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alp227

(32,016 posts)
Tue Jul 3, 2012, 04:32 PM Jul 2012

David Cameron 'prepared to halt immigration of Greeks into UK'

Source: The Guardian

David Cameron is prepared to override Britain's historic obligations under EU treaties and impose stringent border controls that would block Greek citizens from entering the United Kingdom, if Greece is forced out of the single currency.

The prime minister told MPs that ministers have examined legal powers that would allow Britain to deprive Greek citizens of their right to free movement across the EU, if the eurozone crisis leads to "stresses and strains".

In an appearance before senior MPs on the cross-party House of Commons liaison committee, the prime minister confirmed that ministers have drawn up contingency plans for "all sorts of different eventualities".

The worst-case scenario is understood to cover a Greek exit from the euro, which could trigger a near-collapse of the Greek economy and the flight of hundreds of thousands of its citizens who are currently entitled to settle in any EU country.

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jul/03/david-cameron-immigration-greece-uk



Mitt Romney's advisors: "Quick! How do you say 'keep the Mexicans out' in dog whistle?"
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David Cameron 'prepared to halt immigration of Greeks into UK' (Original Post) alp227 Jul 2012 OP
Politicians...and words... MindMover Jul 2012 #1
Since when Boxcar Willie Jul 2012 #2
It's nothing more than red meat to the xenophobe right-wingers (but I repeat myself) in Britain. 2ndAmForComputers Jul 2012 #3
If the UK gov., its financial houses, other businesses and citizens hold Euro denominated assets amandabeech Jul 2012 #4
The UK isn't in the Schengen zone, but I don't see how that would matter muriel_volestrangler Jul 2012 #6
The value of the assets wouldn't change dipsydoodle Jul 2012 #8
I wouldn't count on getting a full Euro's worth of drachmas. amandabeech Jul 2012 #16
The exchange rate wouldn't be a function of debts owed dipsydoodle Jul 2012 #17
All I can say is good luck. amandabeech Jul 2012 #18
I'm English in the UK dipsydoodle Jul 2012 #19
Good for you. Hope it lasts. amandabeech Jul 2012 #20
The UK is part of the European Union, which allows free immigration within EU countries rox63 Jul 2012 #5
I wondered about that too... n/t ljm2002 Jul 2012 #13
The cheekiness of those Brits. They had no trouble stealing coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #7
If they'd been left in Greece, they'd have dissolved by now ... Nihil Jul 2012 #9
I don't get how they would have "joined the priceless coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #14
Thieves, fences and unscrupulous buyers ... Nihil Jul 2012 #23
You are displaying your great ignorance on this issue. JackRiddler Jul 2012 #21
As are you Nihil Jul 2012 #22
What's with the Alice in Wonderland response? JackRiddler Jul 2012 #25
You responded to a post that wasn't addressed to you and accuse me of a non-sequitur? Nihil Jul 2012 #26
Non sequitur means the insertion of a sudden, absurd irrelevance. JackRiddler Jul 2012 #27
According to wiki they purchased those 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #10
Way to gloss over the controversy regarding whether the antiquities coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #11
I guess I don't see the connection between the two 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #12
Britain plans to block Greek emigres when those emigres are coalition_unwilling Jul 2012 #15
Cameron launches campaign of racism against Greeks T_i_B Jul 2012 #24
I don't get it because you didn't include a sarcasm symbol. JackRiddler Jul 2012 #28
It says something T_i_B Jul 2012 #29

2ndAmForComputers

(3,527 posts)
3. It's nothing more than red meat to the xenophobe right-wingers (but I repeat myself) in Britain.
Tue Jul 3, 2012, 05:42 PM
Jul 2012

As long as Greece, or any other country, stays a member of the EU, Euro or not, there's no way in hell he can do that. It's like a US Presidential candidate saying he'll "ban abortion."

Typical dumb RW chest-thumping and nothing more.

 

amandabeech

(9,893 posts)
4. If the UK gov., its financial houses, other businesses and citizens hold Euro denominated assets
Tue Jul 3, 2012, 06:27 PM
Jul 2012

issued by Greek institutions, it is unclear what the value of those assets will be when/if Greece goes back to the drachma. Straitening out the value of those Greek issued assets will be a subject of intense negotiation.

