Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search
 

Purveyor

(29,876 posts)
Sat Jun 25, 2016, 05:17 PM Jun 2016

David Lammy MP Urges Parliament To Ignore EU Referendum Result: 'We Can Stop This Madness'

Source: Independent UK

'The referendum was was an advisory, non-binding referendum'

Will Worley @willrworley 2 hours ago

In a statement on his Twitter feed, the MP for Tottenham and former Higher Education and Skills Minister said: "Wake up. We do not have to do this.

"We can stop this madness and bring this nightmare to an end through a vote in Parliament. Our sovereign Parliament needs to now vote on whether we should exit the EU.

"The referendum was was an advisory, non-binding referendum. The Leave campaign's platform has already unravelled and some people wish they hadn't voted to Leave.

"Parliament now needs to decide whether we should go forward with Brexit, and there should be a vote in Parliament next week.

Read more: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-result-latest-david-lammy-mp-eu-referendum-result-parliament-twitter-statement-stop-this-a7102931.html



EU referendum: petition for vote re-run passes 2.4 million as David Lammy MP calls for parliament to block Brexit

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/25/eu-referendum-brexit-prime-minister-tory-mps-boris-johnson-leade/
27 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
David Lammy MP Urges Parliament To Ignore EU Referendum Result: 'We Can Stop This Madness' (Original Post) Purveyor Jun 2016 OP
They've really stepped in it, haven't they? The Velveteen Ocelot Jun 2016 #1
Given that the pro-brexit side has publicly admitted that their campaign was based on lies... Salviati Jun 2016 #2
Wonder if we will be able to start a petition after our elections based Purveyor Jun 2016 #3
That happened in Charlotte. A referendum took place an pols ignored the result Jack from Charlotte Jun 2016 #4
If MP Lammy's constituency voted to Remain, then that's a safe position for him to take DavidDvorkin Jun 2016 #5
Or heroism. They can save their country. Laser102 Jun 2016 #6
There are examples of heroic behavior by elected politicians DavidDvorkin Jun 2016 #15
It did. Tottenham, London. mwooldri Jun 2016 #18
Britain's parliamentary system has one major advantage over our system of government. Johnyawl Jun 2016 #7
I don't think Labour could survive an election right now Sen. Walter Sobchak Jun 2016 #10
Used to be easier. mwooldri Jun 2016 #17
definition of democracy, sometimes, NotHardly Jun 2016 #8
I've been opposed to referendums and ballot initiatives for some time frazzled Jun 2016 #9
I agree. BlueMTexpat Jun 2016 #13
Thank you for the input from abroad frazzled Jun 2016 #16
As much as I dislike both the Super Delegate and Electoral College, libdem4life Jun 2016 #11
Susan Powter claimed she could stop the madness. BobTheSubgenius Jun 2016 #12
Just like the Republicans here, whip up the populist anger to gain power ToxMarz Jun 2016 #14
Yeah they should just ingnore it. fasttense Jun 2016 #19
Christ. I REALLY wish people who clearly have no fucking clue what they're talking about would STFU. Spider Jerusalem Jun 2016 #20
UK, Finland scolded by EU over budget deficits AntiBank Jun 2016 #23
Ignoring the referendum result would be suicidal for the left and empower the right in the long run. pampango Jun 2016 #21
Enough of this running scared of "the right". Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #22
the percentage you call practically 50/50 is almost exactly the same number Obama beat Romney by AntiBank Jun 2016 #24
So what? Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #25
I am not convinced Article 50 will even be used. AntiBank Jun 2016 #26
You may be right. Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #27

Salviati

(6,008 posts)
2. Given that the pro-brexit side has publicly admitted that their campaign was based on lies...
Sat Jun 25, 2016, 05:29 PM
Jun 2016

it seems like they have plenty of political cover for ignoring the referendum.

 

Purveyor

(29,876 posts)
3. Wonder if we will be able to start a petition after our elections based
Sat Jun 25, 2016, 05:36 PM
Jun 2016

on lies and have the result overturned?

