Germany slams NATO 'warmongering' on Russia

[NWCorona]

Source: Yahoo

German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier has criticised NATO for having a bellicose policy towards Russia, describing it as "warmongering", the German daily Bild reported.

Steinmeier pointed to the deployment of NATO troops near borders with Russia in the military alliance's Baltic and east European member states.

"What we should avoid today is inflaming the situation by warmongering and stomping boots," Steinmeier told Bild in an interview to be published Sunday.

"Anyone who thinks you can increase security in the alliance with symbolic parades of tanks near the eastern borders, is mistaken," Germany's top diplomat added

Read more: https://www.yahoo.com/news/germany-slams-nato-warmongering-russia-115515814.html?

[uhnope]

1. I wonder if he'll hand his resignation letter to Merkel in person

or do it by email

[NWCorona]

2. We will find out if he keeps his job soon enough lol!

[uhnope]

3. I bet his ass gets fired as it should be

[NWCorona]

4. It depends on if he was really speaking off the cuff

Germany has been playing both sides on Russia.

[transatlantica]

14. I take your bet

It is inconceivable that he said this without the consent of Merkel.

Which indeed indicates a shift in the German position.

[JackRiddler]

20. It is totally conceivable that he said it without clearing it with Merkel.

And he will not be "fired" for it because that would involve the fall of her government, a grand coalition with the SPD. It's not impossible she will rebuke him, but I'll bet she will do nothing of the sort, and try to get by with just ignoring it.

Finally, it's also as you imply possible that she's fine with the SPD guy sending the message, while she hews to the official NATO line of war is peace, etc. In no way does this harm her politically at home.

[transatlantica]

23. Agreed

that Merkel might privily approve his push while officially staying with the NATO line.

The reason why I think that Steinmeier let her know in advance is his personality: he's an extremely diplomatic guy and not known for disloyal surprises.

[Ghost Dog]

35. Merkel supports deeper economic cooperation with Russia

German Chancellor Angela Merkel supports deeper economic cooperation with Russia. Merkel says, she wants Moscow to get closer to the European economic area "step by step". And promises to immediately lift all sanctions from Russia. But only after it implements its part of the Minsk agreements, Deutsche Welle reports...

http://uatoday.tv/politics/merkel-wants-russia-to-be-part-of-european-economic-zone-666837.html

See Minsk agreements. Note these are about the Donbas oblasts, not Crimea, and how much onus is (still) on Ukraine to comply, as well as Russia.

[JackRiddler]

22. I wonder if you can even place Germany on a map...

judging by the deep knowledge of German politics evident in your comment.

[uhnope]

24. lol. if you only knew.

a bit touchy today it seems

[JackRiddler]

38. I don't react well to stupid + arrogant

And I don't care what you think you know about Germany. For all I know, you grew up there. Your statement that Steinmeier will be "fired" shows fundamental ignorance about the country's politics and governmental system, to which you add smugness and arrogance - practically a demo of Dunning-Kruger. Add to this your reliable neocon / Cold War politics and propaganda on behalf of every American war or covert operation in gestation, long as it's against one of the enemies McCain would pick, and the idea that you do this on a "Democratic" and "liberal" site (in the American sense of "liberal,&quot and yeah, I think I'll allow myself occasionally to respond to one or another of your manglings of fact, though there's little point in trying to engage you otherwise. (Will you bother to at least figure out the elementary mechanics of the German party and coalition system? Ha! Cue stupid one-liner response that doesn't rate as remotely funny, possibly accompanied by a set of ROFL smilies, true mark of the winning intellect -- or don't quit your day job, as they say of the world's surplus Kenny Banyas.)