Additionally, when Greece reverts, unemployment is expected to become even higher than it is, if that's possible, at least in the short run.

The Brits are in the European Community (EC) for the free trade, but they did not sign up for the Euro. Sweden and Denmark did the same thing. Norway did not join the EC and uses kronor (or kroner). Norway is a part of the old EFTA (European Free Trade Agreement), which predated the EC. Switzerland is in the same position as Norway.

I'm not sure if the UK joined the Schengen agreement which allows free travel within the EC and EFTA countries. If they're not part of Schengen, then they may be on firmer ground. Nonetheless, I would expect that other European countries would try to keep the number of Greek refugees to a small number, in part because the European unemployment rate is something above 11% (don't ask me how that number is computed).

muriel_volestrangler

(101,306 posts)
6. The UK isn't in the Schengen zone, but I don't see how that would matter
Tue Jul 3, 2012, 06:48 PM
Jul 2012

Not being in the zone means Britain can insist on checking passports for people coming in, or doing customs inspections. But this would be about the right to come to live in the UK and look for work - which all EU citizens have, apart from those from recently joined countries (Britain was one of the few countries that didn't put restrictions on the 10 accession countries when the EU enlarged from 15 to 25; lots did come in then, and there was enough public objection that the UK did put restrictions on Bulgaria and Romania when they later joined). Greece has been a member for years; I don't know where Cameron thinks he can pull rules allowing him to restrict the rights of Greeks to live in the UK; this seems to be him saying he can declare some unilateral 'emergency' and ignore whatever EU rules he wants to.

dipsydoodle

(42,239 posts)
8. The value of the assets wouldn't change
Tue Jul 3, 2012, 07:05 PM
Jul 2012

Debts owed in Euros would remain payable in Euros : it would just take more Drachmas to make those repayments.

The UK isn't a member of the Schengen agreement which allows movement by the population of member countries across the borders of like members. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area. That is why for example we, in the UK, need our passports to go to France.

The figure of 11.1% is an average number across the EU. That is biased by the likes of Spain for example. In June Spain reduced a bit anyway : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18686210

Part of the issue in Greece is that they used loans to grossly inflated the number of public sector employees to help overcome unemployment in the private sector. There were however downsides in doing so which have now become apparent.

The one to watch now is Cyprus who may well the first to leave not just the Euro but the EU too.

 

amandabeech

(9,893 posts)
16. I wouldn't count on getting a full Euro's worth of drachmas.
Wed Jul 4, 2012, 02:07 PM
Jul 2012

From what I've read and heard, the exchange rate would be negotiated, and considering the fact that Greece and many of its businesses are broke, you are not likely to get 100% on the Euro whether Greece stays in or goes out.

If it isn't negotiated in the initial exchange rate, it will be by the Greek bankruptcy courts, or the Greek equivalent.

Euro denominated assets have already taken something of a hit against many other currencies against the dollar as a result of problems in the GIPCIs.

I've also heard that Greece used a lot of money to buy armaments from Germany to fight any Turkish incursion. I thought that I heard that the Greeks asked Germany to guarantee that the Germans would not let the Turks attack Greece, and Germany refused, hence the large arms purchase. Is that true? I also heard that the Israelis bought a German-built sub originally destined for Greece. True?

dipsydoodle

(42,239 posts)
17. The exchange rate wouldn't be a function of debts owed
Wed Jul 4, 2012, 03:11 PM
Jul 2012

and as such the € number value of debts, or $'s or £'s would remain intact repayable in whatever number of Drachmas.

Euros denominated assets are assets : not liabilities. They have fallen in value due to the fall in exchange rate between the € and the $ for example.

Greece is only exposed to Turkey by virtue of illegal immigrants - nothing else. As a member of NATO Greece would always be defended by NATO itself in the event of an attack by a non NATO country - that's the NATO deal. Their arms budget has reduced and may do even further,

Israel has got four German subs with which Greece was unassociated.

