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Doctor Jack

(3,072 posts)
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 03:55 PM Jun 2016

Armitage to back Clinton over Trump

Source: Politico

Richard Armitage, the deputy secretary of state under George W. Bush, says he will vote for Hillary Clinton over Donald Trump, in one of the most dramatic signs yet that Republican national security elites are rejecting their party’s presumptive nominee.

Armitage, a retired Navy officer who also served as an assistant secretary of defense under Ronald Reagan, is thought by Clinton aides to be the highest-ranking former GOP national security official to openly support Clinton over Trump.
Story Continued Below

“If Donald Trump is the nominee, I would vote for Hillary Clinton,” Armitage told POLITICO in a brief interview. “He doesn't appear to be a Republican, he doesn't appear to want to learn about issues. So, I’m going to vote for Mrs. Clinton.”

Dozens of Republican foreign policy elites have already declared their unwillingness to support or work for Trump, though far fewer say they would cast a ballot for Clinton. The latter group includes Max Boot, a prominent neoconservative military analyst and historian; Mark Salter, former longtime chief of staff to Republican Sen. John McCain; and retired Army Col. Peter Mansour, a former top aide to retired Gen. David Petraeus.



Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/richard-armitage-endorses-clinton-224431



More rats fleeing the ship, it would appear
43 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Armitage to back Clinton over Trump (Original Post) Doctor Jack Jun 2016 OP
Armitage aka "The Man Who Said Too Much" crossed over long ago-he was the leak in the Plame affair azurnoir Jun 2016 #1
Post removed Post removed Jun 2016 #2
Armitage wasn't a Neocon, he was Powell's guy nt geek tragedy Jun 2016 #5
You've forgotten you're talking to someone who thinks Hillary is a neocon. pnwmom Jun 2016 #10
Armitage wasn't a neocon. TwilightZone Jun 2016 #12
"O K" OnyxCollie Jun 2016 #25
If calling for regime change in Iraq in 1998 makes one a neocon... TwilightZone Jun 2016 #27
You would prefer him to endorse Trump? yardwork Jun 2016 #19
According to Armitage, Hillary appears to be a Republican. OnyxCollie Jun 2016 #3
+1 phazed0 Jun 2016 #7
She is definitely conservative in most of her views. She jumped ship when the Republicons rhett o rick Jun 2016 #8
Nope. TwilightZone Jun 2016 #13
LOL. You can't be serious. Someone puts a red dot on a graph and you buy it. rhett o rick Jun 2016 #14
I Don't Know. JustABozoOnThisBus Jun 2016 #15
Who's playing third base? rhett o rick Jun 2016 #16
Grrrr! No!!!11! Who's on First!!! nt JustABozoOnThisBus Jun 2016 #21
How about all of the issues that they list at the link? TwilightZone Jun 2016 #28
The graph is total bullshit. seabeckind Jun 2016 #37
This is some BS if I've ever seen it. You can't be serious YOHABLO Jun 2016 #32
11th most liberal Senator in her time there muriel_volestrangler Jun 2016 #20
She's only a liberal if one doesn't hand-pick a few things and base proclamations on just those few. TwilightZone Jun 2016 #29
On economic principles she is a conservative. seabeckind Jun 2016 #38
I want that old Hillary back mdbl Jun 2016 #42
You would prefer him to endorse Trump? yardwork Jun 2016 #18
I would prefer Hillary's policies to be antithetical OnyxCollie Jun 2016 #22
Do you understand how elections work? yardwork Jun 2016 #34
Yes. Do you? OnyxCollie Jun 2016 #35
I'm certain her policies ARE antithetical to Armitage jmowreader Jun 2016 #36
Thank you for your patience. yardwork Jun 2016 #41
I'd prefer him to go pound sand. seabeckind Jun 2016 #39
Nobody's asking you to shake hands with anybody. yardwork Jun 2016 #40
Then I guess she should give me a reason for voting for her, shouldn't she. seabeckind Jun 2016 #43
The ship is so overladen with rats, it might just sink. leveymg Jun 2016 #4
Think of her what you will bucolic_frolic Jun 2016 #6
If Trump gets dumped it would be wholly un-Democratic... phazed0 Jun 2016 #9
I actually don't think bucolic_frolic Jun 2016 #11
What a trick that would be to have Trump quit and then have Jeb be voted in at the convention. rhett o rick Jun 2016 #17
Hilarious comment at TPM today: The rats are abandoning the ship in a conga line. tanyev Jun 2016 #23
wow MariaThinks Jun 2016 #24
The rats are fleeing one ship and infesting another. bunnies Jun 2016 #26
I look at it in a bit of a different way Doctor Jack Jun 2016 #30
She is the better Republican. ozone_man Jun 2016 #31
It is very telling that we're seeing these establishment Repugs jump ship for Hillary. How we get it YOHABLO Jun 2016 #33

