Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Judi Lynn

(160,452 posts)
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 07:29 PM Jul 2017

The Latest: Teens may face charge after watching man drown

Source: Associated Press


Updated 4:01 pm, Friday, July 21, 2017

COCOA, Fla. (AP) — The Latest on Drowning Man-Teens (all times local):

4:55 p.m.

Authorities in Florida say a group of teens who watched, laughed and made a video as a man drowned in a retention pond can be charged with failure to report a death.

Cocoa Mayor Henry Parrish III says the misdemeanor charge is at least a start in the July 9 drowning death of 31-year-old Jamel Dunn. It's generally not a crime to fail to come to someone's rescue in Florida or elsewhere in the U.S.

Cocoa police say after the drowning they discovered a group of teens recorded Dunn's drowning on video. The video was released by the state attorney's office Thursday and audio was published by Florida Today. The teens can be heard laughing at Dunn, telling him he's going die and they weren't going to help him.

 
Police identified and interviewed the five teens involved. Cocoa Police Chief Mike Cataloupe called their actions "utterly inhumane and cruel," but initially said criminal charges could not be filed because state law doesn't require people give or call for help when someone's in distress.

Read more: http://www.chron.com/news/crime/article/The-Latest-Teens-may-face-charge-after-watching-11306105.php

41 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
The Latest: Teens may face charge after watching man drown (Original Post) Judi Lynn Jul 2017 OP
What kind of vile people were these??? dhol82 Jul 2017 #1
Society must insist on this; elleng Jul 2017 #2
This is how bad laws are made. EL34x4 Jul 2017 #4
I agree with you. bitterross Jul 2017 #7
I have no problem with radical noodle Jul 2017 #9
Laws are rarely made 'in the heat of the moment,' elleng Jul 2017 #12
Not knee-jerk laws; that is NOT the way good laws are made, but elleng Jul 2017 #10
spot on Lazy Daisy Jul 2017 #14
I don't know enough about the laws in Florida TDale313 Jul 2017 #3
Hope so. Can their parents be charged? (nt) question everything Jul 2017 #5
so they declined to help and didn't even CALL for help? Skittles Jul 2017 #6
I sadly watched the video RhodeIslandOne Jul 2017 #13
Here are the quotes. sheshe2 Jul 2017 #17
Although there is a law that people have to report a death......... Old Vet Jul 2017 #8
Good, get them some how (I don't know if their parents would do anything). BigmanPigman Jul 2017 #11
I can understand that people can't be forced to provide aid. forgotmylogin Jul 2017 #15
As Well They Should Doug the Dem Jul 2017 #16
You already know how I feel about this. sheshe2 Jul 2017 #18
Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2017 #35
I don't know if this qualifies for a depraved indifference law, but it sure sounds like depraved NBachers Jul 2017 #19
"Depraved indifference" is not a crime. It's an adjective. X_Digger Jul 2017 #30
"The police are under no obligation to help or save anyone" HockeyMom Jul 2017 #20
Whoever posted that quote was correct. LisaL Jul 2017 #21
Water is an inaminate object HockeyMom Jul 2017 #22
It doesn't matter if protection is from a person or an object. LisaL Jul 2017 #23
So it is Pointless to call 911 then HockeyMom Jul 2017 #38
If you are going swimming without a lifeguard, you are going at your own risk. LisaL Jul 2017 #41
No, fire fighters are not legally obliged to carry anyone out of a building. X_Digger Jul 2017 #29
Courts have repeatedly found that the police have no legal obligation to protect (generally) X_Digger Jul 2017 #28
I certainly hope they will be charged. Seems that under Florida law, and the law in every state, Nitram Jul 2017 #24
Ummmm, pushing someone into the water to make them drown is a crime NobodyHere Jul 2017 #25
Well, of course that would be a crime. LisaL Jul 2017 #31
Read the post I responded too NobodyHere Jul 2017 #32
Um, they wouldn't videotape that part... Nitram Jul 2017 #37
There is a surveillance video of the man voluntarily entering the pond. LisaL Jul 2017 #40
If they do get charged the media should be there blueinredohio Jul 2017 #26
When I hear about bizarre behavior like this, I wonder if the criminals TheDebbieDee Jul 2017 #27
I want this story to just go away. flibbitygiblets Jul 2017 #33
Blame Hollywood, seriously. ucrdem Jul 2017 #34
I hope they can be charged with something burrowowl Jul 2017 #36
This is getting to be a circular agrument HockeyMom Jul 2017 #39

dhol82

(9,352 posts)
1. What kind of vile people were these???
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 07:39 PM
Jul 2017

This is just mind bending. Watching someone drowning and not trying to help?

