Former Rep. Barney Frank Says Orlando Shooting Reinforces Case For Surveillance Of 'Islamic Element'

[Purveyor]

Source: MassLive

By Michelle Williams | [e-mail]
Email the author | Follow on Twitter
on June 13, 2016 at 2:07 PM

Barney Frank, a long serving member of the U.S. House of Representatives from Massachusetts, voiced concerns regarding the safety of gay Americans, an "Islamic element" in terrorism and an increased need for surveillance and gun control.

Frank spoke of the attack at a gay nightclub in Orlando this weekend in an interview with the New York Times Monday.

"It's an attack against gay people but it does not reflect a general deterioration of our standing in America," he said. "It reflects the virulence of the hatred in this sector of Islam."

Frank represented Massachusetts in the House for 32 years, completing his final term in office in 2013. He came out publicly as gay in 1987, the first member of Congress to voluntarily do so, and has been a vocal gay rights advocate.

Read more: http://www.masslive.com/politics/index.ssf/2016/06/former_massachusetts_rep_barne.html

[villager]

1. No, you sell-out, it reflects the need to keep *already surveilled* potential terrorists...

...from buying guns.

But I guess that would be harder work to implement.

[philosslayer]

2. Love Barney, but couldn't disagree more

Profiling and further stigmatizing Muslims is not the answer.

[Delver Rootnose]

3. So when are we going to ....

....start surveilling bankers and thier lobbiests. More people died from the fallout of thier thefts than this shooting. Let's start by putting frank on a banker watch list.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

7. Point well taken.

[Autumn]

4. Poor confused Frank, the guy was already under surveillance.

Barney would do better to just STFU and concentrate on his Signature Bank gig.

[Indydem]

6. He was not under surveillance.

Or on any watch list.

[Autumn]

9. He had been under surveillance by the FBI according to the news. nt

[peace13]

11. They said he had been investigated multiple times.

Too bad they can't flag the names for gun buys. That would be helpful!

[Duval]

17. The FBI should have told the police.

He was under surveillance for quite awhile, and then taken off after he appeared to be "ok", ex: getting married, having a job.

[a kennedy]

22. Twice they interviewed him..HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN ON THE D*MN LIST.....

[MariaThinks]

36. I have to wonder why he was not.

[24601]

74. The FBI completed their investigation and determined there were neither criminal violations nor a

terrorism nexus.

We can debate about the extent of FBI tools, authorities and the scope of their investigations; however, I never thought DU would be the place for advocating our government keeping anyone on a secret watch list after the investigation closed without substantiating neither crime nor terrorism.

[oberliner]

46. His point was actually that he should have remained under surveillance

So that when he tried to buy a gun and body armor, he would've been the the radar.

[uppityperson]

5. Orlando mass murders reinforces case for surveillance of homophobic elelment

uppityperson,a long serving member of the Democratic underground, voiced concerns regarding the safety of gay Americans, an "homophobic element " in terrorism and an increased need for surveillance and gun control.

UP spoke of the attack at all over DU this weeknd in an interview with the us Monday.

"It's an attack against gay people and it does reflect a general deterioration of attitudes in America," she said. "It reflects the virulence of the hatred in this sector of homophobes" .

[librarylu]

8. How about surveillance......

.....on everyone who buys a gun to see what they;re going to use it for?

[oberliner]

48. He made a point about the weapons as well

First: “Nobody outside the military should be allowed to own’’ the kind of assault rifle used by the Orlando gunman, he said. The Constitution, he said, does not allow unfettered access to any kind of weapon.

[MisterP]

10. Republican: "Muslim surveillance" *internet erupts, DU gets hundreds of threads*

Democrat: "Muslim surveillance" DU: "well, he means well--maybe there's something to it"

[ncliberal]

16. +1000. nt

[MisterP]

24. that "maybe there's something to it" is real important: in the IWR Clinton didn't just vote yea

but repeated all the Bush-Cheney propaganda, from invoking 9-11 to the anthrax drone fears (since after it was William S. Cohen holding a 5-lb. sack of sugar 1997 to illustrate that one payload of Iraqi anthrax could kill half of Washington)

[oberliner]

49. News site completely manipulates when Democrat says

DUers who already don't like Barney Frank because of his opposition to Bernie Sanders respond based on a headline without actually reading the article.