[uhnope]

40. quite a heated rant

flailing at all your windmills, it seems.

maybe you're livid on this topic because you have a guilty chip on your shoulder the size of the rape of Ukraine, for supporting and spreading CT BS about the invasion and occupation on DU. Or maybe you just flamebait for a response, one of the definitions of trolling

I never use smilies, so you seem to be arguing with someone else, or the enemies in your mind. Perhaps consider healthier alternatives

[JackRiddler]

42. Right, the McCarthyism is charming as ever.

I'm glad you are keeping a dossier, Senator. I'm worth the trouble, you might learn something. Otherwise I'll note that of course you are incapable of speaking to the subject, which would be to correct your false and fantasized notions about German politics, Steinmeier and Merkel. Admitting and fixing factual errors would be a good way to start establishing some reality principle in your life. Perhaps you'd be better off looking up some of the stuff you mouth off about rather than keeping a DU enemies list.

[Xolodno]

41. I don't even bother responding to him anymore.

In the words of the great philosopher Ron White: "You can't fix stupid".


His responses are reduced to hyperbolic and pointless rhetoric, compounded by thinly veiled insults. Nothing of substance.

With the events in Orlando, found him rather silent given his ranting against Putin for being homophobic. And pretty much ignored Syria until Russia got involved.

Nor has he addressed Ukraine's issues on gay rights, its written in their constitution that marriage is between a man and woman.

And of course, he's ignoring the 500 pound gorilla in the room. The Minsk agreements being largely unfulfilled by Ukraine (granted Russia hasn't fully implemented the either, but they are much further along). The current government being corrupt as well (meet the new boss, same as the old boss) etc. and of course, Europe has grown weary of this.

I haven't put him on ignore because, once you stop taking him seriously, his responses are actually comical.

[JackRiddler]

43. Ouch. Nice. Thanks....

I don't usually respond to this character either. But sometimes, he'll provide an educational opening. Pointless to think he'll educate himself, but the ignorance about the positions of Steinmeier and Merkel is something worth correcting for others.

[Xolodno]

45. Point understood.

I usually try to affect that by responding to the person he responded to. Granted that probably isn't always viable solution.

Side note, he just provided me some comic relief....and yet, so predictable.

[uhnope]

44. two Putin explainers having a good ol' chat

I wish it were true that you ignore my posts, but now that you're here, please tell us the connection between Putin and Orlando. That sounds like some very entertaining Orwellian logic you're using there

on edit, it appears you've already been nailed. Very nailed. you probably ignore them too

[newthinking]

5. Good that not everyone is bought out and he understands this game can backfire

The "Narrative" is about economic and global political objectives, not real threats, but the narrative is out of hand and threatening the world.

Anyone who has been to Russia knows that the propaganda is just that. Russia is not perfect but many of the claims are fabrications and the narrative is not truthful but build on a specific set of objectives.

People are waking up as we are being "oversold".

[Night Watchman]

6. Another Putin Fan

Too bad Trump can't pick him for Veep, huh?

[NWCorona]

8. Are you talking to me or to Frank?

[Night Watchman]

9. The Foreign Minister, of Course!

[NWCorona]

10. Just wanted to be sure lol

That was one of the best scenes in that movie.

[JackRiddler]

21. Sure, tell yourself that.

Who could possibly have a problem with NATO running war exercises on the Russian border? Only friends of Putin!

[FairWinds]

11. Thanks Mr. Frank-Walter !!

FYI folks, the US is taking aggressive military postures

not only against Russia, but China as well - the infamous Pivot to Asia.

And all this with ZERO congressional votes.

As I learned in Vietnam and elsewhere, war and threats of war solve nothing.

Veterans For Peace

[Nye Bevan]

12. It was horrible when NATO just marched into Crimea and seized it for the West.

The guy has a point.

[NWCorona]

13. I know right

[Angel Martin]

15. touche ! nt

[newthinking]

16. Not this again.Read the recent history of *The AUTONOMOUS Republic of Crimea*

All the history is there simply by spending some time on wikipedia.

Russia did not "Take" Crimea. Crimeans reacted to the constitutional crisis created by a coup that brought a minority, ethnic russian hating, group into power.

They had fought against joining Ukraine from the breakup of the USSR. This was the second vote, the first vote in 1994 was for independence for Ukraine. 93% of the population did not want to be a part of Ukraine and did not consider themselves a part of Ukraine.

