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MADem

(135,425 posts)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 09:19 AM Jul 2012

NCAA hands out severe punishment for Penn State

Source: USA Today

NCAA President Mark Emmert made the announcement Monday morning that the program would be hit a four-year postseason ban and a $60 million fine.
In addition, the school will be forced to cut 10 scholarships for this season and 20 scholarships for the following four years.
The school will be forced to vacate all wins from 1998-2011, a total of 112 victories.
The NCAA ruling represented a seminal moment for Emmert, the former University of Washington president whose 20-month tenure has coincided with an unpredictable and turbulent time in college sports.

Read more: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/bigten/story/2012-07-23/ncaa-penn-state-punishment-sanctions/56427630/1



I'll bet the taking away of all those wins will piss off those fanatics more than the sixty million. We'll see. This is remarkable--I've never seen anything like this before.

This IS "LBN"--not just a sports story, since it happened as a consequence of malfeasance, corruption, child abuse and assault, etc.
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NCAA hands out severe punishment for Penn State (Original Post) MADem Jul 2012 OP
Appropriate punishment alcibiades_mystery Jul 2012 #1
Bobby Bowden becomes the Division 1 leader. bluedigger Jul 2012 #6
Dammit! That's what I meant alcibiades_mystery Jul 2012 #8
direct punishment for Paterno - losing all those wins DrDan Jul 2012 #10
And the most appropriate, I think. bluedigger Jul 2012 #33
I put more blame on those adminstrators DrDan Jul 2012 #41
They were definitely enablers. bluedigger Jul 2012 #49
Blaming the wrong man for the wrong reasons. Eddie Haskell Jul 2012 #54
who is the "wrong man"? DrDan Jul 2012 #58
Well, nice knowing you (not really--never saw you before today). No "wrong man" was blamed. MADem Jul 2012 #62
"I've had it with the DU"... awoke_in_2003 Jul 2012 #108
One of my favorite movies of all time. FarPoint Jul 2012 #151
The greatness of Val Kilmer... awoke_in_2003 Jul 2012 #166
Val Kilmer should of gotten an Oscar. FarPoint Jul 2012 #167
So long. Ikonoklast Jul 2012 #135
GOOD. To hell with them. Zero accountability means severe punishment. Amerigo Vespucci Jul 2012 #2
Isn't it named after Sue Paterno? E-Z-B Jul 2012 #5
No. It's the Paterno Library alcibiades_mystery Jul 2012 #9
I think it is named after both of them. They gave four million to have it built. nt MADem Jul 2012 #13
There are 100,000 volumes of children's literature in the Paterno Library Beowulf Jul 2012 #70
That's called "irony" ... not "mitigation." TahitiNut Jul 2012 #145
I'd monitor the reactions AND the attitudes at PSU over the next 4 years ... TahitiNut Jul 2012 #146
The people paying the price are innocent.(Current and future students, players, and fans.) CANDO Jul 2012 #150
We are not a lynch mob. FarPoint Jul 2012 #153
Apparently CANDO Jul 2012 #156
How teh heck are PSU boosters being "punished" and "lynched"? obamanut2012 Jul 2012 #159
Are degrees still being given out? Are classes still ongoing? obamanut2012 Jul 2012 #158
"Price"?? What abject, utter nonsense. TahitiNut Jul 2012 #161
The Family Paterno Will Come Unglued over This. CBGLuthier Jul 2012 #3
I think Paterno deserves whatever they punish him with, but he is dead. There is too much morningglory Jul 2012 #22
As a married man... awoke_in_2003 Jul 2012 #110
Wow -- good for the NCAA obamanut2012 Jul 2012 #4
How convenient for the NCAA AngryAmish Jul 2012 #7
There are options. Turn off the TV, go watch a high school game. MADem Jul 2012 #14
I think the vacating of wins is the worst penalty, especially for a school like Penn St. AngryOldDem Jul 2012 #25
I agree--they have a bunch of wealthy Rah-Rah football alumni; and the win-grab was like peeing in MADem Jul 2012 #56
Upset much? Oh, and the 60 million is the revenue that the were earning from 1 year of football- snooper2 Jul 2012 #23
What should the fine have been? joeglow3 Jul 2012 #48
I'm not sure a self serving fine would be appropriate AngryAmish Jul 2012 #50
I tend to Agree Iggy Jul 2012 #52
The taking away of wins suggests they were improperly earned. leveymg Jul 2012 #11
Of course they were improperly earned--those two clowns should have been in jail, not coaching. MADem Jul 2012 #64
No argument from me about that. None. Zip. Nyet. leveymg Jul 2012 #69
Probably ignorance, rather than stepping lightly! The JoPa crowd did a good coverup..! nt MADem Jul 2012 #72
Did they really? I read that the abuse was widely rumoured for years. leveymg Jul 2012 #76
I will be the first to admit I didn't follow this story until it broke, but I never heard about MADem Jul 2012 #93
"Jerry Sandusky rumors started long before grand jury report" leveymg Jul 2012 #114
I don't doubt your word in the slightest--even without the amplifying (and interesting) link, MADem Jul 2012 #116
Professional Due Dilligence pre-hire done by UVA or MD would have revealed these problems. leveymg Jul 2012 #118
Uva and Maryland wouldn't have touched him obamanut2012 Jul 2012 #124
True. But the fact that PennState continued to grant him access made PSU and its coaches vulnerable leveymg Jul 2012 #133
I already know that obamanut2012 Jul 2012 #134
Well, then, we agree about possible motive. Knowledge of Sandusky's crimes presented opportunity. leveymg Jul 2012 #139
Is this the death knell? Baitball Blogger Jul 2012 #12
As a national program, Penn State is about to enter a ten-year sleep.... Jeff In Milwaukee Jul 2012 #15
Again, it's a shame Joe Paterno wasn't around to see it. Baitball Blogger Jul 2012 #16
Agreed. calimary Jul 2012 #119
Transfer is allowed without penalty. The Link Jul 2012 #18
They can transfer with no penalty/being redshirted obamanut2012 Jul 2012 #29
That's good....Punish the guilty, not the innocent Jeff In Milwaukee Jul 2012 #35
The Penn program was scum even without this scandal. That even A Simple Game Jul 2012 #43
Joe campaigned for Republican candidates. HERVEPA Jul 2012 #46
Find the pictures of the creep with the GOP bozos and spread 'em around. MADem Jul 2012 #66
retroactive dterrell Jul 2012 #17
How many coaches are the most powerfull men on campus? CANDO Jul 2012 #19
If they really wanted to punish the football program ThoughtCriminal Jul 2012 #20
or that one in Detroit AngryAmish Jul 2012 #21
Now you're just being cruel...(nt) Jeff In Milwaukee Jul 2012 #37
LOL It's funny 'cause it's true. VWolf Jul 2012 #117
SMU still got hit worse than this derby378 Jul 2012 #24
If I recall correctly... Jeff In Milwaukee Jul 2012 #40
Unfortunetly... rexcat Jul 2012 #53
But here's the thing... Jeff In Milwaukee Jul 2012 #55
No one is telling them they can't play football, for the love of the game. MADem Jul 2012 #77
No... Jeff In Milwaukee Jul 2012 #123
Not if that Shakespeare Festival was a competitive thing and brought big money to the school. MADem Jul 2012 #138
As an average citizen I don't feel that it is enough Panasonic Jul 2012 #26
No it would decimiate an economy well beyond the campus. themaguffin Jul 2012 #30
Tough shit gopiscrap Jul 2012 #42