[bluestateguy]

12. Islam is pretty anti-gay on the whole

We are conditioned as Americans to pay attention to the homophobia of evangelical Christians, Mormons and Catholics. That too sometimes results in violence, and more commonly, discrimination.

Ok, got that shit out of the way.

Islam cannot get a pass for their homophobia.

I do not favor suveillance of anybody unless there is probably cause, but nobody can deny that Islam (even so called moderate Muslims) espouse anti-gay views. And anti-gay views result in discrimination and violence.

[840high]

23. .+1

[MariaThinks]

32. what does islam believe about homosexuality?

I think the imam who spoke recently in orlando advocated for death to gay people. Not sure how reciting that is being islamophobic.

[oberliner]

54. The Old Testament is a lot more anti-gay than the Qu'ran

For what that is worth.

[former9thward]

57. No, its not.

But I don't see people who follow the Old Testament running into gay clubs and slaughtering all in sight. Why people who claim to be the the Left constantly give Islam a cover and try and pretend Christians are doing the same I don't know.

[oberliner]

59. Yes, it is

The Old Testament explicitly calls homosexuality an abomination and states unequivocally that anyone who engages in such behavior should be put to death.

From Leviticus 18:22

‘You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."

From Leviticus 20:13

"If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them."

[former9thward]

66. I know what the Old Testament says.

The Old Testament also gives death for the following (which is not a complete list)

Adultery (Lev 20:10-12, (man and woman).

Lying about virginity. Applies to girls who are still in their fathers' homes, who lie about their virginity, and are presented to their husband as a virgin. The accused is guilty until proved innocent. (Deut 22:20-21).

Making love to a virgin pledged to be married to another. Applies to man who deflowers virgin pledged to be married, and to the virgin if she does not call for help. (Deut 22:23-24).

The daughter of a priest practicing prostitution (death by fire) (Lev 21 ).

Rape of someone who is engaged. If she is not engaged you only have to marry her and give her father 50 shekels. No mention is made of the girl’s opinion. (Deut 22:25).

Men practicing bestiality. (Both man and animal die). (Lev 20:15)

Women practicing bestiality (Both woman and animal die). (Lev 20:16)

Having sex with your father’s wife, as distinct from "your mother", as it was common practice for men at the time to have several wives. (both die). (Lev 20:20).

Having sex with your daughter in law. (Lev 20:30)

Incest. (Lev 20:17)

Marrying a woman and her daughter. They are all burnt to death (Lev 20:14)

Worshiping idols (Ex 22:20, Lev 20:1-5, Deut 17:2-7).

Blasphemy (Lev 24:14-16,23).

Breaking the Sabbath (Ex 31:14, Numb 15:32-36).

Practicing magic (Ex 22:18).

Being a medium or spiritualist. (stoning) (Lev 20:27).
T
Trying to convert people to another religion. (stoning) (Deut 13:1-11, 18:20).

Yet I don't see Christians practicing any of these and I don't see nations with a Christian tradition enforcing any of these. Islamic nations do enforce their prohibitions with death and their fanatics in the West carry it out also. Why are you trying to give cover for them???

[oberliner]

67. Exactly

It is the worst of the worst as far as holy books of the Abrahamic religions goes.

You seem to be in agreement on that.

[former9thward]

68. You are obsessed by a book.

Most practicing Christians don't even know those are in the Old Testament or don't care if they do know. Everyone who is practicing Islam know what is in the Quran and they have governments which enforce it. A religion which is an enemy of gays and women and anyone who does not follow that faith. There is no equivalency here.

[oberliner]

69. My claim was that the Old Testament was a lot more anti-gay than the Qu'ran

You wrote that it wasn't, so I was just trying to support my assertion with examples from the text.

I am very glad that most practicing Christians don't know and/or care what is in the Old Testament.

I would mention that Orthodox Jews do know and care what is in the Old Testament and devote much of their time to studying it (at least the men do).

[MariaThinks]

79. that's the key point for anyone who wants to stop the slaughter instead of just

trying to make excuses and not do anything to stop the next jihadis.

