London Bridge attack: police make 12 arrests in Barking as death toll rises to seven - live updates
Source: The Guardian
Barking residents report arrest at raided flat
Barking residents have been speaking to my colleagues, Robert Booth and Matthew Taylor, about a raid on a property believed to be linked to one of the London attackers and where as many as five arrests are thought to have been made.
A neighbour, who asked not to be named, described the man who lived in a flat at the centre of the raid as a slim, bearded man in his mid-20s, married with a young child, no older than two. He is believed to be of Pakistani origin.
She told the Guardian she had recognised her neighbour as the man from a picture that circulated last night of one of the attackers lying on the ground in Borough Market after he had been shot by armed police.
Her suspicion appeared to be confirmed when she woke on Sunday morning to see police officers photographing his red Peugeot car.
Read more: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2017/jun/03/london-bridge-closed-after-serious-police-incident-live
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)answers from the UK's imperialist past are not pretty.
brooklynite
(94,366 posts)KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)occupation of Iraq, whence comes ISIS. Does anyone here have a memory longer than that of a fruit fly?
FWIW, a Manchester Massacre happens in Iraq on a weekly, if not daily, basis.
brooklynite
(94,366 posts)KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)Coventina
(27,064 posts)Got it!!
Igel
(35,282 posts)There aren't a lot of secularly-based anti-imperialist attacks by Pakistanis or Libyans in Iraq. Those that do happen are connected with an openly Salafist-Islam-supremacist organization. It also pays to remember that al-Zarqawi, the core of AQ in Iraq, was from Jordan and operated in Saddam's Iraq, and that when bin Ladin got mixed up with Zarqawi's group their narrative said less about the US and more about the Shi'ites. Again, religion + politics, imperialism on the back burner. Moving on ...
The IRA was a religious-political struggle. Yet we didn't hear of attacks by Brazilians against the British Embassy, nor were there Italian or Croatian cells active in Belfast. (Yet in the Balkans, there were Arab cells fighting with the Bosnians.)
The US attacked Panama. But Latinos in the US didn't start killing random non-Latinos. Heck, even Panamanians didn't. And there was a long history of US imperialism in, oh, Panama and the rest of Central America. (Yet in Nigeria, there's this odd business with polio--outbreaks in Taliban territory are followed soon thereafter by outbreaks in Boko Haram territory.)
Even more telling, in neither case was there an upswelling of Catholic violence against the US. Bombs didn't go off in front of the US embassy in Austria, nor were US tourists in Rome gunned or run down. There were protests, but the protests focused on political identity--those sharply left of center focused on being anti-US because the US was opposed to a lot of revolutionary movements around the world and had been imperialist (again, in opposing a lot of revolutionary movements around the world). Even when there's a Tunisian attack in France, the attackers' notes point to ISIS, to AQ in various forms, and not to the history of French imperialism in Tunisia or Algeria--if you read left, center, and right, you find that discussion mostly quite left of center, whether in the US or France. When you do find imperialism in the attackers' notes, it's not short-term stuff like the Picot-Sykes agreement, but 19th century imperialism writ large or even the loss of the Balkans and Spain. Then it's no longer "ethnic" in the sense WEIRDs think of it, but ethnic in the sense of religious-political identity. (WEIRD is white, educated, industrialized, rich, democratic).
Arguments based entirely on historical imperialism fail. They'd predict that Asians, being Asians with the same history, should engage in similar sorts and degrees of violence against their former colonial oppressors. But Hindu Asians are different from Muslim Asians. ("Asian" in Britain is primarily "S. Asian".) Same cause, different effects ... cause and effect aren't established. If you see a picture of the guy who ran down the London Bridge folk and he had dark skin, you'd probably not first think, "Ah, he's a member of the BJP." And there's not a lot of Indian Muslims attacking in Britain; they have their own struggle.
I guess if you wanted to you could go back a layer or two to when the British overthrew Muslim apartheid in S. Asia. Most of the territory had Muslim rulers, merchants, schools, but a small minority population; the Hindu population, a large majority, were second-class citizens. That's led to all kinds of problems now. But it also led to Pakistan's establishment, since the former oppressed didn't want the former oppressors around, and the former oppressors resented having been stripped of their due and wanted to be with others like themselves. We hear about the persecution as Muslims fled; the large-ish Hindu minority in what's now Pakistan suffered the same. That might account for the Hindu/Muslim Asian split in terms of (low-incident) behavior.
There's too much more to write. But you've mixed all kinds of things into a pot, a veritable mulligatawny. It obfuscates instead of illuminating. The views of the attackers don't need to make immediate sense to you or me and there's this haste to immediately deny anything they say that we don't think fits our views on the matter. But the goal is to figure out that their views are, and that's necessarily a posteriori. We can use their own narratives and give them the dignity to be able to say what they think, even if we find it unpleasant. The way Chomsky relied on paradigms and contrasts to get at underlying structure is also reasonable, I think. Critical thinking--first trying to find evidence to demolish one's own hypothesis instead of doing the humanities thing and looking primarily for evidence in support--helps. Whatever the answer, it's likely to be complicated. And it's also likely to be situated deeply in the attackers' culture and psychology and sociology, not in WEIRD reductions of those things.
LeftInTX
(25,146 posts)KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)in this situation. To wit, without the Brits mucking about in regions of the world where they had no legitimate business (most recently Afghanistan and Iraq), there would be a far lower probability of these types of incidents. The British mucked around in much of the world until imperial over-extension and decline compelled their retreat. But, as the Falklands and Iraq demonstrate, old impulses die hard. The Brits having ended their mucking about, thought they could wash their hands and walk away with clean hands, making little or no reparations for the toxic waste dumps their imperialism left behind. Unfortunately, the world doesn't necessarily operate according to Gandhian principles, as the Brits are now learning to their rue.
Still, your analysis is quite prescient and probably merits its own OP, to which I would feel honored to contribute!
Rustyeye77
(2,736 posts)so this is from the UKs treatment of Pakistan ?
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)happens in Iraq on a weekly, if not daily, basis (since 2003), which bears the UK's bloody fingerprints right alongside Bush's. There's little or no hand-wringing here over Manchester-on-the-Euphrates.
Rustyeye77
(2,736 posts)more than me.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)or externally displaced, i.e., rendered homeless.
Extrapolate those percentages to the U.S. and we'd be talking some 75 million Americans killed, wounded or displaced. How would that make you feel?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)It doesn't give any justification for any attacks but it is not an untrue statement.
However in this case it is likely Islamic terrorsim inspired by ISIS that is the cause.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)ISIS (whose leadership is largely composed from cashiered members of Saddam's former officer corps). Without American imperialism, it is highly likely there would have been no 9-11. (The suicide squads of AQ irregulars did, after all, have a motive to their malignity and it was NOT that they "hated our freedoms."
All Marxists must condemn attacks on workers, whenever and whereever those attacks occur. But one can condemn and still simultaneously seek an explanation that subverts imperialism.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)Skittles
(153,114 posts)Last edited Sun Jun 4, 2017, 03:22 PM - Edit history (1)