Hope they get blowback.

 

EL34x4

(2,003 posts)
4. This is how bad laws are made.
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 07:51 PM
Jul 2017

Quick, knee-jerk responses to address public outrage tend to result in laws that aren't thought through very well with unintended consequences that surface later down the road.

Do we really need laws to compel us to help someone who's drowning?

I'm guessing the boys who watched that man drown wouldn't have done anything different had their been a law on the books.

 

bitterross

(4,066 posts)
7. I agree with you.
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 08:01 PM
Jul 2017

In the heat of the moment is not a good way to make public policy and law. It creates really bad laws like the three-strikes laws and the minimum mandatory sentencing laws.

This isn't a wide-spread problem that calls for immediate response.

radical noodle

(7,997 posts)
9. I have no problem with
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 08:11 PM
Jul 2017

making a law that says you must report to police if you see a person die. His family didn't know where he was, as I understand the story, while all the time these kids knew exactly where he was.

elleng

(130,767 posts)
12. Laws are rarely made 'in the heat of the moment,'
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 08:17 PM
Jul 2017

it takes time, and I certainly was not suggesting such, but rather that laws are derived from a consensus among many members of society, and that something similar should arise from this anti-social incident.

elleng

(130,767 posts)
10. Not knee-jerk laws; that is NOT the way good laws are made, but
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 08:14 PM
Jul 2017

thoughtful laws that arise from thoughtful discussion among members of society.

TDale313

(7,820 posts)
3. I don't know enough about the laws in Florida
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 07:49 PM
Jul 2017

To know whether charges should be brought. But I am sickened every day at the loss of humanity and empathy we seem to be seeing in our society. Maybe it just gets more publicized, and this isn't new. But it feels more prevalent at all levels in our society.

 

RhodeIslandOne

(5,042 posts)
13. I sadly watched the video
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 08:53 PM
Jul 2017

They yelled at him to get out of the water in a "Dude you an idiot" kind of way and then he started yelling for help and they started laughing like "no shit you moron". Its clear they weren't taking it seriously and next thing you know the guy doesn't come up and they start debating whether to call the police.

They sounded pretty stupid. Like fucking dumb stoned kids.

sheshe2

(83,661 posts)
17. Here are the quotes.
Sat Jul 22, 2017, 04:04 AM
Jul 2017

“You gonna die,” one of the teenagers said in a video posted to social media.

“Ain’t nobody fixing to help you, you dumb ass,” another teen shouted as Dunn called for help.

Not one of the teenagers attempted to assist Dunn or called or help. Instead, they laughed and filmed his final moments, police said.

“They just laughed the whole time,” Cocoa Police Department spokeswoman Yvonne Martinez told Florida Today. “He was just screaming ... for someone to help him.” 

When Dunn finally disappeared under water, one of the teens said flatly, “Oh, he just died.” The remark sparked laughter in the group.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/florida-teens-mock-film-man-drowning-disability_us_597229f3e4b00e4363df267c?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009

Old Vet

(2,001 posts)
8. Although there is a law that people have to report a death.........
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 08:08 PM
Jul 2017

That's where they will get these kids at a minimum.

BigmanPigman

(51,569 posts)
11. Good, get them some how (I don't know if their parents would do anything).
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 08:16 PM
Jul 2017

I didn't watch the video bit hearing about it didn't surprise me. It did remind me of the last Seinfeld episode when they got jailed for not helping an overweight man who was getting car jacked and video taped it while making jokes instead. The "Good Samaritan" law they quoted in the show was to protect people who DO attempt to help someone and accidentally some harm is caused in some way (like while trying to save a person falling from a high place then a person gets a broken toe in the fall).

forgotmylogin

(7,521 posts)
15. I can understand that people can't be forced to provide aid.
Fri Jul 21, 2017, 11:22 PM
Jul 2017

There are cases where attempting to help could worsen the problem, or put the rescuer in danger. If you don't feel confident you can pull someone safely from a burning car, you should not be required to attempt to do so.

However, recording someone on a camera phone in an accident without having also attempted to call for rescue or 911 could be interpreted as wanting to profit off of someone's misfortune, for clicks, views, or to sell the footage to a news organization.

This would apply in situations like the paparazzi who scrambled to take pictures of Diana right after the car crash instead of calling for help.