You don't seem to grasp what I'm saying and are too irrational to discuss with themaguffin Jul 2012 #45
That cat is already out of the bag... Evasporque Jul 2012 #34
Wow! I didn't expect anything like this lunatica Jul 2012 #27
the record books will still say victory, but it's done to punish paterno for his cover-up Suji to Seoul Jul 2012 #32
What about the football players? lunatica Jul 2012 #36
unfortunately, what can the ncaa do when they come down on a program? the players always suffer Suji to Seoul Jul 2012 #39
That's why I'm struggling with this. AngryOldDem Jul 2012 #47
That's life. Springslips Jul 2012 #113
The players can study and get roody Jul 2012 #165
Student athletes being students first and athletes second? Nah. . .throwing a football is more Suji to Seoul Jul 2012 #168
Players don't have "wins." Teams do. Players score touchdowns and accumulate yards, and sack QBs MADem Jul 2012 #74
I don't think they will. I think record books from this day forward will give the wins to others.NT MADem Jul 2012 #59
yup obamanut2012 Jul 2012 #68
Those wins were not legitimate, though--a guy who should have been in jail and an accessory after MADem Jul 2012 #57
The USA Today article contradicts itself regarding taking away wins from Paterno's record. bulloney Jul 2012 #28
The wins are vacated. The Link Jul 2012 #31
It's bad writing/editing. bluedigger Jul 2012 #38
Some of the story was probably written before the ruling... SidDithers Jul 2012 #51
So this is what happens when we actually punish wrongdoing by large groups AllyCat Jul 2012 #44
Good job NCAA...hell, maybe we should put the NCAA in charge of Wall Street... Sancho Jul 2012 #60
The program should have been shut down entirely. closeupready Jul 2012 #61
First, I'm not a football fan and originally I thought the death penalty was appropriate. But... Poll_Blind Jul 2012 #63
I think you threaded the needle very nicely, there. It is, indeed, a tailored rebuke! MADem Jul 2012 #67
Hopefully even more justice will prevail BrendaBrick Jul 2012 #65
Big Ten has yet to weigh in, as well. SomeGuyInEagan Jul 2012 #162
I may get pummelled for this Historyprof77132 Jul 2012 #71
The players are not being punished. You need to read the ruling. The players are being protected. MADem Jul 2012 #73
Having to vacate wins punishes past players Historyprof77132 Jul 2012 #81
No it doesn;t obamanut2012 Jul 2012 #84
Well it would piss me off Historyprof77132 Jul 2012 #89
They should be enraged at Penn and Paterno and The Program obamanut2012 Jul 2012 #127
No it doesn't. It doesn't change the yards they ran, the touchdowns they scored, the interceptions MADem Jul 2012 #90
Protecting a pedophile for the sake of a football team=winning illegitimately. Gormy Cuss Jul 2012 #106
The terms of the penalty went quite out of their way to protect present and future players. (nt) Posteritatis Jul 2012 #78
I won't pummel you but I think you are wrong... rexcat Jul 2012 #79
I understand the sentiment behind the ruling Historyprof77132 Jul 2012 #86
My perspective comes from working in pediatrics... rexcat Jul 2012 #92
I guess I am looking at this too much from the standpoint of a player Historyprof77132 Jul 2012 #94
From the reports... rexcat Jul 2012 #140
I suppose for some people it's never a big deal until their child is raped. Poll_Blind Jul 2012 #87
Post removed Post removed Jul 2012 #91
Apparently it is needed, if you're still defending the institution. (nt) Posteritatis Jul 2012 #95
I'm not defending the institution use your gray matter and read my posts. I have never Historyprof77132 Jul 2012 #98
And yet you're talking like only two people were involved with this and not an entire culture. (nt) Posteritatis Jul 2012 #99
The "entire culture" exists today at dozens of universities across the land. CANDO Jul 2012 #155
Editied my previous post. My point was how can you complain about the ruling given the... Poll_Blind Jul 2012 #97
The whole barrel was rotten. IggleDoer Jul 2012 #121
Oh, just wait obamanut2012 Jul 2012 #129
Paterno wasn't thrown under the bus..his hubris kept him from seeing he was in the crosswalk. nt msanthrope Jul 2012 #144
Yup. obamanut2012 Jul 2012 #128
Should have closed their football program for a little while at least. AtheistCrusader Jul 2012 #75
Given the campus' attitude... Posteritatis Jul 2012 #80
+1 nt MADem Jul 2012 #88
Nicely said. rexcat Jul 2012 #82
They'll have far less reverence when all their good players run like hell to other schools. MADem Jul 2012 #85
I had wanted suspension Locrian Jul 2012 #101
We'll see how hard they cheer when Klutz McShoelacetrip and Pudge O'Waddler take the field MADem Jul 2012 #112
Exactly! Or some of the club sports obamanut2012 Jul 2012 #130
I would imagine Penn State games will be monetary losses....home and away... Evasporque Jul 2012 #111
So much for Happy Valley liberal N proud Jul 2012 #83
It'll be Crappy Valley for the next five to ten years..! nt MADem Jul 2012 #96
Excellent ESPN clip with Desmond Howard, BrendaBrick Jul 2012 #100
Tell it like it is! nt MADem Jul 2012 #115
Desmond Howard knows better than most people what "it" is. amandabeech Jul 2012 #125
I enjoyed his comments. nt MADem Jul 2012 #137
Yes, so did I. I think that ESPN made a wise move by hiring him. amandabeech Jul 2012 #141
All great academic schools, too! obamanut2012 Jul 2012 #147
Well, you'll get no flack from me on your post. amandabeech Jul 2012 #149
The scholarship reductions will have the worst impact to the team taught_me_patience Jul 2012 #102
Who would want to play there for the next seven to ten years? MADem Jul 2012 #103
I am sick of the cult-like worship of football dballance Jul 2012 #104
Apparently the "GLEE" culture is giving the football fanatics a run for their money. MADem Jul 2012 #107
what does "vacating all wins" mean, exactly. anything beyond altering the record books? unblock Jul 2012 #105
They aren't the "winningest" team, and Paterno et.al. not the "winningest" coaches. MADem Jul 2012 #109
Players keep their stats obamanut2012 Jul 2012 #131
Too bad we can't put the NCAA in charge of the Catholic Church nichomachus Jul 2012 #120
Not severe enough. Alduin Jul 2012 #122
Death was the only acceptable outcome- NCAA should disband as an organization (NM) Rambis Jul 2012 #126
I have decided this is better than the death penalty obamanut2012 Jul 2012 #132
Penn State's football program shouldn't be punished Zyzafyx Jul 2012 #136
Given attitudes on campus I'm not sure they'll survive probation. (nt) Posteritatis Jul 2012 #142
I agree obamanut2012 Jul 2012 #148
What the hell would that accomplish? SpartanDem Jul 2012 #143
I disagree... sort of Scootaloo Jul 2012 #152
Not enough jmowreader Jul 2012 #154
Students DonCoquixote Jul 2012 #157
This obamanut2012 Jul 2012 #160
Wonderful post. SomeGuyInEagan Jul 2012 #163
NCAA sanctions did absolutely nothing to punish the people responsible. gauguin57 Jul 2012 #164
 

alcibiades_mystery

(36,437 posts)
1. Appropriate punishment
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 09:23 AM
Jul 2012

Especially since there seemed to be a desire among Penn State admin to keep a lid on this until Paterno won his record number of games. With the games rescinded, it looks like Bear Bryant reclaims his title.

