Tesla Just Passed GM to Become Top U.S. Carmaker
Source: Bloomberg.com
Elon Musks Tesla Inc. surpassed General Motors Co. to become Americas most valuable carmaker, eclipsing a company whose well-being was once viewed as interdependent with the nations.
Tesla climbed as much as 3.7 percent in early Monday trading, boosting its market capitalization to $51 billion. The company was valued at about $1.7 billion more than GM as of 9:35 a.m. in New York and the two have jostled for the lead spot in subsequent trading.
The turnabout shows the extent to which investors have bought into Musks vision that electric vehicles will eventually rule the road. While GM has beat Tesla to market with a plug-in Chevrolet Bolt with a price and range similar to what Musk has promised for his Model 3 sedan coming later this year, the more than century-old company has failed to match the enthusiasm drummed up by its much smaller and rarely profitable U.S. peer.
Tesla engenders optimism, freedom, defiance, and a host of other emotions that, in our view, other companies cannot replicate, said Alexander Potter, an analyst at Piper Jaffray Cos., who upgraded the stock Monday after owning a Tesla for seven months and meeting with management. As they scramble to catch up, we think Teslas competitors only make themselves appear more desperate.
Read more: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-04-10/tesla-passes-gm-as-musk-s-carmaker-becomes-america-s-top-valued
Tesla Motors is an all Electric car company
bigworld
(1,807 posts)Great concept, yeah, but when was the last time you saw a Tesla on the road?
I _want_ to believe in what they are doing, but more valuable than GM in the real world? I have a hard time believing that.
SHRED
(28,136 posts)At least.
Plucketeer
(12,882 posts)Preston Tucker's gotta be grinning broadly from on high.
exboyfil
(17,862 posts)I honestly think their is meat between the buns. Enron was just a shell game.
That is not to say that the stock is overpriced - probably horribly so.
Yavin4
(35,437 posts)They would literally think of a business concept and then report the profits from it on their books.
RobinA
(9,888 posts)that anything run by Musk is other than a shell game.
Aristus
(66,316 posts)Of course, I live in the Pacific Northwest. We love our living environment.
You're not likely to see a Tesla driving around in East Slagheap, Kentucky...
lapfog_1
(29,199 posts)It's hard to commute from anywhere east of Livermore to Silicon Valley without seeing a bunch of Teslas in front of you.
UpInArms
(51,280 posts)they are amazing (per him - he is an engineering student and helped build S&T's solar car last year)
hunter
(38,310 posts)Last week I was caught next to a Tesla in about twelve miles of stop-and-go traffic. I'd pass it, it would pass me.
Assuming it was charged the night before, it was running on a mix of hydroelectric and nuclear power, with some wind and natural gas mixed in. Except for a few Priuses and other hybrids, most of the rest of us were driving cars with gasoline engines running in their least efficient mode.
I don't think a Tesla or other electric cars solve any problems, however. The problem is our car culture. We ought to be rebuilding our cities and higher density suburbs in such a way that most people don't need or desire to own a car.
Instead of building and expanding urban and suburban freeways, we ought to be tearing them down and letting the cards fall where they may. The problem with freeways today is that if you build or expand them the cars will come.
I was reading about the Alaskan Way Viaduct replacement in Seattle the other day, about the giant tunneling machine Bertha breaking through to daylight, and I was thinking the best solution might have been to simply remove all traces of the dangerous earthquake damaged highway, and not replace it with *any* accommodation for automobiles.
When my wife and I met we were both Los Angeles commuters. I remember days it would take me more than an hour to get to or from work, days it was faster to ride my bicycle, but only if I cared to risk my life. (Los Angeles drivers are notoriously unaware of bicycles and pedestrians...)
By some planning and greater good fortune my wife and I have been able to avoid the commuter lifestyle since the mid 'nineties, but we still own cars. Unless you live in the heart of a big city like San Francisco, a place with adequate public transportation, you're not considered a fully functional adult in our society if you don't have a car. In my community if you don't have a car people assume you are blind, epileptic, or have too many DUI's.
jmowreader
(50,553 posts)There's one in Spokane and I saw one at the CDA Supercharger a few weeks ago.
