Venezuelans again take to streets as death toll jumps to 37
Source: Washington Post
CARACAS, Venezuela — Students battled tear gas-throwing police officers in demonstrations across Venezuela’s capital Thursday as a two-month-old protest movement that shows no signs of letting up claimed more lives.
“We are students, not terrorists!” a mass of students chanted as they marched in Caracas.
Soldiers bathed hundreds of protesters in tear gas at the Central University of Venezuela, with medics in gas masks attending to students with bloodied faces and limbs.
“Do you know how many dead there are?” Rafaela Requesens, a student leader, shouted at a wall of National Guard officers standing shoulder-to-shoulder and stopping protesters from advancing. “They are your victims.”
Read more: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/venezuelans-again-take-to-streets-as-death-toll-jumps-to-37/2017/05/04/19f4df50-312f-11e7-a335-fa0ae1940305_story.html?utm_term=.7b58c613998c
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nyabingi
(1,145 posts)organized mobs who've been inciting violence, destroying property, attacking people, and basically carrying out many illegal acts that if done in the US, would bring a response of tear gas, beatings, jailings, and in the case of 1992 Los Angeles and the aftermath of hurricane Katrina, police mowing citizens down in the streets by the dozens.
These protesting mobs have killed people and Maduro's government should not hold back in stopping their rampaging. If you lose at the ballot box, change the minds of your political opponents through debate, not by trying to attack and overthrow the government.
If these right-wing mobs don't like their Venezuelan government, I'm sure Trump's Republican colleagues will gladly offer them safe passage to Miami so that they can vote Republican for the next several decades. It's worked out just dandy for the right-wing, racist Cubans infesting Miami.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)...the violent actions they're engaged in is what matters.
Building barricades, throwing Molotov cocktails and vandalizing property is not indicative of "peaceful" protesting.
The Western media is presenting a very biased picture and account of what's happening in Venezuela right now.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Unless you are saying the photo and/or caption is fake?
Here's the AFP article with that photo:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/more-protests-planned-venezuela-death-toll-reaches-32-064617164.html
What media source do you think gives a fairer picture of what's happening in Venezuela right now?
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)are only presenting the narrative from the side of the right-wing opposition, whether it's the NYT, WaPo, Reuters, BBC, CNN, MSNBC, Fox, Yahoo, or any of the others. They only show pictures of those in opposition to Maduro's government, they only talk to and interview Venezuelans sympathetic to the protesters, and treat opposition figures like Capriles with a sympathetic light. You can't deny that this is the case. The United States is not an objective observer watching from across the Gulf.
What's missing is any honest coverage of the government's perspective - there are two sides to every story and too many people are comfortable in the knowledge that they are only receiving half a story. One of the only news outlets representing the views of the pro-government Venezuelans is TeleSur. TeleSur has an obvious pro-Maduro bias, but I think that is definitely needed to balance the consistently negative coverage given to any left-leaning government in Latin America.
Unless you read and understand both sides to an argument, then you are only being indoctrinated and propagandized.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)What criticisms do you have for Maduro in terms of (a) economic policy and (b) his approach to political dissent in Venezuela?
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)handling of the economic crisis, but this alone isn't the reason there is turmoil in that country.
The steep drop in oil prices hurt the economies of all the big petro-economies and it definitely hurt Venezuela. The Maduro government should have been taking steps much earlier to diversify the country's economic base so that it would have been better able to withstand a drop in oil prices.
There is criticism of Maduro to go around, but I can't understand the absolute reluctance of Americans (and of Democrats in particular) to completely ignore the US role in what is going on in Venezuela. Democrats have found their biggest anti-Venezuela crusader in Marco Rubio, who is pushing for $20 million more tax dollars to be spent in Venezuela to further our attempts to destroy the country.
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/americas/venezuela/article148459864.html
Maybe Democrats should start questioning their beliefs when they find themselves on the same side as Marco Rubio.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Unsupported claims of US interference and $5 gets you a small coffee at Starbucks.