No doubt the rescinded wins will infuriate the PSU fanatics the most, but it is appropriate, and not something we've heard of or discussed before. A very apt statement on what those years meant for PSU given the admin's absolute refusal to do (or even see!) what was right.

bluedigger

(17,077 posts)
6. Bobby Bowden becomes the Division 1 leader.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 09:28 AM
Jul 2012

Wiki has already been updated to reflect the change. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_college_football_coaches_with_200_wins



I think they did a good job with the sanctions overall and in treating the athletes fairly.

 

alcibiades_mystery

(36,437 posts)
8. Dammit! That's what I meant
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 09:30 AM
Jul 2012

I don't know why I brain farted to Bear Bryant! Maybe it was the double B thing! Weird, weird stuff.

bluedigger

(17,077 posts)
33. And the most appropriate, I think.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 10:18 AM
Jul 2012

The whole cover-up was driven by JoePa's megalomaniacal quest for the record. Nothing could be allowed to stop that. The record was a product of poisoned fruit.

DrDan

(20,411 posts)
41. I put more blame on those adminstrators
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 10:27 AM
Jul 2012

they could have reigned him in . . . if they wanted to

they just wanted it to go away rather than have to deal with it

bluedigger

(17,077 posts)
49. They were definitely enablers.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 10:59 AM
Jul 2012

They could and should have stopped it, but JoePa had captured them in his orbit. I hope they pursue criminal charges against them, as they should.

Eddie Haskell

(1,628 posts)
54. Blaming the wrong man for the wrong reasons.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 11:25 AM
Jul 2012

I've had it with the DU ... its lynch mob mentality and its postmortem convictions.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
62. Well, nice knowing you (not really--never saw you before today). No "wrong man" was blamed.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 11:57 AM
Jul 2012

Joe Paterno engaged in an active coverup and it has been proven. Jerry Sandusky raped children and it has been proven.

No clue what alternate universe you live in, where Rah-Rah Sports is more important than the safety and security of little kids.

So maybe it's good that you've had it with us--I'm guessing a few of us have had it with you, too, so it's a fair exchange.

 

awoke_in_2003

(34,582 posts)
166. The greatness of Val Kilmer...
Tue Jul 24, 2012, 01:20 AM
Jul 2012

Sam Elliot, and Powers Boothe outweighed the tremendous black hole of suckage that was Bill Paxton. Damn, I hate Bill Paxton, and know it is illogical to feel that way.

FarPoint

(12,209 posts)
167. Val Kilmer should of gotten an Oscar.
Tue Jul 24, 2012, 01:41 AM
Jul 2012

Heck...the movie was fabulous. I even went to visit Tombstone after seeing the movie. Well, also visited my brother and sister in Tuscon as well..but I really wanted to see Tombstone.

Amerigo Vespucci

(30,885 posts)
2. GOOD. To hell with them. Zero accountability means severe punishment.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 09:24 AM
Jul 2012

A message had to be sent, and it has. Next step: Take Paterno's name off of the fucking library.

 

alcibiades_mystery

(36,437 posts)
9. No. It's the Paterno Library
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 09:31 AM
Jul 2012

The Paterno Family foundation built it. They'd also have to take the names off probably 20,000 volumes in that library. Also, an endowed chair in English.

Beowulf

(761 posts)
70. There are 100,000 volumes of children's literature in the Paterno Library
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 12:11 PM
Jul 2012

All the teacher education students, who are mandatory reporters of child abuse, use that library.

TahitiNut

(71,611 posts)
146. I'd monitor the reactions AND the attitudes at PSU over the next 4 years ...
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 07:18 PM
Jul 2012

... and the EXTEND the penalties for as long as the prevalent response is one of whining rather than attending to the horror inflicted on children.

If ANYTHING 'proves' the punishment is insufficient it's the reaction of the acolytes of the Church of Football, focusing on pity for the privileged instead of the children who were RAPED.

 

CANDO

(2,068 posts)
150. The people paying the price are innocent.(Current and future students, players, and fans.)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 08:13 PM
Jul 2012

That's the problem I'm having. And the lynch mob mentality does exist on here. I've seen very few people attempt to defend Paterno or any of the Administrators, only to be painted with the broad brush of enabling a child predator. All Penn State fans/alums/casual attendees of sporting events are and were not aware of or in any way enablers of Sandusky's actions. But those same persons, who number in the hundreds of thousands, are the ones paying the price. So in a strange sort of way, we should all go back and say yeah, Sadam Hussein may not have attacked us on 9/11, but what the hell, he's a rag head and somebody has to pay and it might as well be him. And it'll make us all feel better about the situation. It's the exact same fucking scenario playing out here. Make someone other than those responsible pay the price. Fire away!

FarPoint

(12,209 posts)
153. We are not a lynch mob.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 08:24 PM
Jul 2012

Last edited Tue Jul 24, 2012, 12:05 AM - Edit history (1)

Paterno is guilty of covering for Sandusky while he RAPED little boys.... even in the team locker room shower!

Paterno decided that keeping it a dirty little secret for the sake of the Penn State Football Team "business" was priority.... the children were horribly abused...never comforted after the trauma.....that is the freaken crime!

No lynch mob....no defending offended of the first degree.

 

CANDO

(2,068 posts)
156. Apparently
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 08:49 PM
Jul 2012

you aren't reading the comments like I am. There's no discernment. If you have even so much as a rooting interest in Penn State, you are being punished and cheered on by those who give no shit whether those who committed the crime actually pay or not, just so anything Penn State gets punished. That's a lynch mob.

obamanut2012

(25,911 posts)
159. How teh heck are PSU boosters being "punished" and "lynched"?
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 10:15 PM
Jul 2012

Penn State hasn't had their issued degrees invalidated, right?

obamanut2012

(25,911 posts)
158. Are degrees still being given out? Are classes still ongoing?
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 10:14 PM
Jul 2012

Have students had the dorms and cafeterias and support services razed?

No?

Then no "innocent" is being punished in anyway. They don't need to watch a football game.

TahitiNut

(71,611 posts)
161. "Price"?? What abject, utter nonsense.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 11:25 PM
Jul 2012

It is the rabid herd mentality of the Church of Football congregants, "who number in the hundreds of thousands," which empowered Sandusky, abetted by Paterno and PSU administration in their hunger for the Game Day shekels. It's our society in a microcosm, the subordination of everything else to to Almighty Invisible Hand of economics ... knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing.

Do you think, for even a second, that if it were a Professor of English Literature seen buggering and raping children in University facilities, that it would have taken more than a decade to stop it? Or more than even a week???

The "fans" are a part of the problem, whether they, or you, like it or not.

morningglory

(2,336 posts)
22. I think Paterno deserves whatever they punish him with, but he is dead. There is too much
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 09:50 AM
Jul 2012

letting the dead man take the fall, and go easy on the living parties who may bear guilt. "Now we need to move on..." Nothing to see here. Paterno can not speak for himself. It's all over.

 

AngryAmish

(25,704 posts)
7. How convenient for the NCAA
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 09:30 AM
Jul 2012

I'm sure no one connected to the NCAA will get a job administering this giant slush fund, er sex abuse charity fund.

I head PSU earns about $110 million from sports each year. 13 x 110 = $1.43 billion earned from 98 to 2011. The fine is 4.2 % or so of the income over this time. Terrible blow for children's rights there, sure.

Bottom line: more greedy folks sucking money out of childrens' games.

Piss on them all.

PSU gets to play football, Big Ten network gets 70 cents per month from everyone with cable is Pennsylvania, the wheel turns, people get rich and nobody cares. Oh sure we all bang on about how bad Sandusky is but in the end too many people need this firehose of money.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
14. There are options. Turn off the TV, go watch a high school game.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 09:37 AM
Jul 2012

Or a pee-wee game.