[BadtotheboneBob]

61. Islam and the OT

The first five books of the 'Old Testament', aka the Pentateuch or Torah in Judaism, form one of the fundamental tenets of Islamic belief... For whatever that's worth.

[oberliner]

62. Exactly

The foundational text with respect to the homophobia found in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam is the Old Testament.

[dbackjon]

13. He has turned into such a disapointment

[Duval]

18. I know. Sigh!

[former9thward]

58. Thanks for your concern.

I know you are disappointed he is not covering up Islam's hatred of gays.

[Bluenorthwest]

14. Barney was the Big Hero of Straight DU recently, they were all proudly standing with him....

nt

[Ash_F]

15. HIS CO-WORKERS TRIED TO TURN HIM IN!

We don't need our rights randomly violated.

We need law enforcement to do their job instead of ignoring it.

[oberliner]

45. That is the same point Frank is making

That they should have continued to surveil him after he was questioned repeatedly by the FBI.

[myrna minx]

19. This year has revealed the true character of many people I *once* greatly admired.

Congressman Frank, you sir are not the man I once thought you were. I guess the inner Neo-con was always there. sigh.

[Purveyor]

21. You got that right... eom

[MariaThinks]

35. have you actually read the article? or just the misleading headline?

[oberliner]

44. Here's what he said

First: “Nobody outside the military should be allowed to own’’ the kind of assault rifle used by the Orlando gunman, he said. The Constitution, he said, does not allow unfettered access to any kind of weapon. “By that logic people can have shoulder-fired missiles,” he said.

Mr. Frank also said, commenting that this would irk his friends on the political left: “There is an Islamic element here. Yes, the overwhelming majority of Muslims don’t do this, but there is clearly, sadly, an element in the interpretation of Islam that has some currency, some interpretation in the Middle East that encourages killing people — and L.G.B.T. people are on that list. And I think it is fair to ask leaders of the Islamic community, religious and otherwise, to spend some time combatting this.’’

Which components of those statements do you disagree with?

[Attorney in Texas]

20. Sad to see him unwind.

[sulphurdunn]

25. Between the terrorist and our saviors,

they're going to turn this country into the United States of East Germany if we let them.

[MariaThinks]

27. what do you suggest be done?

the murderer was not being harassed by the authorities, his father was free to spew his poisonous garbage over the airways, and yet he slaughtered many people? What do you think should be done?

[sulphurdunn]

53. Ban high capacity magazines

for assault rifles. Limit the number of small capacity magazines that may be purchased or legally owned for all semi-automatic weapons. Restrict the number of firearms that can be legally owned or purchased in a given period of time and require they be permitted. Require at least 2 witnesses to vouch for the purchaser in writing and initiate a 2 week waiting period and deep background check to purchase any firearm. Any felony, or misdemeanor conviction for a violent crime, or a history of mental instability, multiple criminal investigations whether resulting in convictions or not, or dishonorable discharge from the armed forces should disqualify one from purchasing a firearm. Ban gun show sales. Require the resale of firearms to be conducted through the DMV with a registration transfer like is done for vehicles. Finally, ensure that any crime committed with a firearm or illegal trafficking in them is severely punished. None of these measures would violate the constitution, nor do they require the creation of a Stasi style neighborhood snitch culture.

[MariaThinks]

55. i agree with that. but how would that have stopped the massacres at the boston marathon?

does anyone remember the little boy blown to bits by the refugee who embraced radical islam?

[sulphurdunn]

60. Turing the country

into a police state with constant monitoring of everyone by everyone else might have prevented it. Check points on roads and street corners could have been useful. Internal passports and permission to travel is a good idea. Stopping all foreigners from entering the country, building a wall around our thousands of miles of border and closing down our airports and port facilities might have helped.

[sulphurdunn]

76. In the real world, no one bats a thousand.

However, 69 terrorist plots have been foiled since 9-11due to improvements in anti-terrorist security measures. Most, of them were planned by Muslims. However, the list also includes white supremacists, radical Christians and a Jew.

[Taitertots]

71. Terrorist who didn't use guns have killed thousands more people...

Than terrorists with guns.