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
1. Armitage aka "The Man Who Said Too Much" crossed over long ago-he was the leak in the Plame affair
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 03:57 PM
Jun 2016

On November 15, 2005, journalist Bob Woodward of The Washington Post revealed in an article that "a government official with no axe to grind" leaked to him the identity of outed CIA officer Valerie Plame in mid-June 2003. According to an April 2006 Vanity Fair article (published March 14, 2006), former Washington Post executive editor Ben Bradlee said in an interview "that Armitage is the likely source is a fair assumption", though Bradlee later told the Post that he " not recall making that precise statement" in the interview. The following year, on March 2, 2006, bloggers discovered that "Richard Armitage" fit the spacing on a redacted court document, suggesting he was a source for the Plame leak. In August 2006, the Associated Press published a story that revealed Armitage met with Bob Woodward in mid-June 2003. The information came from official State Department calendars, provided to The Associated Press under the Freedom of Information Act.

Robert Novak, in an August 27, 2006 appearance on Meet the Press, stated that although he still would not release the name of his source, he felt it was long overdue that the source reveal himself. Armitage has also reportedly been a cooperative and key witness in the investigation. According to The Washington Note, Armitage has testified before the grand jury three times.

On August 29, 2006, Neil A. Lewis of The New York Times reported that Armitage was the "initial and primary source" for columnist Robert Novak's July 14, 2003 article, which named Valerie Plame as a CIA "operative" and which triggered the CIA leak investigation.

On August 30, 2006, CNN reported that Armitage had been confirmed "by sources" as leaking Wilson's CIA role in a "casual conversation" with Robert Novak. The New York Times, quoting people "familiar with his actions", reported that Armitage was unaware of Wilson's undercover status when he spoke to Novak.

In the September 4, 2006 issue of Newsweek magazine, in an article titled "The Man Who Said Too Much", journalist Michael Isikoff, quoting a "source directly familiar with the conversation who asked not to be identified because of legal sensitivities", reported that Armitage was the "primary" source for Robert Novak's piece outing Plame. Armitage allegedly mentioned Wilson's CIA role to Novak in a July 8, 2003 interview after learning about her status from a State Department memo which made no reference to her undercover status. Isikoff also reported that Armitage had also told Bob Woodward of Plame's identity in June 2003, and that special counsel Patrick Fitzgerald investigated Armitage's role "aggressively", but did not charge Armitage with a crime because he "found no evidence that Armitage knew of Plame's covert CIA status when he talked to Novak and Woodward".

On September 7, 2006, Armitage admitted to being the source in the CIA leak. Armitage claims that Fitzgerald had originally asked him not to discuss publicly his role in the matter, but that on September 5 Armitage asked Fitzgerald if he could reveal his role to the public, and Fitzgerald consented.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Armitage_(politician)

Response to Doctor Jack (Original post)

pnwmom

(108,973 posts)
10. You've forgotten you're talking to someone who thinks Hillary is a neocon.
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 04:37 PM
Jun 2016

S/he thinks Powell is one, too.

 

OnyxCollie

(9,958 posts)
25. "O K"
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 07:10 PM
Jun 2016
Bush administration
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Armitage_(politician)

In 1998, Armitage signed a letter to President Bill Clinton. The letter urged Clinton to target the removal of Saddam Hussein's regime from power in Iraq. It stated that Saddam's massive violations of the cease-fire that had ended the First Gulf War has caused erosion of the Gulf War Coalition's containment policy. It also raised the possibility that Iraq, emboldened by Western inaction, might re-develop weapons of mass destruction.