They look like Hyundais from the side and this area is thick with those so maybe I've seen more; it's hard to know you should worship one unless you see the badges on the back.
byronius
(7,393 posts)Model S, even a few of the prototypes for the 3, although I don't know how those people got them.
The Roadsters, though, are only thick in Mountain View.
Puzzler
(2,505 posts)... in Victoria, BC, Canada. But in fairness, I don't see many.
-Puzzler
TexasProgresive
(12,157 posts)Maybe the comparison to ENRON is not a stretch.
Historic NY
(37,449 posts)Lots of stumbling blocks put in their path. Telsa's are hard to pick out because they look like a couple other models Jaguar, Austin Martin.
http://www.houstonchronicle.com/local/explainer/article/texas-law-tesla-franchise-dealership-electric-cars-7940158.php
Dave Starsky
(5,914 posts)And I've noticed Teslas even less.
Maybe I'm just hanging around in the steak and lobster neighborhoods you all seem to consort in.
Historic NY
(37,449 posts)jmowreader
(50,553 posts)They ALSO look like a Ford Fusion, a Chevy Cruze, a Chevy Volt, a Hyundai Elantra and a VW Passat.
n2doc
(47,953 posts)Tesla is a niche ripe for the plundering. They will spend all the money getting electric cars and infrastructure ready. Then cheaper alternatives will push them out. Has happened over and over.
Anyone who thinks their new car will be actually available for under 40K is fooling themselves.
okwmember
(345 posts)and they are all over the road here. I see at least 4 regularly at my son's high school. I guess they are more abundant depending on location.
edhopper
(33,570 posts)for GM is 9, for Ford it's 5.
Tesla is still in negative earning numbers and it's projected PE is 400.
The stock price reflects an unrealistic expectation of growth.
hunter
(38,310 posts)I don't think anyone is questioning the viability of amazon anymore.
Amazon's 2016 PE was 183 in 2016, and it's expected to fall to 40 by 2019.
Apple has a PE of 17.
Fortunately I don't live in an economic strata where people care about such things. I carry a shit load medical debt (in spite of having "good" medical insurance most of my life), can't care about my credit rating anymore, and drive an $800 car with a salvage title.
edhopper
(33,570 posts)doesn't mean the stock price is good.That is based on future growth. And Amazon might be overpirced where that is concerned.
Telsa seems to be.
bigworld
(1,807 posts)and then the pundits will be all, see, electric cars are merely a scam!
melm00se
(4,990 posts)if they, actually, turned a profit.
they have lost $1.8 billion in the last 3 years.
Demsrule86
(68,546 posts)Baclava
(12,047 posts)The market cares more about the potential new market value of the other businesses Tesla is in than about real profits and cash flow, said David Whiston, an analyst at Morningstar Inc. Right now there is nothing to slow Teslas momentum. They could pass Honda, too.
Tesla has long been treated like a technology stock with investors betting on its ability to dominate a market for electric cars and energy storage.
Tesla delivered fewer than 80,000 vehicles globally last year to GMs more than 10 million
GM expects to earn more than $9 billion this year and analysts predict Ford will generate adjusted profit of about $6.3 billion.
On that basis, Tesla is expected to lose more than $950 million.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-04-10/tesla-passes-gm-as-musk-s-carmaker-becomes-america-s-top-valued
Plucketeer
(12,882 posts)you might see the right things going on.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/10141748557
PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,845 posts)that implies they make more cars than anyone else.
I've lived in different parts of the country, so I'm well aware that different car breeds are popular in different places. Volvos in Minnesota. Subarus in Colorado. Mercedes and Rolls Royces in Phoenix.
I currently live in Santa Fe, and I personally know one person who owns one, I haven't actually seen her Tesla in real life. We're not close friends.
