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Fri Dec 23, 2016, 02:33 PM

U.S. declines to veto U.N. Security Council resolution for Israel to stop Jewish settlement activity

Source: Washington Post

The U.N. Security Council on Friday passed a resolution demanding Israel cease Jewish settlement activity on Palestinian territory in a unanimous vote that passed with the United States abstaining rather than using its veto as it has reliably done in the past.

The resolution said settlements are threatening the viability of the two-state solution, and urged Israelis and Palestinians to return to negotiations that lead to two independent nations.

This marked the first time in more than 36 years that the Security Council passed a resolution critical of settlements.

The United States abstention Friday reflected mounting frustration in the Obama administration over settlement growth that the United States considers an obstacle to peace.

Read more: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-declines-to-veto-un-security-council-resolution-for-israel-to-stop-jewish-settlement-activity/2016/12/23/cd4efe72-c939-11e6-bf4b-2c064d32a4bf_story.html



Just saw the WaPo breaking. This is a biggy for sure.

NY Times just put up a breaking too.

133 replies, 12885 views

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Reply U.S. declines to veto U.N. Security Council resolution for Israel to stop Jewish settlement activity (Original post)
BumRushDaShow Dec 2016 OP
elleng Dec 2016 #1
karynnj Dec 2016 #2
YvonneCa Dec 2016 #4
karynnj Dec 2016 #7
YvonneCa Dec 2016 #10
karynnj Dec 2016 #20
YvonneCa Dec 2016 #27
karynnj Dec 2016 #36
groundloop Dec 2016 #3
Spitfire of ATJ Dec 2016 #12
LiberalLovinLug Dec 2016 #5
SunSeeker Dec 2016 #6
greatauntoftriplets Dec 2016 #8
yeoman6987 Dec 2016 #16
greatauntoftriplets Dec 2016 #40
Calista241 Dec 2016 #131
yeoman6987 Dec 2016 #132
Rustyeye77 Dec 2016 #133
tritsofme Dec 2016 #9
Spitfire of ATJ Dec 2016 #13
geek tragedy Dec 2016 #18
TomCADem Dec 2016 #19
elmac Dec 2016 #43
Mosby Dec 2016 #84
oberliner Dec 2016 #111
TomCADem Dec 2016 #117
oberliner Dec 2016 #118
karynnj Dec 2016 #22
tritsofme Dec 2016 #26
TomCADem Dec 2016 #33
karynnj Dec 2016 #41
Mosby Dec 2016 #83
karynnj Dec 2016 #86
Mosby Dec 2016 #89
Grey Lemercier Dec 2016 #67
hibbing Dec 2016 #24
Lucky Luciano Dec 2016 #42
Crunchy Frog Dec 2016 #47
J_William_Ryan Dec 2016 #51
Grey Lemercier Dec 2016 #63
Lil Missy Dec 2016 #126
LittleBlue Dec 2016 #11
Spitfire of ATJ Dec 2016 #14
LittleBlue Dec 2016 #29
Spitfire of ATJ Dec 2016 #49
LittleBlue Dec 2016 #53
Spitfire of ATJ Dec 2016 #59
oberliner Dec 2016 #61
Alittleliberal Dec 2016 #127
Lokilooney Dec 2016 #55
Spitfire of ATJ Dec 2016 #62
Mosby Dec 2016 #85
Spitfire of ATJ Dec 2016 #88
Mosby Dec 2016 #90
Spitfire of ATJ Dec 2016 #92
Mosby Dec 2016 #94
Spitfire of ATJ Dec 2016 #99
oberliner Dec 2016 #107
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oberliner Dec 2016 #109
appal_jack Dec 2016 #122
geek tragedy Dec 2016 #17
oberliner Dec 2016 #23
geek tragedy Dec 2016 #25
oberliner Dec 2016 #28
geek tragedy Dec 2016 #30
oberliner Dec 2016 #34
geek tragedy Dec 2016 #39
oberliner Dec 2016 #44
MFM008 Dec 2016 #31
oberliner Dec 2016 #35
muriel_volestrangler Dec 2016 #76
oberliner Dec 2016 #77
LittleBlue Dec 2016 #32
geek tragedy Dec 2016 #38
LittleBlue Dec 2016 #54
geek tragedy Dec 2016 #60
LittleBlue Dec 2016 #101
geek tragedy Dec 2016 #103
LittleBlue Dec 2016 #106
geek tragedy Dec 2016 #112
oberliner Dec 2016 #113
LittleBlue Dec 2016 #115
geek tragedy Dec 2016 #120
Rustyeye77 Dec 2016 #46
LittleBlue Dec 2016 #56
Violet_Crumble Dec 2016 #65
Mosby Dec 2016 #87
LittleBlue Dec 2016 #95
geek tragedy Dec 2016 #125
geek tragedy Dec 2016 #66
LittleBlue Dec 2016 #96
geek tragedy Dec 2016 #98
LittleBlue Dec 2016 #102
geek tragedy Dec 2016 #104
LittleBlue Dec 2016 #108
geek tragedy Dec 2016 #110
TomCADem Dec 2016 #82
LittleBlue Dec 2016 #97
Violet_Crumble Dec 2016 #69
LittleBlue Dec 2016 #72
BumRushDaShow Dec 2016 #73
LittleBlue Dec 2016 #81
JI7 Dec 2016 #116
LittleBlue Dec 2016 #119
JI7 Dec 2016 #128
BumRushDaShow Dec 2016 #130
BumRushDaShow Dec 2016 #129
JI7 Dec 2016 #100
oberliner Dec 2016 #80
Mosby Dec 2016 #91
TheHak Dec 2016 #105
oberliner Dec 2016 #114
philosslayer Dec 2016 #15
Grey Lemercier Dec 2016 #68
still_one Dec 2016 #21
Cha Dec 2016 #50
ymetca Dec 2016 #37
elmac Dec 2016 #45
moondust Dec 2016 #48
karynnj Dec 2016 #93
moondust Dec 2016 #121
pandora nm Dec 2016 #52
question everything Dec 2016 #57
Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Dec 2016 #58
Grey Lemercier Dec 2016 #64
oberliner Dec 2016 #70
Dawson Leery Dec 2016 #71
Little Tich Dec 2016 #74
MBS Dec 2016 #75
B C Butler Dec 2016 #78
harun Dec 2016 #79
ucrdem Dec 2016 #124

Response to BumRushDaShow (Original post)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 02:41 PM

1. U.N. Resolution Condemning Israeli Settlements Is Approved; U.S. Abstains.

UNITED NATIONS — Defying extraordinary pressure from President-elect Donald J. Trump and furious lobbying by Israel, the Obama administration on Friday allowed the United Nations Security Council to adopt a contentious resolution that condemned Israeli settlement construction.