Or volunteer to help kids with special needs enjoy sports, like the Challenger baseball program.

Short of digging up Paterno and lighting his corpse afire, I think they threaded the needle pretty well, here. A one year ban on football would have been nothing compared to this. Taking away their wins was a stroke of genius, IMO.

AngryOldDem

(14,061 posts)
25. I think the vacating of wins is the worst penalty, especially for a school like Penn St.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 09:55 AM
Jul 2012

I admit to being back-and-forth on this issue. But at the end of the day, I don't think the NCAA had any choice but to do what it did. I agree that a long overdue, serious discussion about the behemoth that is college sports needs to be had. That said, I think the NCAA as a governing body, also needs to include itself in that discussion.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
56. I agree--they have a bunch of wealthy Rah-Rah football alumni; and the win-grab was like peeing in
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 11:29 AM
Jul 2012

their cornflakes in a Big Way.

I think it was vicious and delicious justice, actually--much better than forcing them to take a year off.

 

snooper2

(30,151 posts)
23. Upset much? Oh, and the 60 million is the revenue that the were earning from 1 year of football-
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 09:51 AM
Jul 2012

The players can go play anywhere they want with no repercussions and players that want to stay there can keep their existing scholarship as long as they make the grades.


What ya REALLY mad about?

 

joeglow3

(6,228 posts)
48. What should the fine have been?
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 10:53 AM
Jul 2012

You realize there is a difference between gross revenue and net income? A $1.5 BILLION fine would have impacted a LOT more than just the atheletic arm of Penn State.

 

AngryAmish

(25,704 posts)
50. I'm not sure a self serving fine would be appropriate
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 11:12 AM
Jul 2012

There is an entire system and economy set up on the backs of (almost) free labor of the football players at PSU. Hotels, administrators, every person in the athletics department. people who make the jerseys, folks who sell liquor near campus etc.

I would like to burn the whole thing down (metaphorically). Make all of them have to find real jobs. Make them realize that their lives were built on a lie.

I would have banned the football team for five years. Without football PSU athletics is dead.

The fans should learn to find their heroes elsewhere. Or better yet, realize that they are grown men and women and it is unseemly to have heroes when you are older than 15.

 

Iggy

(1,418 posts)
52. I tend to Agree
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 11:16 AM
Jul 2012

many are saying what the NCAA doled out is more severe than the death penalty, but given the huge amount of money
in college football, with several coaches at top schools routinely getting multi-year, multi-million dollar contracts, obv
a strong message needs to be sent: ZERO tolerance for letting any sort of criminal run amok under your watch.

I'm not sure what the NCAA did today accomplishes this

I was hoping for a three year minimum death penalty

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
11. The taking away of wins suggests they were improperly earned.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 09:33 AM
Jul 2012

That would be most appropriate if there were points shaving or other manipulation of scores going on. With the crimes so widely known for so long how could blackmail be avoided? Seems an irresistible opportunity for organized crime.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
64. Of course they were improperly earned--those two clowns should have been in jail, not coaching.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 12:01 PM
Jul 2012

The assistant for rape of children, the boss-coach for being an accessory after the fact to rape of children.

Even without an organized crime element, they shoulda been in the lockup, the two of 'em.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
69. No argument from me about that. None. Zip. Nyet.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 12:09 PM
Jul 2012

Just saying how improbable it seems that the Mob, or someone, didn't move in and blackmail everyone.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
76. Did they really? I read that the abuse was widely rumoured for years.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 12:32 PM
Jul 2012

The sharpies and bookmakers in Vegas have long ears and can smell such opportunities like a thirsty elephant can water.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
93. I will be the first to admit I didn't follow this story until it broke, but I never heard about
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 12:43 PM
Jul 2012

rumors of abuse before that assistant coach's story about the shower and banging the locker door broke.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
116. I don't doubt your word in the slightest--even without the amplifying (and interesting) link,
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 01:49 PM
Jul 2012

it was simply news to me.

VA and MD certainly dodged a huge bullet, didn't they?


When you consider Sandusky was supposed to be in line for Paterno's job and was pursued by Virginia and Maryland in the early '90s, then suddenly vanished from coaching after the 1998 allegation, the puzzle starts to fit together. And the harder it is to believe that the two men charged with perjury were the only ones who knew.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
118. Professional Due Dilligence pre-hire done by UVA or MD would have revealed these problems.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 02:12 PM
Jul 2012

In '98, Sandusky avoided indictment only because of the County Attorney's negligence in refusing to prosecute. Everyone in the Campus PD, the local cops, and the County Att'y's office would have known. See, Timeline for January 1, 1998: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57321248/cops-sandusky-admitted-to-98-shower-with-boy/ More than a few would have recognized the value of such information.

Word travels.

obamanut2012

(25,911 posts)
124. Uva and Maryland wouldn't have touched him
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 03:03 PM
Jul 2012

Both because of legal and moral concerns, and UVA because of their rep.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
133. True. But the fact that PennState continued to grant him access made PSU and its coaches vulnerable
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 04:13 PM
Jul 2012

both legally and to anyone who would blackmail them. In case you might ask, who would possibly want to blackmail or influence a major college football program?





leveymg

(36,418 posts)
139. Well, then, we agree about possible motive. Knowledge of Sandusky's crimes presented opportunity.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 05:43 PM
Jul 2012

That leaves means to commit the crime. I would argue that Vegas can get to anyone they want.

That, unless someone wants to offer an alternative explanation, presents proof of a criminal act. All that's missing is someone to ask the right questions to obtain evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. Judging from the Freeh Report, those issues weren't even explored. Instead, everyone just seems to take the perjured statement of a dead man at face value. Why?

Actually, there are two dead men not talking. Ray Frank Gricar, the County DA who refused to press charges against Sandusky in 1998, disappeared in 2005. He literally got into his car one day, and nobody ever saw him again. They found the car in a parking lot, but not the DA. The Freeh Commission Report doesn’t address this; in fact it doesn’t even mention Gricar by name. Questions about Gricar are prominent by their omission.

Jeff In Milwaukee

(13,992 posts)
15. As a national program, Penn State is about to enter a ten-year sleep....
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 09:38 AM
Jul 2012

During the bowl ban period, the blue chip recruits will go elsewhere. It will take several years after that to rebuild the program.

Did I miss in the article if the NCAA will allow current players to leave the program without the mandatory one-year sitting out period?

calimary

(80,699 posts)
119. Agreed.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 02:29 PM
Jul 2012

Glad the penalties are this severe. I would have gone harder. Guess I'm just in a serious hard-ass mood today (just ask the gun people).

 

The Link

(757 posts)
18. Transfer is allowed without penalty.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 09:41 AM
Jul 2012

As long as remaining eligibility is equal or shorter than the bowl ban.

Jeff In Milwaukee

(13,992 posts)
35. That's good....Punish the guilty, not the innocent
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 10:20 AM
Jul 2012

And of course, allowing the blue chips to leave the program with no penalty will further drive Penn State into the turf.

Not that I'm happy about any of this. I makes me very sad, first for the victims, but also for Joe. And maybe for me, as well.

Even though I never attended Penn State and am not from Pennsylvania (lived there for a year because of work back in the 1990s), I've always had a great deal of respect and admiration for Joe Pa. I'm a huge college football fan, and when people would go on and on about how corrupt college sports are, I could always point to State College and say, "Yeah but what about Joe? Joe runs a clean program." It makes me very sad to see that a guy who I always admired was not the guy I thought he was.