Sure Russia was only to glad to accommodate. But really Ukraine's claim was specious. If anything Crimea finally being able to leave Ukraine is seen by people there as a type of liberation.




From Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Crimea

Evolution of status of Crimea and Sevastopol within independent Ukraine
Autonomous Republic of Crimea

After the Crimean referendum of 1991, which asked whether Crimea should be elevated to a signatory of the New Union Treaty (that is, became a union republic on its own), Ukraine restored Crimea's autonomous status, but confirmed that autonomy restored as a part of the Ukrainian SSR. The Crimean Oblast council became Supreme Council of Crimea and, on 4 September 1991, passed the Declaration of state sovereignty of Crimea.[1]

Following the dissolution of the Soviet Union, the autonomy renamed itself the Republic of Crimea.[2] The Ukrainian government initially accepted its name, but not its claims to be a state. According to Ukrainian law "On status of the autonomous Republic of Crimea", passed on 29 April 1992, "Republic of Crimea is an autonomous part of the Ukraine and independently decides on matters, which are delegated to it by the Constitution and laws of the Ukraine" (art. 1).[3] The Regional Supreme Council, on the contrary, insisted that "Republic of Crimea is a legal democratic state", which "has supremacy in respect to natural, material, cultural and spiritual heritage" and "exercises its sovereign rights and full power" on its territory (art. 1 of the May 1992 Constitution), but also a "part of the Ukraine and establishes relations in it on a basis of the treaty and agreements" (art. 9).[4] Both Ukrainian law on autonomy status[5] and the 1992 Constitution of the Crimea[6] were amended later that year, putting the Republic's status in between what was proposed in the initial revision of the 1992 Constitution and what was proposed in April 1992 Ukrainian law on the status of the Republic.

On 21 May 1992 the Supreme Soviet of Russia declared 1954 transfer of Crimea as having "no legal force", because it was adopted "in violation of the Constitution (Fundamental Law) of the Russian SFSR and legislative process", but because subsequent legislation and the 1990 Russo-Ukrainian treaty constituted that fact, parliament considered it necessary to resolve the Crimean question in negotiations between Ukraine and Russia and on the basis of the popular will of the inhabitants of Crimea.[7] A similar resolution was adopted for Sevastopol a year later. Both moves were condemned by Ukraine[8][9][10] and resulted in no changes to the Russian Constitution (neither 1978 nor 1993 documents enumerated Crimea and Sevastopol as federal subjects).

In 1994, after parliamentary and presidential elections in the Republic, the Supreme Council and the executive became dominated by the Russian Bloc (which had won 57 seats in the Supreme Council of Crimea and Presidency for its member, Yuri Meshkov).[11] Following a referendum, held in same year, the Supreme Council of Crimea restored the 1992 Constitution to its original revision,[12] but a year later this constitution, along with the presidency and regional citizenship, was declared null and void by the Ukrainian Parliament, which by that time, had renamed the autonomy from "Republic of Crimea" to Autonomous Republic of Crimea.[13] Another Constitution was passed by Crimean parliament in 1995,[14] but many parts of it were rejected by the Ukrainian parliament; among them were Republic's name (which was to remain "Republic of Crimea&quot and citizenship.[15] Meanwhile, during drafting of the new Ukrainain Constiution, the question of autonomy was much debated: some legislators proposed abolishing it altogether (downgrading back to oblast status or to autonomy but not autonomous republic),[16][17] while other legislators proposed legalising the 1992 Constitution of Crimea provisions (original May revision) in the new Ukrainian Constitution.[16] Ultimately, the new Constitution of Ukraine adopted neither extreme and reiterated the autonomous status of the republic, while downgrading some of its powers (such as regional Supreme Council's powers to enact legislation in form of laws ("zakoni&quot ). The Republic was declared to be the "Autonomous Republic of Crimea", but also an "inseparable constituent part of Ukraine".[18] A new Crimean constitution, complying with provisions of the Ukrainian one, was adopted in 1998.

[newthinking]

17. The Propaganda War Over Crimea's Break From Ukraine

We pushed Crimea into the referendum just as the historical movement was cooling down.