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)with a couple pictures of the "peaceful protesters". These are the ones Western-based media omit altogether because their narrative is that the Venezuelan is savagely attacking students walking together with their arms locked.
http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Police-Officer-Dies-After-Being-Shot-in-Venezuelan-Protests--20170504-0015.html
Again, unless you are looking at as many angles and perspectives available to form your opinions, you are only being indoctrinated and having your thoughts manipulated.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)an objective look at the crisis.
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)any American media.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)snooper2
(30,151 posts)Be stupid to allow Russian trolls to comment all over the place and try to sway the narrative 
Marengo
(3,477 posts) nyabingi
(1,145 posts)"unbiased" coverage? Please tell me so I can join you in rolling on the floor laughing.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)demonstrations work in Latin America. The activities you cite: "building barricades, throwing Molotov cocktails and 'vandalizing' property" are all time-honored tactics students from Argentina to Mexico have used and still use to protest. There is nothing remarkable about these tactics except in the mind of a person who knows nothing about Latin America.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Or, if you're a dumb thug dictator like Little Nicky Maduro, you just have your cronies at the Supreme Court nullify the legislative elections after your party loses them.
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)who has lost elections since 1992, rely on corporate sabotage and the work of US-based NGO's to help you violently overthrow the elected government.
Many of these people whom you are loving so much attempted a coup in 2002, briefly took over and were immediately recognized as the legitimate leaders by the scum Bush regime, and too many Democrats were cheering it on in solidarity with Bush.
Let me ask you a question. Do you think the coups the CIA pulled off in places like Argentina (installing Pinochet), Iran (installing the Shah), Zaire (installing Mobutu), etc. were GOOD things? Are you really in support of this type of intervention?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)It's not just rich people opposing the failed Maduro regime, it's vast swaths of the country that recognize the profound failures of this dumber, more thuggish Castro wannabe.
Maduro has failed, and is unwilling to give the people of Venezuela the opportunity to replace him and his group of thuggish, comically corrupt cronies.
Maduro is a gift to the rightwingers across the globe who want to discredit socialism. He's the leftwing Latino Trump.
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)because you support obvious efforts by the US to destroy it in Venezuela.
I'm of the opinion that in the face of a very aggressive regime change operation directed from Washington, "democracy" as has been practiced in Venezuela must be suspended until the violence being perpetrated by paid right-wingers is brought to an end.
The right-wing won the National Assembly vote and Maduro respected the democratic wishes of the voters. This National Assembly, however, is hell-bent on a coup to remove Maduro, the democratically-elected president and this is pretty much a civil war being declared by the opposition.
Elections are next year, and if the people of Venezuela want to VOTE Maduro out of office, they'll have the chance to do so. The Venezuelan government should not succumb to the pressures of violence and street thuggery - he should, like the US would, treat these provocateurs as enemy combatants and start locking them up or shooting if that doesn't work.
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)The venezuelan high court simply declared the parliament dissolved and declared themselves the new parliament. That is not democracy. That is called a putsch. A putsch perpetrated by Maduro's handpicked lackeys.
Then the people protested and the court backed down.
Where is your outrage about Maduro's attempt to overthrow venezuelan democracy???
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)a very hostile government (the US) that has supported armed coups in the recent past, this move should be properly seen as the Venezuelan government taking steps to protect itself from another regime change effort.
The US is already planning on sending $20 million more dollars to help right-wing, racist Venezuelans (the same ones who called Chavez a "monkey", an "ape", and derided his African and indigenous ancestry) and corporatists in their efforts to violently overthrow their government.
If I were Maduro I would declare a state of emergency and start locking up anyone who has had dealings with US officials. We have been waging war against Venezuela and Maduro's government needs to start acting as if it is at war.
I'm having major problems understanding Democrats affection for regime change and subversion of democracy abroad - it doesn't really square with the ideals and beliefs Democrats profess at home. The Democratic Party is in league with Marco Rubio right now and no one seems to think it's a problem.
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/americas/venezuela/article148459864.html
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)So it's okay to get rid of democracy if it gets in the way of the government?
Let me tell you an anecdote:
In communist Eastern Germany, in the early years when protests didn't yet result in disappearances, the people once held a huge protest against their regime. The regime issued a press-release that basically chastised the people for being ingrateful. An east-german poet then released a satirical column that called on the people to treat their government better: For if they would not, they would risk that their government might abandon them and seek out other people to rule.
