NYC subway riders fight back at groping, grinding, lewd acts

[Judi Lynn]

Source: Associated Press

NYC subway riders fight back at groping, grinding, lewd acts

Michael Balsamo, Associated Press

Updated 11:46 pm, Wednesday, June 22, 2016

NEW YORK (AP) — A young woman boards a crowded subway in New York City. As more passengers pile in, a man inches closer and starts grinding his groin against her. The woman knows what's happening but the train is so packed she can't get away.

It's a situation police say plays out hundreds of times a year beneath the nation's largest city. With subway ridership approaching all-time highs, averaging 5.6 million daily riders, reports of sex crimes are also rising, up nearly 57 percent.

But police say that doesn't necessarily mean there's more groping, grinding and lewd acts going on. They instead credit an orchestrated campaign by the Metropolitan Transportation Authority to encourage riders to report sex crimes, including posters and automated announcements in subway stations, a web page for victims to document encounters and a new smartphone app that makes it easier to send in pictures of perpetrators in the act.

Chief Joseph Fox, who commands the New York Police Department's Transit Bureau, said the campaign was bolstered by more plainsclothes officers, many of them women, looking specifically for subway lewdness, and more assurances that complaints will be taken seriously.

Read more: http://www.chron.com/news/crime/article/NYC-subway-riders-fight-back-at-groping-8320055.php

[Lunabell]

1. While all well and good,

you can't arrest yourself out of rape culture in this country.

[Craig234]

2. I think this is great

That they are stepping up enforcement against offenders on this.

But I think this 'rape culture' meme is a real danger of being overplayed.

There is something to it and we need to improve that.

One rape is way too many. There are some terrible people. But the vast majority are very against any 'rape culture'.

We need to do more against the few who do wrong, not against the many who don't.

I'm strongly against the perpetrators on the subway - however consider the math just in that article. It says this happens 'hundreds of times a year'. Those times are terrible. But that's out of over a billion riders.

Maybe police understated the frequency. But it doesn't minimize the times it does happen to remind the frequency of the issue and that it's a relatively small number of criminals more than a culture problem - even though the culture should do some things better.

[He loved Big Brother]

5. No offense, but you are not a woman

Last edited Sat Jun 25, 2016, 10:38 AM - Edit history (1)

If you were, the meaning of "rape culture" would probably fall into place before you even heard it explained. Nonetheless, you seem to be unaware of what it entails. You honestly have no clue what men do to women when they think nobody is watching. Women can't complain about it every single incident, because sanity, but you disbelieving there exists a rape culture is a luxury not afforded to most women. It's also part of a dangerous trend of automatically disbelieving women for no good reason.

Almost every woman and girl who has been outside, unaccompanied, has been sexually intruded upon in some way, at some point, by a man or boy. That not even hyperbole. Those guys then go home and play the roles of our fathers, brothers, boyfriends, whatever.

You don't need to believe, but know such disbelief is due to you being firmly ensconced in a comfortable reality where obliviousness is excused and forgiven. It is not even fathomable to you that the world is too fucking rapey toward wome, because you have the privilege of existing while male. Women and girls do not. Most men likely couldn't last as a woman for a week.

[Craig234]

9. I believe you

I'm pretty horrified by the things I've heard and the behavior you describe. We do need to do a lot more to change that culture where it exists. I rarely see it because as you say I'm a man but I've had glimpses of some major jerk behavior, and I do not like it.

[Quantess]

11. Once I walked in that part of town with my roommate / friend

and got the usual smacky-lip noise and "hey mama" or whatever it was, you know, the typical, daily greeting that I always got from the young hispanic males. This was a weekend evening and I'm pretty sure nobody was sober. I said "fuck off" or flipped him off, or something. Then he turned to my friend and threatened to kick HIS ass. We just kept walking.

When I told a (nice) boyfriend, years later, about my daily sexual harrassment in SF, and also that sexual harrassment was the worst as a teenager, he became irritated and defensive and told me I must be exaggerating or imagiining things. This ex-boyfriend would never himself be a sexual harrasser at all, and would be loathe to make unwanted disrespectful sexual comments, himself. He just didn't want to believe it.