Jack from Charlotte

(2,367 posts)
4. That happened in Charlotte. A referendum took place an pols ignored the result
Sat Jun 25, 2016, 05:39 PM
Jun 2016

It was over funding a new $400 million basketball arena. Charlotte already had a not too old, larger arena. Pat McCrorry, the current Republic Gov who is leading the crotch inspections for bathroom entry was then the mayor. He and a city council women lead the attempt to get the new arena funded with tax payer money. Referendum failed by 60% against. They just ignored the result and did it anyway. City councilwoman got whacked for reelection. Mayor Ditz went on to be the lead recruiter for crotch checkers in in order to pee indoors in North Cackalacky.

MP's should just ignore the Brexit. It's clearly best for the country. Have a campaign based on voters being tricked and fooled. Also, get some concessions from other European countries. There'll be some political fallout but.... do what's best for the country.

DavidDvorkin

(19,473 posts)
5. If MP Lammy's constituency voted to Remain, then that's a safe position for him to take
Sat Jun 25, 2016, 05:47 PM
Jun 2016

Other MPs might be a bit more wary. For many of them, ignoring the referendum would be a ticket to political retirement.

DavidDvorkin

(19,473 posts)
15. There are examples of heroic behavior by elected politicians
Sat Jun 25, 2016, 08:36 PM
Jun 2016

Who sacrificed their careers for the better good, but they are rare.

mwooldri

(10,303 posts)
18. It did. Tottenham, London.
Sun Jun 26, 2016, 01:22 AM
Jun 2016

London voted Remain, as did my bit of Surrey.

The other way that is possible is the judicial route, and declare the referendum unconstitutional. One possible route is the fact that British citizens who have been out of the country for 15 years or more had no say, yet their citizenship was effectively diminished.

Johnyawl

(3,205 posts)
7. Britain's parliamentary system has one major advantage over our system of government.
Sat Jun 25, 2016, 06:55 PM
Jun 2016

They can call an election at anytime. And Cameron, who's already promised to resign should do just that. Every member of parliament would then have to take a stand on Brexit, and run on that. "leave" and "remain", which ever side won the most seats would than have the mandate.

 

Sen. Walter Sobchak

(8,692 posts)
10. I don't think Labour could survive an election right now
Sat Jun 25, 2016, 07:04 PM
Jun 2016

A British election before Jeremy Corbyn is sent packing would see the Labour Party wiped out. That wouldn't nessisarily be helpful to the remain cause.

mwooldri

(10,303 posts)
17. Used to be easier.
Sun Jun 26, 2016, 01:18 AM
Jun 2016

Part of the 2010 Lib-Dem/Con government was fixed term parliaments of 5 years, but needs a 2/3rds majority for vote of no confidence in order to get a new election.

Not impossible. But not as easy... if Labour felt so inclined they could pull it off. The SNP would join in.

NotHardly

(1,062 posts)
8. definition of democracy, sometimes,
Sat Jun 25, 2016, 07:00 PM
Jun 2016

... sometimes involves having to be responsible for stupid politician tricks (like purposefully misleading the public) and living with the results. Sometimes it helps to know the definition of democracy and representation before proceeding. Lastly, the grinding despair of poverty and near poverty, lack of jobs, the 1% taking all but the thin porridge served to underclass, dismantling of social services, and lack of voice or being hear by legislators is what drove the votes, not the ageist remarks and nationalism being touted... pity no one is really listening and pity they continue to hammer on their "talking points" on both sides of the argument. Sure easier than reality.

frazzled

(18,402 posts)
9. I've been opposed to referendums and ballot initiatives for some time
Sat Jun 25, 2016, 07:04 PM
Jun 2016

I know I'll be charged with elitism, but I've seen so many wretched laws passed in states in our own country based on referendums that I think they should never be binding, and that elected legislators need to stand up when their collective judgment differs from the momentary judgment of the public--a public that is often confused or underinformed about the details and implications of legislation.

Here in the US, we live in a representative democracy, not a direct democracy, according to the Constitution. Many issues are deeply complex, and the potential repercussions of a piece of legislation often very uncertain. It's hard enough to keep our elected representatives, with their staffs of researchers and their open debates, informed enough to make decisions that go beyond standard party lines.

I think it's okay to hold referenda as a kind of poll of public opinion, but we should leave actual legislating to the legislators we have (rightly or wrongly) elected. In most cases, they will listen to the people's will. But on occasion, the people is an ass, and they get it really wrong. There are a lot of truly crappy laws on the books that originated in ballot initiatives, and it is sometimes very hard to get rid of those laws.