Your policies would do nothing to protect innocent life from terrorism.

[sulphurdunn]

75. After terrorist used planes

to commit mass murder on 9-11, we implemented procedures to try and keep them off of commercial aircraft. After Oklahoma city and the first Twin Towers bombings, procedures were put in place to track and monitor the sale of high explosives and materials that can used to make them. Assault style military weapons with high capacity magazines were banned in 1993 after the school shooting in Stockton. That ban was allowed to lapse in 2003. The rest is history. Implementing procedures that create a useful profile of someone purchasing a weapon, combined with reducing the capacity and number of magazines that can be purchased for semi-automatic weapons, is both reasonable and will absolutely save lives.

Anyone who's ever been in combat knows that you're most vulnerable when you have to reload. Firing 30 rounds from 3 ten round magazines will take longer than firing them from a single magazine. More time gives human targets a chance to react by either running, hiding, or counter attacking. So, I must respectfully disagree with your conclusion.

[Taitertots]

83. Anyone whose been in combat knows that bombs andor chemical attacks are force multipliers

Youre making the fatal assumption that there are no substitutes for firearms.

I respectfully disagree with your conclusion that terrorists will respond to a magazine capacity ban by using smaller magazines. They will substitute deadlier (albeit slightly more inconvenient) methods of mass murder.

We're very lucky that the people who attack us are not very good at chemistry, because a modest sized ANFO bomb would have leveled pulse and all the buildings around it.

[sulphurdunn]

84. I understand your argument.

It is sound. Mine is that most such terror attacks are conducted by individuals or small groups using firearms. I believe this pattern will continue for the simple reason that firearms are relatively easy to obtain and do not require a knowledge of chemistry. Therefore, regulating firearm capabilities will, as a matter of fact, reduce the number of casualties in such attacks. Whether or not that encourages lone wolves and small terrorist cells to organize more sophisticated attacks is hypothetical. The majority of thwarted terrorist plots have been against would be bombers.

[MariaThinks]

26. At least Frank cares about stopping the violence

unlike the many who keep deflecting and offering no solutions.

[angrychair]

28. Yep

surveillance Of Muslims gets right to the heart of gun violence and gun culture in America and how we stop another attack like this from happening again.

[MariaThinks]

31. do you have any solutions?

[Chakab]

37. Banning assault rifles would be a good start.

[MariaThinks]

38. Ok. Good, i agree. What about the explosives used in the boston marathon?

[DustyJoe]

52. tricky

Boston bombers emptied a bunch of fireworks into a metal cooking container. All available retail with no checks of any kind.

[MariaThinks]

56. so no answers to stop it?

[atreides1]

77. Police State

That's the solution you're looking for...or just arrest all Muslims, lock them up in camps...until the government figures out a way to separate the loyal ones from those that might pose a threat!!!

Or, maybe use that "Final Solution" to erase every single fucking threat you can possibly imagine...better yet why don't you go live in a cave!!!

There is no such thing as complete security...that idea is the biggest fairy tale in the history of man!!!

[MariaThinks]

80. there are many solutions between police state OR doing nothing. For one, the communities

against homosexuals could go out and support them.

For another, people who are radicalized should be discouraged and helped as opposed excused and idolized.

People who want to do nothing will talk in absolutes. No such thing as complete security. Why stop smoking or get any medical tests? Afterall there's no such thing as not getting sick.

[oberliner]

43. "Nobody outside the military should be allowed to own’’ the kind of assault rifle...

used by the Orlando gunman"

Was the first point that he made.

[Lucinda]

33. After reading the replies I can't help but wonder how many didn't read the article... n/t

[MariaThinks]

34. Most of them.

[oberliner]

42. Exactly

And the headline is extremely manipulative.

His main point was:

First: “Nobody outside the military should be allowed to own’’ the kind of assault rifle used by the Orlando gunman, he said. The Constitution, he said, does not allow unfettered access to any kind of weapon. “By that logic people can have shoulder-fired missiles,” he said.

Edit to add: That's included in the link provided in the article in the OP (rather than in the text of the OP itself).