During the 2000 Presidential election campaign, he served as a foreign policy advisor to George W. Bush as part of a group led by Condoleezza Rice that called itself The Vulcans.[13] The United States Senate confirmed him as Deputy Secretary of State on March 23, 2001; he was sworn in three days later. A close associate of Secretary of State Colin Powell, Armitage was regarded, along with Powell, as a moderate within the presidential administration of George W. Bush.

According to President Musharraf of Pakistan, shortly after 9/11, Armitage presented him with demands for assistance in the campaign against Al-Qaeda and the Taliban which were non-negotiable. Should Pakistan accept, it would be considered a United States ally. Should it decline, Pakistan would be considered an enemy. According to Musharraf, Armitage further averred that, should Pakistan decline, the United States would bomb it "back to the Stone Age". Armitage denies having used those words.

TwilightZone

(25,451 posts)
27. If calling for regime change in Iraq in 1998 makes one a neocon...
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 07:59 PM
Jun 2016

Bernie Sanders is a neocon. Except, he isn't, of course, though he voted for regime change in Iraq, using a similar argument to that put forth by Armitage.

Sanders, in 1998: Hussein is “a brutal and illegitimate dictator who should be removed from office, and his capability to make weapons of mass destruction must be eliminated. In order to do that, we must develop a political strategy and support the democratic forces in Iraq who are prepared to overthrow him.”

As for Musharraf's comments, he had a book to plug (he refused to provide details ostensibly because his publisher asked him not to), so his comments should probably be taken with the same grain of salt as Armitage's. As noted earlier in your article, "Armitage confirmed he had held a conversation with the Pakistani general to whom Musharraf had sourced the comments, but stated he had not used a threat of military action couched in such terms, as he was not authorized to do so."

Armitage is no doubt a long-term weasel and his involvement in Iran-Contra and the Plame affair were abhorrent, but let's not pretend that he is on par with Cheney, Wolfowitz, Pearle, etc. He was Powell's subordinate and a relative moderate in the Bush administration, as your quoted excerpt notes. He and Powell were on the losing end of the argument with Cheney et al about Iraq and should have resigned, as Armitrage later claimed he considered doing, rather than going along with it. They're about the only two who have ever expressed regrets, though that's no less inexcusable.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
8. She is definitely conservative in most of her views. She jumped ship when the Republicons
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 04:32 PM
Jun 2016

wanted to invade Iraq. She agrees with the Republicons on keeping the min wage down below a living wage, keeping medical marijuana illegal, the so-called Free Trade (Job Killing) Agreements like NAFTA, TPIP and the TPP, more defense spending, fracking for oil profits, and a hawkish foreign policy.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
14. LOL. You can't be serious. Someone puts a red dot on a graph and you buy it.
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 05:18 PM
Jun 2016

Ontheissues is bogus. How about all the issues I mentioned?

TwilightZone

(25,451 posts)
28. How about all of the issues that they list at the link?
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 08:02 PM
Jun 2016

I guess your issues are the only ones that are important enough to stick on a graph, eh?

Perhaps that's why your candidate didn't do so hot with people who consider other issues important.

seabeckind

(1,957 posts)
37. The graph is total bullshit.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 05:06 AM
Jun 2016

People are complex in their viewpoints. The graph is a spin to rationalize the neoliberal into the liberal ranks.

IOW, in today's situation it is hiding reaganomics trickledown economic principles inside a socially liberal package and saying:

there ya go --- that's a liberal. Now shut up and be happy I let you work in a right to work state.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,294 posts)
20. 11th most liberal Senator in her time there
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 06:06 PM
Jun 2016
As it turns out, with a first-dimension score of -0.391 based upon her entire service in Congress, Hillary Clinton was the 11th most liberal member of the Senate in each of the 107th, 108th, 109th, and 110th Congresses. That places her slightly to the left of Pat Leahy (-0.386), Barbara Mikulski (-0.385) and Dick Durbin (-0.385); clearly to the left of Joe Biden (-0.331) and Harry Reid (-0.289); and well to the left of moderate Democrats like Jon Tester (-0.230), Blanche Lincoln (-0.173), and Claire McCaskill (-0.154).

