Gunfire blamed for more wildfires; target shooting limited (AND more!)

[underpants]

Source: USA Today

Target shooting or other firearms have started at least 21 wildfires in Utah and nearly a dozen in Idaho, the Associated Press says. Gunfire has also been cited for causing wildfires in Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico and Washington.

But as officials seek to limit outdoor shooting or ammunition, they are running up against a formidable force: the Second Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.

Utah Gov. Gary Herbert, a Republican, is taking heat for authorizing restrictions on target shooting on state and county land after it was determined that gunfire started one blaze. Officials were deciding today how to impose the politically charged ban in some areas because of the fire risk, the Salt Lake Tribune says. A decision is expected soon.

"This does not abridge anybody's constitutional right to bear firearms," Herbert said. "But we're facing a serious fire season, and the state forester has the authority to limit [shooting] in unincorporated areas."




Read more: http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2012/07/gunfire-blamed-for-some-wildfires-states-consider-limits/1

---

In a later statement to CBS News, the shooting group said, "We may concede that the improper acts of some shooters may have in fact caused fires, but to impugn all shooters and the sport is to demonize an activity that is safely done by tens of thousands of Utahns every week."








AND.......................

Trains, guns, lightning and cigarettes blamed for wildfires
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/07/03/12532922-trains-guns-lightning-and-cigarettes-blamed-for-wildfires?lite
Cigarette butts tossed in the dry grass and improperly extinguished campfires have started fires. But railroads, climate change and gun ranges have also noted as causes for wildfires

In Utah this summer, fire officials said shooters started 20 wildfires, according to the Salt Lake Tribune. The Christian Science Monitor reported that the Dump fire 40 miles south of Salt Lake City started when a bullet hit a rock, emitting a spark. Strong winds and dry vegetation allowed the fire to spread, resulting in 2,300 evacuation notices.

“Now is not a good time to take your gun outside and start shooting in cheat grass that’s tinder dry,” Utah Gov. Gary Herbert said, according to the Christian Science Monitor.

Target shooters also triggered a fire near Saratoga Springs that burned 5,600 acres, the Monitor reported.


Researchers examined tree rings and 34 years of western U.S. wildfire history and found a marked increase in large fires in the 1980s, Science Magazine reported in 2006. Wildfire seasons are longer than they were before; the researchers attribute that to increased spring and summer temperatures and an earlier spring snowmelt.

[TheCowsCameHome]

1. A little common sense in conditions like these would go a long way.

But maybe that's too much to ask.

Idiots.

[xchrom]

2. Du rec. Nt

[The Jungle 1]

3. Guns?

I am finding it a little hard to believe shooting guns is starting fires. Might be a good one for Myth Busters.

Hot lead or the actual explosion from the barrel?

Might have to go try and start a fire tomorrow. I live in Pa.

[Arctic Dave]

5. The guys from the TV program "Sons of Guns" did it while target shooting.

It was on TV for all to see.

[-..__...]

33. Was that the one with the M2 .50 cal Browning?

If so... they were using tracer rounds (and AP rounds as well).

Either one could have sparked a fire.

[Arctic Dave]

36. Good question. Don't remember.

I didn't think they were shooting anything that heavy but any type of tracer could easily start a fire.

[-..__...]

38. I never watched the show after the 1st season.

Heavily scripted (what reality show isn't), ridiculous creations, crazy claims, etc.

fast forward to 6:50...

&feature=relmfu

[Ian David]

52. In this clip, they were using tracers. n/t

[canonfodder]

44. just for show

It's a TV program. Nothing more.
Those type of programs are scripted from the word "go".
Please don't lend any credence to them.

[Arctic Dave]

54. I have shot many a weapon and the possibilty of a spark from impact is more then real.

Thank you for your concern.

[oldbanjo]

6. Some people shoot at propane tanks

to make explosions, check out some of the "you tube" videos.

[canonfodder]

45. When it goes bang....

...they deserve the chunk of steel that hits their face.

[bluedigger]

11. You ever have a hot shell casing go down your shirt?

It's totally plausible in the right field conditions, if unlikely as a widespread cause. Probably more likely from spent shell casings than bullets, which would have to spark off a rock or something, I think.

[rocktivity]

15. If a dropped cigarette butt can start a forest fire

why not a hot shell casing?

The fact that it COULD happen is reason enough to curb any unnecessary shooting.


rocktivity

[bluedigger]

16. That's exactly what I'm saying.

Just don't blame every fire on shooters. That's just silly.

[pipoman]

28. A cigarette is 800+ degrees, a shell casing is sub-350, I don't believe it could happen..

shell casings are hot to the touch. Hot to the touch is anything over about 140 degrees. They will burn sensitive skin which would be around 200 degrees more or less. They don't start fires or there would be a shit load more fires than there are. Millions of rounds are discarded into dry grasses every year by hunters alone..casings are a non-issue.