What you do not hear in the news Crimea has fought for independence (from Ukraine) continually
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1017&pid=246295

This is also a good piece to read to understand better what went on.

The Propaganda War Over Crimea's Break From Ukraine
By Roger Annis,
Truthout | News Analysis


Defence Ministers working session at the NATO summit in Wales. (Photo: NATO Summit Wales 2014)

In the propaganda campaign being waged by the NATO countries and the government of Ukraine against Russia and in support of Kiev's war in the east of the country, the events in Crimea of the past nine months occupy a pivotal place.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NATO might be upsetting the entire military and political balance of Europe by continuing to push eastward today in Ukraine, but the drumbeat of Western government and media propaganda claims the heightened tensions of this past year are all Russia's fault. Russia's supposed annexation of Crimea in March is the example par excellence that a new "Russian aggression," harkening back to Soviet Union times, is afoot. It must be stopped at all costs before Ukraine falls, too.

In this made-up world, Kiev's murderous, illegal war against its own population disappears. The war is an "ongoing conflict" between "armed groups" in which the only actors with a purpose, it seems, are "pro-Russian separatists" and their purported backer in Moscow. An emerging subset of the theme of Crimea as victim of annexation is that it's also a land of disappearing human rights.

Given the very high stakes involved in all of this for the future of Europe, if not the world, it is time to step back and examine what is actually taking place in Crimea.

Fact From Fiction

Full story:
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/27891-the-propaganda-war-over-crimea-s-break-from-ukraine

[Little Tich]

18. Perhaps Ukraine should've kept their nukes - the Russian broke their promise not to invade Ukraine

in exchange for their removal.

I'm pretty sure that Russia wouldn't have invaded a nuclear armed Ukraine.

Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances
Source: Wikipedia[/b

The Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances refers to three identical political agreements signed in Budapest, Hungary on 5 December 1994, providing security assurances by its signatories relating to Belarus', Kazakhstan's and Ukraine's accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons. The Memorandum was originally signed by three nuclear powers, the Russian Federation, the United States of America, and the United Kingdom. China and France gave somewhat weaker individual assurances in separate documents.

The memorandum included security assurances against threats or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan.

Read more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances

[Duckhunter935]

26. Yep

[Bigmack]

19. Gee.....what do you think the US reaction would be to

Russia conducting military exercises in Mexico....Nicaragua....El Salvador, Canada, etc. etc. etc. What in the bloody hell is NATO doing conducting exercises in Eastern Europe, AND trying to enroll countries next door to Russia? Huh? Ms Bigmack

[Nye Bevan]

25. Are you OK with countries near Russia deciding to join NATO?

And are you OK with NATO doing military exercises in NATO countries?

[transatlantica]

29. This Russian Putin critic says Russia should have had a word to say

While he corrects the record that a not-NATO east expansion was a condition in the negiotiations for the German reunification - it was not - he says that it was kind of promised afterwards:

The decision for the U.S. and its allies to expand NATO into the east was decisively made in 1993. I called this a big mistake from the very beginning. It was definitely a violation of the spirit of the statements and assurances made to us in 1990. With regards to Germany, they were legally enshrined and are being observed.

http://rbth.com/international/2014/10/16/mikhail_gorbachev_i_am_against_all_walls_40673.html

It was ok that Poland asked to join NATO; but it was not ok from NATO - according to Gorbachev - to bypass Russia in this sensible question.

[Nye Bevan]

32. Wait..... Russia should have a say in whether Poland gets to join NATO? (nt)

[transatlantica]

34. ask Gorbachev, not me

again here's what he said, maybe you overlooked it:

The decision for the U.S. and its allies to expand NATO into the east was decisively made in 1993. I called this a big mistake from the very beginning. It was definitely a violation of the spirit of the statements and assurances made to us in 1990. With regards to Germany, they were legally enshrined and are being observed.

[hack89]

27. Hard to imagine countries that were occupied by the Soviet Union

wanting to join a military alliance to ensure it doesn't happen again. Crazy thinking.