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/03/31/1374629/-Hillary-Clinton-Was-the-11th-Most-Liberal-Member-of-the-Senate#

Also:

But it’s not like Biden and Clinton aren’t liberal. Clinton especially has a fairly liberal donor base by historical standards. Clinton would be to the left of the median senator (-0.33) in terms of voting record. Clinton, like Biden and Warren, would be the second-most liberal nominee in the modern era in terms of public statements.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/elizabeth-warren-would-be-the-most-liberal-democratic-nominee-since-1972/

TwilightZone

(25,451 posts)
29. She's only a liberal if one doesn't hand-pick a few things and base proclamations on just those few.
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 08:15 PM
Jun 2016

Otherwise known as "in the real world".

Sarcasm aside, I still find it funny that some find her to be some kind of conservative neanderthal, considering the kinds of things that she's known for supporting over the decades - kids, women, families, health care, environment, choice, human rights, etc.

The right thinks that she's some kind of ultra-liberal. Part of the left thinks she's a ultra-conservative. The right's actually closer.

seabeckind

(1,957 posts)
38. On economic principles she is a conservative.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 05:11 AM
Jun 2016

Her foreign views are conservative.

The right is only looking at the social part.

Just like you.

 

OnyxCollie

(9,958 posts)
22. I would prefer Hillary's policies to be antithetical
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 06:17 PM
Jun 2016

to a RW scumbag like Richard Armitage, not something he could get behind.

Do you believe Armitage "evolved?"

I don't.

 

OnyxCollie

(9,958 posts)
35. Yes. Do you?
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 09:39 PM
Jun 2016
"Democratic mass parties are bureaucratically organized under the leadership of party officials, professional party and trade union secretaries, etc.... Of course, one must remember that the term 'democratization' can be misleading. The demos itself, in the sense of an inarticulate mass, never 'governs' larger associations; rather it is governed, and its existence only changes the way in which the executive leaders are selected and the measure of influence which the demos, or better, which social circles from its midst are able to exert upon the content and the direction of administration activities by supplementing what is called 'public opinion.' 'Democratization,' in the sense here intended, does not necessarily mean an increasingly active share of the governed in the authority of the social structure. This may be the result of democratization, but it is not necessarily the case.... The most decisive thing here- and indeed it is rather exclusively so- is the leveling of the governed in opposition to the ruling and bureaucratically articulated groups, which in turn may occupy a quite autocratic position, both in fact and form." -Max Weber


Assumption 2: Representation and State Preferences States (or other political institutions) represent some subset of domestic society, on the basis of whose interests state officials define state preferences and act purposively in world politics.

In the liberal conception of domestic politics, the state is not an actor but a representative institution constantly subject to capture and recapture, construction and reconstruction by coalitions of social actors. Representative institutions and practices constitute the critical "transmission belt" by which the preferences and social power of individuals and groups are translated into state policy. Individuals turn to the state to achieve goals that private behavior is unable to achieve efficiently.9 Government policy is therefore constrained by the underlying identities, interests, and power of individuals and groups (inside and outside the state apparatus) who constantly pressure the central decision makers to pursue policies consistent with their preferences.

~snip~

This is not to adopt a narrowly pluralist view of domestic politics in which all individuals and groups have equal influence on state policy, nor one in which the structure of state institutions is irrelevant. No government rests on universal or unbiased political representation; every government represents some individuals and groups more fully than others. In an extreme hypothetical case, representation might empower a narrow bureaucratic class or even a single tyrannical individual, such as an ideal-typical Pol Pot or Josef Stalin. Between theoretical extremes of tyranny and democracy, many representative institutions and practices exist, each of which privileges particular demands; hence the nature of state institutions, alongside societal interests themselves, is a key determinant of what states do internationally.

Representation, in the liberal view, is not simply a formal attribute of state institutions but includes other stable characteristics of the political process, formal or informal, that privilege particular societal interests. Clientalistic authoritarian regimes may distinguish those with familial, bureaucratic, or economic ties to the governing elite from those without. Even where government institutions are formally fair and open, a relatively inegalitarian distribution of property, risk, information, or organizational capabilities may create social or economic monopolies able to dominate policy. Similarly, the way in which a state recognizes individual rights may shape opportunities for voice.10 Certain domestic representational processes may tend to select as leaders individuals, groups, and bureaucracies socialized with particular attitudes toward information, risk, and loss.