 

HERVEPA

(6,107 posts)
46. Joe campaigned for Republican candidates.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 10:49 AM
Jul 2012

There was no real good reason to think he was anything other than an egomaniac.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
66. Find the pictures of the creep with the GOP bozos and spread 'em around.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 12:03 PM
Jul 2012

Particularly those who are up for reelection!

 

CANDO

(2,068 posts)
19. How many coaches are the most powerfull men on campus?
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 09:42 AM
Jul 2012

I say there are at least 2 dozen men in such a position at other universities. Too much emphasis and power focused on athletics.

ThoughtCriminal

(14,010 posts)
20. If they really wanted to punish the football program
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 09:44 AM
Jul 2012

they would make them play in the Independence Bowl every year.

VWolf

(3,944 posts)
117. LOL It's funny 'cause it's true.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 02:09 PM
Jul 2012

For me, it will forever be known by its once ridiculous name:

"The Poulan Weed-Eater Independence Bowl"

derby378

(30,252 posts)
24. SMU still got hit worse than this
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 09:54 AM
Jul 2012

Southern Methodist got the "death penalty" - but one could argue that what Penn State has to endure is more like leng tche.

Jeff In Milwaukee

(13,992 posts)
40. If I recall correctly...
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 10:23 AM
Jul 2012

SMU received the death penalty for having major violations during a period when they were already on probation. Penn State is on probation for five years, any major violations during that period would probably bring about the same result.

I can't speak for the NCAA (particularly when it's philosophy changes with each new administration), but I think they reserve the death penalty for programs that appear to be institutionally incorrigible. That is, we've put you on probation, but it's still "business as usual" with regard to shady dealings.

rexcat

(3,622 posts)
53. Unfortunetly...
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 11:20 AM
Jul 2012

children were harmed in a most egregious way and in no way did SMU come close to what happened at PSU. IMO PSU should of had the football program shut down for 1-2 years as part of the penalties.

Jeff In Milwaukee

(13,992 posts)
55. But here's the thing...
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 11:29 AM
Jul 2012

The NCAA's charter is to police sports. To make sure they reasonably fair and that the programs are run with a degree of honesty.

What happened at Penn State is a criminal and civil matter that really doesn't involve the football team other than that the perpetrator and enables were in the football program.

If Sandusky was an English Professor and Paterno was Chairman of the English Department, would we be demanding that Penn State no longer offer a degree in English?

MADem

(135,425 posts)
77. No one is telling them they can't play football, for the love of the game.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 12:32 PM
Jul 2012

They just aren't going to be making any Big Money off of it.

You can be damn sure if the English Department put on a fancy Shakespeare festival every Spring, and competed with other schools for the best Shakespeare festival, and there was a ruling body that oversaw the conduct of these Shakespeare festivals and were authorized to sanction irregularities in the program, that if the English Department at Penn State was full of Shakespeare acting directors and stage managers who raped little kids, that the English Department would surely lose their opportunity to host a Shakespeare festival.


And....since when did Penn State ever offer a DEGREE IN FOOTBALL?

Your example just does not cut it.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
138. Not if that Shakespeare Festival was a competitive thing and brought big money to the school.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 05:38 PM
Jul 2012

The Shakespeare Overseers would strip them of their program and give it to another school.

Shakespeare, though, is more portable than football programs.

Paterno failed in his duty to report, and kept silent for a decade and a half. He was part of the problem.

They can have fun playing the equivalent of high-end intramural ball for the next five or more years.

 

Panasonic

(2,921 posts)
26. As an average citizen I don't feel that it is enough
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 09:55 AM
Jul 2012

I think a shutdown of the football program for at least two years. Yes I know it will decimiate what is known as PSU, but consider them the 'lean years'.

And a total removal of any Paterno and Paterno-related items from PSU athletics program completely might knock back a year of the DP.

gopiscrap

(23,674 posts)
42. Tough shit
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 10:31 AM
Jul 2012

the economy arund the campus sucked off of the teat of poisioned fruit. They all turned a blind eye to the stuff that was going on. Nobody ever demonstrated or went on strike etc to force Penn State and the Attorney's to look at this! It wasn't til Paterno got his "record" wins and they were hit with a 2X4 of evidence that anything happened!!! Plus look at the "Paterno" culture in that place..it needs to be eradicated!!!

Evasporque

(2,133 posts)
34. That cat is already out of the bag...
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 10:19 AM
Jul 2012

The fallout from Sandusky/Paterno has pretty much rendered Penn State football broken...that is just starting to become clear to those closest to Penn State football, the fans, the students and the city

The more I think about it the more I think Penn State will pull the program's plug for a while....expect an announcement from PSU Board of Trustees...the signed consent decree was done on some condition stated or implied...

lunatica

(53,410 posts)
27. Wow! I didn't expect anything like this
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 09:59 AM
Jul 2012

They just invalidated more than a decade of legitimate wins for the players. As a person who was sexually molested when I was six years old, I think punishing those who didn't have anything to do with the original crime or the coverup of it is harsh.

This is certainly a message for all those pedophile enablers though. Maybe it will serve a higher purpose.

 

Suji to Seoul

(2,035 posts)
32. the record books will still say victory, but it's done to punish paterno for his cover-up
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 10:17 AM
Jul 2012

this is worse than point shaving or recruit tampering. his problem sanctioned rape and molestation.

paterno rots in hell, and his records are now gone from the ncaa.

lunatica

(53,410 posts)
36. What about the football players?
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 10:20 AM
Jul 2012

Now they're records are forever tainted too. Like I said, it's essential for the criminals to be punished, but why punish those who had nothing, and I mean nothing to do with the crimes?

It's sad that they're added to the victims list now. It's not clean. But of course it may not be able to ever be clean.

These crimes just keep hurting people who had nothing to do with them. Corrupt leadership shouldn't reflect on the little people, but unfortunately it does. That's not true justice.

As a victim myself I would never dream of holding the family or employees of the perpetrator accountable unless they knowingly enabled him. That's not justice. And in a very real way they're victims too.

 

Suji to Seoul

(2,035 posts)
39. unfortunately, what can the ncaa do when they come down on a program? the players always suffer
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 10:23 AM
Jul 2012

unfair, but so is life.

AngryOldDem

(14,061 posts)
47. That's why I'm struggling with this.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 10:51 AM
Jul 2012

A lot of players who had no connection whatsoever with this, or with anyone involved (other than Paterno, and that was a coach-player relationship) are being penalized. Those who are guilty are gone from the school. There was no evidence of any systemic wrongdoing that affected play on the field.

Add to that the damage that will be done to State College businesses that rely on games to generate revenue. And current players, who are basically screwed. Colleges have their rosters set for this season. It's not like PSU players can pick up and find someplace else to play at this late date, unless they want to become walk-ons and have to pay for it, or go to a lower-tier school and do the same. They have to get through this season.

I truly don't know what the best answer is, and it is incredible that all this came about because of one sick and twisted man. Many suffer for the actions of one.

This is my NO means diminishing what the victims and their families went through. But I don't see what true good it does to punish those who are innocent, which is what all this is doing.

Springslips

(533 posts)
113. That's life.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 01:30 PM
Jul 2012

Innocent people get hurt when others are punished all the time. Ask accountants at Arther Anderson, who never worked on the Enron case, if they should have lost their jobs. Murderers go to jail and their innocent children suffer. This is how it works.

When people cover-up crimes to protect a thing, the people should be punished and the thing that was protected must be punished. That way even sacrificing yourself for the thing will not save the thing in the end.