 

Doug the Dem

(1,297 posts)
16. As Well They Should
Sat Jul 22, 2017, 12:34 AM
Jul 2017

Even though the penalty for not reporting a death is probably minor, something has to be done to say loud and clear, "This is NOT okay!"

sheshe2

(83,661 posts)
18. You already know how I feel about this.
Sat Jul 22, 2017, 04:11 AM
Jul 2017

I am heartbroken at the utter disrespect for another persons life.

I can't imagine anyone standing by and just laughing as another human being struggles to live and then jeer at them and laugh as they filmed his death while ignoring his cries for help.

Response to sheshe2 (Reply #18)

NBachers

(17,083 posts)
19. I don't know if this qualifies for a depraved indifference law, but it sure sounds like depraved
Sat Jul 22, 2017, 09:35 AM
Jul 2017

indifference to me.

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
30. "Depraved indifference" is not a crime. It's an adjective.
Sun Jul 23, 2017, 10:23 PM
Jul 2017

Like "Aggravated", "Unintentional", "Felony", or "Grand".

It's an enhancement of an existing crime. Nobody has quite yet explained what the existing crime is.

 

HockeyMom

(14,337 posts)
20. "The police are under no obligation to help or save anyone"
Sat Jul 22, 2017, 10:36 AM
Jul 2017

That quote was posted on another site. While I have heard this argument from people concerning being armed, that won't help anyone who is drowning. So a person who is drowning is out of luck unless there is a civilian around willing to risk their own life because police won't help or save you?

Added danger to that risk is the fact that in Florida it is fairly common to find GATORS in it's lakes and ponds. Drown along with the other person, or possibly be eaten? Personally, I think it is better to call for help from people who know what they are doing.

So what is the point at all of calling 911 then? For the police to come after the person has drowned to just "investigate" after a death? Save a whole lot of money by eliminating 911? You are on your own?

When you have adults who think like this, are you surprised at teens like these?

 

HockeyMom

(14,337 posts)
22. Water is an inaminate object
Sat Jul 22, 2017, 11:22 AM
Jul 2017

and stationary. Not protection from another person. So on 9/11 the Police could have just sat around doing nothing too and watched people die? Buildings are inaminate objects also. How about Firefighters? Is their legal obligation only to put out the fire? I guess they aren't legally required to carrying people out of burning buildings?

LisaL

(44,972 posts)
23. It doesn't matter if protection is from a person or an object.
Sat Jul 22, 2017, 11:26 AM
Jul 2017

And if you object to the supreme court ruling, I am not the one who came up with it.

 

HockeyMom

(14,337 posts)
38. So it is Pointless to call 911 then
Mon Jul 24, 2017, 06:21 PM
Jul 2017

Those teenagers were in the right to not call 911? Moral is to not going swimming anywhere where there is no lifeguard? They are the only people who have the legal obligation to save a drowning person?

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
29. No, fire fighters are not legally obliged to carry anyone out of a building.
Sun Jul 23, 2017, 10:21 PM
Jul 2017

They do so because they choose to, not because they're legally obliged to.

Legally, a cop could step over a criminal stabbing you to death in order to cross the street to get to a donut shop, and there's not a damned thing you (or likely your heirs) could do about it.

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
28. Courts have repeatedly found that the police have no legal obligation to protect (generally)
Sun Jul 23, 2017, 10:17 PM
Jul 2017

Even in blue states like California and New York, lest you think it some backwards republican thing.

Riss v. City of New York - 1967

http://lawschool.courtroomview.com/acf_cases/10107-riss-v-new-york

Brief Fact Summary

Plaintiff was harassed by a rejected suitor, who claimed he would kill or seriously injure her if she dated someone else. Plaintiff repeatedly asked for police protection and was ignored. After the news of her engagement, the plaintiff was again threatened and called the police to no avail. The next day, a thug, sent by the rejected suitor, partially blinded the plaintiff and disfigured her face.

Rule of Law and Holding

The municipality does not have a duty to provide police protection to an individual. It has a duty to the public as a whole, but no one in particular.


Hartzler v. City of San Jose, 46 Cal. App.3d 6 (1st Dist. 1975)

The first amended complaint alleged in substance: On September 4, 1972, plaintiff's decedent, Ruth Bunnell, telephoned the main office of the San Jose Police Department and reported that her estranged husband, Mack Bunnell, had called her, saying that he was coming to her residence to kill her. She requested immediate police aid; the department refused to come to her aid at that time, and asked that she call the department again when Mack Bunnell had arrived.