BlueMTexpat

(15,368 posts)
13. I agree.
Sat Jun 25, 2016, 08:18 PM
Jun 2016

I reside in Switzerland, which is one of the few actual direct democracies in the world. Because it is a small country, referenda occur quite often and many, if not most, issues are decided by them. So long as they deal with internal issues, they generally work out fairly well and more voters are fair-minded than not, although not always (note the comparatively recent anti-minarets issue and the vote to restrict movement which goes against Switzerland's Schengen obligations and is wreaking some mild havoc).

I note also that in Switzerland, there is a very strong and prosperous middle class and comparatively few individuals live in abject poverty. Part of this is due to Switzerland's very strict immigration policies, of course. It is practically impossible for a non-Swiss, non-EU member to get a job here or to purchase real estate here. I came here as an international civil servant, i.e., with diplomatic status, and after fulfilling the residence requirement, was allowed to retire here. When I speak of difficulties, I speak for ordinary persons, of course. The very wealthy have their own set of rules everywhere. But that strict immigration policy and the country's general economic prosperity mean that we don't have as many of the internal economic disparities and inequities that one sees elsewhere on the Continent.

But when a referendum deals with or can have an adverse effect on a country's external relationships, it can be a disaster for a country - just as has been the case with the Brexit vote. That is a case where representatives should use their heads and be wiser than the populace. Switzerland is still dealing with the fallout from the movement restriction vote - but working that one out is duck soup compared to what the UK's exit from the EU will be. In a referendum, too many people, especially those who are suffering economically or with low information, can be manipulated by unscrupulous politicians and other rabble rousers into fearing the "other" and unfairly scapegoating so that they vote against their own interests. Once such results are on the books, as you say, it is VERY difficult to get rid of them.

The UK has gotten itself into a major pickle and it will have to get itself out of that pickle one way or another. It may be that there IS no way out at all - most certainly no way out that will happen in the near future. Most of us non-Brits will recover quite nicely after the initial market shock and most of us will continue living our lives without feeling any fallout from this. But the UK and its citizens will have a very rough road ahead.

frazzled

(18,402 posts)
16. Thank you for the input from abroad
Sat Jun 25, 2016, 11:55 PM
Jun 2016

I didn't quite realize the nature of direct democracy in Switzerland. (The most time I've spent in the country is several hours in the Zurich airport.)

It's going to be very interesting to watch what happens to both the UK and the EU over the next several years. Even as we ponder our own future back here at home. We are living in troubling times: it almost feels like the first half of the twentieth century again.

 

libdem4life

(13,877 posts)
11. As much as I dislike both the Super Delegate and Electoral College,
Sat Jun 25, 2016, 07:39 PM
Jun 2016

one must admit that it's a bit too easy to get a group of folks riled up and charging to the Referendum or Proposition poll.

But if it's a good idea, it should be able to pass other tests, time itself being one of them, as well.

BobTheSubgenius

(11,563 posts)
12. Susan Powter claimed she could stop the madness.
Sat Jun 25, 2016, 07:52 PM
Jun 2016

As far as I can tell, things are not only still mad, but more so than before. Madness will always have its day.

ToxMarz

(2,166 posts)
14. Just like the Republicans here, whip up the populist anger to gain power
Sat Jun 25, 2016, 08:33 PM
Jun 2016

and then just enact their own agenda. When it bites them in the ass act like dictators and try to ignore the results and continue their own agenda. Overthrow Brexit, and Never Trump are two sides of the same coin.

 

fasttense

(17,301 posts)
19. Yeah they should just ingnore it.
Sun Jun 26, 2016, 08:45 AM
Jun 2016

Just like Greece did. And it worked out so well for Greece.

Austerity forever.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
20. Christ. I REALLY wish people who clearly have no fucking clue what they're talking about would STFU.
Sun Jun 26, 2016, 09:18 AM
Jun 2016

You ARE aware that the UK is not on the Euro and that any austerity in the UK is the result of the Tory government and has nothing whatever to do with the EU, right? Right?

 

AntiBank

(1,339 posts)
23. UK, Finland scolded by EU over budget deficits
Mon Jun 27, 2016, 08:54 AM
Jun 2016
http://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/news/uk-finland-scolded-by-eu-over-budget-deficits/


The UK was given a new deadline to deal with its excessive deficit procedure (EDP) and Finland was warned it could be placed in EDP under the stability and growth pact today (13 May). The news came as part of the Commission’s country-specific economic policy recommendations for 2015 and 2016.