It sad for the innocent indeed, but players can transfer. Their is some hurt to them, but not that much.

 

Suji to Seoul

(2,035 posts)
168. Student athletes being students first and athletes second? Nah. . .throwing a football is more
Wed Jul 25, 2012, 03:55 AM
Jul 2012

important, and dribbling a basketball is more important, than an actual education. American Idol taught me that!

MADem

(135,425 posts)
74. Players don't have "wins." Teams do. Players score touchdowns and accumulate yards, and sack QBs
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 12:26 PM
Jul 2012

and so forth.

Those stats don't go away. The wins that were awarded to the team are vacated, not all the associated statistics that accrue to individuals.

And sorry--they aren't "victims." The victims are the kids who got raped by that Sandusky perv, who was aided in his activities by his cover-up buddy Paterno.

If those players who are out of school aren't in the NFL by now, they never will be. They got their educations. That's the purpose of going to university--to be educated. Playing a foolish little fall game is a sideline. And if it's not regarded as such, it should be.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
59. I don't think they will. I think record books from this day forward will give the wins to others.NT
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 11:38 AM
Jul 2012

MADem

(135,425 posts)
57. Those wins were not legitimate, though--a guy who should have been in jail and an accessory after
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 11:37 AM
Jul 2012

the fact were coaching that team. Had they been brought to justice, it would have been a different crew coaching--and that might have made a difference.

bulloney

(4,113 posts)
28. The USA Today article contradicts itself regarding taking away wins from Paterno's record.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 10:03 AM
Jul 2012

First, the article says:
The loss of victories means Joe Paterno is no longer major college football's winningest coach. He was fired in November during the scandal after 409 wins at the school. That total is now officially 298. One victory last season came under interim coach Tom Bradley.

But, toward the end, it says:
Paterno's 409 wins and two national titles remain intact, but his statue is gone, his reputation is irreparably scarred and the program he built during a 61-year career, 46 as head coach, is left to deal with harsh NCAA sanctions and the pending rulings of ongoing investigations.

Well, what is it?

SidDithers

(44,228 posts)
51. Some of the story was probably written before the ruling...
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 11:13 AM
Jul 2012

and didn't get changed before being published.

The wins are vacated. Paterno's career mark is 298 victories.

Sid

AllyCat

(16,035 posts)
44. So this is what happens when we actually punish wrongdoing by large groups
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 10:36 AM
Jul 2012

(dare I say a corporation?)

Sancho

(9,065 posts)
60. Good job NCAA...hell, maybe we should put the NCAA in charge of Wall Street...
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 11:41 AM
Jul 2012

logical, appropriate, and quick justice.

Poll_Blind

(23,864 posts)
63. First, I'm not a football fan and originally I thought the death penalty was appropriate. But...
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 12:00 PM
Jul 2012

...after looking over what the NCAA handed down, I think I'm OK with it. Obviously, the NCAA is not the judicial system, etc. There are cases that are being worked through there and there are many, many penalties to be levied individually or collectively in the future.

I think if you actually watch the NCAA press conference or look at a point by point of what the penalties are, including the NCAA's reservation of potentially more punishments after criminal litigation is completed, they are (IMO) a fairly elegant combination of penalties which hurt things which needed to be hurt and somewhat shielded things (like students and players) which needed to be shielded.

I don't see this as a slap on the wrist. I see this as a highly-tailored rebuke to the disgusting behavior of Penn State leadership in the commission and willful coverup of, let's face it, the most heinous crime.

The only thing I don't think I agree with is the reduction of scholarships from 25 to 15. I think they should have reduced that to 5 or done away with them entirely for some period.

PB

MADem

(135,425 posts)
67. I think you threaded the needle very nicely, there. It is, indeed, a tailored rebuke!
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 12:06 PM
Jul 2012

They may have tailored (to continue a theme) the scholarship reduction to ones that have been awarded to freshmen entering this coming fall. Again, why punish the kids for the actions of the adults?

BrendaBrick

(1,296 posts)
65. Hopefully even more justice will prevail
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 12:02 PM
Jul 2012

as per the last paragraph:

"With the NCAA verdict handed down, Penn State still could face further punitive measures. The Department of Justice and U.S. Department of Education are conducting investigations into the school's actions in relation to the scandal."

SomeGuyInEagan

(1,515 posts)
162. Big Ten has yet to weigh in, as well.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 11:48 PM
Jul 2012

There could be more coming from the conference, though certainly nothing compared to what the NCAA has already dealt out.

Historyprof77132

(31 posts)
71. I may get pummelled for this
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 12:14 PM
Jul 2012

but I don't think this was necessary. Sandusky is in jail, Paterno is dead. Why is the NCAA punishing players, past and future, that had nothing to do with this? Why are they keeping college football players for Penn State from playing in the post season because of a horrible coaching staff. I just think that this is overkill. I agree with some of it, but I think the NCAA went overboard for appearances.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
73. The players are not being punished. You need to read the ruling. The players are being protected.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 12:18 PM
Jul 2012

They can even switch schools if they'd like, with no penalties for so doing.

This is not overkill. This is appropriate. Restrained, even.

Historyprof77132

(31 posts)
81. Having to vacate wins punishes past players
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 12:34 PM
Jul 2012

This had nothing to do with what happened on the field. Vacating wins implies cheating and obtaining the wins in an illegitimate fashion. That didn't happen here. The people responsible have been punished, I just think the NCAA did this for appearances.

Historyprof77132

(31 posts)
89. Well it would piss me off
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 12:40 PM
Jul 2012

if I spent my college career working my ass off to help a program win only to find out they had to surrender the victories. It may not physically punish them, but it has to carry some bitterness.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
90. No it doesn't. It doesn't change the yards they ran, the touchdowns they scored, the interceptions
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 12:41 PM
Jul 2012

they made.

TEAMS win games. Not individuals. Their individual stats remain intact.

Gormy Cuss

(30,884 posts)
106. Protecting a pedophile for the sake of a football team=winning illegitimately.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 01:14 PM
Jul 2012

That's exactly what happened here. The NCAA is sending a clear message.

rexcat

(3,622 posts)
79. I won't pummel you but I think you are wrong...
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 12:34 PM
Jul 2012

The institution (PSU) knew of this situation from the top down and did nothing about it for years. Children were harmed in an extreme way. The culture of PSU needs to be changed but to ensure change sanctions need to be put in place. Personally I don't think the NCAA went far enough. The football program should have been shut down for 1-2 years IMO along with the other penalties, not only as a warning to PSU but to ever other college athletic program in the country. This type of behavior should not be allowed to stand!

Historyprof77132

(31 posts)
86. I understand the sentiment behind the ruling
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 12:38 PM
Jul 2012

I'm just skeptical of it. I'm not a big fan of punishing just for the sake of punishing or to look tough in front of the public.

rexcat

(3,622 posts)
92. My perspective comes from working in pediatrics...
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 12:42 PM
Jul 2012

and having seen child abuse. It has left an indelible mark on me. There is no punishment great enough for the perpetrators or the institutions who enabled the perpetrators.

Historyprof77132

(31 posts)
94. I guess I am looking at this too much from the standpoint of a player
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 12:45 PM
Jul 2012

but I see where you are coming from and don't think I don't understand how disgusting this was.

rexcat

(3,622 posts)
140. From the reports...
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 06:14 PM
Jul 2012

it looks like any of the current players on the team can transfer to other without penalty so there is no harm done to them. If they want to stay at PSU they can and will play this year and the next three years after that but won't be playing post-season. The harm done to the boys who were sexually molested can't be undone!