The administration’s decision not to veto the measure broke a longstanding American tradition of serving as Israel’s sturdiest diplomatic shield.

It came a day after Mr. Trump personally intervened to keep the draft measure, proposed by Egypt, from coming up for a vote on Thursday, as scheduled. Mr. Trump’s aides said he spoke to the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu. Both men also spoke to the Egyptian president, Abdel Fattah el-Sisi. Egypt postponed the vote.'>>>

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/23/world/middleeast/israel-settlements-un-vote.html?

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Original post)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 02:42 PM

2. Samantha Powers is giving an incredibly good speech explaining the US position

It is on CSPAN now and it is willing looking for and watching - I am sure it will be available on CSPAN or some US government site. She makes the case that it is well within the US historical position - even back to Reagan.

Editted to add that the French UN ambassador is speaking. France announced peace talks early next year, (They gave a date, but I can not remember for sure)

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Response to karynnj (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 02:51 PM

4. Watching...

...all of it.
US...and Obama/Kerry... will take a lot of RW flack for not vetoing, but this policy had been the administration's position from the beginning. Support our ally Israel while being an honest friend.

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Response to YvonneCa (Reply #4)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 02:59 PM

7. I agree and Kerry's Saban talk made a very strong case against the settlements

That talk importantly was given at the Saban forum, funded by Haim Saban, who is a very pro-Israel Democratic big money guy and that forum is attended by many US Jews - including many who agree with AIPAC.

What seems interesting is that the French may be moving into a position the US has traditionally has in peace talks. This is an area where HRC winning would have made things much easier.

Now strong speech from UK - again arguing for two state solution. He says that settlements are slowly eroding any chance of a two state solution -- sliding into a one state reality.

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Response to karynnj (Reply #7)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 03:10 PM

10. I saw the Saban talk. Kerry was very...

...clear about his and the US position and his discussions with Netanyahu on the settlements issue.
I think his...and Obamas...policy has clearly had an impact on the UN. This vote was nearly unanimous. Listening to the members' statements shows how much all have come around to their way of thinking. 👏👏👏

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Response to YvonneCa (Reply #10)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 03:31 PM

20. At one point Fabius, who was the French Foreign Minister, wanted to make a resolution

that was essentially based on Kerry's effort - this was after 2014. I would expect that the French peace efforts would use elements of Kerry's, Mitchell's and earlier proposals.

Trump will obviously simply back the most radical elements in Israel. His proposed ambassador - his bankruptcy lawyer for the Atlantic City bankruptcies where other investors took the loss and Trump took tax deductions for a loss he really did not suffer. His positions on Israel and most American Jews are disgusting. I hope he is rejected, but I assume Jared would simply find someone else as unqualified and despicable.

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Response to karynnj (Reply #20)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 03:48 PM

27. I agree on Trump. I'm still finding...

...hard to accept that this is where we are, as a country. 😥
Do you think that having this UNSC Tesolution in place will slow Trump down or hamper his efforts at insane foreign policy?

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Response to YvonneCa (Reply #27)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 04:00 PM

36. Like you, it is hard to accept that Trump reality

I have tried to figure out the impact on this and really am pretty uncertain.

I do know that Kerry - and likely earlier Americans - have managed to convince Europe and the world NOT to take various actions against Israel. Respect for Kerry led France in particular to moderate its reactions to things. I really doubt that Rex Tillerson will either gain that respect or that level of influence.

Yet, America is a strong nation and has a UN veto. I seriously doubt that Jared or anyone associated with Trump could have any impact furthering peace. It has always been said that even with Kerry and Mitchell that the US is too close to the US and is thus not the honest broker - even though Kerry worked hard to be accepted by both sides. Trump has no diplomatic skills and he equates that to doing real estate deals which frankly are not the same. In that case, both want a sale - the question is just the price and terms.

I think this will lead to other countries trying to broker peace - with teh US hurting rather than helping. However, I do not think that Netanyahu COULD accept a peace deal even if he wanted - - over half of his cabinet are against a two state solution and his primary goal is to stay in power. No mediator can tailor a solution when either side things they can do better by not settling. Unfortunately, both cases are unwilling to settle thinking time is on their side.

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Original post)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 02:44 PM

3. Don-the-Con's head will explode... anxiously awaiting the next tweet-storm

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Response to groundloop (Reply #3)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 03:13 PM

12. Trump doensn't know ANYTHING about ANY issue....

 

He's more likely to Tweet about Alex Baldwin than Israel.

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Original post)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 02:52 PM

5. So easy to grow that spine when you've got nothing else to lose eh?

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Original post)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 02:59 PM

6. As Jonathan Alter noted, this resolution simply calls on Isreal to keep the promises it made.

As Alter explained, this resolution is consistent with what has been U.S. policy all along. This is not an "anti-Israel" resolution when it is consistent with what Isreal agreed to after the 1967 war and Israel 's agreement that there be movement to a two state solution, a solution which can't come without a solution to the settlements issue.

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Original post)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 03:03 PM

8. Good news.

Both in terms of doing the right thing and because it will piss Herr Drumpf off -- bigly!

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Response to greatauntoftriplets (Reply #8)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 03:23 PM

16. I bet we get out of the UN

 

Trump won't want the United States with the UN anymore. He may not next month but within 4 years our country won't be part of UN anymore. Sad but trump hates the UN.

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Response to yeoman6987 (Reply #16)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 04:15 PM

40. A lot of Republicans do.

Mostly because of the support we provide to their operations. Sad if we do drop out of it. The UN has done a lot of good, much like NATO.