And for your proposal that you would simply declare yourself dictator and start jailing anybody who threatens your rule... If you are actively trying to toss your country into a brutal civil-war, a civil-war that will end with YOU suffering a horrible and brutal death by lynching or execution-squad, then I will not get in your way. You, defender of democracy, have obviously figured this out.
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)by fighting in the streets have obviously abandoned democracy.
These people have not been able to win the presidency through the ballot box so they've decided to start a civil war, plain and simple. I think everyone can see this is the case. The people of Venezuela had better get ready to fight for their freedom, against their own right-wing and against the US, who is determined to overthrow Venezuela's government.
"Democracy" is not throwing firebombs, destroying property, killing pro-government supporters, etc.
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)They have decided to start a civil war? Let's see:
* all privately owned arms were confiscated
* the only private citizens who are allowed to own arms are the paramilitaries loyal to Maduro
* plus Maduro has the military on his side
Under these circumstances, rioting is in no way comparable to civil war.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)is required to credit
EX500rider
(10,829 posts)Like?
And the US giving out aid and grants to shore up democracy in Venezuela is not a sign of that.
And how is Venezuela's biggest trading partner for exports AND imports a sign of "trying to destroy Venezuela"?
EX500rider
(10,829 posts)lol, good one, Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan were victims of that.
Venezuela is a victim of their own inept handling of the economy and nothing more.
The US is their biggest trading partner but is also trying to destroy them? good one...
EX500rider
(10,829 posts)....the people of Venezuela are rightfully pissed off about the highest inflation in the world, the lack of food and medicine (all caused by the inept kleptocracy they have for a government), and Caracus being the murder capital of the world, the political repression where every leader who might get elected is thrown in jail, the lack of a free press, etc.
Why wouldn't they be protesting?
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)like the National Endowment for Democracies handle regime changing now - they've taken over the role once occupied by the CIA and the CIA is handling more of the military functions (drones and arming jihadists for proxy wars).
The people who've benefited from Chavez's socialist reforms aren't looking to overthrow their government, but to make it work in the face of a concerted effort by Venezuelan corporations and right-wing elite to destroy the gains they have made.
There have also been massive pro-government marches in Venezuela but these aren't covered at all by the corporate media.
EX500rider
(10,829 posts)Poverty is on the rise, food & medicine scarce, and Caracas is the murder capital of the world with the worst monetary inflation in the world.
The "effort to destroy Venezuela" is lead by the government with their inept handling of the economy.
Their currency laws keep companies from getting the dollars they need to import products. That's the reason there is no toilet paper etc, not some imaginary corporate warfare on themselves.
Zorro
(15,730 posts)Tell us more.
EX500rider
(10,829 posts)DetlefK
(16,423 posts)nyabingi
(1,145 posts)snooper2
(30,151 posts)You know the CIA recruits members as young as 14 right? That is that part of that picture you're looking at above!
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)I don't know whether you believe what you are writing or not, but for anyone who hasn't been following along, this Wikipedia article gives the basics:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Venezuelan_constitutional_crisis
The Venezuelan government actions have been the target of strong criticisms for over a year now, because it is clear that the country is functioning outside of its Constitution. OAS & the UN, for example. Human Rights Watch.
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)the early 1990's and it was recognized as such by Maduro's government. No constitutional crisis here.
The problem is that this very aggressive National Assembly is seeking to overthrow the president. The NA has the direct backing of a hostile foreign government (http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/americas/venezuela/article148459864.html) and the Maduro government is more than justified in treating them as a hostile entity.
The OAS is a puppet organization that follows the orders the US gives them. They have no legitimacy.
EX500rider
(10,829 posts)lol, good one, the OAS is a continental organization founded in 1948, for the purposes of regional solidarity and cooperation among its member states, the OAS's members are the 35 independent states of the Americas.
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)1. They control parliament. Maduro controls Presidency and the venezuelan Supreme Court. The opposition is actually demanding new elections but Maduro is preventing that with procedural roadblocks.