Another thing men typically don't like to know, is that teenage girls get the worst sexual harrassment of any age group. The harrassers were sometimes teenage boys, but more often they were older males.

[Craig234]

24. I understand

It sounds terrible. On the one hand, I'd like to see more done to pressure those jerks to learn how to behave - education in part, punishment for more serious harassment.

What I hate to see it turn into is if women begin to 'blame all men' for those jerks - I see some comments suggesting that and I have to say it's sort of understandable. It's natural to feel that way.

I do some online gaming and try to tell people when I see inappropriate things said - but I've had to recognize there's no changing things like the word 'rape' being popular for winning a game, which might not exactly make the game much fun for a woman to see.

On the other side, I do not like to see the idea if a woman has this sort of bad behavior lead her to something like voting for Hillary over Bernie as a 'pick the woman over the man' sort of thing regardless of the political issues - unfortunately it seems some people do.

I'm all for educating and sensitizing more men that it's happening.

One program I like is the police departments who have created 'prostitution education programs' where men who try to hire prostitutes are taught how they are harming women, how prostitutes generally are abused and suffering.

When you get a guy to think about how bad it would be if he had to have a lot of sex with people he didn't want to all the time out of desperation with his safety in danger as well... ya.

[smirkymonkey]

38. +1000

[Quantess]

7. We know it's a minority of males who are the bad apples. We know. Thanks.

We also know that many men become extremely defensive about being informed that women have to deal with sexual harrassment, unwanted groping, etc. A lot of men who are themselves very respectful to women are also in denial and become defensive when they hear about what women go through.

You live in SF? That was where I experienced daily catcalling every I time I stepped out of my apartment. It was especially bad in that neighborhood since it's a high-prostitution area, and also, being a blonde in a hispanic neighborhood didn't make things easier.

[Craig234]

8. I'm sorry to hear that

I don't think I'm in denial, but I'm also listening - I'm very sorry to hear you went through that garbage.

My sister is a small blonde who used to live in the city - but it's overseas she found herself harassed most.

[Quantess]

12. I didn' say you particularly are in denial, but

you seem a little defensive, in that you want to remind us all that it is a minority of males who are the culprits. But I guess it doesn't hurt to add that disclaimer. I hear about a few women who have never known any decent men in their lives, and might believe that all men are like that.

[Craig234]

25. That's the difficulty in discussing issues

If there is a very bad serious, issue, and someone overstates it 10%, the right thing is to correct that but it's hard to not sound like you're trying to minimize the issue.

So, for example, I'm for increasing the minimum wage - but if I saw an advocate for that say 'it's worse than slavery was', I'd have to correct them, but it's hard to do that and not sound like I'm arguing against their problem.

I'm afraid you're right. I hate to hear that, and it's not easy to fix. In other words, I'm very much in favor of the cause that was espoused - that the meme rape culture describes - I'm just not wanting men to be too broadly painted.

[mercuryblues]

29. The thing is

This starts for females very young. I was still playing with dolls the first time I was harassed. By the time I was 14 I had a range of replies to respond with. By the time I was 20, I stopped noticing it.

The men doing the harassment were usually men, not boys, in groups and high 5ing each other. The comments were vile. Not cutesy like the term cat-calling implies. There were times where I was in fear for my safety, walking home from school. If a male has not learned by the time they are in their 20's to keep their hands to themselves and stop saying vile sexually explicit things to females of any age, then yes I am for the law stepping in.

Females have the right to be in public spaces without being verbally or physically assaulted. Men do not have the right to reach out and touch someone as they wish.

[Craig234]

33. I agree

When I'm discussing free speech, there's always an idea of speech you are allowed to say, but shouldn't.

An example I'll use is, walking down the street and telling everyone you think it 'ugly' your opinion.

There's not exactly a law against it, nor should there be, and they aren't legally entitled to use physical violence in response, but it's an issue that it's wrong to do.