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Response to yeoman6987 (Reply #16)

Sun Dec 25, 2016, 08:54 AM

131. I don't think we'll get out. But I can see a 50% funding cut. n/t

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Response to Calista241 (Reply #131)

Sun Dec 25, 2016, 08:57 AM

132. Good point

 

Many think it's crazy we pay so much into it. At least double what other countries do. What they should do is take all member countries and divide by the budget and everyone pays the same.

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Response to yeoman6987 (Reply #16)

Sun Dec 25, 2016, 09:39 AM

133. I'm not in love with the UN

Replace it with the United Nations of Democracies.

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Original post)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 03:08 PM

9. I am deeply disappointed with President Obama.

This betrayal of the Jewish state will not be forgotten, and is a major blight on his legacy.

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Response to tritsofme (Reply #9)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 03:15 PM

13. How is it a "betrayal" to ask them to do what they said they'd do?

 

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Response to tritsofme (Reply #9)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 03:24 PM

18. Asking them to not violate human rights laws is so cruel

 

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Response to tritsofme (Reply #9)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 03:30 PM

19. Thought the Betrayal Was Netenyahu Walking Away from 2 State Solution

Israel has been repeatedly grabbing territory in an effort to undermine peace efforts and expand. How can the U.S. condemn Russia's annexation of Ukraine while looking the other way as Israel grabs territory?

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #19)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 04:26 PM

43. Interesting point.

 

Lets hope Russian sanctions continue under president sniffles.

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #19)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 12:48 PM

84. The Palestinians refuse to negotiate

who exactly is Netanyahu going to negotiate with? Hamas?

and maybe you could show me where Obama has condemned the illegal takeover of Northern Cyprus by the NATO country Turkey.

I'll wait.



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Response to TomCADem (Reply #19)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 02:39 PM

111. How can Russia condemn Israel's occupation while annexing the Ukraine?

 

That seems a bit odd also.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #111)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 04:33 PM

117. How Can Republicans Complain About the Deficit or Hillary's Alleged Conflicts...

...then greenlight massive tax cuts and increases in miliary spending while giving Trump and his cabinet appointees a free pass on their conflicts of interest? It's what liars do.

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #117)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 04:41 PM

118. Indeed lots of UN member states are run by hypocrites and liars

 

Russia is certainly not the only one.

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Response to tritsofme (Reply #9)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 03:34 PM

22. Please find a copy of Samantha Power's excellent speech

Obama absolutely did not "betray" Israel. The current rightwing government has betrayed everything that Israel and Jewish values stand for.

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Response to karynnj (Reply #22)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 03:43 PM

26. Oh I read it, and still don't agree with her attempt to justify this.

Thank goodness Chuck Schumer is leading the Senate Democratic caucus next year.

It is such a shame, if Hillary was president-elect, she would have been able to prevail on Obama to stop this travesty, instead Trump basically baited him into doing it.

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Response to tritsofme (Reply #26)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 03:57 PM

33. Salon - Sheldon Adelson runs Israel: Benjamin Netanyahu, GOP

Kudos to President Obama for standing up to the right wing, including the Sheldon Adelson's right wing puppet, Benjamin Netenyahu.

http://www.salon.com/2015/03/17/sheldon_adelson_runs_israel_benjamin_netanyahu_gop_and_the_real_middle_eastern_threat_partner/

In next Tuesday’s election, is Binyamin Netanyahu, the Israeli Prime Minister, hoping to gain the upper hand by showing voters that he can influence U.S. policy – or by taking a hard new line on never giving up the West Bank? The answer to this question says a lot about which way influence really runs between Israel and the United States.

Netanyahu’s spit-at-the-White-House-from-Capitol-Hill speech has led some commentators to criticize him for running on a boast that he can bend at least Republican policymakers in the United States to his will. After all, they point out, he won at least a dozen standing ovations in Netanyahu’s address to Congress.

But Israeli voters have other, very practical, concerns on their mind – such as the affordability of housing and ever-rising income inequality. They are too smart and too cynical to believe the tired old trope that anyone in Israel exercises some kind of special influence over U.S. policy.

Intriguingly, Netanyahu knows that as well as anyone. And that suggests that what he’s really selling in this election is the other big piece of news his latest campaign has generated – his apparent repudiation of a two-state solution for Palestine and a promise to hold on to the West Bank.

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Response to tritsofme (Reply #26)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 04:21 PM

41. It is ridiculous that you say that Trump baited him into it

The timeline completely disproves that. Kerry gave a very detailed description of the problems caused by the settlement expansion in teh West Bank earlier this month. The speculation then was that Obama would allow a resolution and or discuss what they saw as a framework for a middle eastern peace. This was not a surprise. Not to mention - it is very very close to the US policy for decades.

Furthermore, from a State Department briefing Kerry spoke to Netanyahu before Netanyahu spoke to Trump and before either tweeted and before Trump spoke to Sisi - in what really was a pretty questionable action - purportedly done at Netanyahu's suggestion. As to HRC prevailing to stop this - I suggest you forget that she took credit for the settlement freeze that the Obama administration asked for in the first term. She might have distanced herself, but I doubt she would have stopped it or even wanted to stop it.

Settlements are incompatible with the two state solution that she has long supported. They are very compatible with the policies that Jared Kusher and Trump's Israel ambassador nominee. They support the settler's movement that call for Israel to annex "Judea and Sumeria" aka the West Bank -- preferably without the Palestinians living there.

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Response to karynnj (Reply #41)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 12:45 PM

83. All of the growth is within existing settlements

and land swaps (per UNSCR 242) are a main component of a "two state solution".

Settlement growth has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the Palestinian dictators in charge have no interest in negotiating a permanent settlement, they think liberal leaders are going to eventually "impose" a "solution" on Israel. How fucking stupid is that?

Obama/Kerry/Powers threw Israel under the bus for political reasons. It won't reflect well on their legacies.







