appreciate freedom of speech and prefer that comments which give additional insight into who we are not be hidden from the community. It's important to know what we are a part of.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts) Mary Mac
(323 posts)I would like to get back to Earth Day ideals of zero population growth.
Dems to Win
(2,161 posts)Yep, I'm an Earth Day idealist, too
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)"I think women in Berlin should be treated the way women in Cairo are treated" said no one ever.
Dems to Win
(2,161 posts)mwrguy
(3,245 posts)Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Last edited Sat Jan 9, 2016, 02:57 PM - Edit history (1)
There are other places where it normally flourishes.
EL34x4
(2,003 posts)Hortensis
(58,785 posts)bothering them today may well reveal problems with Jews or Hispanics who also aren't bothering them tomorrow. I ascribe to the cockroach approach to, if not actually stamping out bias, at least smashing overt bias down whenever it ventures into the open.
Wife of a Jew
christx30
(6,241 posts)aren't the ones that aren't bothering anyone. They are criminals, rapists, and deserve to pay for their crimes, then be sent back to the rubble they came from. Immigrants that want to build community centers, or need help are being well, and will continue to be treated well. It's just the bad guys that Merkel is talking about. And I think it's very fair.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)hundreds of thousands of of them, victims forced from their homes; a few criminals are the excuse to refuse to help them. Fwiw, they're not ALL Muslims, of course. Bombs and chemical weapons don't differentiate between religions.
christx30
(6,241 posts)in a coordinated attack in multiple cities. There were 379 crimes. You think 18 people did it? Each man would have had to assault 21 women to accomplish that.
But, again, Merkel isn't talking about slamming the door. She's talking about sending the bad guys back to where they came from. I don't think that's a bad idea. What would you do?
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)not about branding as potential criminals many tens of thousands of desperate people in need of a place to live. I'm with you NOW, Christx30.
You can see how I was confused: "And the conservative countries aren't going to have mobs of people sexually assaulting women during festivals. There's no way they are going to risk their people like Merkel's "Come on in!" has. Germany wouldn't be so much pressuring them, as begging them to ignore reality. " Specificity is good, won't lead to unfortunate misunderstandings about what is meant by "reality."
christx30
(6,241 posts)I didn't see what happened in Germany happening in countries that haven't invited uncontrolled masses of unvetted immigrants. Am I wrong?
A government is supposed to serve it's people. The protection of a country's people's health and safety is the first responsibility of a leader. Especially countries where the leaders campaigned on that.
Unless you think that the occasional mass sexual assault is just the price we have to pay for helping people in a bad situation. .
And when I said that comment, I was addressing the likelihood of those countries that have been reluctant to take immigrants from changing their position.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)connection between excess compassion for people who have to listen to news of civil unrest on TV from their armchairs and complete callousness toward the desperate plight of hundreds of thousands of innocent refugees?
Yes, this is all going to continue and get even worse because of global warming alone, and of course other factors. Yes, we must find ways to return many to their native lands.
BUT labeling them all as criminals and refusing to help, leaving helpless people to suffer and die with the pathetic excuse that we have to protect ourselves from them is profoundly dishonest, as evil as any "mob" molesting women. It's bigotry in action. It's un-Christian. It's profoundly immoral. It's not about protecting ourselves from criminals. It's about not having to live alongside people who are different.
Someone pointed out the foolishness of liberals who felt we have to do what we can for these people. YES, that is liberalism in action. I am a liberal and proud of it. I would be ashamed if my attitudes caused me to be classified with the "conservative" attitudes being admired here, with those who argue for turning them all away to suffer and die, with the useful excuse that they're tainted with a "criminal" religion and we must protect ourselves from them.
We Democrats are right now in the middle of a great fight to keep people who think like that from taking over this nation and turning on our own "others."
christx30
(6,241 posts)When people take advantage of that help, or aren't appreciative of that assistance, it poisons things for everyone.
Not every country is going to be willing to do anything. Some countries are poor, and don't have the resources to do it. So the burden will fall on Germany. And then crap like New Years happens, and the world sees Merkel giving half measures to dealing with the criminal element of the refugees, and the mayor of Cologne telling us they need women to follow a code of conduct to avoid further assaults.