2. Maduro is using paramilitary gangs, the "colectivos". He's the one with mobs.
Then why was Citgo, owned by the Venezuelan Government the largest contributor to tRump's inauguration. That $500k donation was quite generous given that the average Venezuelan has lost almost 20 pounds in the last few years. And those videos on utube showing Venezuelan soldiers eating out of garbage cans.
brooklynite
(94,452 posts)nyabingi
(1,145 posts)I see thugs with helmets engaging in violence.
Is the Venezuelan government supposed to stand around and let these people riot and destroy everything?
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)He asked the police to stop their violence and for that he got scattershot in his backside.
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)The Daily Beast is a hardcore regime change-supporting rag so I'm not surprised they have the "Maduro is Hitler!" perspective.
That said, you can find outrages coming from both sides. I can find you stories of right-wing corporate leaders openly encouraging violence and confrontation and right-wing mobs torching police cars and throwing Molotovs at police. Again, there are two sides to every story and two perspectives.
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)Here are my conditions:
1. The media-outlet/journalist must not be associated with any government.
2. The media-outlet must not have a self-stated mission to further a specific political cause.
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)The only places you can find anything covering the Venezuelan government's perspective are the websites that fall under the silly conditions you want to impose here.
Don't expect me to assume that just because information is coming from a government that it's any less reliable than information coming from a privately-owned entity. Both can have points of view and push this just as aggressively as the other.
You rely on sources like The Daily Beast but assume they have "self-stated mission to further a political cause", but you can't be that naive can you? I mean really. The Daily Beast has just as much a perspective and bias as any government-operated media, but Americans assume their media is objective just because...well, because that's just the belief I guess.
If I set those same conditions for you, there would literally be nothing you could link to me either, but it doesn't make what I read any less true.
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)You claim that such stories exist. I'm asking that you provide an example that does not come from a politicized and partisan source.
YOU claimed that all these outlets are not trustworthy. Well, which outlets do you consider trustworthy? Politicized and partisan ones that happen to be on the other side?
Marengo
(3,477 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)I do not understand supposed leftists who support this thug and his bald-faced grab for dictatorial power. It's like sprinkling some socialist decorations on it somehow covers the stink of authoritarianism.
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)Up until now, Maduro and his supporters have respected the results of the election, but they have finally seen that the opposition is being by the US to create chaos and suffering among the people. The opposition does not want to wait until it is time for presidential elections, but are trying to violently overthrow Maduro's government. I don't understand supposed liberals and their adoration for right-wing violence and US-directed programs to topple Latin American democracies.
Haven't we seen this game being played long enough to finally say "enough is enough"?
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH! A petition! That's so radical!!!
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)and start erecting barricades, attacking police, throwing firebombs, murdering pro-Trump supporters, destroying property, start accepting millions of dollars from Russia and China to carry out these acts, and then demand a petition and early elections to get Trump out of office early?
Sounds like a great idea to you in Venezuela, so do you think the Democrats can pull this off in the US?
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)then violence would certainly be an option.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)But I don't see how anyone can support this incompetent dictator wannabe.
His team loses big in the elections. What does he do? He tries to strip them of their power.
He avoids standing for election himself.
It's crap like support for this guy and people like him that undermines support for socialism in THIS country.
Fuck Maduro. Anyone who supports him is no friend of the people IMO.
How fucked up does that country have to get before the left in THIS country says, "yeah, ya know, that's not working." It reminds me of the supply-side fanatic here... no amount of evidence seems to sway their opinions, but they have already decided what the right answer is.
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)but I DO support the changes he and Chavez brought to the country - when the majority of the people can benefit from the wealth of the country, I think that's a good thing.
Why in the world should Maduro subject himself to early elections? If I'm correct, Venezuela doesn't have presidential elections until 2018. Should we expect Donald Trump to offer himself up for early elections in 2018 just because he lost the popular vote?
You can be against socialism as fervently as you want, but please don't pretend as if the US government has not been trying everything short of outright invasion to destroy socialism in Venezuela. The only socialist societies that have been able to be socialist societies without being under attack by the US are the Scandinavian/European countries.
NobodyHere
(2,810 posts)nyabingi
(1,145 posts)A very small percentage of the population with everything and enjoying all of the wealth while the overwhelming majority of the country is dirt-poor, no healthcare, no education, and suffering.