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Response to Mosby (Reply #83)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 01:00 PM

86. Not true at all - even Netanyahu does not claim that

All of that said, with this criticism it seems like the Israeli government wants the conversation to be about anything other than the settlement activity. And the fact of the matter is, as you heard Samantha say, since 2009, the number of Israeli settlers in the West Bank has increased by more than 100,000 to nearly 400,000. There's been an increase of more than 15,000 in the last year alone. Since 2009, construction has begun on over 12,700 new settlement units in the West Bank. There are now nearly 900,000 -- I'm sorry, 90,000 settlers living east of the separation barrier that was created by Israel itself. And the population of these distant settlements has grown by 20,000 since 2009.

So this is not simply a matter of construction within the so-called blocks, within what has long been considered the likely borders of a future -- within a future peace agreement. We have acknowledged publicly that there will have to be an acknowledgement of the growth since the 1967 lines were established as a part of any future peace agreement. But in fact, what we've seen is much more accelerated settlement construction. And now the total settler population in the West Bank and East Jerusalem exceeds 590,000.

Prime Minister Netanyahu recently described his own government as "more committed to settlements than any in Israel's history." Those are his words. And we're concerned about these trends. We were concerned after our election, when one of his leading coalition partners, Naftali Bennett, declared that "the era of the two-state solution is over."

So, for us, the question here has always been about what is the best way to pursue the security that the Israeli people deserve. And we cannot simply have a two-state solution be a slogan while the trend lines on the ground are such that a two-state solution is becoming less and less viable.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141647865

Netanyahu is completely dishonest - as most of the Israeli press noted in articles after the last elections there. His government has taken actions that make a two state solution less likely -- and around half of his cabinet do not even pretend to support one. Obama and Kerry, on the other hand, are men of integrity and honest.

You are throwing the Democratic President of the United States and his Secretary of State under the bus for Netanyahu, who has more in common with Donald Trump!!

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Response to karynnj (Reply #86)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 01:15 PM

89. She doesn't say that the growth was outside the blocks, just that it's been accelerating.

Abbas is an unelected dictator and Hamas is a terrorist group and yet according to you it's all the fault of Netanyahu.

The Palestinians and their supporters are not interested in a country, their goal is the destruction of Israel.

What have the Palestinians done to earn a state of their own?

Have they built a governmental infrastructure? No.

Are they financially self sufficient? No.

Do they have a democratically elected government? No.

Do they have a functioning economy? No.

Have they rejected the use of violence? No.

Have they stopped paying terrorists families stipends? No.

Have they stopped brainwashing school kids to hate Iraelis/Jews? No.

Why would Obama, Kerry and Powers side with such an illiberal, hard core right wing society over one of the most liberal countries in the world?















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Response to tritsofme (Reply #26)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 10:11 PM

67. Travesty? it is a great thing

 

I also STRONGLY disagree with you ludicrous accusation that "Trump basically baited him into doing it."

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Response to tritsofme (Reply #9)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 03:39 PM

24. Uh..

I believe the U.S. just pledged the most military aid ever to Israel, is that a betrayal too?


Peace

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Response to tritsofme (Reply #9)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 04:23 PM

42. Totally. We should exterminate those nuisance Palestinians wanting a place to live hassle free. nt

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Response to tritsofme (Reply #9)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 05:05 PM

47. I take it you support the single state solution?

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Response to tritsofme (Reply #9)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 07:11 PM

51. Nonsense.

This was long overdue.

Well-done, Mr. President – you will indeed be missed.

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Response to tritsofme (Reply #9)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 10:06 PM

63. I am deeply proud of President Obama.

 

This utterly justified smackdown of the illegal settlements of the Jewish state will not be forgotten, and is a major shining point on his legacy.

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Response to tritsofme (Reply #9)

Sun Dec 25, 2016, 12:56 AM

126. I'm disappointed too. Obama should have shut off all military aid to them too.

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Original post)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 03:11 PM

11. Hours ago: Fatah (ruling Palestinian party) celebrates terrorist attacks

 

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas’s Fatah movement used social media this month to celebrate numerous attacks by its members that killed over 100 Israelis.

Israeli monitoring group Palestinian Media Watch found that the Fatah used Facebook on two consecutive days to highlight its “most outstanding” terror attacks, in which a total of 116 Israelis — 100 civilians, including 22 children, and 16 soldiers — were killed.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/fatah-uses-facebook-to-celebrate-murders-of-over-100-israelis/

Israel will just keep building settlements and ignore the UN. They don't want to coexist with people who desire their death.

If Obama had wanted to do this, he should have done it years ago. He had his chance. This looks like scorched earth tactics as he leaves office. Like a bull in a china shop who knows someone else will have to fix the china shop in 30 days. Terrible to allow domestic politics to upset decades of diplomatic precedent.

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #11)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 03:17 PM

14. "They don't want to coexist with people who desire their death."

 

That's been the Right Wing line for so long you would think it was the Arabs and not the Germans that ran the gas chambers.

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #14)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 03:50 PM

29. Go look at the polling of people in the Palestinian territories. Madness is widespread

 

They are among the most extreme in the world. 89% support Sharia law and 40% support suicide bombings. Nobody but the most suicidal lunatic would coexist with that.






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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #29)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 06:01 PM

49. I agree with Carter on this.

 

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #49)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 07:58 PM

53. Can you expound?

 

I would like to know what he thinks about this. Haven't gotten around to reading his books, unfortunately.

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #53)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 09:32 PM

59. One word: Apartheid

 

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #59)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 09:35 PM

61. Carter: "Israel is a wonderful democracy with equal treatment of all citizens whether Arab or Jew"

 

Most of the people that seem to be critical have not read the book, or they haven’t referred to anything inside Palestine, and the book is not written about Israel at all. I know that Israel is a wonderful democracy with equal treatment of all citizens whether Arab or Jew. And so I very carefully avoided talking about anything inside Israel.

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2006/12/13/carters-rhetoric-of-apartheid/

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #29)

Sun Dec 25, 2016, 02:05 AM

127. Hmm?

Keep in mind that Sharia means very different things to different people. For example in Egypt Sharia was the counter to the secular dictatorship of Mumbarek. They offered things like free healthcare and Islamic financing, which didn't have an interest rate, and that was seen as the more just system.

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #14)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 08:04 PM

55. Funny thing about reading that quote while skimming the titles

I wasn't sure if it was from the Israeli or Palestinian perspective until I read the previous post.