Poll_Blind

(23,864 posts)
87. I suppose for some people it's never a big deal until their child is raped.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 12:39 PM
Jul 2012

Please excuse the graphic imagery but that is the crime we're talking about, here. We're not talking about Sandusky stealing a child's bike and the Penn State leadership and Joe Paterno covering for him while he rides it.

Habitual child rape and institutional coverups of same is a big deal in some parts. In most parts, actually. Maybe not your neck of the woods, but...

Why is the NCAA punishing players, past and future, that had nothing to do with this?

Past players aren't penalized, neither are present or future players. The NCAA was very specific about voiding wins for coaching, only, and also made it very clear that present players can jump ship without penalties or stay onboard at Penn and continue a sports scholarship, even if they refuse to play on the football team.

Why are they keeping college football players for Penn State from playing in the post season because of a horrible coaching staff.

Because the leadership at Penn State (not just the coaching staff) was responsible for intentionally covering up for habitual child rape.

I just think that this is overkill. I agree with some of it, but I think the NCAA went overboard for appearances.

If you really hold those opinions, I think you should explain in more detail, specifically, which penalties you feel were showboating and which were appropriate.

PB

Response to Poll_Blind (Reply #87)

Historyprof77132

(31 posts)
98. I'm not defending the institution use your gray matter and read my posts. I have never
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 12:48 PM
Jul 2012

defended Paterno nor anyone else who let this happen. I was in favor of letting people walk by and piss on his statue before they removed it.

 

CANDO

(2,068 posts)
155. The "entire culture" exists today at dozens of universities across the land.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 08:41 PM
Jul 2012

Shut them ALL the FUCK down! Alabama, Ohio State, USC, Notre Dame, Texas. All of them! I attended exactly 3 Penn State games and by your words "entire culture", I am a child rapist enabler. That is exactly where the lynch mob comes into play. It's so goddamned easy hiding behind the lashing out to protect children mantra. It allows you and many others to go all lynch mob and accuse people such as myself of enabling child rape. Where is your shame in that? Shame on you.

Poll_Blind

(23,864 posts)
97. Editied my previous post. My point was how can you complain about the ruling given the...
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 12:47 PM
Jul 2012

...heinous nature of the crime? Kids were being raped, habitually by Sandusky, and Penn State leadership and Paterno knowingly covered for him.

It's difficult to put down a firewall between the program and the crime when so much of the leadership was involved. 90+ percent of the NCAA's ruling is not about Sandusky, it's about the other supportive actions by institutional players at Penn State, like Paterno.

Paterno and Sandusky weren't the only people involved in this as the Freeh Report shows and as ongoing criminal and civil cases proceeed.

The whole barrel was rotten.

PB

IggleDoer

(1,186 posts)
121. The whole barrel was rotten.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 02:50 PM
Jul 2012

And the administration threw the deceased coach under the bus.

Why aren't they resigning or being fired?

obamanut2012

(25,911 posts)
129. Oh, just wait
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 03:24 PM
Jul 2012

Civil suits and Federal investigations. Lots of people will be resigning and being fired.

And. Patreno wasn't thrown under the bus. He was guilty as sin.

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
144. Paterno wasn't thrown under the bus..his hubris kept him from seeing he was in the crosswalk. nt
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 06:43 PM
Jul 2012

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
75. Should have closed their football program for a little while at least.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 12:31 PM
Jul 2012

That whole community, from the ground up, has an unhealthy reverence for their little game. Nuke it. Let the community re-gain some perspective, like, protecting children is more important than having a winning fucking football team.

Posteritatis

(18,807 posts)
80. Given the campus' attitude...
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 12:34 PM
Jul 2012

... I'm not sure if I would want to bet against their not doing something to violate their probation in the next few years, at which point they'll lose it anyway.

When there's students actually trying to claim that the school got "raped" by the NCAA over this, and when the university's tried to maintain a blackout on coverage of things on campus, their attitudes haven't come close to sufficiently changing yet.

Basically, give it time. They've been given a chance here, but I imagine they'll screw it up.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
85. They'll have far less reverence when all their good players run like hell to other schools.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 12:38 PM
Jul 2012

Their team will be full of third rate players, and they will start losing games. They'll have to learn to support a losing team for the sake of school spirit, not because of that whole Foam Finger We're Number One bullshit. The equipment will be less shiny, the amenities less impressive, and the whole effort will be more "old school."

That will be a good thing.

Maybe they can highlight their soccer team, or women's basketball, or some other team that has been neglected over the years.

Locrian

(4,522 posts)
101. I had wanted suspension
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 01:02 PM
Jul 2012

But I agree with your post - I think the punishment hits the zealots hard, and keeps a 'token' program that won't be anywhere near it's 'glory days'. Which is a good thing. It's was the whole 'football is god' thing which caused a lot of the cover up.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
112. We'll see how hard they cheer when Klutz McShoelacetrip and Pudge O'Waddler take the field
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 01:29 PM
Jul 2012

to be beaten like rented mules by competing teams with better talent and esprit de corps.


It will be a good lesson in both humility and priorities, I think.


I'm surprised at how much I think the NCAA got this right. And since there's a probationary aspect to this punishment, if the school, the boosters, or the team, step out of line, the boom can be lowered anew. They really are operating with a serious ball and chain around their collective ankle!

Evasporque

(2,133 posts)
111. I would imagine Penn State games will be monetary losses....home and away...
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 01:23 PM
Jul 2012

It may be that PSU (Board of Trustees) will opt to defer the seasons during the bowl ban...

It will be more costly to run a crippled program than shutting it down for four years and rebuilding....

The community will survive and football can return to Penn State with a fresh start and would be welcomed back.

That is honourable thing to do.

BrendaBrick

(1,296 posts)
100. Excellent ESPN clip with Desmond Howard,
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 12:53 PM
Jul 2012

ESPN College Football Analyst:

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=8191596 (about 5 1/2 minutes)

I especially like his point from about 2:20 - 4:01.

 

amandabeech

(9,893 posts)
125. Desmond Howard knows better than most people what "it" is.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 03:04 PM
Jul 2012

He won the Heisman while playing for the University of Michigan, and was a Superbowl MVP.

He's been there.

 

amandabeech

(9,893 posts)
141. Yes, so did I. I think that ESPN made a wise move by hiring him.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 06:23 PM
Jul 2012

U-Mich does have a big time sports program, but they have very good academics as well.

Not all athletes can make it through the academic program, and that limits Michigan's recruiting. It's not Stanford or Northwestern, but it is like UC Berkley, UCLA, U-Virginia and U-North Carolina. All have had some good teams in football or basketball ( and in Michigan, hockey) over the years, but they have a more difficult time than some big sports universities in putting together consistently a string of championship performances, particularly Berkley.

 

taught_me_patience

(5,477 posts)
102. The scholarship reductions will have the worst impact to the team
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 01:03 PM
Jul 2012

They are going to suck for the next seven to ten years. There is no way the coach survives this.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
103. Who would want to play there for the next seven to ten years?
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 01:07 PM
Jul 2012

Like it or not, the snarkmeisters are going to call Penn State "Pedo State" for quite some time.

Who wants to go to a school with that reputation?

Those NCAA scholarships likely will not go away, they'll just be distributed to other schools.