When they become common as Hondas or Toyotas, or maybe Kias (I'm seeing more of them every day) then I'll concede the "top carmaker" title to them. Until you can buy a new one for about 20k, maybe less, they won't be out there for the average person whose real income is dropping every year.
However, I can express some regret about not owning Tesla stock.
Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,845 posts)my yearly income even the least expensive version of a Tesla is, but unless they get significantly cheaper, we'll never see that many of them on the road, save in places where people have very large incomes. Just like we'll never see lots of Rolls Royces or Jaguars.
Of course, other companies make hybrid cars, and I know a fair number of people who own them, but most of us are still driving, and will continue to drive into the foreseeable future, cars that run strictly on gas. Plus a tiny percent that are diesel.
modrepub
(3,494 posts)One point everyone overlooks is cost per mile. If and when electric cars become cheaper than conventional then I think the paradigm is flipped and electric cars become the winner. That said I have no idea what it costs to own a Tesla for 100k+, which is what I usually do with the cars I've owned in the last 3 to 4 decades (my record is 300k+ miles for my Chev Prism). Electric cars are supposed to have lower maintenance cost so the cost is up front and not on the back end.
As an example, I've tracked all my costs for my TDI Passat (that I bought used for $26k in 2015). Got it for the gas mileage and based on my crappy commuting patterns (~70 miles per day). I've currently put on about 90k miles and my total car costs are over $46k for an approximate cost of $0.50/mile. I will say that I'm due to get back $21.4k for the car as part of the VW Diesel Settlement so my cost per mile at the end will not be typical.
Living near Philly, I see a Tesla every once in awhile. Sharp looking cars; I especially like their night lighting pattern. Hope to own one before my body and vision make driving untenable.
PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,845 posts)my brother-in-law suggested doing an estimate of how much per-mile I'd wind up paying, although that was only based on the cost of the car and didn't figure in cost of gas or maintenance.
So if I buy a car for $100,000, and I drive it 200,000 miles, that comes to (again without fuel or maintenance costs included) to $.50/mile. Not bad, except that if I buy a car for $10,000 (the cost of the one I'm currently driving) and drive it 100,000 miles (approximately what I've put on so far), that works out to ten cents per mile. One fifth the cost of the other. Even if the electricity to run the $100k car is totally free, and unless gas gets over $10/gallon, it's hard to imagine that the first one will wind up costing less than the second.
The starting price is huge. I normally pay cash for my cars (actually, I've always paid cash for my cars) and there is no way I'll ever have the cash for a Tesla. A used Honda or Kia, that I can come up with the cash for.
modrepub
(3,494 posts)I understand your point but I can easily find a conventianal car that's $100k so what does that say about cost per mile? I'd love to have that information on cost per mile for a Tesla compared to something comparable. Maybe electric cars are a fad but unless you believe in abiotic oil at some point we will be forced to find alternatives. Better to let the economics run their course but my personal opinion is long term oil exploitation/exploration is a ponzi scheme. With Porsche getting into the game I only see costs for electric cars coming down. Can you say that about conventional cars?
PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,845 posts)suggesting that Teslas, or other such super-expensive cars will somehow become common, escapes me. Any car that costs $100k is going to have a far, far higher cost per mile than one that costs a tenth that.
Your point probably is more that electric cars will become more common, but it won't be thanks to Tesla. It will be thanks to Honda and Toyota and Ford other lower-end companies getting into the game.
The last I ever knew about all electric cars was that they couldn't go all that far, maybe a couple of hundred miles, between recharges. Since I regularly go on road trips much longer than that, I need a car that will drive several hundred miles, and can be refilled/recharged in a few minutes, and off I go again. The hybrids are actually that way. A friend who recently got a hybrid Lexus loves it, but notices that mileage in city driving is noticeably better than mileage on the highway, the opposite of conventional cars.
I don't begrudge that others can spend six figures on a car. Their money, their choice how to spend it. As it is, most people spend far too much money on their cars. Anyone who is upside down on a car loan is a total idiot. I keep on hearing about someone who was in that situation, got into a wreck, now owe more on the car than the insurance paid off, so they have to pay off that car while buying another. My sympathy for those in such a situation is pretty minimal. I know that's rather far afield from our above exchange.