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Response to Lokilooney (Reply #55)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 09:49 PM

62. The government of Israel has used fear to remain hard core right wing for far too long.

 

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #62)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 12:55 PM

85. Israel is much more liberal than the US

Universal healthcare, free college, robust social safety net....

Maybe you should dial back the hyperbole a bit.

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Response to Mosby (Reply #85)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 01:13 PM

88. Maybe you should check out what's going on in the occupied territories....

 



US policy is to have two states living side by side in peace.

I'll spare you images of the checkpoints.

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #88)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 01:19 PM

90. That map is fake, your peddling in propaganda.

I thought progressives didn't do this kind of shit, guess I was wrong.


Here is a much more accurate map:




Why do you suppose there are checkpoints and a security fence? Is is because Israelis hate Arabs or did something happen? Hmmmm.

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Response to Mosby (Reply #90)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 01:28 PM

92. LOL!!! You honestly believe Israel is SHRINKING?

 

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #92)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 01:33 PM

94. Yes, it's history.

The Palestinian homeland was given away by the British to the Hashemites.

How is that Israel's fault?



See the grey area? That was supposed to be Palestine.

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Response to Mosby (Reply #94)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 02:08 PM

99. That's pre-Israel.

 

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #99)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 02:26 PM

107. How about when Israel gave up the Sinai to Egypt

 

That was in 1979.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #107)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 09:36 PM

123. Spoils of war? Seriously?

 

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #88)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 02:30 PM

109. A few questions for you about those maps

 

What do the white spots represent in that first map?

In the second map why is the white spot labeled "occupied by Israel" when Israel did not exist in 1947 (and the map is of a plan proposed by the United Nations)?

If the third map represents a UN Mandate then why would the white part be labeled "occupied by Israel"?

Also, on that third map, why would the green areas be labeled as Palestine when they were occupied by Jordan and Egypt respectively at that time?

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Response to oberliner (Reply #109)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 09:33 PM

122. I'll answer since Spitfire is being quiet.

 

That map posted by Spitfire is anti-Semitic crap.

-app

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #11)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 03:24 PM

17. Israelis should stay on their own fucking land if they

 

have an issue co-existing with people.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #17)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 03:34 PM

23. The Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem should be off-limits to Israelis?

 

That seems a little backwards.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #23)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 03:42 PM

25. West Bank should be off-limits to the IDF. nt

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #25)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 03:48 PM

28. Not arguing with that

 

But I think there ought to be a more thoughtful approach to Jerusalem. Something along the lines of what Clinton proposed at Camp David, or the Geneva Initiative.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #28)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 03:52 PM

30. Israel controls the whole city and is unwilling to let

 

any of it go. Hard to have a thoughtful approach to a problem immune to thoughtfulness.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #30)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 03:57 PM

34. And before that, it was controlled by Jordan and Jews were expelled

 

And Jewish holy sites were desecrated.

Thoughtful people of the world and international organizations ought to come up with a proposal for Jerusalem that is fair and just.

May I suggest taking a closer look at the Geneva Initiative?

http://www.geneva-accord.org/

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Response to oberliner (Reply #34)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 04:11 PM

39. We can debate Geneva Initiative, but we don't have tanks nt

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #39)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 04:39 PM

44. Political pressure can sometimes be more powerful than tanks

 

Not always, but sometimes.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #23)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 03:53 PM

31. you know

Israel keeps seizing land and pushing out.
Its a fact
Look it up.
Settlement building is a great big FcK you to the Islamic world and the International community.

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Response to MFM008 (Reply #31)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 03:59 PM

35. Seems like killing Muslims is a bigger F you to the Islamic world

 

But for some reason it doesn't seem to get folks as worked up as Israeli settlements (unless Israel is doing it).

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Response to oberliner (Reply #23)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 08:21 AM

76. It's about far more than the Jewish Quarter of the old city

At the end of 2012, the population of the Jerusalem municipality was 815,310 Jews and others (63 percent) and 300,150 Palestinians (37 percent). 61 percent of the residents live on land that was annexed in 1967 (40 percent of whom are Jews, and 60 percent Palestinians). With Palestinians having a higher demographic growth rate (2.6 precent in 2012) than Jews (0.9 precent in 2012), Israel has used various methods to achieve its goal:

Physically isolating East Jerusalem from the rest of the West Bank, in part by building the Separation Barrier;
Discriminating in land expropriation, planning and building, and demolition of houses;
Revoking residency and social benefits of Palestinians who stay abroad for at least seven years, or who are unable to prove that their center of life is in Jerusalem;
Unfairly dividing the budget between the two parts of the city, with harmful effects to infrastructure and services in East Jerusalem.

http://www.btselem.org/jerusalem

So that's 200,000 Jews living on land annexed in 1967. The population of the Jewish Quarter is about 2,000. It's really a red herring to bring it up.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #76)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 08:35 AM

77. The Jewish Quarter is of great significance

 

"... The operations of calculated destruction were set in motion.... I knew that the Jewish Quarter was densely populated with Jews who caused their fighters a good deal of interference and difficulty.... I embarked, therefore, on the shelling of the Quarter with mortars, creating harassment and destruction.... Only four days after our entry into Jerusalem the Jewish Quarter had become their graveyard. Death and destruction reigned over it.... As the dawn of Friday, May 28, 1948, was about to break, the Jewish Quarter emerged convulsed in a black cloud - a cloud of death and agony."

— Yosef Tekoah (Permanent Representative of Israel to the United Nations) quoting Abdullah el-Tal.

The Jordanian commander is reported to have told his superiors: "For the first time in 1,000 years not a single Jew remains in the Jewish Quarter. Not a single building remains intact. This makes the Jews' return here impossible."[14][15] The Hurva Synagogue, originally built in 1701, was blown up by the Jordanian Arab Legion. During the nineteen years of Jordanian rule, a third of the Jewish Quarter's buildings were demolished.[16] According to a complaint Israel made to the United Nations, all but one of the thirty-five Jewish houses of worship in the Old City were destroyed. The synagogues were razed or pillaged and stripped and their interiors used as hen-houses or stables.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Quarter_(Jerusalem)

It seems backwards to disregard that history.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #17)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 03:55 PM

32. It's not the Israelis who have a problem coexisting

 

Would you allow your children to live in an area where people believe in suicide bombings and Sharia? Hell no.