Apparently this is "better" to Americans.
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)Hospitals having medical supplies, no rampages, no riots, no protests, no deaths, no paramilitaries...
Speaking of which: Caracas has one of the highest crime-rates on the planet. PLANET. Maybe doing something about that would also make it "better".
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)they've imposed on Venezuela which restricts the importation of medical supplies, how about the right-wing corporations stop hoarding their goods to create artificial shortages (they've been busted doing this), how about the right-wing media elites in Venezuela stop inciting violence?
As long as the people of Venezuela reject the anti-democratic regime change plans of the elites, there will not be a return to the bad old days of oligarch rule. Brazil is about to start coming apart at the seams right now because the people there reject the coup-imposed leadership of Michel Temer, the US-backed neoliberalist who wasn't elected and who's trying to radically alter the government in favor of the elite few.
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)How come nobody in Venezuela can afford to buy anything abroad? Could it possibly be because the venezuelan Bolivar is worth shit and nobody wants to be paid in Bolivars?
How come no mom&pop-store has food or toilet-paper or any other supplies? Are they holding back as well?
Could it possibly be that stores refuse to sell stuff because the Maduro-government has set fixed prices that would drive the store into bankruptcy?
And please don't tell me you believe that bullshit about the media inciting violence.
When Caracas is one of the most dangerous cities on the planet...
When your hard-earned wage is worth jack shit because the inflation is out of control...
When you wake up hungry and go to bed hungry... FOR FUCKING MONTHS
When your President's approach to solving all these problems is to not make any economic changes because that would violate the political dogma that the country is perfect as it is...
Then nobody needs to be INCITED into violence.
And you are wrong in one critical aspect: The opposition has won the most recent elections. The people who want Maduro gone are "THE PEOPLE".
christx30
(6,241 posts)and stop stealing anything companies bring into the country.
If I have a $200 TV that I want to sell, Maduro might make me sell it for $10, or steal it out right. So I'm not going to bring the TV into the country at all. I'll sell it in a friendlier nation. Meanwhile the guy in Caracas that wants a TV won't be able to get one. Not that he'll have the American dollars to buy one. Maduro restricts the cash that people can get. And most people outside Venezuela won't accept bolivars. They are nearly worthless.
So people can't get the products they need. Companies that work in Venezuela can't get the parts they need to do their jobs. No one is willing to ship toilet paper, diapers, cooking oil, food to anyone not able or willing to pay them.
EX500rider
(10,829 posts)Jeez. do you know anything right about Venezuela?
Here's the State Dept's list of sanctions....feel free to point out the sanction against medical supplies...
https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Programs/pages/venezuela.aspx
if fact you'll notice they are just sanctions against individuals in Venezuela who have been guilty of human rights abuse and the Arms Export Control Act, which has prohibited the sale of defense articles and services to Venezuela because of lack of cooperation on anti-terrorism efforts.
hack89
(39,171 posts)try again.
EX500rider
(10,829 posts)When the govt sets artificial price controls in a country with 700% inflation this happens. no one can stay in business and sell under cost.
Plus most their "hoarding" stories were BS any way, yes they filmed a wharehouse full of some goods, duh, in a country of 31 million you HAVE to have wharehouse full of stuff in the pipeline.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)It doesn't have to be a choice between a shit sandwich and a shit salad.
Maduro is NOT a man of and for the people. It is an incompetent authoritarian. He's replaced the capitalist state apparatus with his fucked up version of the proletariat state apparatus.
NobodyHere
(2,810 posts)"...a very small percentage of the population with everything and enjoying all of the wealth while the overwhelming majority of the country is dirt-poor, no healthcare, no education, and suffering."
Wolf Frankula
(3,600 posts)I ask because of what a Venezuelan student said to me years ago. It was at my college and the subject of Kent State came up. He was asked "Could that have happened in Venezuela?" He said, "Yes, the police or army would have fired at the students. And then the students would have shot back."
Wolf
oneshooter
(8,614 posts)This was possible because the firearms were registered by law and the lists were used by the military to confiscate all civilian owned arms. The only civilians with arms are the Maduro backed militia members dressed in beige uniforms