[pipoman]

32. Not likely at all

think how many hunters shoot in dry conditions. I would be surprised if a shell casing exceeded 300 degrees leaving the chamber of the gun. This is certainly hot enough to blister sensitive skin, but isn't near hot enough to ignite most anything..

[bluedigger]

34. I never said likely.

I said plausible under the right field conditions. Certainly unlikely under normal conditions.

In fact I specifically said "unlikely". Go argue with someone else.

[pipoman]

37. And I'm saying it isn't even plausable..

If there were even a single example or demonstration we would know about it..there isn't. If you come here expecting to write anything you wish to make up and nobody to challenge it, you're in the wrong place. Maybe iverglas's blog would be the right place?

[bluedigger]

40. Well, that's pretty antagonistic.

Maybe I am mistaken, but falsifying my simple statement to change the context to suit your own purposes isn't impressing anyone. Maybe you should go hang out at a more right wing site yourself, if that's the best you can do.

[pipoman]

50. Your post #11

states a fire from a casing is "totally plausible". I responded with post 32, which was neither antagonistic nor was it argumentative as you accuse in your post #34...in fact if anyone was antagonistic it was you in post #34, not to mention argumentative..I responded in post #37 with a statement and some snark in response to your false accusation. You respond in post #40 by accusing me of antagonism and saying I somehow "falsified your statement to change the context"..seems to me your (latest false) accusation of me "falsifying your statement to change the context", is based on your perception that "totally plausible" is vastly different than the word "likely". If this isn't why you are accusing me of "falsifying your statement to change the context" , please demonstrate what you are talking about.

Synonyms: credible, creditable, likely, believable, presumptive, probable

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/plausible

Yep, anyone can read this exchange and see who started the antagonistic, argumentative exchange it became..

[CreekDog]

46. Lead from the shell into the environment is plausible, however

in fact, unless you retrieve all your spent ammunition, you've added lead to the environment.

[pipoman]

47. Yep, however we were talking about casings starting fires..

[CreekDog]

48. since you were disputing that, i posted something you cannot

[pipoman]

51. Why would I want to?

and what makes you think I would? The poster stated something false to which I posted disagreement. Are you sure you read the whole exchange? Is the poster your friend and you are trying to deflect from his/her argumentative, antagonistic, and false responses to my posts?? Why do you feel the need?

[nolabear]

12. Take a bucket of water along, mkay?

[NickB79]

21. Tracer rounds will DEFINITELY set off a fire in dry grass

You can get tracers for all the popular calibers fairly cheaply, and a lot of people like shooting them for the fun factor of seeing your bullet streak through the air.

I have about 5000 military surplus 5.56mm tracer bullets that I bought dirt-cheap for reloading, and while they're SUPPOSED to be non-functional (either they're too old for the tracing compound to ignite or it was a bad batch or something) every now and then I will get one light up while shooting my assault rifle. I'd never think to shoot them in dry conditions, even if it was at a solid backstop.

[bluedigger]

4. Even when it isn't.

Regarding the cause of the fire, Spruell declined to pinpoint an exact source, but did say the fire was not caused by a stray bullet, as has been reported.

During a La Plata County commissioner meeting Monday, Butch Knowlton, director of La Plata County’s Office of Emergency Preparedness, said the fire was the direct result of a bullet ricochet. Spruell said Thursday there is no truth to the assertion that target practice was involved in the fire.

“It wasn’t started by a bullet,” Spruell said. “I will say that definitively.”

http://www.cortezjournal.com/article/20120629/NEWS01/706289993/0/News01/Sheriff:-Fire-caused-by-juvenile

[underpants]

8. Knowlton has to get elected....right?

[Kingofalldems]

7. Here they come

[underpants]

9. .

I have on a helmet!

[Plucketeer]

30. and a vest, I hope! nt

[Grassy Knoll]

10. yup, like flies to a dog's steamer bean. n/t

[bluedigger]

13. That reminds me of a joke.

This couple goes to Moody's Diner for Saturday dinner. The special, of course was baked beans and brown bread. They find a booth and see three large men sitting at the counter across from them. Sure enough, first one, then the next, and finally, the third let 'er rip. By this time the air is foul, and the gentlemen approaches the three men. "How dare you do that before my wife?", says he to the third man. "If I had known it was her turn, I would've let her go first!", he replies.

[Grassy Knoll]

14. HAAAAAA

[alp227]

17. I knew it! Guess who the Freepers are blaming for this?

Actual Free Republic post: "Interesting this meme comes just now, when F&F has failed to work as intended. They are desperate to disarm us."

Another: "If F&F had “succeeded” ...it would have explained The Won’s lack of preparation for the November contest...he hadn’t planned for there to be one!!!"

[onehandle]

18. Selfish gun culturists. nt

[4th law of robotics]

19. If it had been started by irresponsible campers

would you blame "selfish nature cultists"?