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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #32)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 04:09 PM

38. Pay no attention to that armed occupation and de facto apartheid

 

state behind the curtain.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #38)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 08:00 PM

54. Arabs are 20.7% of Israelis citizens

 

According to Wikipedia. It's not really apartheid if 20% of the state is not Jewish. The armed occupation continues because Israel knows once Arabs constitute a majority, ethnic cleansing/genocide will inevitably follow, same as everywhere else in the Middle East.

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #54)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 09:34 PM

60. The West Bank is a de facto apartheid state.

 

The settlers are the new Afrikaaners. They even used the same excuses for their rendition of apartheid.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #60)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 02:15 PM

101. Yes, the West Bank is basically an open air prison of non-voters

 

It's really a question of survival. Incorporate a people into the Jewish state who desire their deaths, or violate human rights and keep them separate.

You have to understand that they just watched Sunni extremists commit genocide against Syrian Christians and Yazidis. I doubt the Jews of Israel would survive Hamas' ruling coalition in the Knesset.

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #101)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 02:18 PM

103. Exactly the rationale of the Afrikaaners.

 

You know what radicalizes people? Treating them and their children as prisoners.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #103)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 02:26 PM

106. Oh, so you think you've figured it out? Then explain Germany and France.

 

You know what radicalizes people? Treating them and their children as prisoners.


Did Germany treat Muslims like prisoners? They opposed the Iraq invasion, along with France. Both countries are extremely generous to Muslim immigrants, more than any Sunni country. Please tell me how the gay people at Pulse nightclub treat children as prisoners. What did Belgium do? What did India do to the Palestinians? What did the Sudanese do? What did the Nigerians who are getting slaughtered by Boko Haram do to Palestine? The Ahmadis beaten to death by clubs in Indonesia, what did they do to Palestine? The Copt woman in Egypt? The Christian family killed in Pakistan?

That's why your argument fails. You can chalk up Israeli terror as Israel's fault, but in your rush to absolve the attacker of blame, you have holes in your logic a mile wide. The whole world can't be guilty of persecuting Palestinians.

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #106)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 02:39 PM

112. Vast majority of European Muslims aren't radicalized.

 

Localized civil wars are due to land and tribe, not religion.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #112)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 02:44 PM

113. Neither are the vast majority of Palestinian Muslims

 

For what that is worth.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #112)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 03:01 PM

115. I must start with an apology here, since I didn't address your comments about Afrikaners

 

Let me do so now. The reason that whites weren't ethnically cleansed following the fall of Apartheid is down to one man: Mandela. He had unimaginable forgiveness, tolerance, and forethought. Now, today, his party (the ANC) is falling apart due to corruption and incompetence. Mandela's moderating influence unfortunately seems to have died with him. Meet Julius Malema, the next generation of politician in post-Mandela Africa.

South Africa's opposition leader calls on blacks to occupy white-owned land

In a speech Monday, left-wing politician Julius Malema called on country’s black population to “occupy the land” owned by whites. His defiant appeal comes as he faces charges for breaking an apartheid-era anti-riot law.

http://www.dw.com/en/south-africas-opposition-leader-calls-on-blacks-to-occupy-white-owned-land/a-36299120

But you're right, it hasn't happened (yet). When the ANC falls, or is corrupted by the same sentiments, then it's over. Look just north, though. It happened in Zimbabwe. Whites were ethnically cleansed. Around 120,000 white Zimbabweans lived in Zimbabwe in the mid 90s. Now only 28k remain after violence and racist laws drove them out. There was no Mandela to moderate the reaction.

Now, back to the question of Palestine. Do you imagine there exists a Palestinian Mandela? Because I have not seen one in my lifetime.

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #115)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 07:41 PM

120. Not content to endorse apartheid redux in Palestine,

 

you're now endorsing/excusing the original apartheid.

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #32)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 04:41 PM

46. Great post

I can't name one thing the "palestinian terr" have done to further peace.

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Response to Rustyeye77 (Reply #46)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 08:07 PM

56. Because their ultimate goal isn't peace

 

It's killing Jews. They'll cleanse the Holy Land of Jews the same way they cleansed the rest of the ME of Jews and Christians.

The tenets of Sunni Islam, which are influence by Wahhabism, are to cleanse every non-Sunni from existence. For some reason, the west is pretending that they can be reasonable administrators of a multi-religious state. They can't, and have proven it in almost every majority Sunni country.

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #56)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 10:09 PM

65. So you honestly believe Arabs want to kill Jews?

Any other ugly stereotypes of an entire group you want to trot out? Pamela Gellers got a shitload she can lend you.

Trying to pretend the belligerent occcupation by Israel of the West Bank and the mistreatment of Palestinians isn't the reason some Palestinians have resorted to violence is as stupid as someone claiming people hate Trump coz he's super wealthy while ignoring his hatred towards everyone who isn't a white male. And his predatory sexually abusive treatment of women.

No-one who thinks that the US should be condemned for merely abstaining from a resolution asking Israel to do what it promised to do is the slightest bit interested in peace. Most of those ranks would be full of either anti Semites or anti Muslim bigots, though a few would be equal opportunity bigots and hate both Jews and Muslims.

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #65)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 01:01 PM

87. How about this ugly bigotry

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=1646812

expect another

Israeli " clean up" operation in the dwindling Palestinian areas in spring or summer with full approval by maggot.


Do you condemn that or do you think the poster is right that Israelis are monsters who get off killing Arabs?

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #65)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 01:59 PM

95. It has little to do with belief

 

This is more like prognostication based on every shred of available evidence. Watching a Christian couple burned to death by a mob of 1000 Pakistanis. Having an elderly Coptic woman paraded naked through the streets of an Egyptian city. These are unthinkable to non-Sunni cultures.

