Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

uawchild

(2,208 posts)
Fri Jul 22, 2016, 05:34 PM Jul 2016

Poland votes that WWII massacre by Ukraine was ‘genocide’

Source: EurActiv

Poland’s right-wing dominated parliament on Friday (22 July) recognised as “genocide” a massacre of 100,000 Poles by Ukrainian nationalists seven decades ago, in a move that quickly drew criticism from Kyiv.

“The victims of the crime committed in the 1940s by Ukrainian nationalists were not duly commemorated, and the mass murder was not defined as genocide in accordance with the historical truth,” said a resolution adopted by 432 lawmakers in the 460-seat parliament.

Ukraine has refused to recognise the crime as genocide and its President Petro Poroshenko on Friday to expressed his “regret” over the Polish move, warning it could be used against his crisis-hit country.

Between 1942 and 1945, members of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) hacked Polish victims to death and drowned women, children and the elderly in wells in the Volhynia region of what is now northwest Ukraine. The UPA’s main objective was to win Ukraine’s independence by ousting Nazi and later Soviet occupiers and to clear Poles from territories that were historically Ukrainian land.

Read more: http://www.euractiv.com/section/europe-s-east/news/poland-votes-that-wwii-massacre-by-ukraine-was-genocide/



"The killing provoked bloody reprisals by Polish partisans grouped in the anti-Nazi and anti-Soviet Home Army (AK). They killed 20,000 Ukrainians. Friday’s resolution also recognises these crimes saying: “Nor can one dismiss or downplay acts of Polish revenge on Ukrainian villages, during which civilian populations also perished.”

It also “expresses parliament’s respect for and gratitude to Ukrainians who risked their lives to save Poles”.

Poroshenko, meanwhile, invoking the teachings of late Polish-born pope John Paul II, called on people to “forgive and ask for forgiveness” while cooperating in order to “determine all the facts of this tragic page of our joint history”. "


Hmmm. Poroshenko about got it right, even if the remark “determine all the facts of this tragic page of our joint history” comes across as not a 100% acceptance of the facts in hand.

But he did own up about "this tragic page", as he put it, of the two countries joint history.

It's important to acknowledge the past, especially of the dark periods in any nation's history, but it's not reasonable to infer that the present Ukrainian government bears any responsibility for the events of almost 80 years ago.
10 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies

uawchild

(2,208 posts)
1. Poland is the most ethnically homogeneous nation in Europe
Fri Jul 22, 2016, 05:36 PM
Jul 2016

"Ethnically, Poland is a very homogeneous country, with 96.7% of population being Polish."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Poland

This is in large part due to the ethnic cleansing and mass murders that took place during the WWII era.
Germany murdered the vast majority of Poland's large Jewish Population.
Poles and Ukrainians ethnic cleansed each other during WWII, as the OP describes.
The Soviets ethnically cleansed the German population in what is now Poland.


Also in regards to non-citizens, Poland is very homogeneous there to:

"Poland has the lowest proportion of foreigners in the European Union, with foreign citizens making up just 0.3 percent of the population."
http://www.thenews.pl/1/10/Artykul/233898,Poland-most-homogeneous-in-EU

This bit falls more on the recent and current Polish governments. For example:

Poland refuses to take a single refugee because of 'security' fears
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/poland-refuses-to-take-a-single-refugee-because-of-security-fears-a7020076.html

Igel

(35,191 posts)
4. Moreover, a large number of ethnic Poles were relocated to the western edge.
Fri Jul 22, 2016, 06:24 PM
Jul 2016

After the Germans that had been there were kicked out.

Upshot? The Soviets made sure the eastern border was "clean" by claiming the mixed Polish/Relorusian/etc. territory in the eastern 100 miles of the country for Belorus'. Those ragged ethnic borders that population movements and intermarriage/assimilation produce were "rectified." Much like France's were, by the same means.