[sangfroid]

39. What does Frank mean?

Publicly out Muslims? Those going to mosques? Those with Fatima or Mohammad in their name? Those who emigrated from a supposedly Muslim country five generations ago? If only there was some way to mark them so government agents know, like a patch...

[oberliner]

41. If someone espouses affinity for ISIS or killing gays, they should be on the radar

And if they try to buy an assault rifle and body armor, that past radicalism should come up.

[christx30]

47. Don't forget those that refer to the Taliban as 'brothers'

like this guy's dad did.

You hear someone likes Trump, and there are a few assumptions you can make right off the bat, and you probably wouldn't be far off. Being a fan of the Taliban can pretty much bring about the same kinds of assumptions.

[sangfroid]

70. What does

"Espouses affinity" mean? And how quickly can it go from that to "you know, those nonviolent protestors look kinda dangerous." In fact, why don't we just staff up Gitmo again?

And this comes from Barney Frank, who went slobbering insane about how violent Bernie supporters are on a number of MSNBC shows. Maybe we should be watching those people too.

[oberliner]

72. Staff up Gitmo again?

What are you talking about?

I am just saying that when someone purchases an assault weapon, it would be good if to know if they had expressed support for ISIS before selling it to them.

That seems like a potential red flag.

[sangfroid]

73. Sorry

But did you not use the phrase, "espouse affinity" (which could mean anything up to and including investigating someone with a distaste for some of Israel's more odder human rights policies) only to later change your point to "expresses support." It's a slippery slope that's already been well-greased by the over-the-top Barney Frank.

And staffing up Gitmo? Why not? Mr. Frank has already defined Bernie supporters as violent thugs. Again, another short step to doing whatever was needed to control awful people like me who throws chairs.

[oberliner]

40. The headline completely manipulates what he said

His actual comments:

First: “Nobody outside the military should be allowed to own’’ the kind of assault rifle used by the Orlando gunman, he said. The Constitution, he said, does not allow unfettered access to any kind of weapon. “By that logic people can have shoulder-fired missiles,” he said.

Mr. Frank also said, commenting that this would irk his friends on the political left: “There is an Islamic element here. Yes, the overwhelming majority of Muslims don’t do this, but there is clearly, sadly, an element in the interpretation of Islam that has some currency, some interpretation in the Middle East that encourages killing people — and L.G.B.T. people are on that list. And I think it is fair to ask leaders of the Islamic community, religious and otherwise, to spend some time combatting this.’’

[fbc]

63. I am disgusted by Barney Frank like any good progressive, but you are right.

[oberliner]

64. I appreciate that you can keep those points of view separate from one another

I understand that a lot of progressives dislike Barney Frank for a variety of reasons, and I appreciate your comment here within that context.

[valerief]

50. Why not attack ALL the religions that tell people they're pieces of shit if they're gay?

ALL these religions are guilty and should be held accountable.

[oberliner]

51. He made that exact point in the statement

Any radical person who espouses a violent ideology towards gays or other groups to the point that they are on the radar of the FBI ought to continue to be on that radar, especially as they try to purchase weapons.

[tabasco]

65. I would prefer surveillance, prosecution and punishment

of those who knowingly lied and deceived the American people and launched a war on a country which was not a threat to the USA.

[truebrit71]

78. No Barney it doesn't. Now go cash your lobbyist checks and have a nice cup of STFU.

[crim son]

81. In this case

I'd say the Islamic element was no more powerful than the Christian element i.e. the guy felt shame, guilt and anger concerning his own sexuality due to his religious teaching, and took it out on those who were like him. He had issues and perhaps in time might have found another target, but to my mind, this shooting was the consequence of the anti LBGT rhetoric coming from all sides at all times.

[DashOneBravo]

82. ISIS called for Ramadan attacks

Last edited Fri Jun 17, 2016, 06:23 PM - Edit history (1)

ISIS attacked and killed 49 and wounded 53. Ramadan ends 05July.



If they do that again, you can hang it up. This is what makes us look stupid and weak to everyone else. A dude slaughtered Americans, made a Facebook post and called 911 claiming ISIS. And with the bodies still on the floor, there were some of us already twisting it.

[link:http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/22/world/isis-more-attacks-ramadan/|