Look at the borders of Sunni Islam. Malaysia, Indonesia, China and India are its general borders in the east. Conflict. South: Nigeria, Somalia, Sudan, conflict and ethnic cleansing of non-Sunnis. North: Chechnya, Turkey, Syria, Iraq, conflict and ethnic cleansing. West: Germany/France/Belgium- formerly safe, now in conflict. Of course these aren't comprehensive, just the general borders of Sunni Islam.

I'm not a scholar, but I'm also not a fool. It doesn't take much thinking to see that Buddhists, Hindus, Christians, Jews, atheists, Taoists, animists, Wiccans, and other sects of Islam like Ahmadiyya and Ibadi Islam, all have one thing in common: they don't get along with mainstream Sunni extremism.

I argue that we don't need a very good crystal ball to know what will happen to the Jews if they ever fall under the power of their neighbors. Saying all that, does it justify settlements? No. I wouldn't argue that.

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #95)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 11:32 PM

125. What are the respective faiths of Bosnians and Serbs?

 

Does Srebrenica factor into your thinking?

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #56)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 10:09 PM

66. So, your take is that Islam itself is the real enemy that

 

must be defeated.

You a Mikey Flynn fan?

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #66)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 02:03 PM

96. No. There are several peaceful sects of Islam

 

Ahmadiyya and Ibadis are also victims of Sunni extremism. The Ahmadiyya in particular demand respect for women and minorities, and strongly condemn terrorism. They teach love and respect for the lives of others.

It appears to be one sect of one religion that has a problem coexisting with literally everyone else they encounter on earth. Hell, they even fight themselves over doctrinal differences.

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #96)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 02:07 PM

98. Sunnis are 85-90% of all Muslims. 10-15% are Shia.

 

You seem to hold the same view of mainstream Islam as do Donald Trump and Pam Geller.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #98)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 02:18 PM

102. The Sunnis could fix the problem fairly easily

 

Stop preaching Wahhabi doctrine: misogyny, homophobia, hatred for other races, and death to nonbelievers. It isn't that complicated. No other religion has problems like this. Not one.


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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #102)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 02:19 PM

104. Gelleresque. nt

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #104)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 02:28 PM

108. Hiteresque.

 

That whole Final Solution thing fell out of favor a while ago. You prove with every word why Israel is vital for the survival of the Jewish people.

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #108)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 02:35 PM

110. Rancid bigotry towards all Muslims won't make Jews any safer nt

 

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #56)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 12:35 PM

82. So this justifies ethnic cleansing of occupied territories?

Force Palestinians who lived there for generations out to make way for expanded Jewish settlements?

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #82)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 02:05 PM

97. Definitely not. nt

 

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #32)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 10:19 PM

69. Sharia? Uh, Israel has Sharia courts

Also that thing you posted says the majority are opposed to suicide bombings. If yr gonna try that sort of thing to try to demonise an entire people, there's some other Pew polls that can show Americans in a very ugly light.

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #69)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 03:38 AM

72. The majority are opposed

 

40% in favor. Violet, tell me honestly you would live in a country where 40% of people agree with suicide bombings.

Americans are not genocidal or supportive of terrorism.

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #72)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 06:05 AM

73. "Americans are not genocidal or supportive of terrorism. "







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Response to BumRushDaShow (Reply #73)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 12:16 PM

81. Oh look, articles from the distant past and Trump

 

More whataboutism. Trump and the American public do not support genocide. Stop with the false equivalence.

If you really want to make this point, post a poll showing Americans approving of terrorism or ethnic cleansing. Post one. You can't, because the American people don't believe in either.

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #81)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 04:18 PM

116. trump supporters will claim they aren't racist also

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Response to JI7 (Reply #116)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 05:03 PM

119. At the risk of minimizing racism and intolerance

 

I think there is a great distance between Trump supporters and terrorists. If the 45% of the country who supports Trump believed in suicide bombing, this country wouldn't exist right now. Not with all the firepower they have at their disposal relative to Europe, where guns often have to be acquired illegally.

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #119)

Sun Dec 25, 2016, 05:24 AM

128. many of them think it's ok to kill innocent black people as seen by the white juries that refuse to

convict white cops or even thugs like zimmerman. even when there is video proof.

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #119)

Sun Dec 25, 2016, 07:38 AM

130. Sorry but having the power to enforce any racism/bigotry IS terrorism

to the victims of it, including through both physical and mental abuse.

When legal immigrant children are terrified of being rounded up by Confederate-flag waving hoodlums and turned in to be deported, they are being terrorized. When any POC children are afraid to walk down the street without being accosted by LEO or attend a school without having racial slurs hurled at them daily by other students, teachers, principals, or outsiders threatening them as they play in a school playground while invoking Trump's name - THAT is terrorism. When Aryans threaten with sites like this - https://aryanstreet.com/ that have received blessings from the followers of the President-elect, that is terrorism.

You don't get to define "terrorism" within some narrow definition that fits your silly argument. It's the epitome of arrogance. And the fact that we have groups to monitor these extremists who have now been given a new lease on life with this election, the question now becomes whether this incoming administration will even bother to keep our own U.S. extremists in check. Many of us doubt it.

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #81)

Sun Dec 25, 2016, 07:15 AM

129. Oh look

denial by claiming terror of POC in the U.S. is the "distant past". Try scanning through this and get educated - https://www.splcenter.org/

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #72)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 02:11 PM

100. over 40 percent did vote for trump

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #69)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 09:08 AM

80. Long time no see

 

Glad you are still out there posting. We could use you in the I/P forum. Numbers are dwindling there.

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #69)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 01:26 PM

91. Let's take a look at the Pew study (2013)

http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-full-report.pdf

Here are some of the findings:

48% of Palestinians support polygamy (pg 11)

89% of Palestinians support Sharia law (pg. 15)

89% of Palestinians think Homosexuality is morally wrong (pg. 81)

87% of Palestinians think that women should obey their husbands (pg. 93)

40% of Palestinians think suicide bombing is often/sometimes justified (pg. 29)

76% of Palestinians support penalties such as whipping or cutting off the hands of thieves (pg. 52)

84% of Palestinians support stoning for adultery (pg. 54)

66% of Palestinians support the death penalty for leaving Islam (pg. 55)

40% of Palestinians support a strong leader over democracy (pg. 60)

72% of Palestinians think that religious leaders should have a say in politics (pg. 64)

89% of Palestinians think that Islam is the only path to salvation (pg. 101)

And finally:

97% of Palestinians are Antisemites:

http://www.pewglobal.org/2010/02/04/chapter-3-views-of-religious-groups/

Those are some pretty hard core right wing views right there.