Approximately 45 minutes later, Mack Bunnell arrived at her home and stabbed her to death. The police did not arrive until 3 a.m., in response to a call of a neighbor. By this time Mrs. Bunnell was dead.
...
(1) Appellant contends that his complaint stated a cause of action for wrongful death under Code of Civil Procedure section 377, and that the cause survived under Probate Code section 573. The claim is barred by the provisions of the California Tort Claims Act (Gov. Code, § 810 et seq.), particularly section 845, which states: "Neither a public entity nor a public employee is liable for failure to establish a police department or otherwise provide police protection service or, if police protection service is provided, for failure to provide sufficient police protection service."


Nor is it just courts of the 1960's/70's..

Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Rock_v._Gonzales

During divorce proceedings, Jessica Gonzales, a resident of Castle Rock, Colorado, obtained a restraining order against her husband on June 4, 1999, requiring him to remain at least 100 yards from her and their three daughters except during specified visitation time. On June 22, at approximately 5:15 pm, her husband took possession of the three children in violation of the order. Gonzales called the police at approximately 7:30 pm, 8:30 pm, 10:10 pm, and 12:15 am on June 23, and visited the police station in person at 12:40 am on June 23, 1999. However, the police took no action, despite the husband's having called Gonzales prior to her second call to the police and informing her that he had the children with him at an amusement park in Denver, Colorado. At approximately 3:20 am on June 23, 1999, the husband appeared at the Castle Rock police station and instigated a fatal shoot-out with the police. A search of his vehicle revealed the corpses of the three daughters, whom the husband had killed prior to his arrival.
...
The Court's majority opinion by Justice Antonin Scalia held that enforcement of the restraining order was not mandatory under Colorado law; were a mandate for enforcement to exist, it would not create an individual right to enforcement that could be considered a protected entitlement under the precedent of Board of Regents of State Colleges v. Roth; and even if there were a protected individual entitlement to enforcement of a restraining order, such entitlement would have no monetary value and hence would not count as property for the Due Process Clause.

Justice David Souter wrote a concurring opinion, using the reasoning that enforcement of a restraining order is a process, not the interest protected by the process, and that there is not due process protection for processes.


Frankly, the only time the courts have enforced a legal duty to protect is when one in police custody. It might be new knowledge to some, but it's always been true.

Nitram

(22,768 posts)
24. I certainly hope they will be charged. Seems that under Florida law, and the law in every state,
Sat Jul 22, 2017, 12:12 PM
Jul 2017

you can't be charged for not saving someone. I assume that is because you can't be expected too risk you life for someone else. But not reporting a death IS a crime, and they should be tried and punished to the full extent of the law. If not, psychopathic teenagers everywhere will have a license to kill (just push someone in and watch them drown).

LisaL

(44,972 posts)
31. Well, of course that would be a crime.
Sun Jul 23, 2017, 11:02 PM
Jul 2017

In the particular case we are discussing, the man who drowned went into water by himself (there is a surveillance tape of him doing so). Apparently he argued with one of his relatives, then left home and went into the pond.

 

NobodyHere

(2,810 posts)
32. Read the post I responded too
Sun Jul 23, 2017, 11:06 PM
Jul 2017

which the person said, "If not, psychopathic teenagers everywhere will have a license to kill (just push someone in and watch them drown)."

LisaL

(44,972 posts)
40. There is a surveillance video of the man voluntarily entering the pond.
Mon Jul 24, 2017, 07:15 PM
Jul 2017

So you don't have to speculate without any basis.

blueinredohio

(6,797 posts)
26. If they do get charged the media should be there
Sun Jul 23, 2017, 08:37 PM
Jul 2017

and show their faces on t.v. or in the newspaper oops didn't mean to get them in the picture was doing a story about the courthouse sorry

 

TheDebbieDee

(11,119 posts)
27. When I hear about bizarre behavior like this, I wonder if the criminals
Sun Jul 23, 2017, 09:01 PM
Jul 2017

have high levels of lead in their blood. Not that they shouldn't be punished for their behavior. I'm just curious as to how many folks are suffering from lead poisoning from their drinking water...

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
34. Blame Hollywood, seriously.
Mon Jul 24, 2017, 12:42 AM
Jul 2017

How many "funny" teen movies feature plots or subplots based on treating deceased family members like inconvenient luggage? Answer: a lot. So this kind of thing doesn't surprise me at all. These kids might well be perfectly normal 95% of the time, but at this particular moment decided they were going to be hi-lariously callow techno-teens like in the movies. Not so funny anymore is it.

 

HockeyMom

(14,337 posts)
39. This is getting to be a circular agrument
Mon Jul 24, 2017, 06:24 PM
Jul 2017

If the police have no duty to save anyone, then those teenagers calling 911 is moot.

Latest Discussions»Latest Breaking News»The Latest: Teens may fac...