 

dballance

(5,756 posts)
104. I am sick of the cult-like worship of football
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 01:07 PM
Jul 2012

And it is football that gets that cult more than basketball. The cult extends to the alumni and the community. In this case it became the identity of the community and the school. How many Rhodes Scholars has Penn State produced? How many break-through research discoveries? It is there for education you know. Not really for the grooming of one or two players to get into the NFL at the expense of the other thousands of people who attend the school just to get a degree.

I grew up in a small town and the high school football had the cult worship of the town and the school much like with Penn State. Fortunately the school wasn't making millions off TV coverage so I doubt anything like Sandusky would ever happen there. But it's the cult.

The football team never lacked for anything. New workout equipment, new uniforms, new athletic equipment of any kind. That didn't extend to other groups in the school. I was in the band. Before you go all "you're just a bitter band nerd" let me say yes, I am.

We were the ones selling candles, selling candy bars, selling light bulbs and all manner of crap to raise funds so we could take a trip to march at Disney World or march in parades in other cities.

No football player ever lifted a finger to sell anything to get them any of the stuff they got.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
107. Apparently the "GLEE" culture is giving the football fanatics a run for their money.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 01:16 PM
Jul 2012

Also, as more and more reports come out about the damage done to youngsters as a consequence of concussion, that has a real and devastating effect on them, even more so in their later years, football is slowly losing its cachet.

Some parents (and kids) are simply saying that the glory isn't worth it.

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/7601017/study-impact-kids-football-head-hits-severe-college-games


Butler's move comes on the same day that a team of researchers at Virginia Tech and Wake Forest universities released the first-ever study that measures head impacts among youth football players. The study found that unlike in high school and college football, most of the severe hits in youth football occurred during practices.


http://www.doctoroz.com/blog/michael-neely-do/dangers-high-school-football-concussions


More troubling is a new release by the American Association of Pediatrics, which reveals that although participation in organized sports among 13-17-year-olds has shrunk by half over the last 10 years, the rate of concussions has more than doubled. Furthermore, any athlete who is still suffering from the symptoms of a concussion is at risk for “second-hit syndrome.” Playing with a concussion is dangerous. A second concussion occurring before the first has healed can result in brain hemorrhaging and sudden death.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
109. They aren't the "winningest" team, and Paterno et.al. not the "winningest" coaches.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 01:22 PM
Jul 2012

It's akin to saying they cheated.

And they did.

If Paterno had done the right thing, Sandusky would not have been left to abuse children, and Paterno would not have become an accessory to Sandusky's crimes.

Paterno, instead, engaged in the cover-up of a crime against children, and had he been brought to account for his concealment of these crimes, along with the rapist Sandusky, instead of continuing on and hiding the truth, he would not have been coaching that team--someone else would have.

obamanut2012

(25,911 posts)
132. I have decided this is better than the death penalty
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 03:38 PM
Jul 2012

As MADem said, the community has to learn some humility by supporting a team that will, definitely after this season, be compiled of young men who have no chance of playing any pro ball. This will be compounded if they are tossed from the Big Ten. Which I think they will be.

A total lack of a program would be like a tooth that's gone -- your tongue keeps poking into the hole. This gives less chance of being martyrs, and I personally think it will hurt Penn football way more than a year or two of death would.

The best part, the genius stroke? Taking Paterno's wins away.

Have you seen "We Are Marshall"? That's what the Nittany Lions will look like in a couple years, but not because most of a team and coaching staff died in a plane crash. Because the team will be full of boys who otherwise wouldn't play, or who would play on so-called "inferior" teams.

Soccer and rugby games are fun to watch. You can even tailgate.

I admit I think "big money" sports have no place at a university. Universities shouldn't be NFL farm leagues. Actually, many programs, like Penn State's, act like they already are NFL teams.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
152. I disagree... sort of
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 08:20 PM
Jul 2012

First, I find the idea that athletics dominates so many "institutes of higher learning" to be abhorrent. I think the university system would be vastly better without that aspect.

However... that's the situation at hand. And football is not what abused those kids.

jmowreader

(50,452 posts)
154. Not enough
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 08:28 PM
Jul 2012

I would have kicked Penn State out of the NCAA for ten years, vacated every win Paterno had from the beginning of his career and fined them the total football revenue from the day Sandusky was first observed committing pederasty until the day they canned Joe Paterno.

DonCoquixote

(13,615 posts)
157. Students
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 10:07 PM
Jul 2012

Yes, some students will have their football careers damaged, though frankly, not much if the schools that compete with Penn are smart. I am sure that many will have offers to transfer as we speak.

However, lest we forget, Colleges are there to TEACH the young people to be better adults. Not just sneakier adults, not just adults that can get a littler more money. Anything less than a complete, uncompromising rebuke of Joe Pa will teach the kids that the object in life is not to get caught. Sadly, there are already enough places where America teaches young people that lesson; it is why Romney is not a complete shut out. We need to start teaching something very, very contrary to United States values; namely, if you do evil in the name of a noble goal, you still do evil.

SomeGuyInEagan

(1,515 posts)
163. Wonderful post.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 11:58 PM
Jul 2012

Penn State's football program coverup is more an example of what has become American "exceptionalism" and ideals than an oddity. We can do better.

gauguin57

(8,138 posts)
164. NCAA sanctions did absolutely nothing to punish the people responsible.
Tue Jul 24, 2012, 12:24 AM
Jul 2012

Instead, they'll be punishing -- for YEARS -- those who had nothing to do with the Sandusky crimes or coverup.

There are crimes, absolutely. There was a coverup. Absolutely. But the entire former coaching staff is gone, and of the six men implicated in the crimes and coverup: one is dead, one is in jail for life, one has been fired and may face prosecution, two are fired and already facing prosecution and one has been fired and is not facing prosecution, probably because he was the whistleblower (McQueary).

NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THOSE MEN WAS PUNISHED BY THESE SANCTIONS.

Meanwhile, a bunch of student athletes who have committed themselves to a university, and have been practicing for months, have been punished. Sandusky was long gone before they first held a football.

The businesses of State College are going to be hurt economically; I know some of those business owners, and if they'd had an inkling that Sandusky was doing what he was doing, they'd have beaten the crap out of him and dragged him into the police station personally. But they're going to be hurt badly by these sanctions.

And who knows where those fines are going to come from. Will students be hurt by that, academically -- by the loss of scholarships or academic programs or something? Who in the goddamn hell does THAT benefit? If that happens, the NCAA will have REALLY punished the wrong people!

So, if you see some PSU fans are upset, it's not because we don't care about the abused kids (we Penn Staters are probably even more sickened and disgusted by it than outsiders are, because it happened on the campus of OUR alma mater, and involved a coach we thought, for years, was someone else entirely). It's also not because we worship Joe Paterno, or because we think Penn State shouldn't be punished in some way.

It's because the wrong people are being punished, and the right people AREN'T being punished by these sanctions.

In addition, the NCAA is full of crap when it says Penn State's football program ignored its academic mission. A small group of men ignored basic human morality -- BOY DID THEY EVER! -- but the football program DID NOT abandon its academic mission. On the contrary, it has one of the highest (if not THE highest) graduations rates in college football. Academics were always very important to the football program -- that was the whole point of Joe Paterno's "Grand Experiment" -- to emphasize academics along with athletics.

I'm sick of people accusing Penn Staters of ignoring the plight of those abused kids, just because we feel justice may not have been served in the appropriate way through these particular sanctions.

Penn State will survive this, and rise from the ashes someday better than ever. It is, was, and always shall be a great place to get an education. And, maybe, someday, it'll have a good football team again. Hopefully, the football program will continue to emphasize academics the way Paterno did.

The culture needed to change, but THAT PART of the culture SHOULDN'T change.



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