And it's not fear. It's anger. And a politician that doesn't take that anger seriously is going to find themselves out of a job at the next election. You help if you can, but you take care of your own people first, and foremost.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)christx30
(6,241 posts)Most of the refugees didn't want to stay in any of the safe countries they ended up in. They wanted Germany.
And this is something Germany wanted to do. Let the burden of the problems fall 100% on Germany.
And when you say "they" are you talking about Germany? Or Hungary?
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts) smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts) Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)genuine refugees and nutcases and predators.
Schengen is dying in front of our eyes. And it hasn't even really begun yet.
Just look at this last case of the guy who was shot in Paris when he attacked police with what appeared to be a meat cleaver or slaughtering knife, wearing a fake explosive belt.
It now develops that he was a registered asylum seeker in Germany who spent several months in a Recklingausen refugee shelter. He is now believed by the Paris police to have been Tunisian, but in Germany he variously gave nationalities of Syrian, Morrocan and Georgian. Last September in the Recklinghausen shelter he is reported to have painted the IS insignia on the wall. He came to the attention of the police. In December he vanished and turned up in Paris.
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/kampf-gegen-den-terror/getoeteter-angreifer-von-paris-lebte-in-deutscher-unterkunft-fuer-asylbewerber-14006232.html
Two or three of the Paris attackers traveled into the EU as refugees. This is simply chaos. No one knows who is there, the police don't have the manpower even to deal with the obvious problems, and then they diffuse over Europe.
This is not a stable situation. This last case alone is going to cause major diplomatic problems, and there are more to come.
FrodosPet
(5,169 posts)I care more about the lives of the REAL victims. The Yazidi, the Kurds, the wrong sect, the woman of independence, the rape victims, the LGBT, all being slaughtered in the fulfillment of a fucked up, but literally accurate, religious duties.
My personal risk of being a victim of Islamic terrorism is pretty damn low. I am far more likely to be killed by some rich white drunken fucken idiot behind the wheel of his SUV or vroom vroom toy than I am a member of ISIS. So, I cannot speak for anyone else, but criticism of Islamic extremism is not that they are coming to get me.
Over and over, I read the attempts to equate legitimate western "bad stuff" to the ongoing slaughter in the Middle East. The people doing so are, for the most part, good people who want to make sure everyone gets a fair shake.
But what is happening is that the evidence of Islamic extremist's desire for social, as well as political, control is piling on. NOT ALL MUSLIMS! But enough to be a danger - not only from direct violence, but from cultural control.
I am not a Trump supporter. What I am worried about is that the left's ostrich-like reaction is going to continue to feed the bigots who hate Muslims because they hate everyone with a better tan then them.
Myself, I don't hate Muslims, but I do wish that they would leave their exclusionary apocalyptic religion for the same reasons I wish Christians would leave their exclusionary apocalyptic religion. If not, I hope they (both theys) find a kinder, more inclusive interpretation of their holy texts.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)in places like Cairo without getting harassed constantly?
840high
(17,196 posts)FLPanhandle
(7,107 posts)They are willing to throw women under the bus to appear "tolerant" of Islam. To me they are pathetic.
Democat
(11,617 posts)If you are against rape, you're a racist.
melman
(7,681 posts)is how certain posters go out of their way to minimize or cast doubt on these terrible assaults.
christx30
(6,241 posts)sexually assaulted and robbed en masse on New Years eve. And they didn't expect that the police would totally fail to protect them.
And Merkel's mistake was overestimating the gratitude of people that were allowed to go to Germany.
MowCowWhoHow III
(2,103 posts)Berlin (AFP) - Cologne police said Saturday the number of cases filed over violence during New Year's festivities had reached 379, and that asylum seekers and illegal migrants made up the majority of suspects.
"Those in focus of criminal police investigations are mostly people from North African countries. The majority of them are asylum seekers and people who are in Germany illegally," police said in a statement, adding that around 40 percent of the cases related to sexual assault.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/sex-assaults-german-city-braces-far-rally-060752257.html;_ylt=AwrC1CkIPpFWryQAGlLQtDMD;_ylu=X3oDMTByOHZyb21tBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--
christx30
(6,241 posts)18 people managed to pull all of that off in one night.
MowCowWhoHow III
(2,103 posts)christx30
(6,241 posts)"Four thousand throats may be cut in one night by a running man". Still, I think you're right.