Sometimes there are better responses - especially when they can have to pay a price, whether it's someone they're with not liking their behavior, or telling their employer and their being punished, but that's not usually available.

Maybe we should ask the NRA. They have a solution. Don't they argue that guns bring good manners?

I'm being facetious. Of course most of those guys acting like jerks had mothers, who apparently didn't raise them quite right...

(Of course I say that not to criticize the mothers - the fathers should just as much - but 'something to think about', this is not easy.).

I suspect the right thing is what the 'rape culture' meme is trying to do - I'd just prefer a different phrase for the meme about treating women right. It also seems it might be less effective if people dismiss it because 'those harassing comments aren't rape'.

[mercuryblues]

36. Rape culture

is a perfect phrase. Sorry you are not comfortable with it. But then again I wasn't comfortable when some random guy told me he wanted to rub his cock on my tits and his buddies laughed and joined in. I wasn't comfortable when some random guy tried to corner me, while grabbing at my chest. I wasn't comfortable when I was slapped on the ass at work, by some random guy. I wasn't comfortable when random guys walked up to me and demanded blow jobs. I wasn't comfortable when.....

It is rape culture. These comments men make towards women feeds into a rapists mentality that what they are doing is ok. Because women are nothing but sex objects. Not human beings. Chances are when you have groups of men behaving that way, one of them is actually a rapist. They do not live in a vacuum. They have friends and families. As with the Stamford rapist that was literally caught in the act and only got 6 months. ...rape culture.

[Craig234]

40. Come on.

That sort of argument is needlessly hostile.

What if instead of "Rape Culture" the meme was "All men are jerky pigs" and I said I didn't think that was a good pick.

You could make the same argument.

'You might not be comfortable with 'all men are jerky pigs', but I wasn't comfortable when some guy...'

They don't equate. They're trying to put me in the role as if I'm defending the jerk who did that to you, and that's hostile and wrong.

[mercuryblues]

44. I am sorry

that you feel my live experiences are "needlessly hostile" towards you. I found them degrading and threatening towards me. You are refusing to accept that women live this almost daily. But after I read your other post I realized why you are offended by the term rape culture. You have participated in it. Instead of ostracizing the guy who you, yourself have called a predator, you allowed him inside your social circle and access to the women in your life. Ask those women how comfortable they felt when someone you called a predator was hitting on them. As I said, these type of men do not exist in a vacuum.

I did not tell you those stories, and trust me there are many more, for you to defend the random guys who said those things. Instead to let you know this is a real problem for every single female. It starts at a very young age and does not stop. Cat-calling implies that 1. women like it. 2. that it is benign. It is anything but. It is threatening, hostile, vulgar, demeaning and more. It makes women uncomfortable in public places. It makes young girls afraid, just walking home from school. It needs to stop.

Consider this. How this type of harassment affects females in the long term. If starting at 12/13 their 1st outside experiences with men are like that.

[Craig234]

45. You're doing it again.

I do not think and did not say your experiences are hostile.

I said that you using them as an attack on me is.

I am not "refusing to accept that women live this almost daily."

What does it take you out of your scrtipted attack mode using some speech to attack me not based on what I say? Watch:

I accept that women live this almost daily.

Is that clear enough?

And to clarify your comments to the story I told: I did NOT allow him either in 'the circle' - it was a group open to the public I did not get to say he wasn't allowed in, but I did warn people about him - and I did not allow him, as you claim, 'access to women in my life'.

I'm sorry, but I tried to have a conversation, and it doesn't seem like that's an option.

[Craig234]

41. People are complicated

This isn't so much directed to you, but just going to tell a 1980's somewhat related story about how people are complicated.

There was a woman who was in a social group, and there was a party, and I don't recall how but I without having had any intention of doing so, ended up driving her to where I lived to sleep for the night.

Before I knew it, she was in my bedroom unclothed, as I recall sort of passing out drunk. And that was that. Meaning, no, no sex.

The next morning, more sober, she thanked me for taking care of her and not taking advantage of the situation.

She shouldn't need to say anything but ok.

But things are strange.