The UK budget will remain under Brussels oversight for a further two years after it breached deficit targets. Despite widespread spending cuts Britain failed to reduce its deficit to below 3% – the maximum allowed under EU law.

“These recommendations are not about Brussels lecturing governments,” said EU Commissioner for Economic Affairs Pierre Moscovici. “They are about encouraging national efforts to deliver the jobs and growth we collectively need.” Since the global financial crisis in 2008 the EU has increased its oversight powers to stop a repeat of the sovereign debt crisis that engulfed the continent.

Sanctions for non-eurozone Britain limited

The EU cannot impose fines or sanctions on the UK because it is not a member of the eurozone. The announcement will however be politically embarrassing for Prime Minister David Cameron, who won last week’s general election on a platform of controlling the public finances to ensure sustainable growth.

The move will also provide fodder for the right wing of Cameron’s Conservative party who want the UK to leave the European Union and will see this as unwelcome oversight from Brussels.


snip


this next article shows that IF the UK actually had to do (it has an exemption) what the EU orders all Eurozone countries to do, austerity would be even WORSE


The U.K. Has Been Violating the EU’s Economic Rules for Years

http://blogs.wsj.com/brussels/2014/06/11/the-u-k-has-been-violating-the-eus-economic-rules-for-years/


The EU’s Stability and Growth Pact is the centerpiece of the bloc’s economic rulebook. It requires EU governments to hold their deficits to under 3% of annual gross domestic product. If deficits exceed that threshold, governments must prepare plans to bring their deficits under 3% in the “medium term” – an undefined period that the EU loves since it is neither too soon nor too late. The European Commission, the EU’s executive arm, has the power to propose sanctions on governments that don’t comply.

There’s a footnote here. The U.K. has an exemption from a section of the pact that would allow Brussels to impose sanctions. Nevertheless, it has agreed to “endeavor to avoid an excessive government deficit.” It’s kind of an obligation, but completely toothless. So has Mr. Cameron’s government been endeavoring as required by the rules?

Not really, the commission said last week when it released its annual recommendations for the EU’s 28 governments. Way back in December 2009, the European Council agreed that the U.K. should bring its deficit under 3% of GDP by the 2014-2015 fiscal year. The U.K. deficit this year is forecast at 5% of GDP.


Is the failure due to events beyond its control? Again, no, says the commission:

….based on the Commission forecast, the (corrected) change in the structural balance over 2010-2014 falls short by on average 0.6% of GDP per year compared to the requirement and is projected to fall short in 2015 as well…. [A]dditional measures are needed to ensure compliance with the recommendation under the excessive deficit procedure.

Consider that the commission estimates that by the end of this year, the U.K. will have cut its “structural balance” – the actual budget balance adjusted for the strength of the economy and one-off measures – by 4.1 percentage points since the end of 2009. To comply with the EU rules, the commission said another 3 percentage points of cuts would have been needed. That’s a lot of extra austerity for the sake of “endeavoring to avoid an excessive government deficit.”


The EU made the same complaint to the U.K. last year and the year before that. But because of its exemption from sanctions, the U.K. can disregard this part of the Stability and Growth Pact without consequences.

There’s some irony in this. Mr. Cameron has been roundly criticized for adopting austerity policies even when the government had the ability to borrow at record low levels. And he’s argued that Brussels has too much control over decisions that are best left to national governments. Yet despite the Stability and Growth Pact, the U.K. appears to have maintained most of its independence on fiscal policy – in this case, probably to the benefit of employment and GDP.




snip



even with Tory austerity (again LESS than what the EU wants), the UK is still running the 2nd highest deficit in the EU, imagine how bad the austerity would be if the EU had actual operational control of the structural deficit








here is the EU dominated IMF getting involved years ago in pushing regressive VAT increases that will hurt minorities, the poor, and children the most


VAT should be imposed on food and children's clothes, says IMF


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/7726644/VAT-should-be-imposed-on-food-and-childrens-clothes-says-IMF.html

In an unusual intervention, the IMF said one of the best ways for the coalition Government to raise money and repair the public finances would be to remove the zero-rate that excluded a number of goods from VAT.