[NuclearDem]

47. Because Eastern European countries are members of NATO.

And many of those countries were until very recently occupied and in some cases nearly exterminated by Russia.

[bemildred]

28. Germany's Steinmeier favours gradual phasing-out of Russia sanctions

This is what I heard, "at least six months", "we will never accept Crimea", etc.

The European Union should gradually phase out sanctions imposed against Russia over the Ukraine crisis if there is substantial progress in the peace process, German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier was quoted on Sunday as saying.

His comments reflect divisions within Germany's ruling right-left coalition over policy towards Russia. Steinmeier's Social Democrats (SPD) back a more conciliatory stance towards Moscow than Chancellor Angela Merkel's conservative bloc.

Merkel has repeatedly said that sanctions imposed against Russia can only be lifted once the peace agreement to end the conflict in Ukraine is fully implemented, not only partially.

Steinmeier struck a different tone. "Sanctions are not an end in themselves. They should rather give incentives for a change in behaviour," he told the RedaktionsNetzwerk Deutschland, a network of local newspapers.

http://in.reuters.com/article/ukraine-crisis-germany-steinmeier-idINKCN0Z50DF

[transatlantica]

30. First reactions in Germany

A MP of the CDU, the other government coalition party, has criticized him.

However, this is just yapping of a backbencher. I don't see FWS resigning, neither personal nor by email.

The problem with Merkel is you never know what she thinks and where she stands. So I have to admit that it might be that he surprised her with the move. But it's also possible that she gave him her OK.

[JackRiddler]

39. There is zero chance he will resign over this.

Unless Merkel decides to destroy her own government, for no reason whatsoever. People don't seem to get that Germany is governed by a multi-party coalition, and Steinmeier is a leader of one of the parties. Of course, "people" don't even know how the U.S. system works, so why should they know Germany?

Steinmeier is of course speaking for reason as well as German interest and doing Merkel a big favor by showing domestic opposition to the NATO insanity, giving her room to maneuver against the neocon deathwish -- whether or not she coordinated with him on this statement.

[Sunlei]

31. always wondered out of the countries decimated financially by nazis, Germany managed to snap back

I guess part of it was Germany wasn't in ruins, many businesses including German banks stayed in business and flourished through WW2 & after.

I think todays Germany should support much more countries like Poland and Ukraine who never really recovered from the mass extermination of millions of people.

The looting of all their businesses and taking of their entire banks by nazi germany. Even after WW2 was over Russia further looted much infrastructure(entire factories) and stored nazi loot from those countries.

[transatlantica]

33. History is not your biggest passion, is it?

Germany killed way more Russians than Poles. The Ukrainians were complicit with the Germans when they ambushed Russia.

Germany has paid for his crimes - if fair and enough, is debatable. Especially the Greeks have all reason to be discontented. But this has been negotiated and settled for a long time.

Germany wasn't in ruins? Every major city was destroyed by aerial bombs, there was no bank, no infrastructure that could have "stayed in business". Germany was divided into four segments and ruled by the four winner countries for a couple of years.

[uhnope]

46. (West) Germany had the influence of US and UK & western tradition to help it transition post WW2

from a defeated and destroyed Nazi Germany to one of the better governments & democracies on the planet.

Poland and Ukraine had Stalin, whom some consider worse than Hitler, and the Soviet dictatorship to further destroy their countries and cultures for about 50 years. It's hard to come back from that. Though some countries have done well, like Czechia and Slovenia.

[cstanleytech]

36. I think Steinmeier is right and to ease tensions I propose the US close all its bases in Germany.

[transatlantica]

37. Well Ramstein would be a good start

- the demonstrators last week wouldn't mind

[GP6971]

48. Not going to happen

It would have a serious impact on the German economy.

[transatlantica]

49. Meanwhile in Germany...

Steinmeier's remark has caused quite a great stir and is discussed in the news everywhere.

Next year are elections in Germany. I believe now that the SPD which is rapidly going down in the polls has detected the Russia theme as a playground to attract voters. Because the majority of the people - as opposed to the political establishment - wants the sanctions lifted and be friends with Russia.