There was a guy in the same group who was basically a predator. He'd befriend the men if he thought he could use them to get more women. He was a sort of stereotypical 'Greek' type guy with a beard, big gold chain and half-unbuttoned shirt at the party.

His communications were basically always in the first few seconds asking for any 'leads' of women to try to sleep with.

There was also a transsexual women, unbeknownst to him, in the group (but really not hard to tell), and he got her to agree to go for a ride in his Corvette (did I say stereotypical), and he pulled over and tried to be forceful sexually.

She did not want it, but eventually - she was not changed biologically - he got a handful, and lost his mind. I was told he spent all night screaming about it in fury how he had been misled to not be warned a transsexual woman could be in the group.

No one had any sympathy, of course - he really should have been arrested for the assault.

Anyway, the woman I mentioned at the beginning 'fell for' this guy - but he seemed unable to have any interest in continuing relations with any woman - just always on the prowl for 'fresh meat'.

Very sadly, as nearly as I could tell, she was so persistent that eventually he 'allowed' her to be around him (I forget if she lived with him) but my impression was that she had to be a recruiter of other women for him - and she could participate.

She seemed to fall into heavy drinking with this. I'm not sure where it led but it didn't seem to be going anywhere good.

There's no other point - just a story about some people, and yes, there are predators, and people are complicated. The story of the Stanford rape just reminded me of the 'passed out woman' situation.

[Brickbat]

18. What I'm hearing you say is that because men grind on women hundreds of times a year in the

subway alone we shouldn't use the words "rape culture." Is that accurate?

[Craig234]

26. Not really

No, that's not what I was trying to say - it was more just being clear that 'rape culture' is a real and important issue but that the whole country shouldn't be implied to support 'rape culture'.

[Android3.14]

3. While a single incident is unacceptable and worthy of prosecution

With 2 Billion riders (5.6 million X 365 days) each year and "hundreds" of incidents, the chance of it happening to a rider is less than 0.0000005.

Combine that with a victim calling out the perpetrator and fellow riders responding, and this rare problem, as the writer describes it in the article (crowded subway), will usually solve itself.

[geek tragedy]

4. Those are the REPORTED cases

Many, many more go unreported.

[phylny]

6. Back in the 80s

I was riding the subway in the summer. It was very crowded and I was wearing a thin dress.

Someone, couldn't tell who, insinuated his fingers right on top of my clitoris through my dress, slip, and underwear. I shifted away, but said nothing.

Why? I don't know. In my mind, I'd be like the other women who would yell out, "Whoever had his hand on my better move it NOW!" but I didn't.

That was my unreported groping.

[geek tragedy]

10. what's changed isn't that it's happening more or less, it's that it's taken this long

for society to acknowledge it's happening.

my wife--in her frumpy suit (she's a practicing lawyer) has had men grind their erections on her, multiple times.

no reports

I would be surprised if 1/10 got reported as there's usually no way to identify, let alone apprehend the perp

[KK9]

17. Back when I worked in the city...

And used to ride the subway every day, groping and rubbing body parts happend on a regular basis. It CAN be hard for a women to make a public stink about something sexual like that, it's embarassing, especially when you are young.

So, rather than yelling "Get your hand off my ass!" or "Stop rubbing your dick on me!", I'd yell, "Get your hand out of my purse!". The latter would make everyone in the subway turn around and stare and often, another man would come over to scare him off, which he might not have if I'd yelled about being groped.

[FlaGranny]

13. It happened to me on a bus

when I was about 20. Bus was too crowded with standing room only to get away and I was too afraid and shy to do anything. I very much wanted to turn around and punch him in the face. I was afraid to create a scene. I have never forgotten it to this day (it was 56 years ago).

Some men are totally gross. Once when I was out at a club, in my 20s with my girlfriend, I was asked to dance, and the idiot proceeded to introduce himself by telling me how good he was in bed.

Thankfully there are many more good men and I had the good fortune to marry two of the best (different times of course - the first one passed away and I'm still with the second).