The recommendation came amid suspicion that the Government would also have to raise the level of the sales tax from 17.5 per cent to 20 per cent if it was to afford the tax pledges it made in its agreement earlier this week.

Although the IMF's suggestion, published in a comprehensive survey of public finances around the world, was less eye-catching than raising the headline rate, it would potentially have a greater impact on the price of goods, and on families' living standards.


snip




and finally here is the EU demanding an EXTRA £2.1 billion from the UK for FY 2015 , on top of its £19.2 billion gross dues (£14.35 billion after rebate) it already paid



Britain will have to pay extra €2.1bn into EU budget by December

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/23/uk-european-commission-eu-budget-contribution


Britain has been told it must pay an extra €2.1bn (£1.7bn) into the European Union budget by the end of next month because the UK economy is doing better relative to other European economies. The demand is certain to be used against David Cameron by the growing camp who want the UK to quit the EU.

British and European commission officials confirmed that the Treasury had been told last week that budget contribution calculations based on gross national income (GNI) adjustments carried out by Eurostat, the EU statistics agency, had exposed a huge discrepancy between what Britain had been asked to contribute and what it should be paying, because of the UK’s recovery.

The bombshell, first reported by the Financial Times, was dropped into the middle of an EU summit in Brussels where Cameron and 27 other leaders were mired in tough negotiations over climate-change policy and attempts to agree big reductions in greenhouse gas emissions by 2030.

A Downing Street source said: “It’s not acceptable to just change the fees for previous years and demand them back at a moment’s notice. The European commission was not expecting this money and does not need this money and we will work with other countries similarly affected to do all we can to challenge this.”

snip

pampango

(24,692 posts)
21. Ignoring the referendum result would be suicidal for the left and empower the right in the long run.
Sun Jun 26, 2016, 09:39 AM
Jun 2016

Imagine the uproar from the right, if the "ELITES ignored the referendum voted on by the common people". It would be a right wing bonanza in the long run.

A Conservative prime minister and government granted the referendum and right wing populists went with it and won democratically. Those who supported Remain need to accept that the right won the referendum and move on expeditiously to implement it.

Denzil_DC

(7,233 posts)
22. Enough of this running scared of "the right".
Sun Jun 26, 2016, 11:49 PM
Jun 2016

It was practically a 50/50 vote - 4 percent, and quite a number of those who voted Leave seem to have done so on the assumption the proposition wouldn't win. Hell, Johnson and Gove seem to have been campaigning on the assumption they wouldn't win!

If it had gone for remain by precisely the same proportion, then Farage and his cohort were all lined up to say it wasn't decisive, still a live issue, wouldn't go away etc. etc. In fact, Farage said that very thing the day before the vote.

So what's the big fear?

MPs losing their seats? We shouldn't be hostage to their cowardice. Leave voters likely wouldn't ever vote for those who're running scared even if they did a 180-degree pivot. It might even mobilize Remain voters to support them.

Street violence? If they break the law in that way, try them and lock them up. Turn out the riot police, and troops if necessary, like they did with the miners' strike or would do if it was leftist-inspired unrest.

Lammy's 100% right.

 

AntiBank

(1,339 posts)
24. the percentage you call practically 50/50 is almost exactly the same number Obama beat Romney by
Mon Jun 27, 2016, 09:02 AM
Jun 2016

Denzil_DC

(7,233 posts)
25. So what?
Mon Jun 27, 2016, 09:11 AM
Jun 2016

I'm not hostage to your crazy electoral system. We have our own crazy electoral system. This. Was. Not. An. Election. It would have more validity if it was.

Can you change your constitution on a 50/50 popular vote? The change that's just been paved the way for over here so glibly is as far-reaching as that.

 

AntiBank

(1,339 posts)
26. I am not convinced Article 50 will even be used.
Mon Jun 27, 2016, 09:36 AM
Jun 2016

There is massive dodgy shite from almost every angle, pro leave, pro remain, the EU itself, the shambolic clusterfucks that are the Tory and Labour parties, the 7 other nations now threatening to leave the EU, the possibility of some in between status for the UK etc etc.

I am taking a sit back and wait approach.

Latest Discussions»Latest Breaking News»David Lammy MP Urges Parl...