/I know I know: no camper has ever started a fire and let it burn out of control or forgotten to douse it properly. It *literally* cannot happen. But just hypothetically. . .

[bloomington-lib]

31. Having a campfire in these conditions would be very selfish.

There are plenty of ways to cook and keep warm without a campfire. After those reasons, the only thing left is decorative.

[4th law of robotics]

35. Right, but the blame would be placed on those who did it

not on all campers for having some bizarre and unhealthy fetish with being outdoors.

[LanternWaste]

55. I image we all take umbrage when our sacred cows are slighted.

Nor would it be valid to place blame on cigarette smokers flicking butts as some kind of unhealthy fetish either...


I image we all take umbrage when our sacred cows are slighted.

[kemah]

20. I say let it happen

Since most of these target shooters probably live in nearby neighborhood, they are putting their own and neighbor's houses on fire.

[underpants]

22. The other part of this that is not mentioned is SPRAWL

I don't wish that people lose their houses but when you keep expanding out into the fire country why is this not expected? Regardless of the cause.

[pipoman]

26. Like living on the banks of the Mississippi and being shocked when you are flooded..

[may3rd]

23. Most wildfires are started by careless smokers tossing lit cigarettes out car windows

heard many public service announcements on the radio about this very wildfire prevention subject

[slackmaster]

25. That's definitely true in Southern California. It really pisses me off when I see someone tossing...

...a smoldering butt.

[pipoman]

27. So.Cal. has pretty stiff penalties for even ashing out the window..

even if it's raining..

[Plucketeer]

29. It doesn't matter HOW a fire got started

if it was preventable with a bit of common sense (not so common these days) the causer deserves the blame - period.

[slackmaster]

24. Tracer ammunition is banned in California but I've still seen fires started by sparking

From steel-cased or steel-cored bullets. For those unfamiliar with the subject, steel bullet components are common in military surplus ammunition which is popular with target shooters because it is inexpensive.

But most fires in California are started by careless people with campfires, and by smokers who thoughtlessly toss lit cigarette butts.

The 1970 Laguna fire was started by a Native American girl's illegal campfire.

The 2003 Cedar Fire in San Diego County was started by a person who was lost, dehydrated, and under the influence of marijuana. He was disoriented, panicked, and set a fire that he hoped would bring assistance.

A couple of years after that, we had a very big fire started by a National Guard helicopter clipping a power line.

[PavePusher]

41. I think you meant "steel-jacketed", not "steel-cased".

[slackmaster]

49. Correct. Cases aren't an issue. Bullet jackets and cores are.

[Remmah2]

53. The problem may be in the choice of targets and the ammo.

I've seen some yahoos shooting into garbage dumps. Shooting up old appliances, the layers of sheet-metal. Even w/a FMJ copper-lead projectile or all lead projectile; the imparted energy could yield sparks as steel strikes steel or steel gets torn downrange. In garbage dumps you'll also find a variety of liquid petroleum accelerants in the form of spray paint cans, old engines (oil), cooking oil, propane cylinders; things not recycled or disposed of carefully. Additionally there is usually a load of dry kindling/tinder on hand as well in the form of old brush, leaves, discarded mattresses, cotton. All the wrong stuff is in the wrong location at the wrong time to complete the fire triangle (oxygen, heat, fuel).

A bullet glancing off a rock by itself does not encounter the conditions necessary to complete the fire triangle, hence blaming hunters (non-smoking) is a stretch of the imagination.

The solution is to shoot at a prepared and managed range. Clubs I've shot at restrict target types and have fire breaks planned into their design.

There's been a rash of articles vilifying gun owners over this issue. Yes it's possible, but it seems to be mass hysteria and political correctness. Hot dry air from politicians contributes to this hysteria and fires.

Common sense? Lots of it lacking out there. People abuse fireworks, matches, cigarettes, campfires and one another. Fireworks are not just limited to the 4th of July either.

Remember, only you can prevent forrest fires.

[primavera]

39. How about traditional tort law?

I may not be able to stop you from firing a gun in a high fire risk area, but, if you do and it starts a blaze, you are personally responsible for all of the damage it does? Perhaps if a few overzealous gun owners saw their homes and all of their possessions sold off on auction to provide restitution for the harm that they'd done, other firearm users might be a little more careful?

[PavePusher]

42. I'm good with that....

as long as it's applied to everything else as well.

[Fumesucker]

43. These are not big consumers of news for the most part I would think..

The point being that even if such torts make the news many of those who might possibly be influenced aren't going to hear about it anyway.

Not to m mention that the further away in time punishment is from a behavior the lower the deterrence value of any given punishment, lawsuits can a very long time to get through the courts.

[jpak]

56. Whew - what a relief - it's only gun nuts - not global warming

I feel better now...