 

amandabeech

(9,893 posts)
18. All I can say is good luck.
Wed Jul 4, 2012, 04:08 PM
Jul 2012

Lots of the toxic assets are controlled by English law. In England, like the US, creditors, even bondholders, get dinged when debtors can't pay. In addition, I've noticed that the ECB and the ESEF (sp) can wiggle very, very well when they want to.

Turkey only left Greece in the 1820s. I used to have a Turkish housemate. She and her friends despised Greece. All Greeks I've met despised and distrusted Turkey. It's much worse than anything I've heard from other European peoples about their rivals and former conquerors.

I hope that I'm wrong and you're right.

rox63

(9,464 posts)
5. The UK is part of the European Union, which allows free immigration within EU countries
Tue Jul 3, 2012, 06:39 PM
Jul 2012

Not all EU countries use the Euro as their currency. The UK doesn't, they still use the pound.

 

coalition_unwilling

(14,180 posts)
7. The cheekiness of those Brits. They had no trouble stealing
Tue Jul 3, 2012, 06:59 PM
Jul 2012

numerous Grecian antiquities when it suited their purposes. (Elgin Marbles, anyone? )

 

Nihil

(13,508 posts)
9. If they'd been left in Greece, they'd have dissolved by now ...
Wed Jul 4, 2012, 07:02 AM
Jul 2012

... or joined the priceless artifacts that were looted from Iraq ...

But hey, don't let me stop your thread-jacking ...

 

coalition_unwilling

(14,180 posts)
14. I don't get how they would have "joined the priceless
Wed Jul 4, 2012, 10:57 AM
Jul 2012

artifacts that were looted from Iraq" since Greece is part of Europe and Iraq is part of the Middle East. But I guess war gives everyone a chance to refresh his or her knowledge of geography.

To call my observation about porous British borders when it comes to artifacts in a thread about strict border enforcement when it comes to people 'thread-jacking' stretches ingenuity to its limits. But hey don't let me get in the way of your poutrage ...

 

Nihil

(13,508 posts)
23. Thieves, fences and unscrupulous buyers ...
Thu Jul 5, 2012, 05:26 AM
Jul 2012

> I don't get how they would have "joined the priceless artifacts that were looted from Iraq"
> since Greece is part of Europe and Iraq is part of the Middle East.

You appear to be unable to understand that the items stolen from Iraq didn't end up
with rich scum for personal gain? Never mind, it will sink in eventually.


> But I guess war gives everyone a chance to refresh his or her knowledge of geography.

That's pretty rich considering how many of the people in favour of the illegal Iraq invasion
couldn't even find it on a map ...


> To call my observation about porous British borders when it comes to artifacts in a thread
> about strict border enforcement when it comes to people 'thread-jacking' stretches
> ingenuity to its limits.

Hardly ingenuity (unless you consider illegal artifacts somehow equivalent to illegal immigrants?).


> But hey don't let me get in the way of your poutrage ...

Hard to get in the way of something that didn't exist but have a nice day anyway.

 

JackRiddler

(24,979 posts)
21. You are displaying your great ignorance on this issue.
Wed Jul 4, 2012, 07:16 PM
Jul 2012

The British Museum has done grave damage to the "Elgin" marbles.

British damage to Elgin marbles 'irreparable'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/1999/nov/12/helenasmith


That you should couple this example of imperialist plunder with the rape of Iraq following the US war of aggression is... interesting.

 

Nihil

(13,508 posts)
22. As are you
Thu Jul 5, 2012, 04:47 AM
Jul 2012

The article you quote was in advance of the conference on the condition
of the Parthenon Marbles (December 1999).

"Most agreed that the cleaning was harsh, but a method popular at the time,
a method which the Greek Archaeological Service continued to use for
several decades, and which the Italians still consider acceptable."


(http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2004/jul/21/highereducation.parthenon)


> That you should couple this example of imperialist plunder with the
> rape of Iraq following the US war of aggression is... interesting.

They started from (arguably) the same point ("imperialist plunder&quot yet
the Elgin marbles were retained for public view (and have been ever since)
whereas the artifacts stolen by thieves working in Iraq were sold purely
for private gain.

Your willingness to overlook such a blinding difference is ... interesting.

 

JackRiddler

(24,979 posts)
25. What's with the Alice in Wonderland response?
Fri Jul 6, 2012, 02:24 PM
Jul 2012

I didn't bring up Iraq in this context - you did. Insane non-sequitur.