[Android3.14]

14. I'm sorry to hear that

I recall an incident in high school in which I was walking through the crowded halls between classes following another male student. he grabbed a girl's butt, and let go and kept walking. She turned around, and I was standing there in shock at what I'd just seen. Smack! She slapped the bejeebers out of me.

On reflection, you are probably right. It happens much more often than people report.

[FlaGranny]

15. Oh, you poor thing!

That must have been so humiliating - just what a high school student needs, right?

[Brickbat]

19. Why are people so interested in minimizing this issue?

[Android3.14]

20. The real question should be, what are the chances this will happen to me when I ride the subway?

Another important question is, what is the number of offenses that go unreported?

Based only on the reports, it is more likely lightning will strike a woman within a year than someone would grope her on the subway, or that she would hit the jackpot with the lottery.

Without those numbers, we can only base our concern on the data in the article.

Rather than people "interested" in minimizing the issue, the issue appears so rare that there are many other hazards that are more worthy of concern.

They are not interested in minimizing the issue, but uninterested in inflating the issue.

[Brickbat]

21. "The real question should be, what are the chances this will happen to me when I ride the subway?"

Because other people saying it happens to them isn't enough?

[Android3.14]

22. Exactly. What are some actual statistics?

I'm glad you understand that real data is important with issues like this. It's one of the reasons I am unafraid of terrorist.
Here is an interesting article with some stats, but not estimates for unreported occurrences.

They do mention that victims report only 1-in-20 rapes. I'd even wager the ratio is wider for gropings, but by how much. If statisticians can make estimates with rapes, then they can make estimates with gropings.

[Brickbat]

23. I find it telling that you keep bringing this back to yourself and your own experience.

As with terrorism, if you can get some kind of data, you can decide whether it's an issue for you.

[Android3.14]

28. I'm unsure what you are talking about now

Most people would rather worry about things that are actual threats rather than astronomically unlikely ones. I'm more than happy to see this as a serious issue if there were some data to indicate it was a serious issue.

So far, the data indicates it is unlikely to occur, but the actual level of offenses may be much higher than reported offences.

[LanternWaste]

30. I imagine many people concern themselves with many things, great and small

I imagine many people concern themselves with many things, great and small. The human condition allows us to both perceive and contrast the macro and the micro.

[Android3.14]

34. ..

Oh yes.

[Democat]

43. The media maximizes issues for more clicks

Those who don't agree with every clickbait article are "minimizing"?

Do you feel the same about people "minimizing" the threat of terrorism from immigration and other issues that the media promotes?

[vkkv]

16. George Carlin said this about men and women...

"Here’s all you have to know about men and women: women are crazy, men are stupid. And the main reason women are crazy is that men are stupid."

[JudyM]

37. Great quote. Nt

[lunatica]

27. I had that happen to me more than once

Women get pretty adept at avoiding being grinded on unless it's truly impossible to budge due to overcrowded subways and buses. It's infuriating to be continually groped when in public.

Now that I'm much older I don't get any attention like that. It's very nice not to be constantly watching for some asshole to avoid.

[Archae]

31. It's far worse in Japan.

Both the crowding on public transport and the groping.

Some dork in Japan even made a video game with the objective of groping women on the train!

[romanic]

32. Why not just have an officer on board?

I know I know, police state and all that, but I'm sure having just one cop on board could curb perverts and other scumbags from doing things on the subway.

[Ilsa]

39. Time to carry a TigerLady!

Guys might stop their intentional grinding if they get hurt once.

[IgelJames4]

42. Good to hear

This is why I really don't like taking the subways. Too many creepy people.

[leftyladyfrommo]

46. I'm not sure it's just a few creepy guys.

I read one time that60 percent of men that were interviewed anonymously said they would have raped someone if they thought they could have gotten away with it.

I am single and I can't tell you how many "nice" married guys have shown up at my front door looking for some action.

[maxsolomon]

47. this article, i presume

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2015/01/11/3610327/college-men-forcible-sex-study/

that's only 33%, though! only half as many of us are monsters as you thought. cold comfort, I'd wager.