And the same was done for the western border. Who knows what's up on the southern border, but after WWII a number of E. European countries engaged in serious assimilation. Lots of Slovaks in Hungary were forcibly assimilated (while the more tolerant Czechs/Slovaks didn't require the Magyar in S. Slovakia to do the same, to their chagrin). The Poles also did a bit of assimilating, since the southern border with Slezsko and Cechy, two of the three part of the current Czech Republic, didn't have a clear ethnic boundary. The dialects there are clearly Polish or Czech, but then again the languages aren't *that* different. (To the point that after being around mono-lingual Czechs for a couple of months back in '94 or '95 I was merely annoyed that the Czech movie I thought I was watching on Los Angeles' foreign-language channel at the time wasn't as comprehensible as I'd hoped. I thought it was in Czech, but it turned out to be Polish. Between Russian and Czech ... the war movie wasn't gibberish.)

Nobody wants to immigrate to Poland. Well, I might, but it's not on the top of my list. I've spent a month there, nice enough place, even Lodz.

Otherwise I have no problem with an indigenous population remaining almost entirely indigenous (taking into account all the population shifts, that is). I think that people have a complaint about it because they don't like the domestic politics.

uawchild

(2,208 posts)
7. The dialects there are clearly Polish or Czech, but then again the languages aren't *that* different
Fri Jul 22, 2016, 06:42 PM
Jul 2016

True. And they used to be even less different regionally before WWI, when the Austro-Hungarian Empire controlled a sizable Slavic populated area of Poles, Ukrainians, Czechs, Slovaks and Carpatho-Rusyns.

Before mass communication and wide spread publishing, there was less of a standard form of all these languages spoken, especially in the less developed eastern regions.

Slovaks, Ukrainians and Poles and the Rusyn too all spoke dialects of their respective languages that were more similar to their linguistic neighbors.

BigDemVoter

(4,149 posts)
2. I wonder how they classify POLISH massacres of Jews during the war?
Fri Jul 22, 2016, 06:19 PM
Jul 2016

Or the slaughter that occurred AFTER the war when survivors from death camps were killed when they came home & tried to reclaim their stolen property.

uawchild

(2,208 posts)
5. The points you make are absolutely true
Fri Jul 22, 2016, 06:25 PM
Jul 2016

The anti-Jewish violence in Poland from 1944–1946 refers to a series of violent incidents in Poland that immediately followed the end of World War II in Europe and influenced the postwar history of the Jews as well as Polish-Jewish relations. The exact number of Jewish victims is a subject of debate with 327 documented cases,[1] and the range, estimated by different writers, from 1,000[2] to 2,000 (an undocumented minority view).[3] Jews constituted between 2% and 3% of the total number of victims of postwar violence in the country,[3][4][5] including the Polish Jews who managed to survive the Holocaust on territories of Poland annexed by the Soviet Union.[6] The incidents ranged from individual attacks to pogroms.

The resentment towards returning Jews among some local Poles included concerns that they would reclaim their property.[1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Jewish_violence_in_Poland,_1944–46

uawchild

(2,208 posts)
3. Lets just head off the inevitable...
Fri Jul 22, 2016, 06:21 PM
Jul 2016

Of course, someone might ask "uawchild, you are a known Russian apologist, possibly a paid troll living in St. Petersburg, WHY don't you hold RUSSIA to the same standards of facing up to ITS past, you useful idiot and fellow traveler!!111"

OK, fair question. lol

I do think Russia should own up to the dark periods of its history also. There's been a start of doing so during the Gorbachev and Yeltsen periods, but it's slowed down under Putin as he tries to pump up Russian patriotism.

Still though, even under Putin, Russia has started owning up to its past.

"Russian parliament admits guilt over Polish massacre
Symbolic acknowledgment of culpability over Katyn murders in 1940 signals Russia's willingness to face up to its past

In a symbolic admission of guilt, Russia's parliament has declared that Joseph Stalin ordered his secret police to execute 22,000 Polish army officers and civilians in 1940, in one of the greatest mass murders of the 20th century.

Today's acknowledgment of Stalin's personal culpability over the Katyn massacre comes amid a cautious thaw between Moscow and Warsaw, whose recent relations have been thorny at best. It was also seen as a sign that Russia may finally be ready for muted self-scrutiny over its totalitarian past.