Zorro
(15,737 posts)A Tesla in everyone's garage wasn't Musk's goal; his goal since the beginning was to get other manufacturers to build vehicles powered from more sustainable energy sources.
And from press reports about commitments being made by BMW, VW, Mercedes, Ford, and Porsche to build electric cars, I believe he has succeeded.
PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,845 posts)I test drove a hybrid in 2007. While a hybrid isn't an all electric car, it's a start.
There was also some sort of pilot program a couple of decades ago with electric cars. I recall hearing a story about them on NPR several years ago. Apparently, you couldn't buy, you could only lease, and after a while the cars were simply taken back, even though the users just loved them.
modrepub
(3,494 posts)Tesla will have a $40k model out soon. Expect Porsche (VW) to do the same. You can buy a bolt for under $40 now. The overall price is going down, to the point where it's getting pretty close to par with a conventional car. Our family's first computer was over $3k, you can get something far more powerful now for under $1k. I see the same trend with Tesla; start expensive, work out the kinks, become more efficient in production and see where it goes. Innovators aren't always successful but I support Tesla's push to get me away from having to stop at a gas station and smile when I'm paying $50+ to fill my tank (when I can probably charge an electric care for under a couple of bucks or for free if I use mass transit).
nolabels
(13,133 posts)Because most of our economy has been politicized and subsidized, making many values very muddy and hard to comprehend. If you had to factor all the effort to obtain oil and other commodities in an unfriendly world because of wealth and mineral extraction the equation might be different. If that were actually done your auto might not be as cheap as you think. You also might want to consider what is going to be left behind after you are gone.
But then again if you are more willing to blame the rest of the world for your woes (rather than accepting the challenge that you are the change and the difference) then you can be that just another in just another majority group
elmac
(4,642 posts)Response to elmac (Reply #22)
singed.dude This message was self-deleted by its author.
still_one
(92,136 posts)maker
singed.dude
(42 posts)Tony Seba predicts autonomous electric cars will be disruptive. Uber and other ride-sharing companies will have driverless vehicles available. People won't need to buy a car, let alone a Tesla, if they can summon an autonomous taxi.
FrodosNewPet
(495 posts)Unless they can avoid getting hammered by the Waymo suit, AND can find a fresh influx of private investment capital soon, their days may be numbered.
[hr]
The Financial Times: Uber is doomed
http://boingboing.net/2017/04/10/costs-are-costs.html
Cory Doctorow / 9:38 am Mon Apr 10, 2017
On FT's Alphaville, Izabella Kaminska takes note of the excellent, deep series on Uber's Ponzi-economics that Hubert Horan published last year on Naked Capitalism and calls out some juicy highlights.
"Costs are costs, even if you're a monopoly" -- so the fact that Uber loses (a lot) of money on every single ride won't magically go away if the company manages to kill its competition by subsidizing riders with its investors' money. Uber will need to find better economics somehow, and right now, that seems to involve two sleazy and improbable tactics:
1. Tricking customers into carpools rather than solo rides, nudging them with dark patterns in Uber's UI that irrevocably commits riders to carpools if they absentmindedly tap the default button, rather than the increasingly obscured solo ride options; carpools make Uber a lot more money, but drivers and riders hate them.
2. Bullying legislatures into killing public transit, so that when Uber kills all the other taxi services and then turns its own service into a carpool-only, riders won't be able to opt out by switching back to riding the bus.
~ snip ~
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)not in actual revenues. So this news is pretty much a story about the unreality of the stock market as a useful reflection of the actual economy.
Kennah
(14,256 posts)Peak Oil will doom the ICE, but I'm not seeing how $100K EVs will be the slayers. Used Nissan Leafs are going for around $8K. If we had $8K to buy a second vehicle, we'd buy a used Leaf. Even the $40K Tesla Model 3 isn't really distinguishing itself as compared to the Chevy Bolt. Time will tell.