It works for 21+ each for the night. I don't think ANYONE has that kind of energy.
trillion
(1,859 posts)"Those in focus of criminal police investigations are mostly people from North African countries. The majority of them are asylum seekers and people who are in Germany illegally," police added, confirming witness accounts.
mwrguy
(3,245 posts)Or PEGIDA would have committed a massacre by now.
Response to mwrguy (Reply #44)
christx30 This message was self-deleted by its author.
mwrguy
(3,245 posts)christx30
(6,241 posts)mwrguy
(3,245 posts)christx30
(6,241 posts)I wasn't saying I wanted the right wingers to gun down the refugees. I was saying that the attacks wouldn't have happened here in the states, considering that there are so many weapons here. And Americans, even without guns, would have physically and brutally attacked the refugees and others engaging in that sort of criminal nonsense. There would have been pipe and clubs used.
trillion
(1,859 posts)the seattle mardi gras riots did just this, is what I'm saying. So you are wrong.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Mardi_Gras_riot
" Several women were sexually assaulted. One man, Kris Kime, died of injuries sustained during an attempt to assist a woman being brutalized."
Bradical79
(4,490 posts)something somewhere between Merkel's open door and Trump's Hitleresque policies. I was kind of shocked how ill prepared they were for this considering how predictable the problem was. Also, so many want to treat it like it's a binary choice.
trillion
(1,859 posts)
Quantess
(27,630 posts)The RW Nationalists will win the next elections all over Europe.
Response to FLPanhandle (Original post)
Post removed
Mc Mike
(9,114 posts)Last edited Sun Jan 10, 2016, 09:05 PM - Edit history (1)
like most large religions.
There's a world of difference between West African Islam and Indonesian Islam, between Sufists, dervishes, and wahabists. Salaam is their word for peace.
I'm a Catholic pro-choice Dem, and would hate to be lumped in with the repugs' insane fascist Opus Dei types, dominionists, charismatics, and evangelicals, their Bakkers, Hagees, Muthees, Falwells, Robertsons, Benedicts, Carsons, Huckabees, Jindals, Santorums.
I hope that hating all religions the same doesn't mean that you feel all diverse followers of the different religions can be viewed the same way.
katsy
(4,246 posts)👍🏼
FLPanhandle
(7,107 posts)As an atheist, I have no problem pointing out that Islam and many other religions are the antithesis of everything liberal.
Fuck the apologists for such behavior just because the perpetrators are Muslim and immigrants.
trillion
(1,859 posts)Maybe you want to rethink that rhetoric that is sweeping - including the whole religion of Islam, and not just covering terrorists and outlaws in the Muslim world? Rape is against the law in every country in the world by the way, even the Arab ones.
6chars
(3,967 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)(;
trillion
(1,859 posts)black and brown people did it. They could have been French. I mean get real people, this jump to deport all immigrants is racial hatred. Even the accusation because it is not known who they are.
If it were immigrants, I would still say deporting a mass because of what a few did is way over the top. When you bring in 1 million there are bound to be bad apples. That's something you accept as an adult when you bring them in. It still is better to bring them in instead of don't help them because a small amount will be people they wouldn't want.
6chars
(3,967 posts)Take with a rain of sault, as the number of criminal acts reported has increased to around 400 since this article.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/latest-news/18-asylum-seekers-linked-to-cologne-crimes/news-story/0ba9b1d0a785e393769d9053b99b8079?nk=be74530d777fe7e922d1bfefb137d73b-1452432893
Cologne police said on Friday that they had arrested two males aged 16 and 23 with "North African roots" suspected of involvement in the assaults.
Separately, German federal police said they had identified 32 people who were suspected of playing a role in the violence, 22 of whom were in the process of seeking asylum in Germany.
The federal police documented 76 criminal acts, most them involving some form of theft, and seven linked to sexual molestation.
Of the 32 suspects, nine were Algerian, eight Moroccan, five Iranian, and four Syrian. Three German citizens, an Iraqi, a Serb and a US citizen were also identified
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)This does not help that argument
trillion
(1,859 posts)The article clearly says they don't even know if the attackers are immigrants. There is also no information if they are muslim.
This person is coming up with a racist answer - deport all immigrants because of the acts of a few people that they don't even know are immigrants.