Mikhail Gorbachev admitted in 1990 that the NKVD was to blame for the massacre, after a half-century of the Soviets blaming it on Nazi troops. However, there has never been a formal statement which implicates the Soviet leadership in such explicit terms.

Officials in Warsaw greeted the declaration positively. "It is a good step, an important sign," Poland's speaker of parliament, Grzegorz Schetyna, told reporters. It would ensure a "better atmosphere" for Russian president Dmitry Medvedev's visit to Warsaw next week, he added."

and this:

"In the wake of the crash, Russia's prime minister, Vladimir Putin, made unequivocal statements about Soviet responsibility for the Katyn massacre and urged reconciliation. "
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/nov/26/russian-parliament-guilt-katyn-massacre

uawchild

(2,208 posts)
8. Absolutely correct.
Fri Jul 22, 2016, 07:10 PM
Jul 2016

But your two links don't also address the Latvian Waffen SS:


Latvian SS-Legion marching next to Dome Cathedral in Riga on Latvian Independence Day, 1943

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_Legion

or the Siege of Leningrad:

The Siege of Leningrad, 1941 - 1944. It was horrific. The siege of Leningrad (the modern-day St. Petersburg) lasted almost two and one-half years and cost the lives of an estimated 1,000,000 city residents. It began on September 8, 1941 when German troops completed their encirclement of the city.



Map of Army Group North's advance into the USSR in 1941.

And of course there is prior HISTORY before ALL of this. Its absolutely true that the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union committed horrors. And its true that WWI, the Russian Civil War and WWII saw horrors committed against Soviet and Russians.

11,000,000 Soviet soldiers died fight the Nazis and allied nations and 7,000,000 to 20,000,000 million Soviet citizens died during WWII.

The problem with discussing history is agreeing WHEN to start the discussion and acknowledging nothing happened in a vacuum.

But then I have been accused of reflexively defending Russia against all reason, so what do I know.

Here, let me add some context, I mean excuse making "whataboutism", to this discussion -- of course Russia isn't the only country with blood on its hands that has not apologized sufficiently.

There is certainly enough past horrors for MANY countries to own up to.

For example, I don't think we here in the US have adequately addressed the past horrors of slavery and the genocide of the Native Americans. Why isn't there a memorial museum on the Capitol Mall for either of those atrocities?

Thanks for the opportunity to discuss this matter.

 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
9. I'm very well aware of the Latvian Legion.
Fri Jul 22, 2016, 07:24 PM
Jul 2016

My grandfather was conscripted into it when the Nazis came through, and then nearly died at Leningrad--in fact, only he and his cousin survived out of their whole company. As thanks for his service, the Nazis sent him back to Berlin to work in slave conditions in an Opel factory, where a truck rolled off the line and ran over his leg, resulting in a limp he walked with for the rest of his life. A lot of the partisans were conscripted because the Wehrmacht needed cannon fodder against the USSR, and many joined willingly because of an "enemy of my enemy" line of thought. Some joined because they agreed with the Nazi worldview, sure, but it's not entirely fair to portray the LL as full of Nazi sympathizers and antisemites.

11,000,000 Soviet soldiers died fight the Nazis and allied nations and 7,000,000 to 20,000,000 million Soviet citizens died during WWII.


Of course. I don't deny for a second that the USSR suffered during the war, nor do I believe the millions of civilians killed deserved it somehow, but admittedly, a lot of the carnage came as a result of Stalin's leadership. Mass conscription, "not one step back", purging the most experienced officers in the Red Army, and his own unpreparedness for the Nazi invasion caused a lot of the devastation.

Thanks for the opportunity to discuss this matter.


Of course. For whatever it's worth, I don't believe you're some paid troll holed up in Moscow or anything like that. Believe me, we've had some of those here, and you're not one of them. Just someone with a different opinion.

uawchild

(2,208 posts)
10. Thanks for a thoughtful balanced reply.
Fri Jul 22, 2016, 07:31 PM
Jul 2016

I totally agree about the horrors of Stalin and I appreciate you sharing the personal history, it adds a lot of depth to the discussion.

Latest Discussions»Latest Breaking News»Poland votes that WWII ma...