Moravcsik, A. (1997). Taking preferences seriously: A liberal theory of international politics. International Organization, 51(4), 513-553.

jmowreader

(50,546 posts)
36. I'm certain her policies ARE antithetical to Armitage
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 04:41 AM
Jun 2016

Armitage feels Trump's policies are antithetical to human life on this planet, which is true.

Let's approach this strategically. If we can get a dozen Reagan-administration officials to go on television and say something like "I'm going to hold my nose and vote for Hillary because Trump is too dangerous to allow near the White House," we can win a LOT of Reagan votes. Hillary will be a good president. Donald Trump will bring about the end of the world - not the United States, the world.

This is the year we get payback for 1984's "Reagan Democrats" - people who were good Democrats but couldn't bring themselves to vote for Walter Mondale. This year we're going to get Hillary Republicans - staunch Republicans who can't force their hands to put their mark next to Donald Trump's name. (And in 2020, we're going to get Republican superdelegates.)

seabeckind

(1,957 posts)
39. I'd prefer him to go pound sand.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 05:15 AM
Jun 2016

But then the enemy of my enemy is my friend in the minds of some.

But then I guess I'm a little more discriminating about who I shake hands with.

yardwork

(61,585 posts)
40. Nobody's asking you to shake hands with anybody.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 06:56 AM
Jun 2016

Do you understand how elections work? Hillary needs votes.

seabeckind

(1,957 posts)
43. Then I guess she should give me a reason for voting for her, shouldn't she.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:10 AM
Jun 2016

That's how elections work.

bucolic_frolic

(43,115 posts)
6. Think of her what you will
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 04:28 PM
Jun 2016

no one has to say she's a quick study

or makes it up as she goes along

because she doesn't.

I still wonder if Trump is going to get dumped from the GOP ticket

 

phazed0

(745 posts)
9. If Trump gets dumped it would be wholly un-Democratic...
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 04:34 PM
Jun 2016

..and if the D's are all right with that, well, it sets a precedent for Bernie to have the nomination regardless of votes... right?

Just thinking aloud, not picking on ya.. just adding to..

bucolic_frolic

(43,115 posts)
11. I actually don't think
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 04:46 PM
Jun 2016

the Republicans will care very much what the D's think

but if their own nominee becomes a spontaneous selection
they will use that argument against HRC

That said, spontaneous is not the way parties work, they filter
popularity every bit as much as the electoral college

Smoke filled rooms had their purpose, but there would be too much
cynicism if they were really used today ... which is the predicament
of the Republican Party. With their candidate getting more insane by the
day, they seek a way out, and can't find one.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
17. What a trick that would be to have Trump quit and then have Jeb be voted in at the convention.
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 05:50 PM
Jun 2016

I think Trump could be bought.

 

bunnies

(15,859 posts)
26. The rats are fleeing one ship and infesting another.
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 07:16 PM
Jun 2016

Looks like they're bringing the plague with them, too.

Doctor Jack

(3,072 posts)
30. I look at it in a bit of a different way
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 08:23 PM
Jun 2016

We often say "god, how could anyone vote for these republicans!? Can't they see the democrats are so much better?" and with Trump the question takes on a new urgency. Well if someone, even a conservative says "you know what, you guys are right, I can't vote for these republicans anymore, I'm going to vote Democrat" then I say that is good. Our response shouldn't be "you know what, on second thought, you can go fuck yourself, we don't care what you do!".

If republicans are starting to flee in droves from their party because it has become too extreme, we should welcome their votes, not kick them back to the GOP. The only way the republicans are going to change is if they lose so many voters that they have to moderate/reform. Telling those Republican refugees to fuck off is only going to end up screwing us over.

ozone_man

(4,825 posts)
31. She is the better Republican.
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 08:31 PM
Jun 2016

Trump is not controllable by the powers that be. Democrat or Republican makes little difference to them.

 

YOHABLO

(7,358 posts)
33. It is very telling that we're seeing these establishment Repugs jump ship for Hillary. How we get it
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 08:53 PM
Jun 2016

.

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