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Response to Mosby (Reply #91)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 02:22 PM

105. How does that make sense?

 

Palestinians cant be anti semites given they are semites themselves.

97% have an unfavorable opinion of jews.

Yes they seem to have an average view that is totally opposite of mine. The question is, is it genetic? Or because of the hardship of their lives?

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Response to TheHak (Reply #105)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 02:49 PM

114. Antisemitism has nothing to do with semites

 

The word antisemitism means prejudice against or hatred of Jews.

It was a term made up by Wilhelm Marr in the early 1880s to make Jew hatred appear more scientific sounding.

Perhaps a new term for prejudice against or hated of Jews ought to be coined to avoid confusion.

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Original post)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 03:18 PM

15. My only disappointment

 

Is that we abstained instead of supporting the measure

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Response to philosslayer (Reply #15)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 10:13 PM

68. this

 

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Original post)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 03:33 PM

21. We should appreciate the last eight years because it will be a

downward spiral from here. I sure will
This is the DU member formerly known as still_one.

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Response to still_one (Reply #21)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 06:54 PM

50. Very much appreciate the last 8 years, stillone..

thank you!

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Original post)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 04:05 PM

37. The deep, deep irony

is the danger of Israel sidling up to Christian evangelicals, who seem to want Armageddon so badly these days...

Israelis should be far more worried about all the neo-Nazi's surrounding Trump, and his desire to move the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem. It's part of their insane biblical playbook for hastening their idiotic second coming.

Once some numb-nut bombs the Dome of the Rock all hell will break loose. That's the friggin' plan.

And Jesus wept...

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Response to ymetca (Reply #37)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 04:40 PM

45. Yes, the Israeli lobby + evilgelicals

 

a recipe for disaster. Like our Reich wing, the Israeli Reich wing doesn't do what the people want.

Poll: Majority of Israelis, Palestinians want peaceful solution

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2016/0822/Poll-Majority-of-Israelis-Palestinians-want-peaceful-solution

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Original post)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 05:09 PM

48. Bibi may have screwed himself

by foolishly trying to bypass the real President and appealing to the UnPresidented.

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Response to moondust (Reply #48)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 01:29 PM

93. I think you are right -- because part of the US ability to protect Israel has been the respect

that European governments have for Obama and Kerry. That respect has enabled the Obama administration to soften many reactions against things that Israel has done.

Netanyahu might find that Trump will be more problematic as he actually supports those to Netanyahu's right - like Bennett. In addition, I do not think that Trump will be acknowledged as the leader that Obama really is among our most important allies. (I think the US media itself is influenced by the constant RW derision and through laziness, they ignore that Obama/Kerry really did pull together a historic coalition and were essential to getting nearly 200 nation's to sign on to the climate accord. )

Reading and analysis in Haartez of the UN agreement - http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141647865 - this was a defeat for Netanyahu. He points out that while the US abstained, the rest of the security council voted for this. In particular, he says of Russia,

"The allegedly close relations between Netanyahu and Putin fall short when it comes to Russian interests and UN votes. Russia is one of the main supporters of the Palestinians over the last 50 years. During those years and today as well Russia has been voting against Israel in every possible international forum. It is possible that things will change in the future, but at least at this stage a Russian veto on a UNSC resolution concerning the Israeli-Palestinian conflict belongs to the realm of science fiction and not diplomacy."
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.761049

The reality is that the US has been a restraining force on countries like France - and even the UK and Germany - from publicly criticizing Israel or allowing full blown boycotts. This is out of respect for Obama and Kerry who asked for the space to try to work with Israel.

The scary thing for Israel - and the US itself - is that Trump may in a very short time eliminate the US as a respected leader.

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Response to karynnj (Reply #93)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 08:58 PM

121. The situation

*could* get even uglier as early as next year. Bibi is already withdrawing ambassadors and considering withdrawing U.N. funding and who knows what else--basically a (heavily armed) child's temper tantrum. He's obviously very determined and uncompromising and counting on a blank check and a green light from Drumpf; he may already be planning more land grabs and shelling of Gaza--the opinions of mankind be damned.

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Original post)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 07:13 PM

52. Thank you President Obama!

 

You have done the right thing.
It will certainly be undone by the Orange One, but thanks for making a stand for sanity.

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Original post)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 08:47 PM

57. Life imitates art

Several years ago we watched the BBC series An Honorable Woman. It was about the Israeli Palestinians relations with cloak and dagger actions involving MI6 and the CIA. There was no "good guy" there.

At the end, the American Secretary of State said that if and when a vote on a Palestinians State comes to the UN, the United States would not veto it. And I remember saying Wow!


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Response to BumRushDaShow (Original post)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 09:22 PM

58. I hear the Orange Hair Brain isn't pleased.

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Original post)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 10:07 PM

64. Great news!! Thank you President Obama! 36 years too late but still, a win is a win.

 

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Original post)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 11:06 PM

70. Russia voted for this

 

Good to know.

Any resolutions passed the UNSC about their illegal occupations?

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Original post)

Fri Dec 23, 2016, 11:57 PM

71. kick

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Original post)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 06:32 AM

74. Good. n/t

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Original post)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 07:53 AM

75. Bravo. n/t

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Original post)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 08:38 AM

78. Trump sees West Bank as opportunity

 

Trump is an investor in real estate. He does not know the history of the "land." This "land" is holy! This "land" is the only reason for the hatred and killing between Arabs and Jews in Israel. Netanyahu sees Trump as his partner. Add this up and it shows how bad the future looks for the Middle East. When you think things cannot be any worse...

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Original post)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 08:40 AM

79. Thanks Obama! Every little bit helps!

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Original post)

Sat Dec 24, 2016, 10:41 PM

124. Interesting development, possibly a rapid rebuke?

Maybe there's more to the election story than Russia ...

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