All you're showing is that the Greeks MIGHT HAVE damaged the statues in the same way as the British Museum DID. Did is key. This axes your idea that only Anglo whites can take care of precious artifacts that don't belong to them, as opposed to the inferior Greeks from whom they ripped these off. It's a racist canard and you should be ashamed of yourself.

 

Nihil

(13,508 posts)
26. You responded to a post that wasn't addressed to you and accuse me of a non-sequitur?
Sat Jul 7, 2012, 12:50 PM
Jul 2012

Do you even understand what the phrase means?

The comment about Iraq was perfectly in context yet you found it "... interesting"
yet when it was explained, you accuse me of an "insane non-sequitur" while you scuttle
away from the issue.

As for your disgusting accusation of racism, you are the one who introduced the phrases
"Anglo whites" & "inferior Greeks" and tried to redefine the situation into a racial attack
so I politely request that you stick your bigoted attitude where the sun doesn't shine
rather than smearing it in my direction.

Have a nice day pal.

 

JackRiddler

(24,979 posts)
27. Non sequitur means the insertion of a sudden, absurd irrelevance.
Sun Jul 8, 2012, 01:21 PM
Jul 2012

It describes your reaching to find apologetics for the Anglo plunder of what should rightly be in its original site. There is no justification for the British Museum keeping the sculptures that isn't based in an essentially racist myth of British superiority over the incompetent Greeks. So whether you like it or not, and whether you are aware of it or not, that's the racism that you are supporting. Simplistic "you too" reversals don't change that. Enjoy your Anglo supremacist lunch, "pal."

 

4th law of robotics

(6,801 posts)
10. According to wiki they purchased those
Wed Jul 4, 2012, 09:24 AM
Jul 2012

and it all happened over 200 years ago.

I think we can forgive them for not basing current policies on vague historical guilt that occurred well before any of their grandparents were born.

 

coalition_unwilling

(14,180 posts)
11. Way to gloss over the controversy regarding whether the antiquities
Wed Jul 4, 2012, 10:50 AM
Jul 2012

were properly removed from Greece. Even at the time, the British acquisition was quite controversial and it remains so to this day. But your rationale could be filed under the "How did our antiquities get to be on their land?" category. Whatever you've got to tell yourself.

I was being flip about British arrogance regarding its borders. I guess every non-straight post on DU now must be accompanied by or it's taken literally. Jeesh.

 

4th law of robotics

(6,801 posts)
12. I guess I don't see the connection between the two
Wed Jul 4, 2012, 10:52 AM
Jul 2012

even sarcastically.

Maybe if they were planning on pawning those today to get out of this debt crises . . . maybe.

 

coalition_unwilling

(14,180 posts)
15. Britain plans to block Greek emigres when those emigres are
Wed Jul 4, 2012, 11:00 AM
Jul 2012

people but didn't have that problem when the imports were antiquities.

In my book that qualifies as 'cheeky,' as the Brits would define it.

T_i_B

(14,737 posts)
24. Cameron launches campaign of racism against Greeks
Thu Jul 5, 2012, 07:22 AM
Jul 2012
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/cameron-launches-campaign-of-racism-against-greeks-2012070533117

THE coalition government has launched a £10m campaign encouraging everyone to hate the Greeks.

Prime minister David Cameron yesterday unveiled a billboard featuring a leering, kebab-chomping Greek caricature with a greasy moustache sodomising a goat while burning a wad of Euros. The TV ads bring back Harry Enfield’s Stavros, showing him entering a typical British family home drunk and heavily armed, emptying the piggy bank before urinating on a cat and then presenting the family with a huge bill.

Speaking at the British Museum, Mr Cameron said: “Don’t waste your racism on the hard-working Asian, the cool trainer-selling black or all those terribly clever Jews who run our media. Instead, direct your hatred at these lazy, sneering spongers who invented bumming and can’t even use a proper alphabet.”

The prime minister then sprayed ‘FUCK PLATO’ on the Elgin Marbles before posing with a pair of Heckler & Koch submachine guns, vowing to be on the frontline against the homosexual Greek invaders.

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